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{{DEFAULTSORT:Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb, Talk:}}
{{Kurds}}
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The [[Kurds]] are an [[Iranian peoples|Iranian-speaking]] ethnolinguistic group who have historically inhabited the mountainous areas to the south of [[Caucasus]] ([[Zagros]] and [[Taurus Mountains|Taurus]] mountain ranges), a geographical area collectively referred to as [[Kurdistan]].
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There are various hypotheses as to predecessor populations of the Kurds, such as the [[Carduchoi]] of Classical Antiquity, but these are speculative.
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The earliest known Kurdish dynasties under Islamic rule (10th to 12th centuries) are the [[Hasanwayhid]]s, the [[Marwanid]]s, the [[Shaddadid]]s, followed by the [[Ayyubid dynasty]] founded by [[Saladin]]. The [[Battle of Chaldiran]] of 1514 is an important turning point in Kurdish history, marking the alliance of Kurds with the Turks. The ''[[Sharafnameh]]'' of 1597 is the first account of Kurdish history. Kurdish history in the 20th century is marked by a rising sense of Kurdish nationhood focussed on the goal of an independent [[Kurdistan]] as scheduled by the [[Treaty of Sèvres]] in 1920. Partial autonomy was reached by [[Kurdistan Uyezd]] (1923-1926) and by [[Iraqi Kurdistan]] (since 1991), while notably in [[Turkish Kurdistan]], an armed conflict between the [[PKK]] and Turkish forces was ongoing 1984 to 1999, and the region continues to be unstable with renewed flaring up of violence in the 2000s.
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==Antiquity==
==Pie scene==
"The scene was never released to the general public and not included in the laserdisc and DVD releases of Dr. Strangelove." Then why is the source for the screenshot a DVD release of it? [[User:Recury|Recury]] 20:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
{{see|Carduchoi}}


{{Mergefrom|Origins of the Kurds|date=June 2008}}
With regard to the origin of the Kurds, it was formerly considered sufficient to describe them as the descendants of the [[Carduchi]], who opposed the [[Anabasis (Xenophon)|retreat of the Ten Thousand]] through the mountains in the [[4th century BC]]. Modern research traces them far beyond the period of the [[Greeks|ancient Greeks]].<ref name="autogenerated2">[http://2.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KU/KURDISTAN_COUNTRY_.htm K/KU/KURDISTAN COUNTRY .htm - LoveToKnow 1911<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>


They don't show the full scene on the DVD, just clips, which is where the screenshot would've come from[[Special:Contributions/142.162.147.130|142.162.147.130]] ([[User talk:142.162.147.130|talk]]) 10:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Although the Carduchi were subjugated by [[Cyrus the Great|Cyrus]], but they frequently rebelled against the [[Achaemenids]] and by the end of the 5th century BCE, during the reign of [[Artaxerxes II]], they were no longer under Persian control. According to [[Xenophon]], Carduchis even defeated a large Persian army sent against them and at times concluded treaties with Persian satraps.<ref>Xenophon, Anabasis 3.5.16 [http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/xenophon/anabasis3.htm]</ref>


== Possible misquotation ==
In [[401]] BCE, the 10,000 Greek mercenaries of Cyrus the Younger fought their way across the Carduchi's territory.<ref>[http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v4f8/v4f8a012.html Carduchi], Encyclopaedia Iranica</ref>
The Greeks chose the path in Carduchi's territory, partly because Carduchis were known to be the enemy of the Persians and were accustomed to defend themselves against the huge armies of the Persians.
Carduchis seem to have inhabited the mountains of ''Niphates'', not far from the source of [[Tigris]].<ref>''The Works of Sir Walter Raleigh'', Book III, Chapter X, pp. 215-216, By Sir Walter Raleigh, William Oldys, Thomas Birch, Oxford University Press, 1829.</ref>


I think the quote in the Plot section that states "ten to twenty million tops... depending on the breaks" is not what it actually says in the movie. I believe the last word should be "breeze" because a) the breeze will affect where the nuclear fallout will go, thus determining the casualty count b) breaks does not make sense in this context.
According to Xenophon, Carduchis were very warlike, living in the mountains and did not obey the Persian king. On one occasion, a royal Persian army of 120,000 men penetrated into Carduchi country and not one of them returned. The Greeks were later forced to fight their way through the Carduchi territory for seven days.<ref>Xenophon, ''The Anabasis, Or Expedition of Cyrus, and the Memorabilia of Socrates'', Translated by John Selby Watson, Maurice W. Mather and Joseph William Hewitt, 1854, 518 pp., Original from Harvard University, available in Digitized form pp.105-107, 116-117, Books III, IV.</ref> Despite this, it has been argued that Carduchian mountains in effect presented a refuge to the Greeks, who were trying to escape the attacks of the Persian armies, since the Persian [[cavalry]] could not act freely in the range of Carduchian mountains.<ref>James Rennell, ''Illustrations of the Expedition of Cyrus'', 1816, p.173</ref>


However, I can not find any way to confirm this. On this website (http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0055.html) it says "breaks". Perhaps the quote should be taken out altogether because it doesn't even really fit in to the rest of the paragraph.[[User:Lordofhyperspace|Lordofhyperspace]] 06:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In later times they passed successively under the sway of the [[Macedon]]ians, the [[Parthia]]ns, and [[Sassanid Empire|Sassanids]]. They were befriended by the [[Arsacid]] monarchs. [[Gotarzes]], whose name may perhaps be translated ''chief of the Gutii'', is traditionally believed to be the founder of the [[Goran Kurds|Guran]]s, the principal tribe of southern [[Kurdistan]]. His name and titles are preserved in a Greek inscription at [[Behistun]] near [[Kermanshah]].<ref>[http://3.1911encyclopedia.org/K/KU/KURDISTAN_PROV_.htm K/KU/KURDISTAN PROV .htm - LoveToKnow 1911<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> (For a map of the region during the Parthian era see:<ref>http://www.livius.org/a/1/maps/parthia_map.jpg</ref>)


:"Breaks" is a common American colloquialism meaning fortunes or luck, i.e., "man, that's a bad break you got there." Turgidson is saying that, if the US were lucky, they'd be looking at about 10 million dead; if they were unlucky, it'd be about 20 million dead. Luck, in this case, would be American bombs hitting on target and working as designed or better with few, if any, aircraft being shot down before reaching their targets, and the Soviet response getting minimal weapons past American air defenses, and those being inaccurate or defective; bad luck, of course, would be just the opposite.
:I don't see any real need to remove the quotation; it accurately shows both the claim being made by Turgidson, and Turgidson's way of thinking--that suffering ten to twenty million American dead would be acceptable losses in return for destroying the Soviet Union, and he's completely disconnected from the thought that these are real people, not just numbers on a sheet of paper. [[User:Rdfox 76|Rdfox 76]] 12:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
During the [[Seleucid]]/[[Macedon]]ian period, at least one major episode of resettlement of Kurds into western and southwestern [[Anatolia]] can be historically evidenced. The episode unfold sometime before [[181 BC]] when a large number of ''Cardaces'' are brought to settle in the strategic region of [[Lycia]] as a reservoir for military conscript and frontier guardsmen. It is likely that it was the Seleucids who settled these Kurds in Lycia for the stated military purposes (against the [[Ancient Rome|Romans]]), possibly in the last decades of the 3rd century BC.
For the year [[190 BC]], the Roman historian ''Livy'' records the presence of several thousand Kurdish soldiers fighting in the army of [[Antiochus III]]. The name "Cardaces" or "Cardacian" appears again in the Battle of ''Rhaphia'' in [[Palestine]] in spring of [[217 BC]] between the Seleucid King [[Antiochus III]] the Great and King [[Ptolemy IV Philopator]] of [[Egypt]].<ref>[http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/history/articles-his/his-articles-05.html]</ref><ref>The Seleucid Army: Organization and Tactics in the Great Campaigns, by Bezalel Bar-Kochva, Cambridge University Press, 1976, ISBN 0-521-20667-7, p.50 [http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN0521206677&id=Y_sAi7EkTLkC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22Cardaces%22&sig=aGrG-Q_Vd62mNnJtKwuC26QNtiE]</ref>


::Weird, I have never heard breaks used that way before. Thanks for the info. [[User:Lordofhyperspace|Lordofhyperspace]] 17:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A very early record of confrontation between Kurds and [[Sassanid Empire]] appears in a historical text named ''Book of the Deeds of Ardashir son of Babak''. In this book, the author explains the battle between [[Ardashir I]] and Madig king of the Kurds in the early 3rd century. Ardashir killed one thousand of the Kurds, while others were wounded and taken prisoners; and out of the Kurds that were imprisoned, he sent to [[Pars]] their king with his sons, brothers, children, his abundant wealth and property.<ref>[http://www.avesta.org/pahlavi/karname.htm] (Chapter 5)</ref>
:::"77. '''the breaks''', ''Informal''. the way things happen; fate: ''Sorry to hear about your bad luck, but I guess those are the breaks.''"[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/breaks] --[[User:Jtir|Jtir]] ([[User talk:Jtir|talk]]) 09:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
This battle has also been reported by the [[Persian people|Persian]] poet [[Firdawsi]] in his epic [[Shahnama]] (Volume 6, Chapters 61,71,72), in which the name of the Kurdish King appears as ''Mádík''.<ref>http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=06801286&pn=206#p206</ref><ref>http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=06801286&ct=71</ref><ref>http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=06801286&ct=72</ref>


== Which physicist? ==
In the spring of [[360]], [[Shapur II]] captured the city of ''Sangara'' (probably modern ''Shingar'' or ''Sinjar'' north-west of [[Mosul]]). From Singara, Shapur proceeded to attack the strong fort known indifferently as Phoenica or Bezabde on the east bank of the [[Tigris]]. It may be considered the representative of the modern Jezireh (''Cizre'' in south-eastern [[Turkey]]). It was much valued by [[Roman Empire|Rome]], was fortified in places with a double wall, and was guarded by three legions and a large body of [[Kurdish people|Kurdish]] archers. After a long siege, the wall was at last breached, the city taken, and its defenders indiscriminately massacred.<ref>[http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16167/16167-h/raw7a.htm The Seven Great Monarchies, by George Rawlinson, The Seventh Monarchy, Part A<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>


Re: "Possibly inspired by Edward Teller ("father" of the H-bomb) and Nicholas Metropolis (a wheelchair-bound physicist prone to outbursts of violent temper)" — I can find reference to Teller's difficult and volatile personality, but not of Metropolis. Can't find references or images to either of them being in a wheelchair. Perhaps this is the chairbound disguise of Clare Quilty, Sellers' ''[[Lolita]]'' character which prefigures Dr Strangelove in the film. Anyone? If there's no objection I'll clean it up later [[User:Julia Rossi|Julia Rossi]] 04:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Some Middle [[Persian language|Persian]] sources suggest Kurdish [[deportation]]s, particularly in the later Sassanid era. In addition to the deportation of a number of the [[Barzani]]s to the province of [[Carmania]] (modern [[Kerman]]), the [[Baloch|Baluchis]] were forced en masse into the far-off volcanic wastes of [[Makran]] (now [[Balochistan (region)|Balochistan]]) by Chosroes I Anoshervan ([[Khosrau I]]) (r. [[531]]-[[579]]) and Chosroes II Aparviz ([[Khosrau II]]) (r. [[591]]-[[628]]). The Sassanids further resettled the [[Kirkuk]] region with Neo-Elamite Khuzis from Mishan/Maysan region several times during the course of the third century AD.<ref name="autogenerated3">[http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/history/deportation.html]</ref>


There are lots of refs for Teller, and although afaik he didn't use a wheelchair, he did have a well-known walking difficulty (a problem from childhood with one leg). I don't know about Metropolis though. [[User:AdamSmithee|AdamSmithee]] 13:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
There is evidence of sun-worship among Kurds in the late [[Sassanid]] period. Sun-worshipping Kurds lived in the mountains of present-day northern [[Iraq]] in the fifth century CE. Also early 7th century references describe the rituals of sun worship and sacrifice of an [[ox]] in the region around [[Adiabene]] and sacrifice for [[demons]] in ''Beth Nuhadra'' among Kurds.<ref>Michael G. Morony, ''Iraq after the Muslim conquest'', Princeton University Press, 1984. p.384</ref>


Teller I can buy. Metropolis I cannot. Wikipedia's own article on Metropolis has him skiing regularly at age 70, an unlikely avocation for a wheelchair-bound scientist. Nor is there any indication of wheelchair use, or violent temper, in the links from the Wikipedia article -- including his Los Alamos obituary.[[User:128.165.87.144|128.165.87.144]] 22:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:Kurdish Kingdoms of Corduene-Sophene.jpg|thumb|200px|Kurdish Kingdoms of Corduene-Sophene (Kurdistan)]]
Classical histories of [[Polybios]]([[133]] BCE) and [[Strabo]]([[48]] CE) referred to the Kurds as ''Kurtioi'' (Κύρτιοι).
The Zelan Kurdish clan of [[Commagene]] ([[Adiyaman]] area), spread to establish in addition to the Zelanid dynasty of Commagene, the Zelanid kingdom of [[Cappadocia]] and the Zelanid empire of Pontus, all in [[Anatolia]]. These became Roman vassals by the end of the first century BC. Also the Kurdish Kingdom of [[Corduene]] became a province of the Roman Empire in [[66]] BC when [[Lucullus]] helped the ''Cordueni'' to throw off the yoke of [[Tigranes the Great|Tigranes]] who had earlier killed their king ''Zarbienus''. After defeating Tigranes, Lucullus built a memorial for ''Zarbienus'' and called him a friend and confederate of the Romans. Corduene remained under Roman control for four centuries until [[384]] AD. In the east the Kurdish kingdoms of ''Cortea'', [[Medes|Media]], ''Kirm'', and [[Adiabene]] had, by the first century BC, become confederate members of the Parthian Federation.<ref name="autogenerated1" /> [[Strabo]], the Greek geographer considered ''Gordys'' son of [[Triptolemus]], as the ancestor of ''Gordyaei''(Cordueni). He has an article on Gordiaea(Corduene), an ancient district thought to be part of Kurdistan.<ref>G.R. Driver, ''Studies in Kurdish History'', pp.491-511, Bulletin of the School of Oriental Studies, University of London, 1922.</ref>


I wonder if there is confusion between Nicholas Metropolis and Fritz Lang's movie Metropolis. That movie has a mad scientist, Rotwang, who also wears a glove. [[User:The Four Deuces|The Four Deuces]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 16:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
==Muslim conquests==


In the mid-1950s, von Neumann [one of the father's of game theory] left RAND to join the Atomic Energy Commission, a decision-making position which, as an immigrant, he felt extremely honored to hold. He did not serve for very long, as he became ill shortly after assuming the position (although the gravity of his condition was kept secret, and he remained publicly active for about a year). By the end of 1955, however, he was confined to a wheelchair and attended AEC meetings thus. This has been construed as (possible) proof that von Neumann was the model for Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove. Author William Poundstone has pondered:
In [[641]] CE, [[Arab]] commader ''Utba ibn farqad'' conquered Kurdish forts of [[Adiabene]]. Around this time, Kurds lived a partly sedentary life and raised sheep and cattle in the regions of ''Beth Begash'' and ''Beth Kartewaye'' above [[Irbil]] in Adiabene. In [[696]], Kurds joined the [[Khariji]] revolt near [[Hulwan]].<ref>Michael G. Morony, ''Iraq after the Muslim conquest'', Princeton University Press, 1984, p.266</ref>


Was the wheelchair-bound von Neumann a model for the title character of Stanley Kubrick's 1963 film Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb? Strangelove, 'Director of Weapons Research and Development,' is confined to a wheelchair. He speaks of having commissioned a defense study from the 'Bland Corporation.' As is often the case with satire, a number of models have been suggested (especially Werner von Braun and Edward Teller), and there is no reason to think the character was based on any specific individual.
Under the [[caliph]]s of [[Baghdad]] the Kurds were always giving trouble in one quarter or another. In [[838]], and again in [[905]], formidable insurrections occurred in northern Kurdistan; the [[amir]], Aqpd-addaula, was obliged to lead the forces of the caliphate against the southern Kurds, capturing the famous fortress of ''Sermaj'', whose ruins are to be seen at the present day near [[Behistun]], and reducing the province of ''Shahrizor'' with its capital city now marked by the great mound of ''Yassin Teppeh''. One of the very well known Kurdish scholars, [[Al-Dinawari]] ([[828]] - [[889]]), from ''Dinawar'' near [[Kermanshah]], lived in this period. He has written a book about the ancestry of the [[Kurds]].
see more at:
http://mayet.som.yale.edu/coopetition/vN.html


:Von Neumann was not an advocate of the kinds of views that are satirized in Strangelove, so I think he is unlikely to have been the model. Also, I'm not sure how many people were or are aware that he was confined to a wheelchair for a time. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 22:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
A Kurd named ''Nasr'' or ''Narseh'' converted to Christianity, and changed his name to ''Theophobos'' during the reign of Emperor [[Theophilus (emperor)|Theophilus]] and was the emperor's intimate friend and commander for many years.<ref>I. Sevcenko, Review of New Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire. ''[[Slavic Review]]'', p.111, 1968.</ref> Narseh joined [[Babak Khorramdin|Babak]]'s rebellion in southern Kurdistan, but [[Abbassid]] armies defeated his forces in [[833]] and according to the Muslim historian [[Tabari]] around 60,000 of his followers were killed. Narseh himself fled to the Byzantine territories and helped form the Kurdish contingent of Theophilus. This Kurdish force invaded the domain of [[caliphate]] in [[838]] to help Babak's rebellion. After the defeat of Babak, Narseh and his followers settled in [[Pontus]] (north-central [[Anatolia]]).<ref>M. Izady, ''The Kurds: A Concise Handbook'', Taylor & Francis, 1992, p.42.</ref>


:[[John Milnor]] also thinks that Dr. Strangelove could have been inspired by [[von Neumann]] --- see http://www.ams.org/notices/199810/milnor.pdf (at the end of the first page). After all, why is the wheelchair that important? --[[User:Cokaban|Cokaban]] ([[User talk:Cokaban|talk]]) 20:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The eclipse of the [[Sasanian]] and [[Byzantine]] power by the [[Muslim]] [[caliphate]], and its own subsequent weakening, let the Kurdish principalities and "mountain administrators" set up new independent states. The Shaddadids of the [[Caucasus]] and Armenia, the Rawadids of Azerbaijan, the Marwandis of eastern [[Anatolia]], the [[Hasanwayhid]]s, Fadhilwayhids, and Ayyarids of the central [[Zagros]] are some of the these Kurdish dynasties.


The article mentions a possible connection to Kissinger. It can be verified that Kissinger gave no press conferences during Nixon's first term. I remember reading at the start of Nixon's second term the idea that they had kept Kissinger out of the public eye precisely because his accent would remind people of the Strangelove character. In the first year of Nixon's second term, Kissinger was finally rollled out for the press. F.Baube <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/88.114.251.125|88.114.251.125]] ([[User talk:88.114.251.125|talk]]) 19:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
==Medieval Kurdish Dynasties==
In [[837]], the Kurdish lord Rozeguite, founded the town of Akhlat on the banks of Lake [[Van]] and made it the capital of his principality, theoretically vassal of the [[caliph]], but in fact virtually independent. Principality of ''Ake'' ruled a Carduchian land which lay between the upper valley of the ''Centritis'' and the ''Zabus''. It was situated between [[Arzanene]] and [[Adiabene]]. At the beginning of 10th century, it became a vassal of the ''Artsrunis'' of [[Vaspurakan]]. ''Andzewatsi'' was another principality located in southeast of [[Lake Van|Van]] and northwest of ''Ake'' and its princes were a branch of Medo-Carduchians of ''Mahkert''. In [[780]], its chief prince ''Tachat Andzewatsi'' was in [[Abbasid caliphate|Caliph]]'s obedience. After him, the dynasty declined and it was reduced to vassalage of the Artsrunis in [[860]]<ref>C. Toumanoff, ''Introduction to Christian Caucasian History II: Status and Dynasties of the Formative Period'', Traditio, Vol. XVII, pp.1-107, 1961, Frodham University Press, New York. (see p.49) </ref>.


== "Trivia" vs. "Miscellaneous facts" ==
In the second half of the 10th century, [[Kurdistan]] was shared amongst five big Kurdish principalities. In the North the [[Shaddadid]] ([[951]]-[[1174]]) (in parts of [[Armenia]] and [[Arran (Azerbaijan)|Arran]]) and [[Rawadid]] ([[955]]-[[1221]]) in [[Tabriz]] and [[Maragheh]], in the East the [[Hasanwayhid]]s ([[959]]-[[1015]]), the [[Annazid]] ([[990]]-[[1117]]) (in [[Kermanshah]], ''Dinawar'' and [[Khanaqin]]) and in the West the [[Marwanid]] ([[990]]-[[1096]]) of [[Diyarbakır]]. Remnants of the [[Shaddadid]] Kurds are found nowadays in the [[Kalbajar]] and [[Lachin]] regions of [[Azarbaijan]], between [[Nagorno Karabakh]] and [[Armenia]].


Regardless of the dogmatic insistence otherwise, there is a distinct difference between "trivia" and "miscellaenous facts." "Trivia" is, by defintion, '''''trivial''''' -- unimportant, minor, not significant. A trivial fact is true but uninteresting, uninformative, inapt or unworthy of inclusion, and any list of such facts should be removed -- not simply '''''tagged''''' but gotten rid of.<p>A "miscellaneous fact" is something else entirely. It is a fact that merits inclusion because it fufills the Wikipedian requirements for such, but which is either not easily connected to the existing body of the article, or for which the necessary connective material would be longer than justifiable. A list of such facts is not "trivia", it's a list of stuff that deserves inclusion, but which just don't fit easily into the article. To slap a tag on such a list, condemning them is unfair.<p>Not only that, but the purpose of the tag eludes me. If an editor believes that the facts aren't worthy of inclusion, he or she should remove them, not simply label them. If the facts are worthy of inclusion, then they're not "trivia" and the tag is unwarranted.<p>In this case, the tag is completely unwarranted, and I'm removing it for that reason. Please do not restore it until you have made your case here and a consensus has been reached on this discussion page concerning its applicability to '''''this specific list of facts'''''. If there are facts on the list which are trivial, perhaps we can reach agreement on them and they can be removed. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 06:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Later in 12th century, Kurdish dynasty of [[Hazaraspid]] established its rule in southern [[Zagros]] and [[Luristan]] and conquered territories of [[Kohgiluyeh and Boyer-Ahmad Province|Kuhgiluya]], [[Khuzestan]] and [[Golpayegan]] in 13th century and annexed [[Shushtar]], [[Hoveizeh]] and [[Basra]] in 14th century.


:I get where you are coming from. you are right that some of these miscellaneous facts are in fact noteworthy. However a bulletpoint list of them is sloppy, and invites people to add less notable things into the article...and who can blaim them, they have a list of disconjoined statements that they are mearly adding to.<p>my question is: how do these statements, that don't fit the flow of the article and can't be included inside the article without a major rework of the existing body, justify inclusion into this article? The reason I placed the tag there is because it calls for editors to work the bullet list into the main body. if it doesn't fit into the main body, then how does it fit into the article itself? (note that the body of the article, is in fact the article itself). <p>Personaly I believe that if it dosn't fit, it dosn't belong. and I consider bullet points in wikipedia sloppy editing.<p>please note that the tag only calls for people to try and work the list into the article, and I didn't delete this section. I am going to put the tag back, I have done as you asked and posted my reasons and I hope we can make this work and get a better article from it. [[User:Coffeepusher|Coffeepusher]] ([[User talk:Coffeepusher|talk]]) 07:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
One of these dynasties would have been able, during the decades, to impose its supremacy on the others and build a state incorporating the whole Kurdish country if the course of history had not been disrupted by the massive invasions of tribes surging out of the steppes of Central Asia. Having conquered [[Iran]] and imposed their yoke on the caliph of [[Baghdad]], the [[Seljuk Turks]] annexed the Kurdish principalities one by one. Around [[1150]], [[Ahmed Sanjar]], the last of the great Seljuk monarchs, created a province out of these lands and called it [[Kurdistan]]. The province of Kurdistan, formed by Sanjar, had as its capital the village Bahar (which means "spring"), near ancient [[Ecbatana]] ([[Hamadan]]), capital of the [[Medes]]. It included the vilayets of Sinjar and Shahrazur to the west of the [[Zagros]] mountain range and those of [[Hamadan]], Dinawar and [[Kermanshah]] to the east of this range. A brilliant autochthonous [[civilization]] developed around the town of Dinawar (today ruined), located 75km North-East of [[Kermanshah]], whose radiance was later on partially replaced by that of [[Senna]], 90km further North<ref>[http://www.institutkurde.org/en/institute/who_are_the_kurds.php]</ref>
::I have re read the list, and I don't thing it actually differs from a trivia section. "'Peace is Our Profession' was the actual motto of the [[Strategic Air Command]]....on her 90'th birthday the audiance started laughing...Major Kong's B-52, The Leper Colony, is a direct tribute...The science officer character in the [[Muppet Show]] skit known as [[Pigs in Space]]...Dame Vera Lynn, in an interview on the BBC that celebrated her 90th birthday..." that and there are only 2 referances for 11 bullets, which makes it uncited information...and in the case of the Raising Arizona bullet dangerously close to origional reserch. outside of cocktail partys, how does this information help me better understand Dr. Strangelove?[[User:Coffeepusher|Coffeepusher]] ([[User talk:Coffeepusher|talk]]) 07:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


Excuse me, please, but you seem to be missing the point here. I've instigated a discussion about this, and requested that you '''''not restore the tag until that discussion has reached a consensus''''' and yet you have once again put the tag on the list! Since a discussion is underway, you should not anticipate the result of that discussion until it is concluded. '''''Please do not restore the tag until we've talked a bit about this.'''''<p>Now, to your substantive points -- your prejudice against bulleted lists is unfounded, they are not sloppy editing at all. In some situations -- such as this one, with a list inclusion-worthy but unrelated facts -- a bulleted list is, in fact, the best and clearest way to present the material.<p>I'm not sure how to respond to your question about how a particular fact "Helps you better understand" Dr. Strangelove -- that would be up to you, I would think, but, in any case, helping you better understand the subject isn't the criteria for inclusion. (How does knowing who played the Russian ambassador help you better understand the film? It doesn't.) These facts are notable, relevant, interesting and informative, and therefore merit inclusion.<p>Tags are, I'm afraid to say, widely overused on Wikipedia, especially so since they are almost entirely ineffective in doing what they purport to do, which is to prompt someone to edit the material. Look around the project and you'll easily find tags that have been in place for a long, long, time without anyone doing a damn thing about the underlying material. A tag is, essentially, goading someone else to do work that you feel should be done, and, as such, '''''they''''' are sloppy editing. Not only that, they disfigure the page and make it more difficult for the user to utilize the article. Of what possible use can it be for a reader of Wikipedia to know that "trivia sections are discouraged" on Wikipedia? It tells them absolutely nothing about the subject they've come to find out about, which is why they're reading the page in the first place.<p>I look forward to you response here, and hope to engage you in helpful discussion so that we can come to some mutual meeting of the minds, but I remind you, while the discussion is ongoing, please don't restore the tag that we're discussing here. Thanks. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 08:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
[[Marco Polo]] ([[1254]] – [[1324]]), famous for the first “world trip”, met Kurds in [[Mosul]] on his way to [[China]], and he wrote what he had learned about [[Kurdistan]] and the Kurds to enlighten his [[Europe]]an contemporaries. The [[Italy|Italian]] Kurdologist Mirella Galetti, sorted these writings which were translated into [[Kurdish language|Kurdish]].<ref>[http://www.bakhawan.com/dotkurd/nebez/Inglizi/TheKurds.pdf], p.55</ref>


==The Ayyubid period==
[[Image:Ayyubid.png|thumb|right|250px|[[The Middle East]], c. [[1190]]. Saladin's empire and its vassals shown in red; territory taken from the [[Crusader states]] [[1187]]-[[1189]] shown in pink. Light green indicates Crusader territories surviving [[Saladin]]'s death.]]


:Please tell me how this imporves the article.
{{main|Ayyubid dynasty}}


:I could easily take a few of the bullets and encorperate them into the article, but the reast seem to be uncited popular culture references. this opens a trap door to a bottemless pit. baced on the noteriaty of the items on this list we could include "In one episode of the animated telivision show "The Tick" a stock mad scientist was modeled after Dr. Strangelove who made giant pants to lure a rampaging monster" "Phantam hand syndrome has the nickname "Dr. Stranglove hand"" "Ride The Bomb is a phrase used to mean follow a task to your mutual distruction" etc. That is why I don't understand your distinction between trivia and this list, it appears to be up to you as to what word you use.
The most flourishing period of Kurdish power was probably during the 12th century, when the great [[Saladin]], who belonged to the Rawendi branch of the Hadabani(or [[Adiabene]]) tribe, founded the [[Ayyubid|Ayyubite]] ([[1171]]-[[1250]]) dynasty of Syria, and Kurdish chieftainships were established, not only to the east and west of the Kurdistan mountains, but as far as [[Khorasan]] upon one side and [[Egypt]] and [[Yemen]] on the other.


:I will go ahead and see if I can encorperate some of the cited references into the body of the article, since that is your end goal...keeping them in the article. [[User:Coffeepusher|Coffeepusher]] ([[User talk:Coffeepusher|talk]]) 17:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
==The Period of Mongols, Timur, Karakoyunlu and Akkoyunlu==
The Mongols devastated the Kurdish areas in the 13th century. [[Hulagu]]'s Army eliminated many Kurdish tribal chiefs. In 14th century, [[Timur]] conquered most of Kurdistan and devastated [[Kurdish tribes]]. In fifteenth century, [[Karakoyunlu]] rulers helped Kurdish chieftains to recover their lost influence. However, when the [[Akkoyunlu]] dynasty defeated the Karakoyunlu, Kurdish tribes were persecuted. The Akkoyunlu exterminated many notable ruling Kurdish families and appointed their own governors in their place.<ref>H. Ozoglu, ''State-Tribe Relations: Kurdish Tribalism in the 16th and 17th Century Ottoman Empire'', British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 1996, p.11</ref>


::You may have noticed that I have already started doing that.<p>Unlike you, I have no objection to cultural references being enumerated in Wikipedia articles -- it's simply a matter of keeping them under control, which is no different from editing an article for any other reason. I really can't understand why people seem so frightened about this -- I've never seen so many "[[slippery slope]]" arguments as when one discusses cultural references. Weird, it's as if people are afraid of our culture somehow slipping into an encyclopedia, a large part of which is devoted to cultural items. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 17:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
==Kurdish Principalities after the Mongol period==
After the [[Mongol]] period, [[Kurds]] established several independent states or [[principalities]] such as [[Ardalan]], [[Badinan]], [[Baban]], [[Soran Emirate|Soran]], ''Hakkari'' and [[Badlis]]. A comprehensive history of these states and their relationship with their neighbors is given in the famous textbook of "Sharafnama" written by Prince Sharaf al-Din Biltisi in [[1597]].<ref>[http://www.mazdapublishers.com/Sharafnama.htm Sharafnama: History of the Kurish Nation<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> The most prominent among these was [[Ardalan]] which was established in early 14th century. The state of [[Ardalan]] controlled the territories of Zardiawa (Karadagh), [[Khanaqin]], [[Kirkuk]], Kifri, and [[Hawraman]]. The capital city of the state was first in Sharazour in [[Iraqi Kurdistan]], but was moved to [[Sinne]] (in [[Iran]]) later on. The [[Ardalan]] Dynasty continued to rule the region until the [[Qajar]] monarch [[Nasser-al-Din Shah]](1848-1896) ended their rule in [[1867]].


::Please stop inserting material until you've seen what I've already done as part of a general clean-up of the article -- you're duplicating effort. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 17:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


:hehe! I don't usually get called on when I use fallicys in logic, they ususaly slip by. I actually agree that popular culture should be included...within reason. I was thinking about turning the Micilanious section into a "Popular culture references" section. what do you think?[[User:Coffeepusher|Coffeepusher]] ([[User talk:Coffeepusher|talk]]) 18:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
==Ottoman period==
::I think that would be OK -- we'd just have to find place for the 3 non-cultural reference items. I'll take a look at that now. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 18:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
When Sultan [[Selim I]], after defeating Shah [[Ismail I]] in [[1514]], annexed Armenia and Kurdistan, he entrusted the organisation of the conquered territories to Idris, the historian, who was a Kurd of [[Bitlis]]. He divided the territory into ''sanjaks'' or districts, and, making no attempt to interfere with the principle of heredity, installed the local chiefs as governors. He also resettled the rich pastoral country between [[Erzerum]] and [[Erivan]], which had lain in waste since the passage of [[Timur]], with Kurds from the [[Hakkari]] and Bohtan districts.


OK, I've moved all but the three cultural references into footnotes, and changed the title of the section, plus I think I'm finished with the general copyedit and clean-up of the article, pending another look-see later today. (I find I need to lay off for a while and then look again.) [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz)]] <small>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</small> 18:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
===Battle against Yazidis===
In [[1640]], [[Ottoman Empire|Ottoman]] forces under the command of ''Firari Mustafa Pasha'' attacked the [[Yazidi]] Kurds of Mount ''Sinjar''(Saçlı Dağı). According to [[Evliya Çelebi]], the Ottoman force was around 40,000 strong. The battle lasted for seven hours and at the end 3,060 Yazidis were slain. The day after the battle, the Ottoman army raided and set fire to 300 Yazidi villages. Between 1000 to 2000 Yazidis had taken refuge in some caves around Sinjar. They were also massacred after the Ottoman army attacked the caves with [[cannon]]s and hand [[grenade]]s<ref>Evliya Çelebi, ''The Intimate Life of an Ottoman Statesman: Melek Ahmed Pasha (1588-1662)'', Translated by Robert Dankoff, 304 pp., SUNY Press, 1991, ISBN 0791406407, pp.169-171</ref>.


== Groeteschele ==
===Rozhiki Revolt===
In [[1655]], ''Abdal Khan'' the Kurdish ''Rozhiki'' ruler of [[Badlis|Bidlis]], formed a private army and fought a full scale war against the [[Ottoman]] troops. [[Evliya Çelebi]] noted the presence of many [[Yazidi]]s in his army.<ref>James J. Reid, ''Rozhîkî Revolt, 1065/1655'', Journal of Kurdish Studies, Vol.3, pp.13-40, 2000.</ref>. The main reason for this armed insurrection was the discord between Abdal Khan and ''Melek Ahmad Pasha'' the Ottoman governor of [[Van]] and Abdal Khan. The Ottoman troops marched onto Bidlis and committed atrocities against civilians as they passed through ''Rozhiki'' territory. Abdal Khan had built great stone redoubts around Bitlis, and also old city walls were defended by a large army of Kurdish [[infantry]] armed with [[musket]]s. Ottomans attacked the outer defensive perimeter and defeated Rozhiki soldiers, then they rushed to loot Bidlis and attacked the civilians. Once the Ottoman force established its camp in Bidlis, in an act of revenge, Abdal Khan made a failed attempt to assassinate Melek Ahmad Pasha. A unit of twenty Kurdish soldiers rode into the tent of Yusuf Kethuda, the second-in-command and fought a ferocious battle with his guards. After the fall of Bidlis, 1400 Kurds continued to resist from the city's old [[citadel]]. While most of these surrendered and were given amnesty, 300 of them were massacred by Melek Ahmad with 70 of them dismembered by sword and cut into pieces<ref>James J. Reid, ''Batak 1876: a massacre and its significance'', Journal of Genocide Research, 2(3), pp.375-409, 2000.</ref>.


Groeteschele was Jewish not ex-Nazi in the book Failsafe, which was published in 1962 not 1960, I believe. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.23.77.74|75.23.77.74]] ([[User talk:75.23.77.74|talk]]) 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
[[Image:Kurdish-inhabited area by CIA (1992).jpg|thumb|200px|[[Kurdistan]]]]
The system of administration introduced by Idris remained unchanged until the close of the [[Russo-Turkish War, 1828-1829|Russo-Turkish War of 1828-29]]. But the Kurds, owing to the remoteness of their country from the capital and the decline of Turkey, had greatly increased in influence and power, and had spread westwards over the country as far as [[Ankara|Angora]].


== suggest splitting off list of references to [[CRM114]] into a separate "list of" article ==
After the war the Kurds tried to free themselves from [[Ottoman Empire|Turkish]] control, and in [[1834]], after the Bedirkhan clan uprising, it became necessary to reduce them to subjection. This was done by Reshid Pasha, also a kurd <ref>Kurdistan in the shadow of history</ref> The principal towns were strongly garrisoned, and many of the Kurd [[bey]]s were replaced by Turkish governors. A rising under Bedr Khan Bey in 1843 was firmly repressed, and after the [[Crimean War]] the Turks strengthened their hold on the country.


Personally I dislike these "lists of" because they are incoherent, tend to grow "[[ad infinitum]]", and clutter the article with barely relevant info. I suggest following the example of [[THX 1138]], which split off such a list into [[1138 (number)]]. --[[User:Jtir|Jtir]] ([[User talk:Jtir|talk]]) 00:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Kurdistan as an administrative entity had a brief and shaky existence of 17 years between [[13 December]] [[1847]] (following [[Bedirhan Bey's revolt]]) and [[1864]], under the initiative of [[Koca Mustafa Reşit Pasha]] during the [[Tanzimat]] period ([[1839]]-[[1876]]) of the Ottoman Empire. The capital of the province was, at first, [[Ahlat]], and covered [[Diyarbekir]], [[Muş]], [[Van]], [[Hakkari]], [[Cizre]], [[Botan]] and [[Mardin]]. In the following years, the capital was transferred several times, first from Ahlat to Van, then to Muş and finally to Diyarbakır. Its area was reduced in 1856 and the province of Kurdistan within the [[Ottoman Empire]] was abolished in [[1864]]. Instead, the former provinces of [[Diyarbekir]] and [[Van, Turkey|Van]] have been re-constituted <ref>[http://www.ozgurpolitika.org/2003/02/19/hab44.html]</ref> Around [[1880]], Shaikh Ubaidullah led a revolt aiming at bringing the areas between Lakes Van and Urmia under his own rule, however Ottoman and Qajar forces succeeded in defeating the revolt <ref>C. Dahlman, ''The Political Geography of Kurdistan'', Eurasian Geography and Economics, Vol. 43, No.4, 2002, p.278</ref>.
:Let me take a look at that article. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 02:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
===Bedr Khan of Botan===
::Very good suggestion, I've made the move and just finished fixing the redirects (hope I got them all). Now, we'll see if anyone objects to have the material there. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 03:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The modernizing and centralizing efforts of [[Sultan Mahmud II]], antagonized Kurdish feudal chiefs. As a result two powerful Kurdish families rebelled against the Ottomans in [[1830]]. ''Bedr Khan'' of Botan rose up in the west of Kurdistan, around [[Diyarbakır]], and ''Muhammad Pasha'' of Rawanduz rebelled in the east and established his authority in [[Mosul]] and [[Erbil]]. At this time, Turkish troops were preoccupied with invading Egyptian troops in Syria and were unable to suppress the revolt. As a result, ''Bedr Khan'' extended his authority to ''Diyarbakır'', ''Siverik'' ([[Siverek]]), ''Veransher'' ([[Viranşehir]]), ''Sairt'' ([[Siirt]]), [[Sulaimania]] and ''Sauj Bulaq'' ([[Mahabad]]). He established a Kurdish state in these regions until [[1845]]. He struck his own coins, and his name was included in Friday sermons. In [[1847]], the Turkish forces turned their attention toward this area, and defeated Bedr Khan and exiled him to [[Crete]]. He was later allowed to return to [[Damascus]], where he lived until his death in [[1868]].
:::I didn't think to check for an article called [[CRM114]], but there it is. ISTM, that the main CRM114 article should be about the device in the film, and the article on the computer program should be renamed to, say, [[CRM114 (program)]]. It might be a good idea to add a screenshot, so that the exact punctuation, "CRM114" vs. "CRM-114", is verifiable. BTW, another article, [[Room 101]], is split off from [[1984 (novel)]]. (FWIW, [[CRM113]] is an earlier, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Dr._Strangelove_or:_How_I_Learned_to_Stop_Worrying_and_Love_the_Bomb&diff=190563970&oldid=190549475 little known model] of the device. :-)) --[[User:Jtir|Jtir]] ([[User talk:Jtir|talk]]) 14:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
::::I have proposed renaming [[CRM114]] to [[CRM114 (program)]] at [[Talk:CRM114]]. --[[User:Jtir|Jtir]] ([[User talk:Jtir|talk]]) 19:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


== Slim Pickens and whether he really did know he was in a comedy ==
Bedr Khan become a king when his brother died. His brothers son got very upset over this and finally the Turks tricked him in fighting his uncle. They told him that they would make him king if he killed Bedr Khan. So he brought many kurdish warriors with him and attacked his uncles forces.. Finally he won over him, but instead of becoming a king like the Turks said, he got executed. <ref>"Kurdistan in the shadow of history"</ref> There are two famous kurdish songs about this battle, called "Ezdin Shêr" and "Ez Xelef im"
(both can be found on http://www.kurdishmusic.eu/siwanperwerm.html)


This is mainly a response to [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|Ed Fitzgerald]] but I felt it was best to put it here as it relates mainly to the article. I'm sure Ed will see the comment very quickly.
After him, there were further revolts in 1850 and [[1852]].<ref>W. G. Elphinston, ''The Kurdish Question'', Journal of International Affairs, Royal Institute of International Affairs, 1946, p.93</ref>


Ed, this article is not your personal property. Wikipedia is built on consensus. The point we are disputing is only a minor part of the article but you will brook no dissent from your opinion. I removed a statement that I think (as I have noticed before) is ridiculous. You put it back. I'm not interested in edit-warring so I left this. I put in a {{Tl|Fact}} tag but even that is too much for you - you removed the {{Tl|Fact}} tag twice. You may think it is perfectly plausible that [[Slim Pickens]] didn't know he was working on a comedy but I do not. You opinion is not the only opinion that has value. If you think Slim Pickens did not know this was a comedy then take up the challenge I laid down and find a reliable source for the claim.
===Shaikh Ubaidullah's Revolt and Armenians===
[[Image:Kurdscostunme.jpg|thumb|Kurdish costumes, 1873.]]The [[Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78]] was followed by the attempt of Sheikh Obaidullah in [[1880]] - [[1881]] to found an independent Kurd [[principality]] under the protection of Turkey. The attempt, at first encouraged by the [[Ottoman Empire|Porte]], as a reply to the projected creation of an Armenian state under the suzerainty of Russia, collapsed after Obaidullah's raid into Persia, when various circumstances led the central government to reassert its supreme authority. Until the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-1829 there had been little hostile feeling between the Kurds and the Armenians, and as late as 1877-1878 the mountaineers of both races had co-existed fairly well together.


This is exactly the denial of consensus which brings criticism down on Wikipedia from organisations like [[The Register]]. Anyway I'm annoyed that you won't even consider an alternative view point on such a minor issue. This sort of thing annoys me and I'm on a Wikibreak effective immediately.
In 1891 the activity of the Armenian Committees induced the Porte to strengthen the position of the Kurds by raising a body of Kurdish [[irregular military|irregular]] [[cavalry]], which was well-armed and called [[Hamidieh soldier]]s after the Sultan [[Abd-ul-Hamid II]]. Minor disturbances constantly occurred, and were soon followed by the massacre of Armenians at [[Sasun]] and other places, 1894 - 1896, in which the Kurds took an active part. Some of the separatist Kurds, aimed to establish a separate Kurdish state.


Oh, BTW, my wife is an actress and film producer so you aren't the only person who has hung around actors. [[User:Robert Brockway|Robert Brockway]] ([[User talk:Robert Brockway|talk]]) 03:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
==Safavid period==
During the years [[1506]]-[[1510]], [[Yazidi]] Kurds revolted against Shah [[Ismail I]]. Their leader, Shir Sarim, was defeated and captured in a bloody battle wherein several important officers of Shah Ismail lost their lives. The Kurdish prisoners were put to death "''with tor­ments worse than which there may not be''".<ref>http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=90001014&ct=16&rqs=573&rqs=596</ref>


:See my comment below, written before I read this. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 03:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
===Forced deportation of the Kurds===
Removal of the population from along their borders with the [[Ottomans]] in [[Kurdistan]] and the [[Caucasus]] was of strategic importance to the [[Safavids]]. Hundreds of thousands of [[Kurds]], along with large groups of [[Armenians]], [[Assyrians]], [[Azeris]], and [[Turkmens]], were forcibly removed from the border regions and resettled in the interior of [[Persia]]. As the borders moved progressively eastward, as the Ottomans pushed deeper into the Persian domains, entire Kurdish regions of [[Anatolia]] were at one point or another exposed to horrific acts of despoliation and deportation. These began under the reign of the [[Safavid]] Shah [[Tahmasp I]] (ruled [[1524]]-[[1576]]). Between 1534 and [[1535]], Tahmasp began the systematic destruction of the old Kurdish cities and the countryside. When retreating before the Ottoman army, Tahmasp ordered the destruction of crops and settlements of all sizes, driving the inhabitants before him into [[Azerbaijan]], from where they were later transferred permanently, nearly 1000 miles east, into [[Khurasan]]. Some Kurdish tribes were deported even farther east, into Gharjistan in the [[Hindu Kush]] mountains of present day [[Afghanistan]], about 1500 miles away from their homes in western Kurdistan.


::Robert: You bring up several interesting topics, worthy of a more specific response, so let me tackle them one by one.<p>'''<u>Ownership</u>''' I full understand that no one "owns" an article on Wikipedia -- a fact I finally got through my thick skull when my lawyer wouldn't let me add one to my will. But let's talk reality here, if someone works hard on an article, puts in a lot of effort, shapes it, researches it, smooths it, whatever, then certainly there develops a feeling of protectiveness about it. I've compared it to the feeling a parent has for their children, in weaker form, of course. I don't "own" my kids, but I'm protective of them, and want the best for them, and may have to be convinced that someone else wants the best for them too. And that's important, because the reality is that if it weren't for the sense of -- let's call it "stewardship" -- that people feel for the articles they work on, Wikipedia would be in constant danger of devolving into a heaping mass of vandalism, high school hijinks and irrelevancies. It's a somewhat under-acknowldged fact of Wikipedian life that the project is dependent on the feeling of attachment that people get for the pages they contribute to. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 04:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The magnitude of Safavid destruction can be glimpsed through the works of the Safavid court historians. One of these, ''Iskandar Bayg Munshi'', describing just one episode, writes in the ''Alam-ara ye Abbasi'' that [[Shah Abbas I]], in furthering the scorched earth policy of his predecessors, ''set upon the country north of the [[Araxes]] and west of [[Urmia]], and between [[Kars]] and Lake [[Van]], which he commanded to be laid waste and the population of the countryside and the entire towns rounded up and led out of harm's way.'' Resistance was met "with [[wiktionary:massacre|massacres]] and [[mutilation]]; all immovable propertyhouses, [[churches]], [[mosques]], crops ... were destroyed, and the whole horde of prisoners was hurried southeast before the Ottomans should counterattack". Many of these [[Kurds]] ended up in [[Khurasan]], but many others were scattered into the [[Alburz]] mountains, central [[Persia]], and even [[Balochistan (region)|Balochistan]]. They became the nucleus of several modern Kurdish enclaves outside Kurdistan proper, in [[Iran]] and [[Turkmenistan]]. On one occasion [[Abbas I]] is said to have intended to transplant 40,000 Kurds to northern Khorasan but to have succeeded in deporting only 15,000 before his troops were defeated.<ref>[http://www.iranica.com/articles/v7/v7f3/v7f342.html Deportations<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref><ref>John Perry, ''Forced Migration in Iran During the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries'', Iranian Studies, VIII-4, 1975.</ref>


::'''<u>Consensus</u>''' This can be a rather hot-button subject, so I'm hesitant to get too deeply into it, but let me say that on Wikipedia, "consensus" ain't all it's cracked up to be. Consensus in the real world takes a fairly long time to develop, and issue may pass through numerous phases of intense conflict and remission before they finally drift into some sort of consensus position. It takes time for consensus to come about, and almost always on Wikipedia, that sort of time is not provided. Sooner, rather than later, someone wraps up the discussion, and it's a undeniable fact that in this system '''''the opinion of the adminstrator who closes out a discussion is what determines what "consensus" is'''''. Now, obviously, if the discussion is totally lopsided, that's one thing, the admnstrator won't be able to skew the result to that degree, but in many (maybe evenmost) cases, the discussion will be fairly evenly balanced, which gives the administrator the ability to decide which way to go. Add to this the fact that the people participating in the discussion are those that just happen to drop by, and what you get is a rather bizarre system in which "consensus" means something like "a super-majority of the random selection of people discussing the topic, with the administrator as super-user whose opinion counts more than anyone else." To say the least, that's a strange way of running any complex system, but that's pretty much what goes on here.<p>The other serious problem with consensus is, of course, that reaching a "consensus" about something (however that is decided in the particular situation) is no guarantee of factual accuracy, since many facts are absolute and not relative to one's opinion. Consensual agreement can be helpful in matters of opinion (which this dispute between us is, essentially), but not so much when it comes down to what's real in the real world. So it's a puzzlement to me how anyone can expect an encyclopedia, whose purpose in the world is to be factually accurate, to survive when the engine that drives it is "consensus." [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 04:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Following the Battle of [[Chalderan]], Sultan [[Selim I]] (the Grim), deported several populous Kurdish tribes into central Anatolia, south of modern [[Ankara]]. In their place, he settled a few, more loyal, [[Turkmen people|Turkmen]] tribes. While the deported Kurds became the nucleus of the modern central Anatolian Kurdish enclave, the Turkmen tribes in Kurdistan eventually assimilated.<ref name="autogenerated3" />


::'''<u>Viewpoint</u>''' This is not a general point, but more specific to this issue. I certainly respect that you were able to cite your wife's occupation as a trump card to my argument from authority (more power to you!), but let me say this: as the husband of an actress, I assume you see things more or less from her point of view. My experience has been as a stage manager in the legit theatre for 30+ years, and my observation of the eccentricities and (cough) deficiencies of actors, dancers, musicians and other performing artists may be somewhat more acute, since I have to deal with the practical repercussions of those character traits on an ongoing basis. In other words, I've seen a lot of stuff in my day, and it leads me to feel that Slim Pickens not realizing the movie was a comedy is not at all an unreasonable thing -- especially if his agent made the arrangements, told him where to go on what day, and Pickens only read the part of the script he was in. (Assuming that the shooting script he was given even had any other section in it, since actors are often deliberately left out of the loop by directors in order that their performances not be skewed by knowledge their character wouldnt' have.) I'm not saying it had to happen that way, I'm just saying that my life experience makes it all quite believable, since I've seen thing some things that were '''''very similar''''' happen.<p>Now, obviously, I could be wrong, but if you follow the logic of my comment below, about the process of adding a "fact" tag, it really should be incumbent on the person who doubts the fact to make the effort to find pry open the top of the box and shed some light on the issue, and not vice versa. I have no particular problem with the statement as written, but you do, and so it should be you who delves into it to see what's what. If you come up with evidence one way or the other, that's great, I certainly bow to that reality. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 04:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
===Battle of Dimdim===
There is a well documented historical account of a long battle in [[1609]]-[[1610]] between [[Kurds]] and the [[Safavid]] Empire. The battle took place around a fortress called "Dimdim" (DimDim) in Beradost region around Lake [[Urmia]] in northwestern [[Iran]]. In [[1609]], the ruined structure was rebuilt by "Emîr Xan Lepzêrîn" (Golden Hand Khan), ruler of Beradost, who sought to maintain the independence of his expanding principality in the face of both [[Ottoman Empire|Ottoman]] and Safavid penetration into the region. Rebuilding Dimdim was considered a move toward independence that could threaten Safavid power in the northwest. Many Kurds, including the rulers of Mukriyan ([[Mahabad]]), rallied around Amir Khan. After a long and bloody siege led by the Safavid grand vizier Hatem Beg, which lasted from November 1609 to the summer of 1610, Dimdim was captured. All the defenders were massacred. [[Shah Abbas]] ordered a general massacre in Beradost and Mukriyan (reported by Eskandar Beg Turkoman, Safavid Historian in the Book ''Alam Aray-e Abbasi'') and resettled the Turkish [[Afshar]] tribe in the region while deporting many Kurdish tribes to [[Khorasan]]. Although Persian historians (like Eskandar Beg ) depicted the first battle of Dimdim as a result of Kurdish mutiny or treason, in Kurdish oral traditions (Beytî dimdim), literary works (Dzhalilov, pp. 67-72), and histories, it was treated as a struggle of the Kurdish people against foreign domination. In fact, Beytî dimdim is considered a national epic second only to [[Mem û Zîn]] by [[Ehmedê Xanî]] ([[Ahmad Khani]]). The first literary account of this battle is written by [[Faqi Tayran]].<ref>[http://www.iranica.com/articles/v7/v7f4/v7f446.html DIMDIM<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref><ref>ISBN 0-89158-296-7</ref><ref>O. Dzh. Dzhalilov, Kurdski geroicheski epos "Zlatoruki Khan" (The Kurdish heroic epic "Gold-hand Khan"), Moscow, 1967, pp. 5-26, 37-39, 206.</ref>


==20th century history==
== "fact" tags ==
===Rise of nationalism===
{{main|Kurdish nationalism}}
{{see|Rise of nationalism under the Ottoman Empire}}


There are approximately 3 gazillion facts in Wikipedia, and 2.84 of them are unreferenced. An unreferenced fact is the norm, not a rarity. If someone comes across a fact they disbelieve or are suspicious of, they should research the question. If they find evidence that the fact is '''''untrue''''', then they should remove the "fact", if, instead, they can't find any particular evidence to support the fact, '''''then''''' they are justified in putting a "fact" tag on it. Slapping a fact tag on something you question without researching it is simply asking that '''''someone else''''' check out '''''your''''' suspicions. It's sloppy editing. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 03:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Kurdish nationalism emerged after [[World War I]] with the dissolution of the [[Ottoman Empire]] which had historically successfully integrated, but not assimilated, the Kurds, through use of forced repression of Kurdish movements to gain independence. Revolts did occur sporadically but only in 1880 with the uprising led by [[Sheik Ubeydullah]] were demands as an ethnic group or nation made. Ottoman sultan [[Abdul Hamid]] responded by a campaign of integration by co-opting prominent Kurdish opponents to strong Ottoman power with prestigious positions in his government. This strategy appears successful given the loyalty displayed by the Kurdish [[Hamidiye]] regiments during WWI.<ref name=laciner>{{cite journal|title=The Ideological And Historical Roots Of Kurdist Movements In Turkey: Ethnicity Demography, Politics|journal=Nationalism and Ethnic Politics|date=|first=Bal|last=Laçiner|coauthors=Bal, Ihsan|volume=10|issue=3|pages=473–504|doi= 10.1080/13537110490518282|url=http://www.turkishweekly.net/articles.php?id=15|format=|accessdate=2007-10-19}}</ref>


== Correct punctuation of CRM-114 ==
The Kurdish ethnonationalist movement that emerged following WWI and end of the Ottoman empire was largely reactionary to the changes taking place in mainstream Turkey, primarily radical [[secularization]] which the strongly [[Muslim]] Kurds abhorred, centralization of authority which threatened the power of local chieftains and Kurdish autonomy, and rampant [[Turkish nationalism]] in the new Turkish Republic which obviously threatened to marginalize them.<ref name=natali>{{cite journal|title=Ottoman Kurds and emergent Kurdish nationalism|journal=Critique: Critical Middle Eastern Studies|date=|first=Denise|last=Natali|coauthors=|volume=13|issue=3|pages=383–387|doi= 10.1080/1066992042000300701|url=|format=|accessdate=2007-10-19 }}</ref>


I've just check my copy of ''Strangelove'', and, in fact, the device is neither "CRM-114" or "CRM114" but is designated "C.R.M. 114". No hyphen, initials after each letter, space between the letters and the number.<p>However, I do not suggest you change the name of the article (especially since I just went throught and changed all the links so there wouldn't be any double-redirects). Instead, a series of redirect pages will do it. Also, if you haven't already made a disambiguation page for CRM114/CRM-114, you should probably do that -- I know how much you like to have dab's that conform to spec, so I'm sure you'll enjoy that. (grin) [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 03:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Western powers (particularly the [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|United Kingdom]]) fighting the Turks also promised the Kurds they would act as guarantors for Kurdish freedom, a promise they subsequently broke. One particular organization, the Kurdish [[Teali Cemiyet]] (Society for the Advancement of Kurdistan, or SAK) was central to the forging of a distinct Kurdish identity. It took advantage of period of political liberalization in during the [[Second Constitutional Era (Ottoman Empire)|Second Constitutional Era]] (1908-1920) of Turkey to transform a renewed interest in [[Kurdish culture]] and language into a political nationalist movement based on ethnicity.<ref name=natali/>


== Size of images ==
During the relatively open government of the 1950s, Kurds gained political office and started working within the framework of the Turkish Republic to further their interests but this move towards integration was halted with the [[1960 Turkish coup d'état]].<ref name=laciner/> The 1970s saw an evolution in Kurdish nationalism as [[Marxist]] political thought influenced a new generation of Kurdish nationalists opposed to the local [[feudal]] authorities who had been a traditional source of opposition to authority, eventually they would form the militant separatist Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan (PKK), or [[Kurdistan Workers Party]] in [[English language|English]].


I know there is a school of thought which holds that images should be placed in articles in thumbnail form, without hardcoding the size, which allows registered users to control the image size by setting the thumbnail size in his or her preferences, but I think this is antithetical to providing the encyclopedia's users with a good article layout, and also work against the long-term interests of the project.<p>My primary concern (as always) is with the user, and specfically not with registered users and those who are familiar with Wikipedia, but with the users who come to Wikipedia as a reference source without knowing, or wanting to know, anything about the project. They're not here to edit or register for yet another website, they're here to '''''find out something about a particular subject'''''. These people are our '''''target audience''''', because if Wikipedia seems to them to be a good source of reliable information which is well-presented, they'll come back again, and perhaps, at some point, get more involved in the project, and they'll reccommend the site to others.<p>It's the "well-presented" angle that I'm aiming at here. The naive user will come to Wikipedia with no specific preference settings, and what they'll see if the images are not hardcoded with a specific size are tiny postage-stamp sized pictures which are often hard to see or difficult to make out what's in them, which, in that state, hardly contribute at all to a well-presented article - if anything, they can be said to distract from it.<p>If an image is included on a page, it should be shown at the minimum size necessary to make it visually comprehensible without overwhelming the text. In short, it should '''''enhance''''' the text, and neither pull focus nor appear to be an afterthought. This requires that editors take some care in the placement and arrangement of the images, as well as in their size, and speaks against leaving them in their raw thumbnail state.<p>I appreciate that those who want images to remain uncoded for size are doing so in the spirit of individual choice, but I think they're overlooking the fact that if Wikipedia is to be a success and become the first choice for immediate online information, it needs to serve not only the people who hang around and know its ins-and-outs, but also all those who may come by only occasionally just to dip into the well.<p>For these reasons I have restored the hardcoded image sizes in he article. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 16:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
===Kurds under the Young Turks Regime===


:The trouble with manually setting thumbnail sizes is that it tends only to work for a particular monitor/screen resolution combination. What works well on a monster screen at high resolution will look terrible to someone on 800 x 600. Hence the MoS, which you are right to say is not dogma, but, like most consensuses here has a fair bit of weight and experience behind it. --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 22:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[[Jakob Künzler]], head of a missionary hospital in [[Urfa]], has documented the large scale [[ethnic cleansing]] of both [[Armenian people|Armenians]] and Kurds by the [[Young Turks]] during [[World War I]]. He has given a detailed account of deportation of Kurds from [[Erzurum]] and [[Bitlis]] in winter of [[1916]]. The Kurds were perceived to be subversive elements that would take the [[Russian Empire|Russian]] side in the war. In order to eliminate this threat, Young Turks embarked on a large scale deportation of Kurds from the regions of ''Djabachdjur'', ''Palu'', ''Musch'', ''Erzurum'' and ''Bitlis''. Around 300,000 Kurds were forced to move southwards to Urfa and then westwards to [[Gaziantep|Aintab]] and [[Kahramanmaraş|Marasch]]. In the summer of [[1917]], Kurds were moved to the [[Konya]] region in central [[Anatolia]]. Through this measures, the Young Turk leaders aimed at eliminating the Kurds by deporting them from their ancestral lands and by dispersing them in small pockets of exiled communities. By the end of World War I, up to 700,000 Kurds were forcibly deported and almost half of the displaced perished<ref>Dominik J. Schaller, Jürgen Zimmerer, ''Late Ottoman genocides: the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and Young Turkish population and extermination policies—introduction'', Journal of Genocide Research, Vol.10, No.1, p.8, March 2008.</ref>.
::There's also the problem of how different browsers render the page, a lesson I learned recently when fooling around with the layout of another movie article. Now, I routinely keep my browser (IE) set at a smaller size, to simulate what the page would look like on smaller monitors, then check it at full screen, then do the same with Firefox, just to be sure.<p>I don't mean to disrespect the Manual of Style as a repository of WikiWisdom, the majority of the time it's worthwhile following it because it makes good sense, but in general, not just in the MoS but throughtout Wikipedia, there's a lack of concern about how the user sees the articles, how we '''''present''''' ourselves to the world. Since Wikipedia's rules are made by editors, it's not surprising that they're biased towards editors (as opposed to users, two separate but overlapping sets), which means reistered and knowledgable users, and don't pay enough attention to user functionality, which I happen to think should be our paramount concern. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 22:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Well indeed. The MoS is founded on the user's needs in this case and I see no reason not to follow it. --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 23:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
::::No, I don't think so. It's geared to '''''registered''''' users, not to the casual user who moght someday become a registered user. [[User:Ed Fitzgerald|'''Ed Fitzgerald''' (unfutz)]] <b><small><sup>([[User talk:Ed Fitzgerald|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Ed Fitzgerald|cont]])</sup></small></b> 01:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::I see the distinction you are making. At this point it would be best to discuss at the MoS page why you feel the recommendation is wrong. --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 02:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


===After World War I===
== Sexuality section ==
Some of the Kurdist groups sought self-determination and the championing in the [[Treaty of Sèvres]] of Kurdish autonomy in the [[aftermath of World War I]], but the Turkish resurgence under [[Kemal Atatürk]] prevented such a result. Kurds backed by the United Kingdom declared independence in 1927 and established so-called [[Republic of Ararat]]. [[Turkey]] suppressed Kurdist revolts in 1925, 1930, and 1937 - 1938, while Iran did the same in the 1920s. A short-lived [[Soviet Union|Soviet]]-sponsored Kurdish [[Republic of Mahabad]] in Iran did not long outlast [[World War II]].


Is any of that true? The only citation is the part about who is in the picture in Playboy and a lot of it seems like it is just made up. Also, the section states that "Laputa" was the target of opportunity chosen after the plane started losing fuel. This is not the case. Laputa was the original primary target. I don't know what the target of opportunity was so I can't correct the article. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/67.87.227.33|67.87.227.33]] ([[User talk:67.87.227.33|talk]]) 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
When [[Ba'ath]]ist administrators thwarted Kurdish nationalist ambitions in [[Iraq]], war broke out in the 1960s. In 1970 the Kurds rejected limited territorial self-rule within Iraq, demanding larger areas including the oil-rich [[Kirkuk]] region.


: Laputa was indeed the primary target. The nearest target of opportunity, the one they attack, is an ICBM complex at Kodlosk.[http://www.screenplays-online.de/screenplay/21] [[User:MFNickster|MFNickster]] ([[User talk:MFNickster|talk]]) 23:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
In [[1922]], an investigation was initiated for Nihad Pasha, the commander of [[Al Jazira, Mesopotamia|El-Cezire]] front, by ''Adliye Encümeni'' (Council of Justice) of [[Grand National Assembly of Turkey]] with allegations of fraud. During a confidential convention on the issue on 22nd July, a letter of introductions by the Cabinet of Ministers and signed by [[Atatürk|Mustafa Kemal]] Pasha was read. The text was referring to the region as "Kurdistan" three times and providing Nihad Pasha with full authorities to support the local Kurdish administrations (''idare-i mahallîyeye dair teşkilâtlar'') as per the principle of [[self-determination]] (''Milletlerin kendi mukadderatlarını bizzat idare etme hakkı''), in order to gradually establish a local government in the regions inhabited by Kurds (''Kürtlerle meskûn menatık''). <ref>''TBMM Gizli Celse Zabıtları'' Vol. 3 p. 551, Ankara, 1985</ref>


== Possible minor error re Mandrake scene ==
In [[1931]], Iraqi Kurdish statesman Mihemed Emîn Zekî, while serving as the Minister of Economy in the first [[Nuri as-Said]] government, drew the boundaries of Turkish Kurdistan as: "With mountains of Ararat and the [[Georgia (country)|Georgian]] border (including the region of [[Kars]], where Kurds and Georgians live side by side) to the north, Iranian border to the east, Iraqi border to the south, and to the west, a line drawn from the west of [[Sivas]] to [[İskenderun]]. These boundaries are also in accord with those drawn by the Ottomans." <ref>Mehmet Emin Zeki, ''Kürdistan Tarihi'' p. 20, Ankara, 1992</ref> In [[1932]], Garo Sassouni, formerly a prominent figure of [[Armenian Revolutionary Federation|Dashnak]] Armenia, defined the borders of "Kurdistan proper" (excluding whole territory of [[Wilsonian Armenia]]) as: "...with a line from the south of Erzincan to [[Kharput]], incorporating [[Tunceli|Dersim]], [[Bingöl|Çarsancak]], and Malatya, including the mountains of [[Osmaniye Province|Cebel-i Bereket]] and reaching the Syrian border", also adding, "these are the broadest boundaries of Kurdistan that can be claimed by Kurds."<ref>Garo Sasuni, ''Kürt Ulusal Hareketleri ve 15. Yüzyıldan Günümüze Kürt-Ermeni İlişkileri'' p. 331, Istanbul, 1992</ref>


I believe the sentence
During 1920s and 1930s, several large scale Kurdish revolts took place in this region. The most important ones were 1) Saikh Said Rebellion in [[1925]], 2) Ararat Revolt in 1930 and 3) Dersim Revolt in [[1938]] (see [[Kurds in Turkey]]). Following these rebellions, the area of Turkish Kurdistan was put under [[martial law]] and a large number of the Kurds were displaced. Government also encouraged resettlement of [[Albanians in Kosovo|Albanians from Kosovo]] and [[Assyrians]] in the region to change the population makeup. These events and measures led to a long-lasting mutual distrust between Ankara and the Kurds <ref>C. Dahlman, ''The Political Geography of Kurdistan'', Eurasian Geography and Economics, Vol.43, No.4, 2002, p.279</ref>.


“Mandrake accidentally shoots Ripper, and attempts to pass it off as a suicide.”
:''For more recent Kurdish history see [[Kurds]], [[Iranian Kurdistan]], [[Turkish Kurdistan]], [[Iraqi Kurdistan]], [[Kurds in Turkey]] and [[Kurds in Syria]]''.
:''This article uses text from [[1911 Encyclopedia Britannica]]''.


is incorrect and should be excised.
===In Turkey===
[[Image:Kurdish-inhabited area by CIA (1992).jpg|225px|thumb|left|Map of Kurdish-inhabited areas]]
{{main|Kurds in Turkey|Turkish Kurdistan|Human rights in Turkey|Kurdistan Workers Party}}
About half of all Kurds live in Turkey. According to the CIA Factbook they account for 20 percent of the 70 million people of Turkey, thus numbering about 15 million people.<ref>[https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html#People CIA World Factbook]</ref> Other estimates vary between 12 to 15 million. They are predominantly distributed in the southeastern corner of the country.<ref name="coucileu">''[http://assembly.coe.int/Main.asp?link=/Documents/WorkingDocs/Doc06/EDOC11006.htm The cultural situation of the Kurds],'' <cite>A report by Lord Russell-Johnston, Council of Europe, July 2006</cite>.</ref>


I recall that Ripper goes into the bathroom and we then hear the report of a .45 as he commits suicide.
The best available estimate of the number of persons in Turkey speaking a [[Kurdish language|Kurdish]] dialect is about five million (1980). About 3,950,000 others speak Northern Kurdish ([[Kurmanji]]) (1980).<ref>[http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=TRA Ethnologue census of languages in Asian portion of Turkey]</ref> While population increase suggests that the number of speakers has grown, it is also true that use of the language has been discouraged in Turkish cities, and that many fewer ethnic Kurds live in the countryside where the language has traditionally been used. The number of speakers is clearly less than the 15 million or so persons who identify themselves as ethnic Kurds.


I have a Laserdisc of the movie. Unfortunately, I’ve been confined Strangelove-like to a wheelchair for the last four months and can’t rescreen it.
From 1915 to 1918, Kurds struggled to end Ottoman rule over their region. They were encouraged by [[Woodrow Wilson]]'s support for non-Turkish nationalities of the empire and submitted their claim for independence to the [[Paris Peace Conference, 1919|Paris Peace Conference]] in 1919. The [[Treaty of Sèvres]] stipulated creation of an autonomous Kurdish state in 1920, but the subsequent [[Treaty of Lausanne]] in 1923 failed to mention Kurds. In 1925 and 1930, Kurdish revolts were forcibly suppressed.
[[Image:Kurdish mother & child Van 1973.jpg|thumb|Kurdish mother and child, [[Van]], 1973]]
Following these events, the existence of distinct ethnic groups like Kurds in Turkey was officially denied and any expression by the Kurds of their ethnic identity was harshly repressed. Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language &ndash; although widespread &ndash; was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the [[European Union|EU]], music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions). Additionally, education in Kurdish is now permitted though only in private institutions.


So if I am in error, what more perfect and ironic excuse could I have?
As late as 1994, however, [[Leyla Zana]], the first female Kurdish representative in Turkey's Parliament, was charged for making "separatist speeches" and sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her inauguration as an MP, she reportedly identified herself as a Kurd. [[Amnesty International]] reported that "[s]he took the oath of loyalty in [[Turkish language|Turkish]], as required by law, then added in [[Kurdish language|Kurdish]], 'I shall struggle so that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples may live together in a democratic framework.' Parliament erupted with shouts of 'Separatist!', 'Terrorist!', and 'Arrest her!'"<ref>[http://www.amnestyusa.org/action/special/zana.html Amnesty International] {{Dead link|date=October 2007}}</ref>
[[Image:Kurdish Boys Diyarbakir.jpg|thumb|left|225px|Kurdish boys, [[Diyarbakir]].]]
The Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan ([[PKK]]), also known as ''KADEK'' and ''Kongra-Gel'', is considered by the US to be a terrorist organization dedicated to creating an independent Kurdish state in a territory(traditionally referred to as [[Kurdistan]]) consisting of parts of southeastern [[Turkey]], northeastern [[Iraq]], northeastern [[Syria]] and northwestern [[Iran]]. It is an [[Ethnic nationalism|ethnic]] [[secession]]ist organization using diplomacy towards the Turkish state, but also force against military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal. ([[PKK]])was recently removed from the EU's list of terrorist organisations.


Between 1984 and 1999, the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as [[Diyarbakır]], [[Van, Turkey|Van]], and [[Şırnak]], as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations.<ref>Radu, Michael. (2001). "The Rise and Fall of the PKK", ''Orbis.'' 45(1):47-64.</ref> [[Human Rights Watch]] has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people.<ref>[http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0305/3.htm#_Toc97005223 Turkey: "Still Critical" - Introduction]</ref><ref>[http://hrw.org/reports/2002/turkey/ DISPLACED AND DISREGARDED: Turkey's Failing Village Return Program]</ref><ref>[http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0305/ Prospects in 2005 for Internally Displaced Kurds in Turkey]</ref><ref>[http://store.yahoo.com/hrwpubs/tur.html HRW Turkey Reports]<br/>''See also:'' Report D612, October, 1994, "Forced Displacement of Ethnic Kurds" (A Human Rights Watch Publication).</ref>


Regarding Sellers’ improvisations, the only scene where an actor breaks character is Peter Bull stifling a laugh as Sellers wrestles with his right arm.
[[Nelson Mandela]] refused to accept the ''[[Ataturk]] Peace Award'' in 1992 because of the oppression of the Kurds. After the rejection, Turkish press called him ''An Ugly African'' and ''Terrorist Mandela''.<ref>[http://www.aihgs.com/kemal.htm Kemalism: The Parctice of a Century], Australian Institute for Holocaust and Genocide Studies.</ref>


[[User:Purenorsk|Purenorsk]] ([[User talk:Purenorsk|talk]]) 06:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
===In Iraq===
{{main|Iraqi Kurdistan|1988 Anfal campaign}}
Kurds make around 17% of Iraq's population. They are the majority in at least three provinces in Northern Iraq which are known as [[Iraqi Kurdistan]]. Kurds also have a presence in [[Kirkuk]], [[Mosul]], [[Khanaqin]], and [[Baghdad]]. There are around 300,000 Kurds living in the Iraqi capital [[Baghdad]], 50,000 in the city of [[Mosul]] and around 100,000 Kurds living elsewhere in Southern Iraq.<ref>[http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_155.html Adherents.com: By Location]</ref> Kurds led by [[Mustafa Barzani]] were engaged in heavy fighting against successive Iraqi regimes from 1960 to 1975. In March 1970, Iraq announced a peace plan providing for Kurdish autonomy. The plan was to be implemented in four years.<ref>G.S. Harris, ''Ethnic Conflict and the Kurds'' in the Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, pp.118-120, 1977 </ref> However, at the same time, the Iraqi regime started an Arabization program in the oil rich regions of [[Kirkuk]] and [[Khanaqin]].<ref>[http://hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFALINT.htm Introduction]. Genocide in Iraq: The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds (Human Rights Watch Report, 1993).</ref> The peace agreement did not last long, and in 1974, the Iraqi government began a new offensive against the Kurds. Moreover in March 1975, Iraq and Iran signed the [[Algiers Accord]], according to which Iran cut supplies to Iraqi Kurds. Iraq started another wave of Arabization by moving Arabs to the oil fields in Kurdistan, particularly those around [[Kirkuk]].<ref>ibid., p.121</ref> Between 1975 and 1978, two-hundred thousand Kurds were deported to other parts of Iraq.<ref>M. Farouk-Sluglett, P. Sluglett, J. Stork, ''Not Quite Armageddon: Impact of the War on Iraq'', MERIP Reports, July-September 1984, p.24</ref>


:I'm watching it right now; Ripper goes into the bathroom, and Mandrake is standing outside the door holding Ripper's gun, pointed toward the door. The door closes, and a shot is heard. I was misremembering this as Mandrake firing the gun accidentally - probably because later, as Mandrake is telling Guano that Ripper shot himself, and Guano replies "while he was shaving, huh?" I somehow got the impression that he was shaving and Mandrake accidentally shot him. Sorry for the inconvenience. [[User:MFNickster|MFNickster]] ([[User talk:MFNickster|talk]]) 23:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
During the [[Iran–Iraq War]] in the 1980s, the regime implemented anti-Kurdish policies and a ''de facto'' civil war broke out. Iraq was widely-condemned by the international community, but was never seriously punished for oppressive measures such as the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians, the wholesale destruction of thousands of villages and the deportation of thousands of Kurds to southern and central Iraq. The campaign of Iraqi government against Kurds in 1988 was called ''Anfal'' ("Spoils of War"). The Anfal attacks led to destruction of two thousand villages and death of between fifty and one-hundred thousand Kurds.<ref>[http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ Genocide in Iraq: The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds]</ref>


== Addition to article ==
[[Image:Jalal Talabani Rumsfeld Rice Khalilzad.jpg|thumb|200px|The President of Iraq, [[Jalal Talabani]], meeting with U.S. officials in [[Baghdad]], Iraq, on [[April 26]], [[2006]].]]
After the Kurdish uprising in 1991 ([[Kurdish language|Kurdish]]:''Raperîn'') led by the [[Patriotic Union of Kurdistan|PUK]] and [[Kurdistan Democratic Party|KDP]], Iraqi troops recaptured the Kurdish areas and hundreds of thousand of Kurds fled to the borders. To alleviate the situation, a "safe haven" was established by the Security Council. The autonomous Kurdish area was mainly controlled by the rival parties KDP and PUK. The Kurdish population welcomed the American troops in 2003 by holding celebrations and dancing in the streets<ref>[http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/articles/031222on_onlineonly04]</ref><ref>[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83642,00.html FOXNews.com - Kurds Rejoice, But Fighting Continues in North - U.S. &amp; World<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/10/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html CNN.com - Coalition makes key advances in northern Iraq - [[April 10]], [[2003]]]</ref><ref>[http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=421832003 The Scotsman<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref>. The area controlled by [[peshmerga]] was expanded, and Kurds now have effective control in [[Kirkuk]] and parts of [[Mosul]]. By the beginning of 2006, the two Kurdish areas were merged into one unified region. A series of referendums are scheduled to be held in 2007, to determine the final borders of the Kurdish region.


Under the popular references section of this article I added that in Superbad when Seth was shown drawing numerous penises as a child a picture of a penis riding a nuclear missile is shown. This may seem crude and vuglar, but it is in fact true. To be honest, I was shocked when this was not included in that section of the article.
===In Iran===
[[Image:Snah.JPG|thumb|200px|a view of [[Sanandaj]], a major city in Iranian Kurdistan.]]
{{main|Iranian Kurdistan|History of the Kurds}}
The Kurds constitute approximately 7% of Iran's overall population. The [[Persian people|Persian]]s, Kurds, and speakers of other [[Indo-European]] languages in Iran are descendants of the [[Aryan]] tribes that began migrating from Central Asia into what is now Iran in the 2nd millennium BC.<ref name="autogenerated1">[http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-230041/Iran Iran: Ethnic Groups], [[Encyclopaedia Britannica]].</ref> According to some sources, "some Kurds in Iran have resisted the Iranian government's efforts, both before and after the revolution of 1979, to [[Cultural assimilation|assimilate]] them into the mainstream of national life and, along with their fellow Kurds in adjacent regions of [[Iraq]] and [[Turkey]], has sought either regional [[autonomy]] or the outright establishment of an [[Independence|independent]] Kurdish state".<ref name="autogenerated1" /> While other sources state that "most of the freedoms Turkish Kurds have been eager to spill blood over have been available in Iran for years; Iran constitutionally recognizes the Kurds' language and minority ethnic status, and there is no taboo against speaking Kurdish in public."<ref>[http://www.slate.com/id/2143492/?nav=fo Meet the Kurdish guerrillas who want to topple the Tehran regime. - By Graeme Wood - Slate Magazine]</ref> .


bucpride [[User:Bucpride|Bucpride]] ([[User talk:Bucpride|talk]]) 21:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
In the 17th century, a large number of Kurds were deported by [[Shah Abbas I]] to [[Khorasan]] in Eastern Iran and forcibly resettled in the cities of [[Quchan]] and [[Birjand]], while others migrated to [[Afghanistan]] where the took refuge.<ref name="autogenerated2">A People Without a Country: The Kurds and Kurdistan By Gérard Chaliand, Abdul Rahman Ghassemlou, Marco Pallis, pg. 205</ref> The Kurds of Khorasan, numbering around 700,000, still use the [[Kurmanji]] Kurdish dialect.<ref name="coucileu"/><ref>[http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/f52bcc85689b17998025679f003f5a36?Opendocument Fifteenth periodic report of States parties due in 1998: Islamic Republic of Iran]</ref>
During the 19th and 20th centuries, successive Iranian governments crushed Kurdish revolts led by Kurdish notables such as Shaikh Ubaidullah (against [[Qajars]] in 1880) and [[Simko Shikak|Simko]] (against [[Pahlavi]]s in the 1920s).<ref name="pariah_minority">[http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2267/is_1_70/ai_102140955 Are Kurds a pariah minority?]</ref>


:And you know this is related to ''Dr. Strangelove'' because of what? (IOW, we need a source on this). [[User:Daniel Case|Daniel Case]] ([[User talk:Daniel Case|talk]]) 14:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
In January 1946, during the Soviet occupation of north-western Iran, the Soviet-backed Kurdish [[Republic of Mahabad]] declared independence in parts of Iranian Kurdistan. Nevertheless, the Soviet forces left Iran in May 1946, and the self-declared republic fell to the Iranian army after only a few months and the president of the republic [[Qazi Muhammad]] was hanged publicly in [[Mahabad]]. After the [[1953 Iranian coup d'état]], [[Mohammad Reza Pahlavi]] became more autocratic and suppressed most opposition including Kurdish political groups seeking greater rights for Iranian Kurds. He also prohibited any teaching of the Kurdish language.<ref name="pariah_minority"/>


You need a source on this? Watch the scene in Superbad where Seth is shown drawing the penises as a child as part of his "problem." And it's related to Dr. Strangelove because of the scene in that movie where the Major is riding a nuclear missile...I mean it's pretty obvious I think, do you need me to paint you a freaking picture? Come on bro, seriously?
After the Iranian revolution, intense fighting occurred between militant Kurdish groups and the Islamic Republic between 1979 and 1982. In August 1979, [[Ruhollah Khomeini]] declared a "[[jihad|holy war]]" against the Kurdish rebels seeking autonomy or independence, and ordered the Armed Forces to move to the Kurdish areas of Iran in order to push the Kurdish rebels out and restore central rule to the country.<ref>The Security of Southwest Asia by Zalmay Khalilza, page 191, University of Michigan Publishing </ref> An image of a firing squad of Revolutionary Guards executing Kurdish prisoners around [[Sanandaj]] gained international fame and won the [[Pulitzer Prize]] in 1980,and there is also other images available of Kurdish militants capturing the supporters of the Iranian regime.<ref>[http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_VPage&VBID=2K1HZO4B4E8MI&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=6&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Story&IID=2TYRYDZ8H2EP&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image A photo] by [[Abbas (photographer)|Abbas Attar]],[[Magnum Photos]]</ref> The [[Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps]] fought to reestablish government control in the Kurdish regions; as a result, around ten thousand Kurds were killed.<ref name="pariah_minority"/> Since 1983, the Iranian government has maintained control over the Iranian Kurdistan.<ref>[http://www.alefbe.com/revolution6.htm alefbe.com]</ref> Frequent unrest and the occasional military crackdown have occurred since the 1990s.<ref>[http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130432005?open&of=ENG-IRN Iran: Amnesty International calls for an urgent investigation into the killing of demonstrators].</ref>


:It's still [[WP:NOR|original research]] without a source. It may be obvious to you and me, but to include it you need a quote from a notable author making the comparison - we can't engage in film criticism ourselves here. [[User:MFNickster|MFNickster]] ([[User talk:MFNickster|talk]]) 00:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
In Iran, Kurds express their cultural identity freely, but have no self-government or administration. As in all parts of Iran, membership of a non-governmental political party is punishable by imprisonment or even death. Kurdish [[human rights]] activists in Iran have been threatened by Iranian authorities in connection with their work.<ref>[http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130102005?open&of=ENG-370 Iran: Threats against Kurdish human rights defenders must stop]</ref><ref>[http://www.pdk-iran.org/english/doc/unhrc_iran_2002_minorities.htm Status of minorities]</ref> Following the killing of Kurdish opposition activist [[Shivan Qaderi]] and two other Kurdish men by Iranian security forces in [[Mahabad]] on [[July 9]] [[2005]], six weeks of riots and protests erupted in Kurdish towns and villages throughout Eastern Kurdistan. Scores were killed and injured, and an untold number arrested without charge. The Iranian authorities have also shut down several major Kurdish newspapers and arrested editors and reporters. Among those was [[Roya Toloui]], a [[woman's rights]] activist and head of the ''Rasan'' ("Rising") newspaper in [[Sanandaj|Sine]], who was tortured for two months for alleged involvement in the organization of peaceful protests throughout Kurdistan province.<ref>[http://web.amnesty.org/wire/October2005/Iran Amnesty International<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> According to the [[International Crisis Group]], Kurds, who live in the least developed part of Iran, pose the most serious internal problem for Iran to resolve, and their apparent success in self-rule fuels their demands for greater autonomy.<ref>[http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/world/slot1_081006.html Iran's Waning Human Rights] (''[[The New York Times]]'')</ref>

===In Syria===
{{main|Kurds in Syria}}
[[Image:Saladinstatue.JPG|thumb|left|150px|A statue of [[Saladin]] at the [[Damascus]] citadel.]]
Kurds and other Non-Arabs account for 10% of [[Syria]]'s population, a total of around 1.9 million people.<ref>[http://www.gazetteer.de/wg.php?x=1136895927&men=gpro&lng=en&des=gamelan&dat=200&geo=-106&srt=pnan&col=aohdqcfbeimg&geo=0 World Gazetteer]</ref> This makes them the largest ethnic minority in the country. They are mostly concentrated in the northeast and the north, but there are also significant Kurdish populations in Aleppo and Damascus. Kurds often speak Kurdish in public, unless all those present do not. Kurdish human rights activists are mistreated and persecuted.<ref>[http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=80256DD400782B8480256F63006435DB Syria: End persecution of human rights defenders and human rights activists].</ref> No political parties are allowed for any group, Kurdish or otherwise.

Techniques used to suppress the ethnic identity of Kurds in [[Syria]] include various bans on the use of the [[Kurdish language]], refusal to register children with Kurdish names, the replacement of Kurdish place names with new names in [[Arabic]], the prohibition of businesses that do not have Arabic names, the prohibition of Kurdish private schools, and the prohibition of books and other materials written in Kurdish.<ref name="Syria_Silenced_Kurds">[http://hrw.org/reports/1996/Syria.htm Syria: The Silenced Kurds]</ref><ref>[http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/01/13/syria9812.htm Essential Background: Overview of human rights issues in Syria]. Human Rights Watch, 31-12-2004.</ref> Having been denied the right to Syrian nationality, around three-hundred thousand Kurds have been deprived of any social rights, in violation of international law.<ref>[http://voanews.com/english/archive/2005-09/2005-09-02-voa15.cfm?CFID=46444555&CFTOKEN=26238763 Syria's Kurds Struggle for Rights]</ref><ref name="themedialine_12568">[http://themedialine.org/news/news_detail.asp?NewsID=12568 The Media Line]</ref> As a consequence, these Kurds are in effect trapped within Syria.<ref name="Syria_Silenced_Kurds"/> In February 2006, however, sources reported that Syria was now planning to grant these Kurds citizenship.<ref name="themedialine_12568"/>

On [[March 12]], [[2004]], beginning at a stadium in [[Qamishli]] (a largely Kurdish city in northeastern Syria), clashes between Kurds and Syrians broke out and continued over a number of days. At least thirty people were killed and more than 160 injured. The unrest spread to other Kurdish towns along the northern border with Turkey, and then to [[Damascus]] and [[Aleppo]].<ref>[http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/03/19/syria8132.htm Syria: Address Grievances Underlying Kurdish Unrest]</ref><ref>[http://www.amude.net/serhildan/index.html Serhildana 12ê Adarê ya Kurdistana Suriyê].</ref>

===In Afghanistan===
Kurds had been living in regions bordering modern day Afghanistan since the 1500s notably in [[Khorasan (Province)|north eastern Iran]] where the [[Safavid]] ruler [[Shah Abbas]] exiled thousands of Kurds.<ref>Knowledge, Culture, and Power: International Perspectives on Literacy as Policy and Practice By Peter Freebody, Anthony R. Welch, pg.40</ref> Many of those who were exiled ultimately made their way into [[Afghanistan]], taking residence in [[Herat]] and other cities of western Afghanistan. The Kurdish colony in Afghanistan numbered some tens of thousands during the 16th century.<ref name="autogenerated2" /> Some [[Kurds]] held high governmental positions within Afghanistan, such as [[Ali Mardan Khan]] who was appointed the governor of [[Kabul]] in 1641.<ref>The Encyclopaedia of Islam: Supplement : Fascicules 1-2, By Clifford Edmund Bosworth, E. Van Donzel, B. Lewis, pg. 63</ref> The Kurds devotedly sided with the Afghans during their conflicts with the [[Safavid Empire]], and in their subsequent conflicts with other regional powers.<ref>The Sword of Persia: Nader Shah, from Tribal Warrior to Conquering Tyrant, By Michael Axworthy, pg. 88</ref> The number of Kurds currently in Afghanistan is difficult to calculate, though one figure notes that there are approximately 200,000.<ref name="kurdorama">''[http://www.institutkurde.org/en/kurdorama/ The Kurdish Diaspora],'' <cite>Institut Kurde de Paris</cite> (Paris: Institut Kurde de Paris, 2006), <nowiki>http://www.institutkurde.org/en/kurdorama/</nowiki>.</ref> It remains unclear however whether the Kurds of Afghanistan have retained the Kurdish language.

===In Armenia===
{{see also|Kurdish-Armenian relations}}
Between the 1930s and 1980s, [[Armenia]] was a part of the [[Soviet Union]], within which Kurds, like other ethnic groups, had the status of a protected minority. Armenian Kurds were permitted their own state-sponsored newspaper, radio broadcasts and cultural events. During the conflict in [[Nagorno-Karabakh]], many non-Yazidi Kurds were forced to leave their homes. Following the end of the [[Soviet Union]], Kurds in Armenia were stripped of their cultural privileges and most fled to [[Russia]] or Western Europe.<ref name=meho>[http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/meho/meho-bibliography-2001.pdf Kurds and Kurdistan: A General Background], p.22</ref>

===In Azerbaijan===
{{main|Kurdistan Autonomous Oblast}}
In 1920, two Kurdish-inhabited areas of Jewanshir (capital [[Kalbajar]]) and eastern Zangazur (capital [[Lachin]]) were combined to form the [[Kurdistan Okrug]] (or "Red Kurdistan"). The period of existence of the Kurdish administrative unit was brief and did not last beyond 1929. Kurds subsequently faced many repressive measures, including deportations. As a result of the conflict in [[Nagorno-Karabakh]], many Kurdish areas have been destroyed and more than 150,000 Kurds have been deported since 1988.<ref name=meho/>

===Diaspora===
[[Image:Feleknas Uca.jpg|thumb|150px|left|[[Feleknas Uca]], [[Member of the European Parliament|MEP]] from [[Germany]].]]
According to a report by the [[Council of Europe]], approximately 1.3 million Kurds live in [[Western Europe]]. The earliest immigrants were Kurds from Turkey, who settled in [[Germany]], [[Austria]], the [[Benelux]] countries, [[Great Britain]], [[Switzerland]] and [[France]] during the 1960s. Successive periods of political and social turmoil in the Middle East during 1980s and 1990s brought new waves of Kurdish refugees, mostly from Iran and Iraq under Saddam Hussein, came to Europe.<ref name="coucileu"/> In recent years, many Kurdish asylum seekers from both Iran and Iraq have settled in the United Kingdom (especially in the town of [[Dewsbury]] and in some northern areas of [[London]]), which has sometimes caused media controversy over their right to remain.<ref>[http://www.dewsburyreporter.co.uk/news?articleid=2737475 MP: Failed asylum seekers must go back - Dewsbury Reporter<!-- Bot generated title -->]</ref> There have been tensions between Kurds and the established Muslim community in Dewsbury,<ref>[http://www.dewsburyreporter.co.uk/news/39I-will-not-be-muzzled39.2955186.jp 'I will not be muzzled' – Malik]</ref><ref>[http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/dewsbury UK Polling Report Election Guide: Dewsbury]</ref> which is home to very traditional mosques such as the [[Markazi mosque|Markazi]].

There was substantial immigration of Kurds into North America, who are mainly political refugees and immigrants seeking economic opportunity. An estimated 100,000 Kurds are known to live in the [[United States]], with 50,000 in [[Canada]] and less than 15,000 in [[Australia]].

==See also==
*[[Corduene]]
*[[Shaddadid]]
*[[Marwanid]]
*[[Annazid]]
*[[Ayyubids]]
*[[Ardalan]]
*[[Republic of Ararat]]
*[[Republic of Mahabad]]
*[[Kingdom of Kurdistan]]
*[[Kurdistan]]
*[[Kurdish language|Kurdish]]
*[[Kurds]]
*[[Iraqi Kurdistan]]
*[[Turkish Kurdistan]]
*[[Iranian Kurdistan]]
*[[Timeline of the Kurdish uprising]]

==References==
<references/>

==External links==
*[http://www.institutkurde.org/en/institute/who_are_the_kurds.php A Brief Survey of the History of the Kurds], by Kendal Nezan, President of the Kurdish Institute of Paris.
*[http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SBL/is_1-2_19/ai_n15954362 Yezidism: historical roots], International Journal of Kurdish Studies, January 2005.
*[http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/kurds.html The forced conversion of the Jewish community of Persia and the beginnings of the Kurds]
*[http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/religion/judaism/judaism.html History of Judaism in Kurdistan]
*[http://www.institutkurde.org/ Kurdish Institut] Kurdish language, history, books and latest news articles.
*[http://www.iranica.com/articles/v7/v7f4/v7f446.html Battle of DimDim in Encyclopaedia Iranica]
*[http://www.iranica.com/articles/v7/v7f3/v7f342.html Deportations, part III. In the Islamic Period], Encyclopaedia Iranica.

[[Category:History of the Kurds| ]]
[[Category:Kurdish people]]

[[fa:تاریخ کردها]]
[[ku:Dîroka Kurdistanê]]

Revision as of 10:12, 11 October 2008

Pie scene

"The scene was never released to the general public and not included in the laserdisc and DVD releases of Dr. Strangelove." Then why is the source for the screenshot a DVD release of it? Recury 20:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


They don't show the full scene on the DVD, just clips, which is where the screenshot would've come from142.162.147.130 (talk) 10:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible misquotation

I think the quote in the Plot section that states "ten to twenty million tops... depending on the breaks" is not what it actually says in the movie. I believe the last word should be "breeze" because a) the breeze will affect where the nuclear fallout will go, thus determining the casualty count b) breaks does not make sense in this context.

However, I can not find any way to confirm this. On this website (http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/0055.html) it says "breaks". Perhaps the quote should be taken out altogether because it doesn't even really fit in to the rest of the paragraph.Lordofhyperspace 06:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

"Breaks" is a common American colloquialism meaning fortunes or luck, i.e., "man, that's a bad break you got there." Turgidson is saying that, if the US were lucky, they'd be looking at about 10 million dead; if they were unlucky, it'd be about 20 million dead. Luck, in this case, would be American bombs hitting on target and working as designed or better with few, if any, aircraft being shot down before reaching their targets, and the Soviet response getting minimal weapons past American air defenses, and those being inaccurate or defective; bad luck, of course, would be just the opposite.
I don't see any real need to remove the quotation; it accurately shows both the claim being made by Turgidson, and Turgidson's way of thinking--that suffering ten to twenty million American dead would be acceptable losses in return for destroying the Soviet Union, and he's completely disconnected from the thought that these are real people, not just numbers on a sheet of paper. Rdfox 76 12:24, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Weird, I have never heard breaks used that way before. Thanks for the info. Lordofhyperspace 17:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
"77. the breaks, Informal. the way things happen; fate: Sorry to hear about your bad luck, but I guess those are the breaks."[1] --Jtir (talk) 09:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Which physicist?

Re: "Possibly inspired by Edward Teller ("father" of the H-bomb) and Nicholas Metropolis (a wheelchair-bound physicist prone to outbursts of violent temper)" — I can find reference to Teller's difficult and volatile personality, but not of Metropolis. Can't find references or images to either of them being in a wheelchair. Perhaps this is the chairbound disguise of Clare Quilty, Sellers' Lolita character which prefigures Dr Strangelove in the film. Anyone? If there's no objection I'll clean it up later Julia Rossi 04:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of refs for Teller, and although afaik he didn't use a wheelchair, he did have a well-known walking difficulty (a problem from childhood with one leg). I don't know about Metropolis though. AdamSmithee 13:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Teller I can buy. Metropolis I cannot. Wikipedia's own article on Metropolis has him skiing regularly at age 70, an unlikely avocation for a wheelchair-bound scientist. Nor is there any indication of wheelchair use, or violent temper, in the links from the Wikipedia article -- including his Los Alamos obituary.128.165.87.144 22:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if there is confusion between Nicholas Metropolis and Fritz Lang's movie Metropolis. That movie has a mad scientist, Rotwang, who also wears a glove. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In the mid-1950s, von Neumann [one of the father's of game theory] left RAND to join the Atomic Energy Commission, a decision-making position which, as an immigrant, he felt extremely honored to hold. He did not serve for very long, as he became ill shortly after assuming the position (although the gravity of his condition was kept secret, and he remained publicly active for about a year). By the end of 1955, however, he was confined to a wheelchair and attended AEC meetings thus. This has been construed as (possible) proof that von Neumann was the model for Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove. Author William Poundstone has pondered:

Was the wheelchair-bound von Neumann a model for the title character of Stanley Kubrick's 1963 film Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb? Strangelove, 'Director of Weapons Research and Development,' is confined to a wheelchair. He speaks of having commissioned a defense study from the 'Bland Corporation.' As is often the case with satire, a number of models have been suggested (especially Werner von Braun and Edward Teller), and there is no reason to think the character was based on any specific individual. see more at: http://mayet.som.yale.edu/coopetition/vN.html

Von Neumann was not an advocate of the kinds of views that are satirized in Strangelove, so I think he is unlikely to have been the model. Also, I'm not sure how many people were or are aware that he was confined to a wheelchair for a time. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 22:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
John Milnor also thinks that Dr. Strangelove could have been inspired by von Neumann --- see http://www.ams.org/notices/199810/milnor.pdf (at the end of the first page). After all, why is the wheelchair that important? --Cokaban (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions a possible connection to Kissinger. It can be verified that Kissinger gave no press conferences during Nixon's first term. I remember reading at the start of Nixon's second term the idea that they had kept Kissinger out of the public eye precisely because his accent would remind people of the Strangelove character. In the first year of Nixon's second term, Kissinger was finally rollled out for the press. F.Baube —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.251.125 (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

"Trivia" vs. "Miscellaneous facts"

Regardless of the dogmatic insistence otherwise, there is a distinct difference between "trivia" and "miscellaenous facts." "Trivia" is, by defintion, trivial -- unimportant, minor, not significant. A trivial fact is true but uninteresting, uninformative, inapt or unworthy of inclusion, and any list of such facts should be removed -- not simply tagged but gotten rid of.

A "miscellaneous fact" is something else entirely. It is a fact that merits inclusion because it fufills the Wikipedian requirements for such, but which is either not easily connected to the existing body of the article, or for which the necessary connective material would be longer than justifiable. A list of such facts is not "trivia", it's a list of stuff that deserves inclusion, but which just don't fit easily into the article. To slap a tag on such a list, condemning them is unfair.

Not only that, but the purpose of the tag eludes me. If an editor believes that the facts aren't worthy of inclusion, he or she should remove them, not simply label them. If the facts are worthy of inclusion, then they're not "trivia" and the tag is unwarranted.

In this case, the tag is completely unwarranted, and I'm removing it for that reason. Please do not restore it until you have made your case here and a consensus has been reached on this discussion page concerning its applicability to this specific list of facts. If there are facts on the list which are trivial, perhaps we can reach agreement on them and they can be removed. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 06:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I get where you are coming from. you are right that some of these miscellaneous facts are in fact noteworthy. However a bulletpoint list of them is sloppy, and invites people to add less notable things into the article...and who can blaim them, they have a list of disconjoined statements that they are mearly adding to.

my question is: how do these statements, that don't fit the flow of the article and can't be included inside the article without a major rework of the existing body, justify inclusion into this article? The reason I placed the tag there is because it calls for editors to work the bullet list into the main body. if it doesn't fit into the main body, then how does it fit into the article itself? (note that the body of the article, is in fact the article itself).

Personaly I believe that if it dosn't fit, it dosn't belong. and I consider bullet points in wikipedia sloppy editing.

please note that the tag only calls for people to try and work the list into the article, and I didn't delete this section. I am going to put the tag back, I have done as you asked and posted my reasons and I hope we can make this work and get a better article from it. Coffeepusher (talk) 07:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I have re read the list, and I don't thing it actually differs from a trivia section. "'Peace is Our Profession' was the actual motto of the Strategic Air Command....on her 90'th birthday the audiance started laughing...Major Kong's B-52, The Leper Colony, is a direct tribute...The science officer character in the Muppet Show skit known as Pigs in Space...Dame Vera Lynn, in an interview on the BBC that celebrated her 90th birthday..." that and there are only 2 referances for 11 bullets, which makes it uncited information...and in the case of the Raising Arizona bullet dangerously close to origional reserch. outside of cocktail partys, how does this information help me better understand Dr. Strangelove?Coffeepusher (talk) 07:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, please, but you seem to be missing the point here. I've instigated a discussion about this, and requested that you not restore the tag until that discussion has reached a consensus and yet you have once again put the tag on the list! Since a discussion is underway, you should not anticipate the result of that discussion until it is concluded. Please do not restore the tag until we've talked a bit about this.

Now, to your substantive points -- your prejudice against bulleted lists is unfounded, they are not sloppy editing at all. In some situations -- such as this one, with a list inclusion-worthy but unrelated facts -- a bulleted list is, in fact, the best and clearest way to present the material.

I'm not sure how to respond to your question about how a particular fact "Helps you better understand" Dr. Strangelove -- that would be up to you, I would think, but, in any case, helping you better understand the subject isn't the criteria for inclusion. (How does knowing who played the Russian ambassador help you better understand the film? It doesn't.) These facts are notable, relevant, interesting and informative, and therefore merit inclusion.

Tags are, I'm afraid to say, widely overused on Wikipedia, especially so since they are almost entirely ineffective in doing what they purport to do, which is to prompt someone to edit the material. Look around the project and you'll easily find tags that have been in place for a long, long, time without anyone doing a damn thing about the underlying material. A tag is, essentially, goading someone else to do work that you feel should be done, and, as such, they are sloppy editing. Not only that, they disfigure the page and make it more difficult for the user to utilize the article. Of what possible use can it be for a reader of Wikipedia to know that "trivia sections are discouraged" on Wikipedia? It tells them absolutely nothing about the subject they've come to find out about, which is why they're reading the page in the first place.

I look forward to you response here, and hope to engage you in helpful discussion so that we can come to some mutual meeting of the minds, but I remind you, while the discussion is ongoing, please don't restore the tag that we're discussing here. Thanks. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 08:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me how this imporves the article.
I could easily take a few of the bullets and encorperate them into the article, but the reast seem to be uncited popular culture references. this opens a trap door to a bottemless pit. baced on the noteriaty of the items on this list we could include "In one episode of the animated telivision show "The Tick" a stock mad scientist was modeled after Dr. Strangelove who made giant pants to lure a rampaging monster" "Phantam hand syndrome has the nickname "Dr. Stranglove hand"" "Ride The Bomb is a phrase used to mean follow a task to your mutual distruction" etc. That is why I don't understand your distinction between trivia and this list, it appears to be up to you as to what word you use.
I will go ahead and see if I can encorperate some of the cited references into the body of the article, since that is your end goal...keeping them in the article. Coffeepusher (talk) 17:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
You may have noticed that I have already started doing that.

Unlike you, I have no objection to cultural references being enumerated in Wikipedia articles -- it's simply a matter of keeping them under control, which is no different from editing an article for any other reason. I really can't understand why people seem so frightened about this -- I've never seen so many "slippery slope" arguments as when one discusses cultural references. Weird, it's as if people are afraid of our culture somehow slipping into an encyclopedia, a large part of which is devoted to cultural items. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 17:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Please stop inserting material until you've seen what I've already done as part of a general clean-up of the article -- you're duplicating effort. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 17:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
hehe! I don't usually get called on when I use fallicys in logic, they ususaly slip by. I actually agree that popular culture should be included...within reason. I was thinking about turning the Micilanious section into a "Popular culture references" section. what do you think?Coffeepusher (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I think that would be OK -- we'd just have to find place for the 3 non-cultural reference items. I'll take a look at that now. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 18:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've moved all but the three cultural references into footnotes, and changed the title of the section, plus I think I'm finished with the general copyedit and clean-up of the article, pending another look-see later today. (I find I need to lay off for a while and then look again.) Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 18:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Groeteschele

Groeteschele was Jewish not ex-Nazi in the book Failsafe, which was published in 1962 not 1960, I believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.77.74 (talk) 04:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

suggest splitting off list of references to CRM114 into a separate "list of" article

Personally I dislike these "lists of" because they are incoherent, tend to grow "ad infinitum", and clutter the article with barely relevant info. I suggest following the example of THX 1138, which split off such a list into 1138 (number). --Jtir (talk) 00:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me take a look at that article. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 02:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Very good suggestion, I've made the move and just finished fixing the redirects (hope I got them all). Now, we'll see if anyone objects to have the material there. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I didn't think to check for an article called CRM114, but there it is. ISTM, that the main CRM114 article should be about the device in the film, and the article on the computer program should be renamed to, say, CRM114 (program). It might be a good idea to add a screenshot, so that the exact punctuation, "CRM114" vs. "CRM-114", is verifiable. BTW, another article, Room 101, is split off from 1984 (novel). (FWIW, CRM113 is an earlier, little known model of the device. :-)) --Jtir (talk) 14:33, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I have proposed renaming CRM114 to CRM114 (program) at Talk:CRM114. --Jtir (talk) 19:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Slim Pickens and whether he really did know he was in a comedy

This is mainly a response to Ed Fitzgerald but I felt it was best to put it here as it relates mainly to the article. I'm sure Ed will see the comment very quickly.

Ed, this article is not your personal property. Wikipedia is built on consensus. The point we are disputing is only a minor part of the article but you will brook no dissent from your opinion. I removed a statement that I think (as I have noticed before) is ridiculous. You put it back. I'm not interested in edit-warring so I left this. I put in a {{Fact}} tag but even that is too much for you - you removed the {{Fact}} tag twice. You may think it is perfectly plausible that Slim Pickens didn't know he was working on a comedy but I do not. You opinion is not the only opinion that has value. If you think Slim Pickens did not know this was a comedy then take up the challenge I laid down and find a reliable source for the claim.

This is exactly the denial of consensus which brings criticism down on Wikipedia from organisations like The Register. Anyway I'm annoyed that you won't even consider an alternative view point on such a minor issue. This sort of thing annoys me and I'm on a Wikibreak effective immediately.

Oh, BTW, my wife is an actress and film producer so you aren't the only person who has hung around actors. Robert Brockway (talk) 03:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

See my comment below, written before I read this. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Robert: You bring up several interesting topics, worthy of a more specific response, so let me tackle them one by one.

Ownership I full understand that no one "owns" an article on Wikipedia -- a fact I finally got through my thick skull when my lawyer wouldn't let me add one to my will. But let's talk reality here, if someone works hard on an article, puts in a lot of effort, shapes it, researches it, smooths it, whatever, then certainly there develops a feeling of protectiveness about it. I've compared it to the feeling a parent has for their children, in weaker form, of course. I don't "own" my kids, but I'm protective of them, and want the best for them, and may have to be convinced that someone else wants the best for them too. And that's important, because the reality is that if it weren't for the sense of -- let's call it "stewardship" -- that people feel for the articles they work on, Wikipedia would be in constant danger of devolving into a heaping mass of vandalism, high school hijinks and irrelevancies. It's a somewhat under-acknowldged fact of Wikipedian life that the project is dependent on the feeling of attachment that people get for the pages they contribute to. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 04:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus This can be a rather hot-button subject, so I'm hesitant to get too deeply into it, but let me say that on Wikipedia, "consensus" ain't all it's cracked up to be. Consensus in the real world takes a fairly long time to develop, and issue may pass through numerous phases of intense conflict and remission before they finally drift into some sort of consensus position. It takes time for consensus to come about, and almost always on Wikipedia, that sort of time is not provided. Sooner, rather than later, someone wraps up the discussion, and it's a undeniable fact that in this system the opinion of the adminstrator who closes out a discussion is what determines what "consensus" is. Now, obviously, if the discussion is totally lopsided, that's one thing, the admnstrator won't be able to skew the result to that degree, but in many (maybe evenmost) cases, the discussion will be fairly evenly balanced, which gives the administrator the ability to decide which way to go. Add to this the fact that the people participating in the discussion are those that just happen to drop by, and what you get is a rather bizarre system in which "consensus" means something like "a super-majority of the random selection of people discussing the topic, with the administrator as super-user whose opinion counts more than anyone else." To say the least, that's a strange way of running any complex system, but that's pretty much what goes on here.

The other serious problem with consensus is, of course, that reaching a "consensus" about something (however that is decided in the particular situation) is no guarantee of factual accuracy, since many facts are absolute and not relative to one's opinion. Consensual agreement can be helpful in matters of opinion (which this dispute between us is, essentially), but not so much when it comes down to what's real in the real world. So it's a puzzlement to me how anyone can expect an encyclopedia, whose purpose in the world is to be factually accurate, to survive when the engine that drives it is "consensus." Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 04:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Viewpoint This is not a general point, but more specific to this issue. I certainly respect that you were able to cite your wife's occupation as a trump card to my argument from authority (more power to you!), but let me say this: as the husband of an actress, I assume you see things more or less from her point of view. My experience has been as a stage manager in the legit theatre for 30+ years, and my observation of the eccentricities and (cough) deficiencies of actors, dancers, musicians and other performing artists may be somewhat more acute, since I have to deal with the practical repercussions of those character traits on an ongoing basis. In other words, I've seen a lot of stuff in my day, and it leads me to feel that Slim Pickens not realizing the movie was a comedy is not at all an unreasonable thing -- especially if his agent made the arrangements, told him where to go on what day, and Pickens only read the part of the script he was in. (Assuming that the shooting script he was given even had any other section in it, since actors are often deliberately left out of the loop by directors in order that their performances not be skewed by knowledge their character wouldnt' have.) I'm not saying it had to happen that way, I'm just saying that my life experience makes it all quite believable, since I've seen thing some things that were very similar happen.

Now, obviously, I could be wrong, but if you follow the logic of my comment below, about the process of adding a "fact" tag, it really should be incumbent on the person who doubts the fact to make the effort to find pry open the top of the box and shed some light on the issue, and not vice versa. I have no particular problem with the statement as written, but you do, and so it should be you who delves into it to see what's what. If you come up with evidence one way or the other, that's great, I certainly bow to that reality. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 04:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"fact" tags

There are approximately 3 gazillion facts in Wikipedia, and 2.84 of them are unreferenced. An unreferenced fact is the norm, not a rarity. If someone comes across a fact they disbelieve or are suspicious of, they should research the question. If they find evidence that the fact is untrue, then they should remove the "fact", if, instead, they can't find any particular evidence to support the fact, then they are justified in putting a "fact" tag on it. Slapping a fact tag on something you question without researching it is simply asking that someone else check out your suspicions. It's sloppy editing. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct punctuation of CRM-114

I've just check my copy of Strangelove, and, in fact, the device is neither "CRM-114" or "CRM114" but is designated "C.R.M. 114". No hyphen, initials after each letter, space between the letters and the number.

However, I do not suggest you change the name of the article (especially since I just went throught and changed all the links so there wouldn't be any double-redirects). Instead, a series of redirect pages will do it. Also, if you haven't already made a disambiguation page for CRM114/CRM-114, you should probably do that -- I know how much you like to have dab's that conform to spec, so I'm sure you'll enjoy that. (grin) Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 03:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Size of images

I know there is a school of thought which holds that images should be placed in articles in thumbnail form, without hardcoding the size, which allows registered users to control the image size by setting the thumbnail size in his or her preferences, but I think this is antithetical to providing the encyclopedia's users with a good article layout, and also work against the long-term interests of the project.

My primary concern (as always) is with the user, and specfically not with registered users and those who are familiar with Wikipedia, but with the users who come to Wikipedia as a reference source without knowing, or wanting to know, anything about the project. They're not here to edit or register for yet another website, they're here to find out something about a particular subject. These people are our target audience, because if Wikipedia seems to them to be a good source of reliable information which is well-presented, they'll come back again, and perhaps, at some point, get more involved in the project, and they'll reccommend the site to others.

It's the "well-presented" angle that I'm aiming at here. The naive user will come to Wikipedia with no specific preference settings, and what they'll see if the images are not hardcoded with a specific size are tiny postage-stamp sized pictures which are often hard to see or difficult to make out what's in them, which, in that state, hardly contribute at all to a well-presented article - if anything, they can be said to distract from it.

If an image is included on a page, it should be shown at the minimum size necessary to make it visually comprehensible without overwhelming the text. In short, it should enhance the text, and neither pull focus nor appear to be an afterthought. This requires that editors take some care in the placement and arrangement of the images, as well as in their size, and speaks against leaving them in their raw thumbnail state.

I appreciate that those who want images to remain uncoded for size are doing so in the spirit of individual choice, but I think they're overlooking the fact that if Wikipedia is to be a success and become the first choice for immediate online information, it needs to serve not only the people who hang around and know its ins-and-outs, but also all those who may come by only occasionally just to dip into the well.

For these reasons I have restored the hardcoded image sizes in he article. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 16:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The trouble with manually setting thumbnail sizes is that it tends only to work for a particular monitor/screen resolution combination. What works well on a monster screen at high resolution will look terrible to someone on 800 x 600. Hence the MoS, which you are right to say is not dogma, but, like most consensuses here has a fair bit of weight and experience behind it. --John (talk) 22:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
There's also the problem of how different browsers render the page, a lesson I learned recently when fooling around with the layout of another movie article. Now, I routinely keep my browser (IE) set at a smaller size, to simulate what the page would look like on smaller monitors, then check it at full screen, then do the same with Firefox, just to be sure.

I don't mean to disrespect the Manual of Style as a repository of WikiWisdom, the majority of the time it's worthwhile following it because it makes good sense, but in general, not just in the MoS but throughtout Wikipedia, there's a lack of concern about how the user sees the articles, how we present ourselves to the world. Since Wikipedia's rules are made by editors, it's not surprising that they're biased towards editors (as opposed to users, two separate but overlapping sets), which means reistered and knowledgable users, and don't pay enough attention to user functionality, which I happen to think should be our paramount concern. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 22:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Well indeed. The MoS is founded on the user's needs in this case and I see no reason not to follow it. --John (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
No, I don't think so. It's geared to registered users, not to the casual user who moght someday become a registered user. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk / cont) 01:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I see the distinction you are making. At this point it would be best to discuss at the MoS page why you feel the recommendation is wrong. --John (talk) 02:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sexuality section

Is any of that true? The only citation is the part about who is in the picture in Playboy and a lot of it seems like it is just made up. Also, the section states that "Laputa" was the target of opportunity chosen after the plane started losing fuel. This is not the case. Laputa was the original primary target. I don't know what the target of opportunity was so I can't correct the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.227.33 (talk) 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Laputa was indeed the primary target. The nearest target of opportunity, the one they attack, is an ICBM complex at Kodlosk.[2] MFNickster (talk) 23:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Possible minor error re Mandrake scene

I believe the sentence

“Mandrake accidentally shoots Ripper, and attempts to pass it off as a suicide.”

is incorrect and should be excised.

I recall that Ripper goes into the bathroom and we then hear the report of a .45 as he commits suicide.

I have a Laserdisc of the movie. Unfortunately, I’ve been confined Strangelove-like to a wheelchair for the last four months and can’t rescreen it.

So if I am in error, what more perfect and ironic excuse could I have?


Regarding Sellers’ improvisations, the only scene where an actor breaks character is Peter Bull stifling a laugh as Sellers wrestles with his right arm.

Purenorsk (talk) 06:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm watching it right now; Ripper goes into the bathroom, and Mandrake is standing outside the door holding Ripper's gun, pointed toward the door. The door closes, and a shot is heard. I was misremembering this as Mandrake firing the gun accidentally - probably because later, as Mandrake is telling Guano that Ripper shot himself, and Guano replies "while he was shaving, huh?" I somehow got the impression that he was shaving and Mandrake accidentally shot him. Sorry for the inconvenience. MFNickster (talk) 23:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Addition to article

Under the popular references section of this article I added that in Superbad when Seth was shown drawing numerous penises as a child a picture of a penis riding a nuclear missile is shown. This may seem crude and vuglar, but it is in fact true. To be honest, I was shocked when this was not included in that section of the article.

bucpride Bucpride (talk) 21:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

And you know this is related to Dr. Strangelove because of what? (IOW, we need a source on this). Daniel Case (talk) 14:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

You need a source on this? Watch the scene in Superbad where Seth is shown drawing the penises as a child as part of his "problem." And it's related to Dr. Strangelove because of the scene in that movie where the Major is riding a nuclear missile...I mean it's pretty obvious I think, do you need me to paint you a freaking picture? Come on bro, seriously?

It's still original research without a source. It may be obvious to you and me, but to include it you need a quote from a notable author making the comparison - we can't engage in film criticism ourselves here. MFNickster (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
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