Talk:Kim Jong Il

Birth Date

The Korean Wikipedia article on Kim gives his birth date one year later, Feb 16 1942. Which is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quelcrime (talk • contribs) 19:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

We should not be referring to Kin Jong Il as Kim! Kim is his last name. To clearly distinguish between him and his father we should use his first name or full name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.57.98 (talk) 14:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. People are often referred to by last name only; in the talk page of an article about Kim Jong-Il, I don't think that there's going to be too much confusion.Anglican 07:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The present article claims Mr Kim was born February 16, 1941, while his official biography (Kim Jong Il - Short History. Pyongyang: Foreign Languages Publishing House, 1998, p. 1), claims he was born one year later.

BBC News clame that state biographers wrote of his birth to have been 'foretold by a swallow, and heralded by the appearance of a double rainbow over the mountain and a new star in the heavens', however they do not give their source, and it is not written anywhere in Short History. I've left it in the article, but does anyone know of the original source?Timephoenix (talk) 03:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not stated in any official source that I've found (I read the Short History as well, the article appears to make the claim that the story is in the book, most people simply browsing wouldn't look at the link) theres a lot of misinformation about North Korea, it's quite clearly totalitarian but some of the stuff is as exaggerated as what the DPRK says about the west. I think that we should remove that section of the article unless someone does find an official DPRK source-Ted Fox 16:09, 30 April 2008

Personal Life

What sources were used on the Personal Life section of this article? T.Stokke 06:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

They are all cited. what's the question? Icactus 17:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, strange it did not show at school.

I don't understand a part in the article. It goes, "a Russian emissary who traveled with Kim across Russia by train, told reporters that Kim had live lobsters air-lifted to the train every day which he ate with silver chopsticks - historically used in the Chinese Imperial Palace to detect poison". Do silver chopsticks actually detect poison or am I reading it wrong? --Thai H. Nguyen 22:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

There is been no conclusive scientific studies on the subject of silver chopsticks and poison. Kim Jong-Il probably just get a kick out of acting like royalty of some medieval hamlet kingdom...oh wait, he IS one.

-Roswell Crash Survivor 05:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Today, Kim Jong Il spends most of his time watching Western movies and drinking expensive wine while ninety five percent of his country starves to death on the streets. Kim Jong Il controlls all of the information which enters his country, although its citizens are to oppressed by him to own televisions or radio's anyway. Meanwhile, Il tells his people that he is the greatest leader the world has ever seen, while he blames all of his countries problems and corruption on Western countries. His people believe him because they have no access to any information, as it is all controlled and censored by Jong Il to make him look great, and other countries to look evil. Thus, Jong Il is able to keep the popular support of his people by killing anyone who threatens his authority. Kim Jong-Il is the worlds most brutal dictator, is half insane, and the worst part is, his own people dont even know it, yet they continue to starve. Thes people are under the rule of an oppressive dictator who lacks basic political, economical and ethical knowledge to run a country. The people suffer because of him and don't realize it because their minds are built on the whims of Jong Il's society. It is sickening for the rest of the world to witness Jong Il's evil.

I agree with you. Also, you keep referencing this demon as "Il", its "Kim" and "Jong Il" is the name.

Evidence he spends most of his time watching movies and drinking wine? Evidence 95% of people starve to death on the streets? I think this whole section should be rewritten or deleted. Might as well add a section describing how he eats small children.. 88.114.230.208 (talk) 12:09, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Early political career

Early in March a whole section was removed by a vandal and never restored. Can the information be worked back in? Gazpacho 08:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I've just restored it - i think that the other sections removed were re-organized afterwards - actually they were split in two sub-sections. Thanks for the alert.--JForget 21:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

official assassination attempts

Mr Kim's itinerary was frequently altered for security reasons, he said, which probably saved his life. The owner of the mobile telephone found at the scene had been traced and questioned, according to the official, but it was unclear what had happened to him. It would not have been the first assassination attempt against Mr Kim, who succeeded his father Kim Il Sung as leader in 1994. At the end of the 1990s, a plan hatched by a number of Korean army generals was uncovered, and the conspirators arrested. After they were interrogated, the generals were executed in Pyongyang's 150,000-capacity May Day Stadium. Petrol was poured over them and set alight, burning them alive.

[1] --HanzoHattori 09:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Corrections and updates needed

Someone please correct the following (I'm not good at English):

"In 2002, Kim Jong-il's government admitted to having produced nuclear weapons since the 1994 agreement. Kim's regime argued the secret production was necessary for security purposes - citing the presence of United States owned nuclear weapons in South Korea and the new tensions with the U.S. under President George W Bush.[24]"

1) NK allegedly amitted not "having produced nuclear weapons", but secretly running a highly enriched uranium (HEU) program.

2) *Allegedly* admitted. According to Washington. Pyongyang denied such an admission. Moreover, even U.S. do not seem to be very sure of their own claim anymore:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/news_view.asp?newsIdx=3088595.

There is also an opinion that the "admission" is either a total fabrication on the part of US, or a misunderstanding due to a bad translation from Korean of what the North's official said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15265432/site/newsweek/page/0/

"There is some evidence that the Bush administration was seeking to manipulate intelligence on North Korea. During a visit to Pyongyang by lead negotiator James Kelly in October 2002, he presented what U.S. officials described as "proof" that the North had a secret uranium-enrichment program, undercutting Clintonite claims that Kim was adhering to a pledge not to advance his nuclear program. Bush officials later said the North Koreans had confessed. But diplomats now say that was a translation error. (Kelly could not be reached for comment.)" Ri hwa won 20:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

It certainly does look like we need a better source on this. By the way, your English is very good, so don't be shy about editing the article yourself. --Reuben 22:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture / fictional portrayals section

I'd like to start a discussion as to whether this article should have a section of this nature. There are similar sections in the following articles: Tony Blair and Personality and image of Queen Elizabeth II. Adolf Hitler, George Bush and Julius Caesar go one better and get whole articles devoted to this subject - Adolf Hitler in popular culture, Fictionalized portrayals of George W. Bush and Cultural depictions of Julius Caesar. Would such a section be appropriate for this article too? SP-KP 08:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, as there's been no comment for or against, I've added a section along these lines. Please add any further portrayals you come across. SP-KP 19:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There was such a section in the past, and it was removed because it didn't add anything useful to the article. The consensus was that Kim Jong-il is significant to Team America: World Police, but that the movie is not significant in an article on Kim Jong-il. In fact, the process was: people add pop culture references to the article; the list grows long and indiscriminate; it gets forked off as a separate "in popular culture" article; then that article gets deleted as not notable or encyclopedic. You can read more about this phenomenon and the point of view against such lists at Wikipedia:in popular culture. --Reuben 23:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Date of birth / contradiction

This article states that Soviet records state that Kim Jong-il was born on 1942-02-16, but Vyatskoye, Khabarovsk Krai states that the same records state that he was born on 1941-02-16. I don't know which date is the correct one. 1942-02-16 is the official date of birth (according to the official biography of the Dear Leader), but that is obviously not a reliable source. (Stefan2 21:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC))

Dear Leader is a glorious man, all detractors must be put to death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.23.229.250 (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no contradiction unless one fails to distinguish actual birth date and place from politically necessary birth date and place. --Bejnar (talk) 05:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

biography, it doesn't say he was born at 6

btw... in the wiki article it says the official biography states the guy was born 6 o clock on a mountain. I went to check out that biography and it doesn't seem to make reference to the time.

http://www.korea-dpr.com/library/103.pdf

(use the Find ability on your browser, search for the word "born")

I can't quote the relevant section because the Great Leader has put password protection on his bio pdf ¬¬

124.171.22.82 14:41, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a short biograpy at [2], and that one doesn't mention any time of the day either. (Stefan2 21:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC))

Song Hye-rim / contradiction

In this article it says that Song Hye-rim died in 2003. However, at Song Hye-rim it says that she died in 2002. I don't know which is the correct year. (Stefan2 18:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

"Fictional portrayals"

Honestly, does that reference deserve inclusion? I'm sure there are MANY similar portrayals of Kim in popular comedy. What makes this one special? Should be removed. WiccaWeb 04:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hair style

Why does he shave his left and right side of his hair? And why did the South-Korean president Roh Moo-hyun do the same thing when he visited North-Korea this week? Is it a Korean thing?

Picture example: http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/51/513/513966/korea_1191422519.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.108.220.136 (talk) 20:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Doubt it. This is most likely a big coincidence involving male-pattern baldness rather than Korean tradition. I'd look into it though, as that's just an assumption, I may be incorrect. 172.141.243.248 13:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe make him look taller —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.120.4.158 (talk) 06:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Vanity Hotel Project

No mention of the ridiculous Pyong Hotel project? It's a massive, unbelievably hideous skyscraper hotel his regime started building back in the 80s - 100+ stories tall. It was never finished (although the structure does indeed reach 100 stories) and it towers over the capital city in all it's "splendor". Hundreds of millions were wasted on this unusable mess and it really drives home how wasteful he has been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.30.163.16 (talk) 13:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

sure, lets add that valuable piece of information and stock it up into the already huge criticism section, i mean, who really needs to know about how the goverment of north korea has changed since he is in charge?.200.83.57.71 22:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a separate page for the Ryugyong Hotel, which is what I assume you're referring to. [3] Lowell33 23:01, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've heard, that he likes anime and furry art

Is it true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.50.233.128 (talk) 20:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I highly doubt that he's a Furry, you can't even get internet access in North Korea except in military bases in the DMZ, and if he was a furry, given his personality cult, don't you think he'd be announcing it to each and everyone on Fur Affinity or something?-Ted Fox 16:14, 30 April 2008

Kim Jong-il's name

Why is it that the English Wikipedia calls him Kim Jong-il, but the Russian Wikipedia calls him Ким Чён Ир (Kim Chyon Ir)? I was also listening to a North Korean marching song that I found from a Russian site (Песня о Полководце Ким Чен Ире), and it does sound like they say Kim Chyon Ir when they reach the refrains. Is that how his name is pronounced in Korean? Rebelyell2006 (talk) 05:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There are several formalized schemes for Romanizing Korean, but what's actually used in practice is an unpredictable (and often very unhelpful) mish-mash. The spelling Kim Jong-il doesn't follow any particular scheme other than established usage. By contrast, there is a well-established and consistent scheme for rendering Korean names into Cyrillic, but it's not designed to directly correspond to Korean pronunciation. The Ки and Чё in Russian are more aspirated than they should be in Korean, and the н should really be an -ng sound like in English "sing". That sound isn't used in Russian. The distinction between l and r depends on what comes next, so it could go either way. The vowel in Jong is not represented very well either way, as Russian and English both use similar sounds but don't have a distinct way to write them. --Reuben (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Strange, because I was under the impression that his name was spelled Kym Chong-Il. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.171.218 (talk) 00:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kimjongil-wave.jpg

Image:Kimjongil-wave.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Propaganda

Unless they are used satirically (which is another problem), the segments about Jong-il's hobbies should be removed. At least there should be a disclaimer saying something about the fact that the information is retrieved from propaganda intended to boost his image. --66.214.90.232 (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Extent of Cult of Personality

I note that there are few examples of the actual extent of Kim's cult of personality. Exactly how many tributes, films, poems, books, etc are devoted to North Korea's despot? Calibanu (talk) 00:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Calibanu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Johttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-ilng-il —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.252.28.197 (talk) 02:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

4th Largest Standing Army

The article claims that the NK army is 4th largest in the world. This contradicts the linked page which says it is the 5th 163.1.99.133 (talk) 15:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Big deal, 4th largest or not, when they fight, their troops are an easy target because they always move so close together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.171.218 (talk) 00:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Has anybody else come across rumors about his death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.167.144.138 (talk) 19:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture

So, who decided to use the glamor shot? Didn't realize Wikipedia had been infiltrated by Juchists, along with every other totalitarian ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.222.149.167 (talk) 15:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Lead section hatnote

There are a number of disputes amongst historians in regard to events in Kim Jong-il's life. These relate to his alleged cult of personality, which is discussed here.

I think it is possible to incorporate this into the lead without using a self-reference. Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Public domain and copyright?

Why is Kim Jong-il's official portrait in the public domain while Kim Il-sung's official portrait is copyrighted?

Thank you.

71.121.81.9 (talk) 09:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Lack of a criticism section

Nearly every public figure with a Wikipedia page has a Criticism section yet there is only passing mention of the extensive human rights abuses perpetuated by Kim Jong-Il. This information should be included in this article because it is a defining characteristic of Kim Jong-Il's rule and a fairly large component of his job performance as a world leader. --Ambigera 22:10, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Death rumours

Is this worth noting? http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/north-koreas-kim-died-in-2003-and-was-replaced-by-lookalike-says-waseda-profesor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.164.80.71 (talk) 16:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, no. The article itself would struggle to pass muster here. It itself notes that claims are made without citing sources. I also struggle to see how a spy satellite in orbit could possibly be used to measure the height of a person from above. Trigonometry is all well and good but even allowing for that the margin of error in such calculations would vastly exceed the claims being made. It's an interesting article, but in much the same way on on whether Elvis lives in Beijing. Srushe (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, even if correct, height measurements are not evidence. Different shoes could account for that easily. Esn (talk) 06:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well someone has added it. I don't agree that it should be there but I've left it. I have added some requests for better citations and information though. Srushe (talk) 21:02, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The existence of a notable rumour is strongly sourced now, there's even a best selling Japanese book on the topic. So long as the article makes it clear that this is but published rumour and speculation, there are few worries about carrying this in the text. This said, the bit about satellite photos is way thin without further sourcing and I wouldn't suggest putting that in the article. Moreover, this could all be clever disinformation by the wiley Kim and/or others. Gwen Gale (talk) 06:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with how "strongly sourced" it is is that there's really just one source. And even that one source is drawing conclusions based on heresay and indirect evidence. I don't know if it should be included or not, but the current paragraph seems to be somewhat large if it's all just based on a single person's speculation. (undue weight and all that) 209.90.134.131 (talk) 05:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There are three sources cited, not one. Yes, rumours are hearsay. The hearsay is notable (there's a best selling book in Japan, which is apparently what you describe as "one" source) and the notable hearsay is described as such, rumours. Given the secrecy about Kim, it's hardly undue weight to note best-selling speculation about him. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Erm... no... just one source. News articles quoting Shigemura's theory, and Shigemura's book, do not count as multiple sources. And the undue weight concerns the length of the section speculating about his death. If someone is notably forwarding the theory that he's dead other than Shigemura, and I'm just missing it, then by all means, feel free to tell me where I'm wrong.

However, as a secondary note, the more recent theories that he may simply be ill are also in the same section.

Because that section is now addressing his health in more ways than just the assumption of his death, perhaps the title of the section should be changed to "Current Health". Additionally, it may solve both problems to change the title and combine the two paragraphs so it doesn't look like two separate entries (and doesn't put so much focus on a single person's theory) 209.90.134.118 (talk) 18:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

David Letterman says he has a brother named Mentally Ill

He doesn't call him mentally ill.