Talk:Drapetomania

Categorization

In discussion on Category talk:Mental illness diagnosis by DSM and ISCDRHP, I've suggested that this article does not belong in that newly-created category. I'm suggesting "Former psychiatric disorders" as a category to hold it instead. Any thoughts? -Willmcw July 9, 2005 16:49 (UTC)

I've just filed it under "mental illness", "pseudoscience" and "racism". Samuel Cartwright really was a piece of shit^H^H^H^Hwork. -- The Anome 10:41, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I really didn't want to have to create a new category just for this article. Willmcw 10:48, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Please note that there is a misspelled entry Draptomania in the US Slavery section which I have removed and simply redirected to this more complete and correct one (the old one offered no information this one did not). Cheridy Sept 30, 2005

Anti-Psychiatry

What does this have to do with Anti-Psychiatry? Drapetomania was coined before psychiatry as we know it even existed. -Willmcw 20:50, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

yes, but it (according to some people) may prove that what is now termed "mental illness" is in reality just behaviour at odds with current socio-cultural values, in exactly the same way that escaping slaves in mid 19th-century North America were not behaving as they "should" do and were therefore identified as having a mental illness. --86.135.181.94 14:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Which "some people" are we talking about? -Willmcw 14:33, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with 86.135.181.94, although at first I didn't. Drapetomania was an example of how science & medicine may be abused in order to enforce particular attitudes and behaviours. Anti-Psychiatry certainly came along much later, but it's talking about exactly the same thing, so it makes sense to link it in the "See Also" section.--Pariah 04:17, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Significance

While undoubtedly a spectacular example of bad science, the article does not state how influential the theory was. How many doctors actually make a diagnosis of drapetomania? How quickly did serious rebuttals begin to be published? How late did anyone believe this nonsense? If the answers are (say) "lots", "decades later" and "1927", this is an important article. If the answers are "just Dr Cartwright", "the following week" and "the following week" then it's just a piece of trivia. jnestorius^(talk) 04:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a good new source, perhaps you'll find the ansers there: "DRAPETOMANIA A Disease Called Freedom". -Will Beback 06:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Dubious toe claim

I've added the dubious tag to the toe claim because:

• Given Cartwright's paternalistic attitude it seems implausible he would prescribe it.
• Szasz is not unbiased; besides, almost everyone is somewhat biased against racists. Szasz is, anyway, not a primary source.
• It seems like all sources regarding drapetomania are actually secondary to one paper published by Cartwright.

My guess is that toes of runaway slaves were amputated, perhaps as "treatment" for drapetomania, but that Cartwright himself never prescribed this. Anyway, perhaps I will check local libraries for the Szasz book, and try to find his source. No promises though. –Αναρχία 22:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the sentence. Another possibility was that Cartwright mentioned this in his book, with the point being that it was sometimes done but if slaveowers were to use his "medical" procedures they would not have to do that. Anyway the sentence in the article did not even assert any relationship with toe-cutting to Cartwright. Steve Dufour 13:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The reference just added, while I comend anyone for trying, is not to psychiatry

Please try to learn what psychiatry is. The only time the word "psychiatry is used in your reference is in the following quote:

Dr. Benjamin Rush, the "father" of American psychiatry

I fear that does not support anything about the connection of Drapetomania with modern day diagnostic classification, which was the issue. But thanks for trying. --Mattisse 04:11, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect. And Malik, please read this. I added a reference to the beginning sentence which mentioned the subject was a psychiatric diagnosis, which it indeed was. Mattisse, you're referring to a different reference that I added. Psychiatry is the branch of medicine dealing with the mind and mental illness. While certainly saying it is a medical diagnosis makes sense, "psychiatric" is more specific and since another user added it in the first place, I am inclined to agree with him/her. I am possibly going to revert this, but would like Malik's opinion first. I agree with the deletion of the Oppositional Defiant, but not this. - Cyborg Ninja 04:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you identified the source a little more specifically than "the reference just added", since 7 references have been added today. I have restored "psychiatric" (in place of "medical") because psychiatry is the "branch of medicine dealing with the ... mind", and drapetomania was "a disease of the mind" (Cartwright). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Drapetomania has been brought to the attention of the Medicine deletion project

Although I withdrew the AFD because of the instant harassment and attacking, Drapetomania has been brought to the attention of the Medical deletion project cleaning up false and misleading articles placed under a medical category as this one was. It will be monitored, and returned to AFD if false and misleading material purporting to be medical, psychiatric or psychological is returned to the article.

I might be helpful if, not only did you learn something about psychology and psychiatry before you start adding terms, you learned something about the history of psychiatry and psychology. Psychology as a formal field distinct from psychiatry did not exist until World War II. Psychiatry in the 1800's was philosophically based and not scientifically based, with few exceptions such as Wilhelm Wundt. So you are mixing apples and oranges. Regards, --Mattisse 13:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please stop your personal crusade. You are clearly assuming bad faith among other Wikipedia users and stirring up problems. I don't mind you bringing this to the attention of the Medicine deletion project (though you are pretending the project is something it is not), but you are causing countless problems related to this article by trying to provide a point about pseudoscience. What's funny is that Drapetomania is included in the Anti-Psychiatry article itself. Are you going to crusade about that as well? - Cyborg Ninja 14:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove questionable source tags without correcting the problem as you have just done

Citing a cancer website does not prove anything about psychiatry. Please try to maintain a professional standard. --Mattisse 14:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Apparently you think a prestigious medical university is not a reliable source, Mattisse? If this keeps up, I'll need to call a review. - Cyborg Ninja 15:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

A cancer institute is not a reliable psychiatric source. --Mattisse 15:22, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for adding another reference to questionable statement - please stop referring to my edits as bad faith edits User:Cyborg Ninja

You are setting up a very unfortunate atmosphere here. My original AFD statement was not even a recommendation to delete. It was open ended. Yet you choose to attack me rather than focus on the article. --Mattisse 15:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I have never "attacked" you -- merely refuted your false statements and tried to improve this article. AfD stands for Articles for Deletion -- you know very well that it is only used to nominate articles for deletion. You cannot use it as a "cleanup" tag would be used. That is against Wikipedia policy. - Cyborg Ninja 23:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Political abuses of psychiatry - nonexistent article & nonexistent category

You have link a nonexistent article under See also. You have also categorized the article in a nonexistent category. Perhaps it would help if you read through the AFD on the recently deleted Psychiatric abuse to understand why this is inappropriate. It is important for you to have an overview of the issues on Wikipedia before you start creating articles and categories. --Mattisse 15:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Some sources to add?

First appearance in The Lancet, courtesy of Google Books.

Another book: "Nowadays, drapetomania does not ring a bell for most people. It did in the nineteenth century, at least in the United States. Official Western medicine then recognised drapetomania, the tendency of slaves to run away from their owners, as a disease that commonly affected black persons."

Another book on the history of fugue states (now part of the DSM-IV), suggesting that its slow reception in the US may have been due to drapetomania being a "predecessor diagnosis" that would be preferred over that of fugue.

This is an appearance of the term in the journal "History of Psychiatry", but it requires a subscription so I don't know how relevant it is.

Appearance in a review at Notre Dame Philosophical Reviews, where it is mentioned as part of the "history of psychiatry".

This piece in the American Journal of Psychiatry Schizophrenia Bulletin by noted psychiatrist Thomas Szasz in which drapetomania is part of a list of historical diagnoses used by psychiatrists for abusive purposes.

Here it is briefly discussed in the Handbook of Relational Diagnosis and Dysfunctional Family Patterns (a psychiatric text) as part of the chapter "Cultural Considerations in Diagnosis".

New York Times article: "Bigotry as Mental Illness Or Just Another Norm"

Another book result.

I agree that this should belong to Category:Pseudoscience (that's how it's viewed today), but also Category:Psychiatry as these sources show it belonged to that field in 19th C. USA and was actively being used as a diagnosis, as opposed to being the fringe theory of an isolated individual. If that category's restricted to current Psychiatry, then Category:History of mental health and Category:Obsolete medical theories are options which it should be under anyway. Thomjakobsen 15:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Psychiatric abuse. I wish the talk pages for the deleted article were available. Extensive discussions took place on the view you are presenting above. For example, Thomas Szasz is not considered a neutral, unbiased source as he is part of the Anti-psychiatry movement. Also there is an Category:Anti-psychiatry. Such categories as Category:Pseudoscience, Category:Obsolete medical theories etc. are fine. Please provide an unbiased third party source showing that this diagnosis was employed as a psychiatric diagnosis in the 1800s by the "psychiatric establishment". Also, what was the psychiatric establishment then, as those were the days of Freud and Jung? So far,it appears it is one medical doctor's idiosyncratic thought that has captured the imagination of many people today and they like reading about his thinking. No one denies that his views existed as pseudoscience or a "supposed" diagnosis. Is there verification that he was a psychiatrist?

...examples of prejudice cloaked in pseudo-science are regrettably common in the history of psychiatric medicine, common enough to provoke denials that there is such a thing as mental illness (e.g., Szasz 1987)

--Mattisse 16:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not "presenting a view" — these are the sources I found during a search. I'm not cherry-picking them to support a particular viewpoint, simply trying to establish whether there is enough coverage to support a balanced, well-sourced article. I didn't have a prior opinion on this, I just saw the AFD and the edit-warring over sources and decided to go look for some better ones. I'm hoping they can be used to improve the article. It's clearly a topic for which a range of sources exist, and, being historically documented, is not inherently POV (in the way that the "Psychiatric abuse" article was).

The list reflects what I found. Although Szasz would not be considered a reliable main source, he is nevertheless a notable figure and so his references to this diagnosis would merit coverage.

The other sources are varied, I would ask you to click on the links and check them out before dismissing the whole list on the basis of a single source. In particular, the Handbook of Relational Diagnosis... is a handbook for practicing psychiatrists and so is completely unrelated to the anti-psychiatry movement; it discusses Drapetomania as an example of how cultural factors can distort mental health diagnosis — in fact, it's given as the main historical US example of that tendency. The source shows that modern psychiatry recognizes this topic as being of relevance to current practice.

Another book is on the history of the diagnosis of fugue conditions. Again, I'm assuming in the absence of contrary indications that this is a reliable secondary source and is unrelated to the anti-psychiatry movement; it notes Drapetomania as being historically significant because its prevalent diagnosis in the US may have been a factor in the slow adoption of fugue-related diagnoses (nowadays covered in the DSM-IV under dissociative disorders).

The NYT article quotes a clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School (presumably independent of the anti-psychiatry movement) using Drapetomania as a prime example of how the classification of psychopathology can be influenced by cultural factors; he's actually calling for racism to be classified as a disorder, so really he's at the opposite end of the scale to Szasz. This shows that it's not just an anti-psychiatry topic and that it has current relevance.

As for, "what was the psychiatric establishment then, as those were the days of Freud and Jung?" Those two don't come into prominence until the early 1900s, half a century later. The American Psychiatric Association was founded in 1844 (under a different name), but the medical treatment of mental illness can be traced back to at least the 13th century with the founding of Bedlam, the first dedicated psychiatric hospital. The "psychiatric field" at that time would consist of all medical doctors engaged in the treatment of mental illness; the term isn't restricted to the 20th century despite the growth of the field as a specialist branch of medicine in that period. All the sources I've seen so far recognize this as part of the history of psychiatry; it may have been geographically confined to the US or even to the Southern states (the historical overview-type sources indicate somewhere between the two), and it may not have lasted very long (the American Civil War was just around the corner, so the problem of slave psychiatry didn't have much time left), but it's still very much psychiatry by any definition, however flawed in retrospect. If there were a "History of psychiatry" category as there is for psychology, neuroscience, etc. then that might be a more appropriate classification than just "Psychiatry", to reflect the fact that it's not current psychiatry. Thomjakobsen 18:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Thomjackobsen's last paragraph above especially. I have been trying to show that while the subject matter is not currently used in psychiatry (which was clear even in the old versions of the page), it was still a psychiatric diagnosis. However flawed it may be, it is still of historical matter and I believe Wikipedians have made several steps to insure that nobody is misled to believe that it is currently diagnosed. After all, when I see the term "scientific racism," I tend to doubt that it's current psychiatric theory. - Cyborg Ninja 00:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the POV tag

I removed the tag as another editor has provided an appropriate introduction that adds some context. The article, in my opinion, still gives undue weight to the opinions of a long discredited diagnosis proposed by one man in the form of long, unanalyzed quotes.

This article with the long quotes is long than Samuel A. Cartwright's biography. Perhaps this article should be merged with his biography. --Mattisse 15:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's very white of you. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 17:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Humm. Does that mean I must become white? --Mattisse 00:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the block quotes and included a few more secondary references to hopefully improve the article's balance. Addhoc 13:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge to Cartwright's article

It seems to me that the concept of Drapetomania only existed in relationship to Cartwright, and he is mainly known only for that. It seems logical to merge the two articles. Steve Dufour 19:28, 6 October 2007 (UTC)