Talk:White people

older discussions may be found here Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, [4/]

Discussion

I have archived the previous discussion (playfully entitled 'Archive 4'). Discussion may now be resumed. Keep it clean and have fun, folks! :D User:Smith Jones 00:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)]

Sources

This article should not be about what is whiteness. It should be about providing good sources to answer that question as well as what subheadings are appropriate.71.74.209.82 02:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Caucasian

I thought Caucasian and white are the same.I must be wrong.----Always Gotta Keep It Real, Cute 1 4 u 02:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Turks are white, of course!

I am adding this part because it has been archived and I think the debate is interesting:

Turks are white, of course. I am reading this discussion about Turks.

1. Turks are white. In Europe, no one considers them as non-white. The problem is that we have here an ignorant American with extremenly stupid ideas.

2. People have been using here genetics to say who is white or not. Well here you have this Cavalli-Sforza map. According to his map, the map of an authority in genetic anthropology, Turks are not only white (white people do not only live in Europe), but they also are European, from a genetic point of view.

3. It is interesting, how acoording to his famous map, some Europeans, of whom there is no discussion here, fall outside the range that is considered European from a genetic point of view, like Finns and many Swedes and Norwegians.

4. If you can read a map, here you have it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cavalli-SforzaMap.jpg

Note how important areas of the Middle East also fall within the European genetic boundaries, colored in green.

And anyone who uses those white supremacist sources to argue who is white or not should be ban from here and I urge administrators to do so.

We are speaking about an anthropological issue, therefore only traditional anthropology or new genetic anthropology should be used if this article is to be taken seriously.

There's debate about who's considered "White". To use pseudo-scientifical and arbitrary grouping to define who is White is ridiculous. You don't cite any sources that claim Turks are White, so it remains a matter of opinion. )--Ryodox 20:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC The anonymous IP User argues that traditional and genetic anthropology prove that the Turks are white when they do not. The anonymous IP User's argument that anthropology only means traditional anthropology or genetics fails to include linguistic and cultural anthropology. Even if we constrict "anthropology" to the two fields anonymous IP User feels like acknowledging, we have disagreement which does not argue for anonymous IP User's point. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza has been noted for using a priori defined races, then grouping them genetically. Even though it is true that some populations are more genetically related than others, his races are nothing but his POV. Traditionally, many anthropologists have defined race differently. These two fields only illustrate that opinions on race vary, but do not prove that the Turks are White.--Dark Tichondrias 11:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC) Dark T, don't just make vague comments that I'm ignoring cultural anthropology, let's start bringing some intellectual content to the subject (god knows its past time to do that). Just how much have you studied the work of Cavalli-Sforza? You see, I actually studied Anthropology for four years at the University of Kentucky (and my focus among the four subdivisions was cultural anthropology - which makes your claim that I'm ignoring it curious) and have taken graduate level courses in the anthropology of race and medical anthropology. I'm eager to have someone with which to debate actual intellectual content on this subject. Maybe you are that person? If so, stop holding back. It will be good for the article, too, as actual intellectual content will require sources instead of unsupported claims as has been the overwhelming majority of what has appeared here in the talk page to date.71.74.209.82 22:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

We have been talking about who is white an who is not when we should be talking about what is verifiable and not - what sources can we point to to say what 'white' is. By that requirement, we need to be focused on sources as judged by Wikipedia standards and what they have to say about 'whiteness'. "According to his map, the map of an authority in genetic anthropology, Turks are not only white (white people do not only live in Europe), but they also are European, from a genetic point of view." I think you need to read the article you pointed to, not just look at the pretty pictures.71.74.209.82 21:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Rather than refute my assertion that genetics has nothing to do with the definition of white people, User:71.74.209.82 pulls a red herring about the amount of anthropology classes they have taken. Are you willing to tackle my assertion that genetics has nothing to do with who is white or sidestep the issue only to return to the Cavalli-Sforza map of genetics? Yes, I admit the Turks are genetically closely related to other Europeans, but your quoted statement that "they also are European, from a genetic point of view" confuses the cause. They are not European because they are closely genetically related. They are either European or non-European and they may also be closely genetically related.--Dark Tichondrias 20:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I didnt say that genetics did have anything to do with the definition of white people. I dont believe it does. So what am I suppossed to refute? I didnt say that Turks are European from a genetic point of view, Will you be done making up straw men anytime soon?71.74.209.82 20:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I did not claim that traditional and genetic anthropology prove that the Turks are white.71.74.209.82 17:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

For User:71.74.209.82 to deny their argument was that genetics determines who is white is absurd. They have spent a paragraph above and a paragraph in the archive stating the objectivity of human genetics and stating the genetic relationship between Turks and other Europeans. Since they are unable to defend my claim that genetics does not determine who is white, they claim they never made such an argument.--Dark Tichondrias 20:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

What have you been reading? I did not say that genetics determines who is white. Again, will you be finished posting straw men anytime soon? If you feel that I have, in fact, stated that genetics determines who is white, please quote and reference where I said that.71.74.209.82 20:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a quote User:71.74.209.82 added in her/his last post, "According to his map, the map of an authority in genetic anthropology, Turks are not only white (white people do not only live in Europe), but they also are European, from a genetic point of view." After reading this post by User:71.74.209.82, I interpreted this user to be arguing that genetics determines who is European. I feel this is a fair interpretation of the statement originally posted by User:71.74.209.82 and not an intentional straw man argument on my part.--Dark Tichondrias 03:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I just realized that the above statement was said by User:Pinball who did not sign their post. I apologize to User:71.74.209.82. Since User:Pinball did not sign their post, it looked like User:71.74.209.82 said User:Pinball's statement. This was not an intentional straw man of User:71.74.209.82's argument.--Dark Tichondrias 04:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

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Enough of personal opinons: Self research and just opinions are against Wiki rules.

1. If anyone has a reputable and verifiable source that Turks are not white bring it foward (I doubt very much you will find one).

2. Genetically speaking they fall withing the boundaries of the European genetic diversity range.

3. Genetically speaking other peoples, like Finns, peoples from the Baltic and many Scandinavians could be considered non-white, but, of course, Scandinavians are white, because whites are not restricted to Europeans, genetically speaking.

4. Anyway, it is interesting to see how peoples that have been traditionally seen as very pure whites, due to their very pale skins, like Scandinavians and peoples from the Baltic republics, are not only the least European, but also the least Caucasian, genetically speaking, and this is a fact that can be seen both in the Cavalli-Sforza map above and in the Macdonalds Hapmap:

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

I think people here are intelligent enough to read a map and to interpret haplogroup (genetic families) pies. Pinball.

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You need to provide sources for your points (1 through 4) as well71.74.209.82 17:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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My friend, the funny thing is that the only one who is providing reputable and verifiable sources here it is me. For the rest I only see opinions. Pinball.

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Looking over your list of points 1 through 4, I see no sources.71.74.209.82 17:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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Well, maybe you need to go back to elementary school. If you can read a map and if you can interpret a pie, to say that there are no sources is surrealistic. We need to be more serious here. Pinball.

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If you actually read his work instead of contenting yourself with looking at the pretty pictures, you would know that a great deal of his book discusses race as a flawed concept. If race is a flawed concept then race-based categories such as Caucasion are as well.71.74.209.82 17:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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Indeed I agree with you 100% on that, if you share Cavalli´s view. In fact genetic research is a blow in the face to traditional racial theories, but if people here are bent on discussing who is white or not on a racial and genetic basis (I think the term white is just a social and a racist concept in itself), then let us use the scientific data available and let us stop using unverifiable and unreputable opinions. Pinball.

The users who are bent on discussing genetic connections between Europeans and Middle Easterners are trying to increase the scope of white people to a larger extent than the common definition. The common defintion in the United States is that European descendents are Whites. The US Census Bureau is the only defintion which provides a more expansive defintion. A number of users in the archive discussion have been pushing genetics to expand white people, but those who argued against them have considered genetics of low relevance or irrelavant. For the users who have pushed that genetics determines who is white, User:Pinball's genetic data has a supportive audience. For the other arguers who have not equated White people with genetics, the data is once again of low relevance or irrelevant.--Dark Tichondrias 20:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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That's what I've been saying. So, where are your sources for saying that Turks -are- of the 'white' race (you did, after all, frame 'whiteness' in terms of genetics) given that the source you claimed goes to great lengths discussing how the white race doesn't exist?71.74.209.82 18:20, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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I am going to ask you the same question: Tell me of a single, reputable source that says that Turks are not white.

And if you claim that Turks are not white and cannot present a source to support it, then tell me please what race Turks are.

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Somehow, for some reason, your teachers way back in junior high failed to teach you something pretty important. It is up to the person who makes a positive assertion to prove their point. As you havent proven or even sourced it, theres no need to provide counter evidence. However, as race doesnt exist genetically (as per the AAA) and is socially constructed (again as per the AAA), whether or not Turks are white depends on who you ask and in which context they exist.71.74.209.82 20:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)