Talk:Sonata form

I question the use of the word "subject" to describe themes. "Subject" is best reserved for fugue.

In the case of sonata-allegro form, it is better to describe the main ideas as "Main Theme" and "Subordinate Theme" rather than "first subject" and "second subject" as in this article. The problem with the terms used in this article becomes apparent when one needs to label subsidiary theme that are part of a group. For example, the 2nd subordiate theme would, in the terminology of the current article, be described as the "second subject of the second subject group." Accordingly I have switched terms.

Well, "subject" is pretty widely used in the literature, but OK. I don't really like "main theme" and "subordinate theme" because I don't think the terms are very widely used in this context, and also because the suggestion that one theme is "subordinate" to the other is midleading. If you don't like "subject", how about "group"? That's pretty widely used, and (referring to your above example) something like "the second theme in the second group" is pretty clear, I think. --Camembert

"Theme group" is better. It still requires such awkward locutions as "the second theme of the second theme group." How much more elegant is "second subordinate theme?" The use of "principal" (or main) and "subordinate" themes is also widespread in the literature (e.g. Wallace Berry & Leon Stein). If the objection is that "subordinate" implies inferiority to the main theme or subservience to it, the proper interpretation is this: the subordinate theme derives its existence from the main theme. If there were no 1st theme, there would be no 2nd. Therefore, the designation "second theme" is dependent upon there being a first and is therefore subordinate to it. In some instances this subordination involves a literal contrapuntal derivative (as in Beethoven Op. 57 'Appassionata' 1st mvt). In other cases it is a figural or thematic correlation. At the least, the 2nd theme is subordinate if only by virtue of its order (one meaning of "subordinate" as per the OED, although admittedly rare).