Wikipedia talk:Polling is not a substitute for discussion

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Visviva (talk | contribs) at 04:52, 10 December 2006 (repair archiving... think I need a break. :-)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Draft

Draft copied over the old wording, with some changes per the above comments. Any more comments are, of course, welcome. (Radiant) 15:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As Blue Tie points out, it's still anti-polling. I don't mind it being anti-voting, but a blanket discouragement to not use straw polls is a disservice to those who find themselves in situations where a straw poll is exactly the right choice (done right, of course). I'd suggest that language on the proper use of polls ("proper" often meaning not using one) should be part of this if it's to be a guideline. I'd also like to see it moved to something like Wikipedia:Voting (a redirect to WP:STRAW right now) or somesuch, but that's a minor quibble compared to the anti-poll problems. — Saxifrage ✎ 17:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is reasonable. I believe this is mostly about article content, or did you have something else in mind? (Radiant) 12:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I'm failing to parse that properly. Could you rephrase that? — Saxifrage ✎ 23:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oops :) I meant that it seems you believe a section on "voting on article content" is missing. E.g. list some situations where it is or is not useful. Is that correct? (Radiant) 09:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose this as a guideline or a policy

The new draft is much better than the previous draft. However, this still suffers from the same error as the previous version did:

It is anti-voting

I do not have a problem with a policy or guideline being PRO-DISCUSSION.

But I am opposed to a policy or guideline being ANTI-VOTING

And this one is. Voting, polling or whatever you want to call it is used by wikipedia for difficult things, in cases of large numbers of people being involved or where a clear decision is required. So anti-voting is inappropriate since it is an important part of wikipedia process already.

But even more fundamentally, voting and polling are methods used to develop consensus. They are methods that are used by almost ALL (I actually cannot think of any examples to the contrary) validated, scientifically developed methods for arriving at consensus... even methods that are very low in persuasive pressure and that rely mostly upon discussion ... still use voting. To be anti-voting is, to me, to be the same thing as anti-consensus. That may not be the intentional purpose but throwing out one of the most important means for arriving at consensus has that result whether intended or not.

And finally, voting provides the SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE that consensus has been achieved. It is not just someone standing up and declaring it to be so.

Thus, I oppose this as a guideline or a policy. I see it as a hammer to beat up people who want to use polls and votes for legitimate consensus building purposes. --Blue Tie 16:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Once more, this is a guideline to discourage voting, not a policy to forbid voting altogether. There is no contradiction here: this page is a documentation of the status quo, whereas your recent proposal is an attempt to amend the status quo, and if it succeeds at that, the documentation will change accordingly. If you find any statement on this page to be factually incorrect, please point it out. But we base guidelines on what does happen, not on what some believe should happen. (Radiant) 17:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok. I do not want a guideline with the specific intent to discourage voting. I consider it inherently anti-consensus. --Blue Tie 21:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Once more, if you find any statement on this page to be factually incorrect, please point it out. But we base guidelines on what does happen, not on what some believe should happen. You misunderstand consensus if you believe that discouraging voting is detrimental to consensus, or if you believe that consensus needs to be shown by voting. Indeed, for consensus, simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate. (Radiant) 00:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, for example, I disagree that decisions are based upon consensus. I realize that is what we say, but what actually happens is that way sometimes and other times it is distinctly different. I also disagree that "we" base guidelines on what does happen not on what some believe should happen. I know that is your statement, but I do not agree that it is, in fact, true. I believe that you misunderstand consensus if you believe that discouraging voting is not detrimental to consensus and I believe that you do not understand the concept of validating consensus if you do not see how a poll does this. Indeed, for consensus, simple vote counting is the single most common method described in various methods used in scientifically established methodologies for reaching group decisions. --Blue Tie 00:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
By the way... I liked your old signature better!--Blue Tie 00:30, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Simply put, Wikipedia is not based on "scientifically established methodologies for reaching group decisions". As Kim likes to say, Wikipedia is one of those things that in theory could never work - except that in practice, it does. The phrase "simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate" is part of our longstanding description of consensus. Wikipedia is a unique community in scope, purpose and structure, and it is not generally bound by whatever rules apply in more common communities. (Radiant) 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I consider it anti-consensus to reject well developed methods for arriving at consensus. And I have had a brief discussion with Kim about this quote and said that there is no reason to imagine that wikipedia, in theory cannot work. Kim essentially agreed with me. Wikipedia is not in anyway special or different from other communities of people. That is a myth. --Blue Tie 04:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • We are an order of magnitude larger, for one. Basically, you're asserting that Wikipedia cannot work well except by way of these scientifically established methodologies. I assert that it is self-evident that Wikipedia does in fact work well, and does not follow these methodologies. Thus theory is contradicted by practice. A central tenet to science is that in such cases, theory is wrong. (Radiant) 09:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We are an order of magnitude larger than what? England? Brazil? The United States? India? Switzerland? As far as working well, I think that would depend upon how you define "well". By my definition it is self evident it does NOT work well unless it uses ALL the tools for coming to consensus. And often, perhaps even usually, it does use them all. --Blue Tie 17:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Blue Tie, I do not think this should be a guideline or policy. Voting, polling, etc. are used in various circumstances on Wikipedia and are sometimes helpful. Even in a content dispute, a properly constructed poll (usually it would have to have multiple options) is better than endless discussion and warring. The same is true for determinations of policy. Even if one accepts the unworkable notion of policy being "descriptive" rather than "prescriptive," this proposal is not an accurate description of how Wikipedia works. I have seen people start votes, polls, etc. only to be told that "this is not how we do it on Wikipedia," sometimes with a citation to this very page or its predecessor. If policy or guidelines were merely descriptions of what occurs, the policy or guideline against polling would vanish simply by the act of a few editors starting polls. This is probably just another way of saying that the "policy by description" thing is a fallacy. If policy were really determined by describing what occurs in practice, there would never be a valid occasion to ever mention a policy as a reason why someone shouldn't be doing something that they are doing. The fact that the policy is not being followed would be evidence that it is not a policy at all. And I realize that one violation would not be enough, but the fact that various Wikipedia policies have to be cited so often in various discussions means that there really is no consensus for them. That does not mean they shouldn't be policy; it only confirms that to a degree, policy-making on Wikipedia is indeed prescriptive, and must be if the project is to function. 6SJ7 01:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are making the straw man that this is a policy to forbid voting. It is not. It is a guideline to discourage voting, so that it isn't used inappropriately; and your own statement admits that it is, indeed, discouraged. The statement that we can't have such a guideline because sometimes people start polls anyway is akin to saying that we can't have a spelling guide because sometimes people spell differently. You might want to read this essay which explains how guidelines are descriptive; and please point me to any statement on the (now reworded) page that is factually incorrect. (Radiant) 09:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just dropping by from village pump (policy). The content of the page doesn't feel very anti-voting to me. With comments such as "Unless one of them is clearly preferred, an approval vote is recommended to select the best-liked standard" (taken from the "Standards" section of the page), i feel this is not so much against the use of voting, but just against putting too much significance/importance on voting and vote results. To me, it's really the title of the article that is so "anti-voting". Perhaps a title such as "Discuss, don't just vote" may be better in showing how discussion is defintely better, but at the same time doesn't completely replace voting? --`/aksha 12:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Radiant, I am not making a straw man argument. It was not me who included the words "Don't vote" in the title of this essay, guideline or whatever it is. It was not me who named its predecessor "Voting is Evil." (I suspect you didn't either, but I know you did cite it somewhere before the name was changed.) The words "don't vote" somehow suggest an antipathy to voting. As I read on this talk page, others agree. As for WP:3P, I do not know whether any of the facts are incorrect. I do know that if this sentence, "Whenever the result of process does not correspond with policy, it means that the policy is outdated.", is accurate, then the "policy" in question is not really a policy. This is made even clearer by the idea of "no binding decisions." If all of that is really true, then what we are calling "policy" really isn't policy. It should be called a "practice" or something else, but then it shouldn't be cited anywhere as a reason why someone shouldn't do something. At most it can be referred to as the way things have been done in the past, but without any power to bind anyone in the future. That shouldn't be called a "policy", because it isn't one. 6SJ7 22:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly, this shouldn't be called "policy", it should be called "guideline", which is our usual term for descriptions of common practice. Guidelines are recommendations that are expected to be treated with common sense and can have exceptions with no problems. Policy is more stringent and more official. The wording of this page suggests a discouragement to, but by no means a prohibition of, voting. (Radiant) 10:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia should discourage voting, because it is seldom constructive. In particular, it is not constructive in the way that I have seen it used tediously often, in an attempt to "resolve" deep-seated controversies, or frankly any real controversies; on a wiki, votes are powerless because they can only be enforced through consensus. Unfortunately people tend to forget that WP:NOT a democracy. We need DDV (and frankly I liked the old title even better) because it warns people that voting is not a solution, except in rare cases: where (as in a value-neutral straw poll) the community is united in accepting the results of a vote, or where (as in AfD) the arbitrator closing the vote has the actual power to enforce it. Wikipedia certainly should not prohibit voting, because it is occasionally constructive in cases such as these. I agree that mentioning those exceptions would be an improvement, although per the definition of a guideline, I agree with Radiant that it isn't strictly necessary. -- Visviva 12:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Postscript: At User:Visviva/DDV, I have rearranged the page and added a few things. The specific language is not quite ready for production, but I think the three-part layout (votes that aren't votes, OK votes, not-OK votes) would help to clarify the point of this guideline. My net access is limited, so I probably won't have much time to do more work on this for a while; feel free to incorporate or ignore. -- Visviva 16:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If this is enacted as a guideline (and I don't think it should be) then the title must be changed to something more equivocal, most obviously to clearly reflect that what this is actually talking about is majority voting, and not voting per se. There is nothing wrong with voting (in fact it is essential), and we do it all the time. Whether various processes on here are actually de facto super-majority votes is another, rather tortuous issue (and whether they should be is another even more tortuous issue). Badgerpatrol 11:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • It is simply false that it's essential to decide things by vote count, or that we do this all the time (please do provide evidence of that allegation). As explained here as well as in the processes themselves, "various processes" are not in fact "de facto super-majority votes". It's not necessary to argue about what kind of votes (if any) they actually are; it is useful to educate people that (as this guideline states) they should join the discussion rather than simply stating their opinion and leaving. (Radiant) 12:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all, I'd advise you to drop the adversarial tone. Secondly, please point out where exactly I make the "allegation" that we decide things by "vote count" (which I take to mean simple majority voting) "all the time", or that it is "essential" to do so? It is certainly true that respondents should actively participate in a given discussion rather than just voting and leaving- might I therefore suggest "don't just vote, discuss" as a suitable and less confusing alternative title? In actual fact, whether or not issues like AfD and especially RfA are actually super-majority votes is to say the least a controversial issue (I recall a recent massive fuss which largely centred around an RfA which was passed without a clear super-majority) and not one to be dismissed glibly. I also do not argue in the above that this putative guideline should describe the various votes we have here, of whatever variety they may be. Please actually read my comment and then respond to what I actually said rather than what you seem to think I said. Badgerpatrol 13:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well excuse me if I misunderstood you, but in your previous post you said that "voting ... is essential ... and we do it all the time". AFD is not, and has never been, a supermajority vote; that is frequently demonstrated on WP:DRV and is not controversial. RFA is, indeed, confusing; it appears that many contributors expect it to be a supermajority vote, but the bureaucrats do not. (Radiant) 16:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • You did misunderstand me. "Voting" means "to cast one's vote", i.e. to express one's individual preference. Singularly, "a vote" is an individual expression of one's choice; collectively, "a vote" is a framework in which multiple respondents (in this case, Wikipedia editors in good standing) have the opportunity to express said choice. I have a feeling that you may be confusing "voting" sensu stricto with your own intepretation of voting- which seems to be that users express their opinion for or against a given motion and then the motion is carried (or not) according to a simple majority. I do not understand how this idea that every "vote" must be a simple majority vote propagates when in fact we have abundant examples in the everyday "real" world indicating that such a scenario is by no means intuitive- presidential elections, parliamentary elections, etc etc can, and have been decided in favour of the minority, and separately it is often the case that referenda, parliamentary votes etc. require a super-majority rather than a simple 50%+1. Voting (i.e. a collective expression of editors' will) is indeed, IMHO, absolutely essential to the project, we do indeed do it all the time- and we ought to encourage and cherish it. As I say above, whether or not processes such as AfD or RfA (and I confess that it is these two areas in which I have the most experience) actually are super-majority votes is another issue. For my own part, I think that at least for RfA (where the passing or otherwise of the motion (i.e. "promotion" to adminship) is very much a matter of individual opinion and preference) a super-majority requirement is actually valid and sensible. For AfD (which is largely an issue of policy enforcement) the waters are more muddied. Your own confusion might in fact be indicative of a more widespread mischaracterisation of what voting actually is, and for this reason (if for no other) I am unlikely to ever support a guideline with a highly misleading title like "Discuss, don't vote". If it was, for example, "Don't just vote, discuss" or "The majority doesn't always win" then I might be more inclined, although frankly I am not at all convinced that it is sensible or useful to enact this as a guideline at all, to be honest. Badgerpatrol 02:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How does this page describe current practice?

Based on the discussion above, I understand that this page is attempting to describe current practice rather than change it. If so, I have some criticism and questions:

  1. As I read it, the page currently says "polling is discouraged, except in the following seven (or so) circumstances." I'm not sure that that is true as a matter of common practice, and even if it were, I think a rename from "discuss, don't vote" would be appropriate.
  2. I disagree that polling is generally discouraged as a matter of common practice. Out in the actual articles, (as opposed to the policy pages), people routinely "test the waters" with polls, with very little opposition to polls that meet WP:STRAW.
  3. Is there a way to test whether polls are generally discouraged in the day-to-day functioning of Wikipedia that doesn't violate WP:POINT.
  4. Is there a paragraph discussing the use of surveys contemplated by WP:STRAW and the surveys that get listed on Wikipedia:Current surveys, or are the proposal authors arguing that those pages no longer reflect current practice?
  5. Why does this page describe current practice more accurately that Wikipedia:Discuss and Vote?

Thanks, TheronJ 15:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing on your specific points just now, sorry... but in general, I'd note that this page, originally on Meta, is actually considerably older than WP:STRAW, so I think it's rather unfortunate that it's suddenly been re-labeled a "proposal," as if it hadn't been playing a key role in community discourse for years. -- Visviva 16:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Not quite. Polling is discouraged in deletion, featuring, policy, guidelines and feature requests. Polling on people and arbitration is not what some people think it is. The only true exception of the seven you mention is standards.
  2. The page as present lacks a section on articles. It would be nice to add one; please cite some links for people "testing the waters"?
  3. The most recent example is a poll for an amendment to the semi-protection policy; it gained more votes against the poll than votes for or against the amendment. Also, check WP:DDV for the various instances of the standard rebuttal that "AFD is not decided by vote counting".
  4. I've noted Alphax, Brenneman, Dmcdevit, Sidaway and Bruning all stating that WP:STRAW doesn't reflect current practice. Personally, I see no reason not to take their word for it.
I read most of the editors you mention to be stating that they personally don't like or use surveys. In my observation, when editors think surveys may be helpful, they use them. I don't know of any reason for you to take my word for it, other than the fact that I am perceptive and honest. Do we seriously determine "current practice" by asking Dmcdevit? I admire him/her quite a bit, but that doesn't seem like a reliable test.TheronJ 16:20, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually none of the five mentions a personal dislike; please point out where you read that? Of course I don't determine current practice by asking anyone, but barring evidence to the contrary I see no reason to doubt the word of five diverse experienced users; I believe they generally know what they're talking about (and besides, do Brenneman and Sidaway ever agree on anything? :) ). So, please point to some pages that have recently used surveys in an effecive manner. (Radiant) 16:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm an experienced user, although certainly not as experienced as the five you've mentioned. What does my word count for? I am reading between the lines of Dmc's quote, and I can't find Alphax's or Brenneman's; I still disagree that the use of polls is not common practice. A quick scan through the history of Wikipedia:Current surveys will show plenty of surveys in the past few months. I assume that there are many more surveys that didn't make the current survey list, but I can't prove it. Are you saying that those surveys were in violation of widely accepted current practice? (As to whether the surveys are effective or not, I think that's too complex a question to answer, particularly if we are solely debating the descriptive question of whether they occur).
  • Given that surveys do occur, let me ask the opposite question. How many surveys that comply with WP:STRAW have been deleted in the past few months? Were the people who posted those surveys warned, and with which template? How many surveys were reported to ANI, and what was the reaction?
  • (Sorry if that sounds combative. I certainly don't mean it to be -- I can see that your intentions are good; I just don't think this particular proposal is an accurate description of existing practice or likely to lead to an improvement in practice.) Thanks, TheronJ 17:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, we're definitely going to need a section on polling about articles. I think Visviva had some suggestions. Still, even there it is discouraged (and not forbidden). Polls tend to be used there when discussion fails - and indeed, the list of article surveys you mention is a lot shorter than the list of community article discussions (WP:RFC). I'll check if they match WP:STRAW, but that's really beside the point - we can certainly have both some suggestions on how to hold a survey and suggestions that in most cases we shouldn't hold one. There's no contradiction there.
    • Your question of how many STRAW-compliant surveys have been deleted is really moot, since neither this page nor STRAW calls for the deletion of surveys, nor for sanctions against people who hold surveys. I think that's the perennial misunderstanding (and/or straw man) here: This is a guideline to discourage voting, NOT a policy to forbid voting. (Radiant) 09:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Update: picking ten recent surveys from the page you mention, I find six that didn't work at all, got nearly no feedback, were premature or opposed (by which I mean the poll was opposed, not the motion was opposed); one is about standardization conforming to this page; one turned into a discussion almost immediately; one failed WP:STRAW and turned heavily controversial; and the tenth was about an article title and worked out reasonably well. Evidence suggests that voting is, indeed, problematic, and that the weakly-worded WP:STRAW is not common practice. (Radiant) 09:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Assuming that this proposal merely discourages surveys, I don't think it describes current practice any better than WP:STRAW, which also discourages surveys. For that matter, I don't think it describes current practice any better than Wikipedia:Discuss and Vote, which I think is 100% accurate in its description of current practice, albiet with a different POV. As far as constructive feedback, I would probably sign on if the proposal (1) had a less combative name; (2) had a section discussing methods of dispute resolution that were generally considered preferable to surveys, and why; (3) said that many editors dislike surveys and many like them; and (4) discussed circumstances in which surveys may be profitably used. However, since that's basically an improved version of WP:STRAW, I'm not sure we're going to agree. TheronJ 15:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, you're of course welcome to improve the page as it stands now. (1) I fail to see what's combative about asking people to talk; (2) good idea; (3) true but irrelevant; the civility policy doesn't state either that many editors are incivil; and (4) good idea once more. I see no reason why we can't improve upon WP:STRAW. (Radiant) 16:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citation

From a related discussion on WT:NOT :

  • [..] Most new users coming to the Wikipedia editing process and decision-making style quickly get to the misconception that "majority rules" and that they can get their way if they just recruit enough other people to say the same thing. That's not particularly surprising given the democratic ideals held by the cultures that most of our editors come from. New users as a rule try to put things up for a vote and that's nearly always a mistake. Some issues flat can not be decided by vote. We are writing an encyclopedia. Majority rule can not overturn fact (though some have tried). More often, the real problem is that a premature poll or vote tends to polarize the subsequent discussion, causing participants to harden into static positions as they seek to justify their vote. Premature polls shut down the consensus-seeking and dialog that we all desire. That's the real point of m:Voting is evil. While your statement is technically true, the softer wording [of WP:NOT] would lead to an increase in the number of premature polls and a general decrease in the quality of discussion. Experience has taught us that we really do need to discourage polls pretty strongly in order to keep actual behavior about where we want it. Rossami (talk) 04:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's been my personal experience that polling discourages discussion as people tend to vote and consider their job complete. Their votes are counted in "consensus" building often without any reasonable ground to them, even if their vote or reasoning is called into question and they do not respond. --NewtΨΦ 14:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain...

Could someone that supports this essay/guideline/whatever explain in in a simple short sentence what they expect WP:DDV to accomplish? And could someone who disagrees with WP:DDV explain in a simple short sentence what they fear will happen if it becomes an accepted guideline? Cause I'm not really tracking a whole lot of difference here. --ElaragirlTalk|Count 04:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • The point is to educate (especially novice) users about the fact that (with very few exceptions) issues on Wikipedia are not, and should not be, decided by vote counting, and that representing an issue as binary tends to block a possible compromise. (Radiant) 08:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's a specific page adding detail to the official Wikipedia policy that Wikipedia is not a democracy. I like it. Daniel.Bryant [ T · C ] 08:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then change the title and emphasis to make it clear that it pertains to vote counting and not to voting per se. Badgerpatrol 10:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The reason for that wording is that people should discuss rather than voting; for instance, on AFD, people are encouraged to discuss (give their meaning, respond to people, find alternatives such as merging) rather than vote ("keep ~~~~ leave"). AFD really should be thought of as a discussion rather than a vote. If people think they're voting in AFD, they get all kinds of wrong impressions; if people think they're discussing in AFD, it's more productive. (Radiant) 10:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Either the point of this is to discourage deciding issues by simple vote counting, as you state above and which I pretty much agree with, or it is to discourage voting sensu lato (i.e. an expression of one's will), which I don't agree with and which I (and other editors above) do not think chimes with reality. Let's face it, the use of "Discuss here" rather than the previous "Vote here", or editors using terms like "!Vote" rather than just plain "vote", or phraseology like "AFD really should be thought of as a discussion rather than a vote" is actually fairly unsubtle sophistry (and I mean no offence by that) designed to obfuscate the fact that we are essentially dealing with a voting framework where closers/'crats etc very rarely ignore consensus and quite rightly tend to be hauled over the coals when they do so. In actual fact, regardless of what we may or may not want them to be, it is far more parsimonious to think of processes like AfD and RfA as "votes", of a sort. To repeat, I strongly suggest that to more accurately reflect the idea that I think you are trying to convey (that users ought to participate in evolving discussions on particular topics, where they may change their own opinion or encourage others to do so, rather than just stating their judgement once and then leaving) a far less confusing and counter-intuitive title would be "Don't just vote, discuss" or similar. Badgerpatrol 10:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The wording here is tricky. Of course everyone is free to express one's will on Wikipedia; that, after all, is the whole point. As you say, AFD closers very rarely ignore consensus - but they frequently* ignore specific "votes", and/or decide against the majority (note that "frequently" is another of those tricky words, in that it can be taken to mean "in most of the cases", which is clearly not the case here. What I mean is that it happens a couple of times per week, in a small but significant minority of AFD debates).
  • The dichotomy of AFD (et al) is this: it is, strictly speaking, a vote (and note that this guideline doesn't say that it isn't). However. Novice users, if being told this, tend to get the wrong impression of AFD, and assume that (1) comments are undesirable, (2) it must be closed in favor of the majority, and/or (3) campaigning is useful. In other words, it matches the definition of "vote", but lacks the implications people tend to assume for a "vote"; it does not match the "popular meaning" (for some definition of "popular"). Not every editor can perceive this nuance. To editors who cannot (and indeed, it is those that are most in need of education on the topic), it is clearer to say that "AFD is not a vote" (note that this guideline doesn't in fact say so, but people on AFD/DRV frequently do). These editors are in fact served by making tags say "discuss here" rather than "vote here" (well, that doesn't really work on RFA, but compared to other processes RFA is the exception rather than the rule).
  • But we're not just talking about AFD and RFA here. We're also talking about articles (can you vote on facts?), dispute resolution (do we vote on disputes and is the majority then right?) and proposals (are proposals ratified by vote?). In fact, those cases are more important, because AFD and RFA are watched by many advanced users, and articles/resolution/proposals not necessarily so. For all these cases, the name "don't just vote, discuss" implies that they must nevertheless be voted upon after discussion. This, again, gives people the wrong idea.
  • So the problem is that people assume that this guideline is about AFD and RFA. Indeed, I've seen several people arguing that since RFA is a vote, voting cannot be discouraged. That, simply, is missing the point. It's really quite okay if people discuss without voting, even in AFD and RFA; the fact that few people actually do doesn't make it less okay. On the contrary, it is entirely not okay if people vote just about anywhere except RFA, if they're unwilling to discuss the issue. And that is why people should always be encouraged to discuss, not vote. (Radiant) 11:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Votes tend to be discounted only if they are socks. The "real world" analogy for this is voter eligibility- citizenship, age, residency, registration etc. I don't think anyone would argue with that policy. Very, very rarely is "consensus" among good-faith (non-sock) voters (which, let's face it, is usuallly taken to be synonymous with "supermajority") ignored, and on those rare occasions when it is ignored, all Hell usually breaks lose. The issues with articles themselves (where polls are rare (and "poll" I think is really a much better word than "vote" for what I think you're driving at)) and with dispute resolution (does anyone really think that the DR process is a simple vote?) are surely already better dealt with by the various articles purporting to explain what "consensus" is. I'm not sure in any case that the antidote to any possible confusion amongst new users is to direct them to this page, with a title that we all recognise as misleading and which does not resonate with reality (and hence is surely likely therefore to leave many of these new users scratching their heads). I have certainly seen many novice users participate in discussions (in good faith) where they immediately recognise that comments and discussion, whether attached to a vote or not, are most welcome. An alternative solution to enacting this as a guideline might be to construct and attach a template to be added to each situation which could be mistaken for a simple majority-rules poll outlining the ground rules, and thus removing any problems caused by ambiguous language or perceptions. Badgerpatrol 12:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please see WP:DRV for several examples of closure against the majority, that were contested on DRV (which is what it's there for) and nevertheless endorsed. Hell has, so far, refrained from breaking loose about AFD. The title of this page is not misleading, it is an encouragement to "discuss, don't vote". Some people wrongly interpret this as "voting is forbidden" which would indeed be misleading. I'm glad to see that there are also novice users that understand the value of discussion over voting without needing to be told, but that's no reason not to educate the group that does. As Rossami stated earlier, "Experience has taught us that we really do need to discourage polls pretty strongly in order to keep actual behavior about where we want it." (Radiant) 12:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since an "opposed to this" editor hasn't spoken up with a short sentence about their concerns if this becomes a guideline, I will. My concern is that it will be used to shut down polls by direct action, like removal. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have to support Radiant's efforts on this page. If the concern of the "opposed to this" editors are that this policy will be used to shut down and remove polls, let's discuss when that would or would not be appropriate. If people use a poll to test the waters and explore what the range of opinions are, that is appropriate and the poll should not be shut down. If it is used to test for consensus after discussion has seemed to reach a conclusion, that is also appropriate. If a poll is presented as a vote, not being the result of a prior discussion, with language that says the results of the vote will be binding, it should be shut down and removed. If we are to allow polling, let's not call it a vote. Consensus decision making traditions use language like "test for consensus" and "voicing concerns". If these are called votes or polls, people will assume the majority rules. -- Samuel Wantman 23:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think, as an education tool, this page will be useful. I'm still dubious that it needs to be a guideline to do that, but I appreciate that those who need education the most are the ones least likely to take a lesson from a "mere" essay.
If language about when polls can be removed is included, it needs to be very restrictive. In the same way that advertising needs to be "blatant" in order to be speedy-deleted, a poll should be blatantly, clearly, obviously out-of-line in order to be removed. Really, anything else is unnecessary since a bad poll can easily be ignored. Any claims to a poll being binding or to have created a consensus is clearly shot down by pointing to WP:CON. (Though I grant that "clearly" doesn't equal "easily", but then if it's going to be hard to show people the error of their consensus-denying ways with a poll, it would have been just as hard without a poll in the picture.)
In general, I'm strongly in favour of letting polls stay on pages in all cases, and letting social Darwinism kill the bad ones. We don't need to remove the corpses from the page in order to move on without them. Many times, a failed poll is a strong indicator that the poll-creator's position is without merit and so they contribute to the discussion and the demonstration of consensus. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the offending sentence. It is better to prevent than to cure, in that we should be educating people when not to start polls rather than stopping them afterwards. I do hold that while bad polls can be ignored, the fact that most people do not ignore them can break up a discussion. (Radiant) 15:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A possible compromise solution

Greetings fellow editors. I've just updated Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a democracy to provide a wikilink from the word "discussion" to this page. I don't think anyone can argue that the democracy section (with a link to Wikipedia:Straw polls) hasn't been that way for some time. So we have a policy page that is now pointing to both this page as well as the straw poll page. Given that such is the case wouldn't it be more logical to continue to keep the two pages and upgrade them both to guideline status and then have a better coordination between the two pages? This discussion of guideline status or not on this page has been going on for quite some time and I seriously doubt that a consensus will be arrived at without some sort of a compromise. I propose this solution as that compromise. Thoughts? (→Netscott) 05:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Originally I had objections to this guideline, but I've given it more thought. It's not so much the guideline itself that might give the "wrong" idea, but how some stuff is presented. I think we can say almost the exact same thing, but emphases less on what "not" to do. Doing this will make people less defensive about this becoming a guideline. Maybe we could title this differently, like Wikipedia:Voting (which is a redirect to Wikipedia:Straw polls), and approach the topic as "where voting fits in with Wikipedia". Like I said, we can say almost the same things, but with a different title and a different lead in, it will make people less defensive about what it suggests. Just a thought. -- Ned Scott 06:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Reading this it clicked what my trouble with this being a guideline is: the spirit that it presents is at odds with the practice, but its letter is not. This could be fixed by changing the way the ideas are presented without changing their content much, if at all. I'm big on the spirit of policies and guidelines. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure, what did you have in mind? Spirit is good. (Radiant) 16:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Netscott - being linked from a policy page does not confer any particular "status" on a page. Indeed, there are plenty of guidelines, essays and other things linked from policy pages. I think a reasonable compromise would be merging this and WP:STRAW. (Radiant) 16:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Radiant, you're not heading towards consensus with such thinking. Particularly so long as this page is named "Discuss, don't vote". So long as that name is kept I'm going to continue to push for two pages and coordination between the two. (→Netscott) 16:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • How is merging not a compromise? (Radiant) 16:24, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Merging is not a compromise because WP:STRAW talks about utilizing straw polls in dicussions... while the expression Discuss, don't vote says otherwise. (→Netscott) 16:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • This page discourages polling. So does WP:STRAW. This page focuses on when a poll is and isn't appropriate, STRAW focuses on what to do if it is. It seems to me the two are complementary and therefore mergeable. (Radiant) 16:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • These, "Discuss first, vote last" or "Discuss and refrain from voting" or "Discuss and poll only when necessary" are titles that better correspond to the WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY wording, no? (→Netscott) 16:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • I like the middle one. (Radiant) 16:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
                • Good, now we're getting somewhere. Anyone else have another title that they think corresponds to this spirit? (→Netscott) 17:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My first choice would be "surveys" or "voting", but in a pinch, I could accept "Discuss first, vote last" or "Discuss always, vote rarely." TheronJ 03:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem with "discuss first, vote last" is that it implies that we must nevertheless vote (after discussion). (Radiant) 10:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you want a title that discourages voting, then it should just be an essay, not a policy or guideline. It's just some peoples' opinion. If it is going to be a policy or guideline, it should tell people when to use polls and when not to, with a title that reflects a neutral position. This whole "voting is evil" nonsense, under whatever new name has been cooked up, doesn't work. The evidence is all around us. 6SJ7 02:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • This page does tell people when to use polls and when not to. Discouraging voting is not just some peoples' opinion, it is based on longstanding precedent and the fact that voting is often used inappropriately and causes problems when used so. Some people have the "gut feeling" that voting is probably a good idea; but at least on Wikipedia, this gut feeling is often wrong. (Radiant) 10:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • All true, but as I also pointed out, simply by giving the guideline a more neutral title (like taking Wikipedia:Voting) we'll likely get more support for it. -- Ned Scott 00:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your almost-namesake proposed a number of more neutral names above. Note that most of our policy and guidelines that discourage something are named e.g. "no personal attacks". The point of this page is that we do indeed discourage voting because it often doesn't help or makes a mess, and have done so for a long time. (Radiant) 09:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking feedback

Hiya,

OK, I've done some more work on User:Visviva/DDV, and am curious if people think it's moving in the right direction. I think it addresses most of the concerns raised here, although not the matter raised above of removing polls...which I'm not sure is really pertinent here anyway. I observed that Wikipedia:Dispute resolution recommends a survey as one step in the DR process, so I have added that along with other cases where polling seems to be permissible. -- Visviva 14:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a big move in the right direction - thanks for all the hard work. Some suggestions and questions:
  1. Your point that surveys should never be understood to be binding is a great one, and I think it is probably the common ground around which we can build some kind of consensus. I might say it even more clearly - that while a survey should be understood as a method for clarifying issues in dispute or testing for consensus, no survey should ever be thought of as binding unless that survey leads to an actual consensus (in most cases) or to appropriate administrator/bureaucrat action (in cases like AFD and Admin nominations). You could actually have a closing sentence or two in each section that discusses current voting/quasi-voting procedures that explains what the actual decision making endpoint is of the quasi-vote (editorial consensus, bureaucrat action, etc.)
  2. Your draft doesn't resolve the issue of a name. I still think "Discuss, don't vote" overstates the actual point of the proposal. "Discussion is normally better than voting" is too long, so I'm at a loss for suggestions, though. How about a neutral title like "Surveys and voting" - then the text of the proposal can speak for itself.
  3. I'm not clear on why surveys are particularly unsuited to article content. Does that include fairly binary questions like "Source x" is a reliable source as used in statement "Y" or Statement "Y" is not directly supported by the sources offered, and is therefore original research?
  4. I like the statement in WP:DR that surveys may be helpful to test for an existing consensus. Does it make sense to add that to your draft?
Thanks again for the good work, TheronJ 15:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've taken several parts from your page and added them here. Thanks! (Radiant) 16:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Theron - one of the reasons surveys are unsuitable to article content is that some people tend to vote on facts, or the suitability of unsourced information. Also, articles aren't really supposed to be stable in the first place. The problem with "surveys aren't binding" is that even the people that say in advance that they aren't, are likely to conclude afterwards that it wasn't binding but they will nevertheless follow that option because "that's what people want". (Radiant) 16:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the feedback. Re your points, in no particular order: ;-)
2. I think it would not be a bad idea to have this at Wikipedia:Voting, as long as the basic principle -- namely, that voting is strongly discouraged in favor of discussion -- is maintained. Although in that case it might be nice to re-create Wikipedia:Voting is evil as a short essay, if only to balance Wikipedia:Voting is not evil.
3. I think it would include such questions, yes; except perhaps in a DR situation where canvassing might be appropriate. As I see it, these are exactly the kind of questions that must be resolved through discussion: if one editor raises valid concerns about a source, it shouldn't matter that there are 99 editors who think the source is OK.
4. I mentioned that in the "testing the waters" section, but I reckon the link to DR should be made more explicit.
1. More information on the mechanics of the non-votes wouldn't be a bad idea, although it would probably only be necessary if this was moved to Wikipedia:Voting. I share Radiant's concern over the tendency of surveys to become "retroactively binding," which I think is one reason why this page needs to discourage them in general, even when they're avowedly non-binding. It's also important to keep Wikipedia:Consensus can change, a fairly long-standing Policy, in mind; arguably, even votes which show consensus are not really binding, and even those which lead to admin action are binding only in the sense that a specific process (such as Deletion Review) must normally be followed in order to undo them.
Since chunks of the draft have already been incorporated into this page (thanks, Radiant!), I'll be leaving off work on it for now. Thanks again for the feedback. Cheers, -- Visviva 05:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about processes that are a vote?

The title header says it all. Deletion review is a straight vote, for instance. Requests for adminiship isn't explicitly a vote, but if you get 70% support you might not get promoted, while 75% will. The simple fact remains that, even if we "Discuss," and "don't vote," we still have processes where we do vote. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • DRV was recently changed from a majority vote to a consensus-based process, a move I believe you were involved in. If you read this page, you will see that it doesn't say that we do not vote; it says discussion is preferred to voting, which is true even in DRV and RFA (witness the many questions there). "Discuss, don't vote" is not synonymous to "We do not vote", it is a recommendation. (Radiant) 16:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • It was? When did this happen? The indications I was getting regarding DRV were that no one wanted to change it, and if the change did go through, no one's letting the closers know. But either way, if we're treating this as a recommendation, this needs to be clearer regarding that. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • It says so right at the top, "it is preferred to discuss issues rather than formally voting on them. That is not to say that voting is forbidden, but it should be used with care". (Radiant) 17:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can we make a clear distinction between voting and polling. The word "vote" implies a democratic process, while a "poll" implies research to find out what people are thinking. We should avoid the word "vote" whenever possible. We discuss, we don't vote. That doesn't mean that we don't have polls, and processes that heavily rely on the outcome of polls. -- Samuel Wantman 00:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Very good point. In other words, polls are data collection, and not the decision making process itself. The data we get from these polls might have significance or not, but should be seen in context, with discussion, etc etc. -- Ned Scott 01:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, but I have seen quite some editors who fail to see the difference, or "data collecting" polls that are retroactively turned into having been a "binding" vote (as in "yes, we know the poll wasn't binding, but we're going to do what it says anyway because that's what the majority obviously wants"). Polling is fine for processes such as AFD, but has a strong tendency to backfire when used for article content or proposals.
For instance, I recently saw Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements). After debate showed no consensus, a poll was held on the issue, which yielded no consensus. After two more months of debate (which showed no consensus) five different proposals were made one after the other; all of these were put to a vote, and none showed consensus. A fifth poll was held to establish whether two guidelines were contradictory. After several people pointed ou that you can't vote on a fact, the person who started it claimed the poll was actually to prove he was not alone in holding his position, and closed it. Discussion continues. My point is that a reliance on polls creates a mess like this. (Radiant) 09:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. However, I use polling in situations (like working on a re-write of categorization policy) as a technique to help me see where people stand, and hear their concerns. I think it has helped me with the process of working out a consensus. Ultimately, the test of any consensus is posting the completed result and not having it reverted or challanged. I have heard the phrase "silence is agreement" used in formal consensus decision making environments, and I think that is the true "vote" in a wiki. If something gets posted and nobody alters it, everyone who does nothing has voted by tacit agreement to let it remain.-- Samuel Wantman 09:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sure that some people are capable of using polling as an effective tool. However, it seems to me that most people use polls inadvisedly, prematurely and arbitrarily, and this should (obviously) be discouraged. I've seen quite a number of polls lately and about 80%-90% of them were either ineffective or backfired. Indeed, as you say, when I edit pages in Wikispace, I don't add a poll to ask whether people agree with me, I watch is people disagree and if so we discuss it. (Radiant) 09:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rounding up

Well, debate has died down here so this is a good time to round up the remaining points. Comments about this guideline boil down to three basic issues here and a few miscellaneous comments.

  1. The principle. The principle of the page is that voting is discouraged on Wikipedia. It should be clear by now that issues on Wikipedia are not decided by vote counting. This longstanding principle was affirmed by many editors here, as well as in a recent ArbCom case. That some people are unaware of this principle is a good reason for having this page to educate them; that some people wish to change this principle does imply that it remains a principle until they succeed in changing it.
  2. The wording. Well, the page has been rewritten from scratch and reworded by a number of people and should now provide an accurate description of how Wikipedia works. If anyone disputes this I would like to see specific counterexamples. If there are sections missing, please add them.
  3. The name. Several people object to the current name of this page. There have been a few compromises proposed and I have no objection to renaming the page to one of those.
  4. Miscellaneous.
    1. First, some people assert that Wikipedia should change and should adopt more formal procedures to accomplish things. These people are welcome to propose their new ways, but that is not a valid objection to documenting the status quo. Note that a recent proposal for such change was rejected by the community.
    2. Second, people keep citing WP:RFA as the counterexample to everything; because of an ongoing dispute in that area on its talk page it may be worthwhile to note that this page may not apply there.
    3. Third, some people say that the style of this page needs improvement. These people are welcome to edit the page and improve it; that is not a real objection to the content of the page. Also, note that we do not in fact have a manual of style for guideline pages.
  • Comments please? (Radiant) 14:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm against this proposal as currently written. For one thing, the title is a problem because it suggests that policy prohibits voting, which is not the case. Secondly, the substance of the proposal is slanted too much against voting. The proposal needs to give a clearer indication that taking a poll is often a very valuable exercise and the proposal should embrace more instances of voting. Johntex\talk 14:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First, I already said I agreed to a rename; and note that neither the title nor the page itself have anything to do with policy. Policy is suggested by policy pages, not by the titles of pages that are not policy (and not becoming policy either); I really have no idea where that suggestion came from, but editors are highly unlikely to accept anything as policy that doesn't have a {{policy}} tag.
  • Second, I disagree that taking a poll is "often a very valuable exercise"; please do point out recent polls that were such valuable exercise, because I can cite several that weren't (e.g. here, here, here and here. (Radiant) 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know that I come across as a wet blanket, and I respect what you're trying to do, Radiant!, but I still have a number of concerns. I'm still forming a final opinion. Some initial thoughts:
    1. I'm glad to hear you're open to changing the name. I would strongly oppose any guideline under the "Discuss, Don't Vote" name, for the reasons I state above, and the final name chosen is likely to affect my ultimate opinion.
    2. The proposal as written today appears to be POV against voting. It accurately concedes, I suppose, that procedures that resemble voting occur daily on Wikipedia, but it always does so in a grudging fashion that appears intended to reduce the instances of procedures resembling voting in the future.
    3. The style does need work. It is true that there is no style guide for guidelines, but I would think it would be self-evident that a guideline should be helpful to editors, which requires at a minumum that its point be clear to people who aren't familiar with the debate. (WP:CREEP also comes to mind).
    4. I still am not convinced that this draft describes current Wikipedia policy any more accurately than WP:STRAW.
Thanks, TheronJ 15:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your feedback... (1) To me, the content of the page is far more important than the name. (2) The intent has never been to reduce procedures resembling voting (nor, indeed, would such an intent even be possible). However, it is vital to remember (and frequently forgotten) that those processes are not decided by vote count. (3) Regarding style, please edit it. (4) WP:STRAW doesn't really describe anything, it simply recommends polls and describes how to make one. I note that nearly all polls on policy/guideline matters (except standardization) are either pointless or backfire. Thankfully this is less extreme with article polls. Note the dichotomy that polls are used both frequently (as in, several times per week) AND infrequently (as in, only in a small percentage of the debates we have). (Radiant) 15:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reading through it once more I fail to see where you read that this page would "reduce the instances of procedures [such as AFD]". It simply states that (1) they are not decided by vote counting, and (2) people are encouraged to leave comments. Could you please elaborate on what you mean? (Radiant) 16:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's a tone issue, so it's hard to point to any one thing. In general, I think the page gives short shrift to the idea that polling does occur (as you accurately point out, simultaneous frequently and rarely, depending on perspective), usually without difficulty. Let me try to find time to take a close look at the style issues, and we may be able to resolve my tone concerns as well. TheronJ 16:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how POV applies to guidelines or policies, it's not supposed to apply to content. Any guideline should reflect the point of view of wikipedia - WP is against personal attacks, copyright violations, unverifiable info. If consensus is truly that wikipedia should discourage voting, then the site should reflect that, POV or not. --Milo H Minderbinder 15:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I understand Radiant! correctly (and I welcome correction if I do not), he/she is arguing that the DDV proposal should become a guideline not because we think it's a good idea, but because it accurately describes existing practice. I've been responding primarily to that argument. If the discussion here is about whether Wikipedia should discourage voting, then I have numerous additional comments. Thanks, TheronJ 15:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Indeed, my point is that Wikipedia does discourage voting. I remain very much interested in more formal systems of accomplishing things (for instance, as used on the French Wikipedia) but I believe that such proposals should take place on a separate page, and I think it's helpful to know where we stand before we decide where we're going. (Radiant) 15:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, despite what the arbcom said, WP policy does discourage voting. From WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a democracy: "Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary method of determining consensus is discussion, not voting. Votes and polls are to be used with caution and not to be treated as binding votes, and in most cases are not recommended." So discouraging voting is already official policy. This article should just be an expansion on that, consistent with other wp guidelines and policies. --Milo H Minderbinder 16:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I object to this proposal as currently stated and named, per the comments of TheronJ in this section. 6SJ7 16:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to article section

I added a paragraph to the article section.[1] I don't disagree with the previous text, but thought it was a little light on describing the circumstances under which editors do use polls in the article talkspace, and the circumstances under which those polls are likely to be constructive. (My anecdotal experience is that article talkspace polls are used somewhere between occasionally and rarely -- the hundred or so articles I watchlist probably see several polls a month between them -- and usually without much dispute). I also added a link to WP:STRAW -- I understand that it's not currently certified as a guideline, but think that if an editor plans to create a poll, then the principles for good polling listed there are worth reviewing.

Thoughts? Thanks, TheronJ 14:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I pretty much agree. Likewise, I've seen article polls used occasionally; some of them were constructive, others were simply ignored by most editors, and a select few were counterproductive. I think the most important points are to keep it simple, and to ask the right question(s); if agreement cannot be reached on what question(s) to ask, then a poll will not resolve anything and likely aggravate the issue. (Radiant) 15:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed deletion

I propose to delete the following sentence from the introduction:

It is not unusual for editors to leave Wikipedia entirely, or to drastically reduce their activities, due to the bitterness left by such votes.

Is there any evidence for this statement? I am aware of a few editors leaving because of non-expert editors editing articles, and a few editors leaving (or threatening to leave) because of bad experiences in RFCs, RFAs, et al., but I'm not aware of any evidence that eliminating voting would have prevented those departures. Is it all right if I remove that sentence? Thanks, TheronJ 14:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

!vote = yes that does sound like a bit of an uncited supposition. (→Netscott) 15:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stricken. While I'm sure that has happened a couple of times, it is certainly not "usual". (Radiant) 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I can say that I myself left Wikipedia for several months following a particularly bitter and pointless poll... a poll which I probably still can't describe in detail without violating WP:CIV, so I'll stop there. And given the acrimony I've seen around many other polls, to say nothing of AfDs, I would be astonished if I'm the only one. -- Visviva 16:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, I have to wonder how many people have left in frustration over discussions that go around and around forever with no "consensus", and no universally accepted and effective manner of resolving the issue in the absence of "consensus." 6SJ7 16:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, of course, that contentious issues can drive people away from the wiki, regardless of whether or not those issues are dealt with through voting. It is incorrect to assume that voting makes an issue contentious; it is likewise incorrect to assume that voting will resolve a contentious issue. (Radiant) 09:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I only meant that remark to explain why I had initially added that line in my draft; I agree that may be better left out. However, I would argue that by creating a zero-sum game, voting does tend to push discussions toward more and more hostile behavior, sockpuppetry, etc.; and that a close review of contentious past votes would show this to be the case. Since Wikipedia editing must be its own reward, it doesn't take much unpleasantness to push dedicated contributors away. -- Visviva 09:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And the hilarious thing is that the basic wikipedia system of negotiated consensus was designed as being non-zero sum and actually supports multiple winners. You just have to love the drive of inexperienced people who try to "improve" things. Just because wikipedia has a system that you didn't just invent 3 minutes ago, based on some superseded century old philosophy taught to you in high school , doesn't mean that you're not actually the reactionary :-P Kim Bruning 04:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Me, getting tired and bitter? Oh hmm, well I am sort of burned out. Come yell at me on my talk page if you think I'm being too harsh :-)[reply]


As to the first line, errr, that's one of the main raison d'êtres for this guideline. We tried voting, we have the t-shirt, and the scars.

Canonical example: does anyone still remember Wikipedia:Quickpolls?

Kim Bruning 04:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed v policy?

This has been accepted practice for a very long time. How is it "proposed" rather than policy? Friday (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lack of actual consensus? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This has been accepted practice for a very long time, has it not? This would mean there's concensus. or do you want us to vote on it? :-) Friday (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm not sure if "accepted practice" was "consensual practice," though. Until roughly a month ago, we still had one major process as a straight vote, RfA is only a statement of consensus in theory, ArbCom plays by their own rules. We chuckle about voting on it, but I'm not entirely sure that, as a whole, the preference when it comes to more minor situations - conflicts on pages, certain inclusion discussions, situations where two consensual situations collide, that a majority vote isn't something useful. That "not entirely sure" feeling is exactly why this probably isn't a guideline right now. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mainly, there are a few people that have a "gut feeling" that voting is actually a good idea, and thus resist a page that discourages it; and there was a counterproposal for a while to mandate vote counting in all wikiprocess. (Radiant) 17:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is it lack of consensus, or that consensus goes so far back that it's hard to find? This exact wording may be more recent, but the general concept seems to go back a long ways on wikipedia (and meta) and to be generally accepted. I can see arguing with the specific wording, but the general concept is already mentioned in multiple WP policies and guidelines already. If you have specific quibbles about the wording here, work toward ironing them out. --Milo H Minderbinder 17:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • But, after all, consensus can change. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Can you demonstrate that consensus has changed? --Milo H Minderbinder 17:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Sure, there's a lot to look at above, along with the way a lot of people handle their conflicts. Also, the fact that someone was to the point of proposing a voting guideline before it was unfairly nuked from orbit says a lot to me. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • That the suggestion to vote on everything was "nuked from orbit" (by which we mean, rejected after fair discussion on MFD) is a strong indication that in fact concensus hasn't changed here. (Radiant) 17:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • I don't consider MfD a strong indication of anything other than those who patrol MfD. As MfD isn't visited by a strong amount of established editors on a general basis, I struggle to find consensus there. The fact that we were not able to actually find a consensus and reject it, choosing rather to delete it, implies that many of the folks who went to that MfD didn't even want it discussed, which somewhat runs contrary to the spirit of how we do things anyway. There was a lot wrong with that, truly. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
                • Am I confused? Wikipedia:Discuss and Vote was not deleted, it was tagged as rejected -- which reflects the fairly strong consensus among participants in the MfD. I agree with your general point about MfD (and the deletion process as a whole); but surely your objections to that particular vote-like discussion would apply equally to vote-like behavior throughout Wikipedia.... Does that mean you actually support this guideline? -- Visviva 05:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Milo - that's why this page was rewritten from scratch. There haven't been any objections to the wording lately, except that Theron wants to change the overall tone. Some people want the title to change; I have no strong opinion on that. (Radiant) 17:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • IMHO, the title as is mischaracterizes existing practice, and I am still mulling over whether the overall tone mischaracterizes existing practice. I still have some issues with the theory that once a page accurately describes existing practice, it is automatically promoted to guideline, but they would be a distraction here -- maybe Radiant! and I can take it to the Village Pump when I have time. TheronJ 17:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think "essay" would be more accurate than "proposed", if we can't agree that it's policy. Friday (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RFA has been a consensus process for as long as I've used it, when did this change? Kim Bruning 21:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Kim, I agree with NetScott that we don't have consensus for this page yet. (particularly with the current name). If your concern is primarily with RFA, I don't think you would have a problem if you decided to tag WP:RFA as a guideline. TheronJ 21:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • From the edit summary I'm not sure Kim realized this has been totally rewritten from what was copied from Meta. --W.marsh 21:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There never was any consensus for such a change. When the meta essay was brought over into en space in January, Radiant! tried to upgrade it from meta's essay status to guideline status here but there's not been a consensus for that move. (→Netscott) 21:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is about as guideline-y as we get, IMO. There's pretty wide acceptance, and you hear the "discuss, don't vote" mantra frequently. It's clearly not a proposal, at any rate. Friday (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I respect your opinion, but I don't agree that your anecdotal experience establishes consensus. In my experience, votes happen every day, with a number of surveys happening a week on my watchlisted pages alone, and those surveys are almost never discouraged, prevented, or impeded. (The most common outcome is that everyone chimes in without objection, and then the editors agree that there's not consensus for the name change or whatever it was). While it is certainly true that many editors disparage voting, surveys, and other snoutcounting, the established practice has always seemed to be that "Votes and surveys occur occasionally, usually without objection. Some editors have strong objections to voting." TheronJ 21:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't. The meta page makes it clear that this more than just an essay; but {{essay}} does not. This is a guideline; it accurately describes our experience with voting, which is that it is not seldom constructive, and usually does far more harm than good. -- Visviva 05:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a point of confusion here - while surveys happen on a regular basis (including things like AfDs), even though they look like votes with all the "support"/"oppose", they are not in fact votes since the result doesn't depend on the numbers, but on the arguments that follow those "support"/"oppose". Meaning a position with a fewer number of "votes" (not votes) may previal. Attempting to call a vote is also generally useless because there's no definition of how many votes would be needed anyway - the site makes it pretty clear that simple majority certainly doesn't equal consensus, and supermajority isn't defined in numbers. The whole "Voting is Evil" concept applies to doing it as seldom as possible, and that in almost all cases on wikipedia, even when a survey is done, it's not a vote even if the people doing it call it that. What makes things sticky is that in most disputes, there's no voice of god to come in and declare a "winning" side. But hopefully that means the two sides will negociate and find a compromise or an otherwise acceptable solution. --Milo H Minderbinder 23:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • As written, it seems to me that the proposal discourages surveys. If the proposal said "don't vote, but non-binding surveys are not votes and therefore used when editors feel they would be helpful," I would probably not oppose. TheronJ 03:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, is supporting or opposing really such a good idea? Guidelines should be descriptive, not prescriptive. Let me explain:
In the current en.wikipedia system, holding a majority vote would be a bit of a disaster, so we really want to reccomend against that. What's almost equally bad is when people grab an opinion poll at the outset, and thereby kill any kind of consensus gathering (oops). Perhaps somewhere we should warn people about these potential pitfalls, while at the same time helping them understand how to avoid them.
So that's why guidelines should be descriptive: What we really need is a realistic description of what goes right and why and what goes wrong and why, so that maybe one day we might even have a written body of guidelines that has some remote resemblance to actual daily practice on wikipedia.
*sigh* Perhaps I should just give up and let people write fairy tales in the project namespace. It'd certainly make me more popular ;-) "* support : my truthy feeling is that this person finally understands policy after all these years with wikipedia" :-p
Kim Bruning 04:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this dose of sanity. -- Visviva 05:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should note that the argument that "this is not a guideline on meta" is irrelevant since meta doesn't have a guideline tag in the first place. Many older essays on meta, such as meta:be bold, are important to our culture and considered what we call guidelines on the English Wikipedia. (Radiant) 22:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This may be a minor point -- since after all the meta page is rather different from the one here -- but the header for m:Polls are evil says clearly "This is an important essay written by the community. Although it doesn't have the force of policy or guideline, it is nevertheless heavily referenced on many Wikimedia projects, especially the English Wikipedia." The meta page has included that text, or something similar, for some time. I guess if we include that here, I would not find the {{essay}} tag quite so, well, absurd. -- Visviva 04:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Visviva, yes I had noticed that wording and I was intending to comment upon it myself. I think that is an excellent idea. Maybe we could create a new template and call it {{established essay}} or some such with the wording from meta. (→Netscott) 04:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Non-binding surveys

Continuing from the above...

As pointed out somewhere above in the discussion, the problem with "non-binding" surveys is that they tend to be used after the fact as a blunt instrument to enforce "consensus," and be damned to WP:CCC and WP:NPOV too. I don't see anything here that would discourage anyone from posting "Here's an idea, what do other people think about this?" on a talk page, nor anything that would discourage the respondents from mentioning that they support or oppose the idea. Anyone who would cite DDV in such a context is just being annoying. However, my experience is that more formal surveys, on more contentious issues, lead to nothing but grief. I guess TheronJ's watchlist is different from mine, but on the rare occasions that a vote, survey, or other zero-sum ploy crosses my 6000-page watchlist it usually has something to do with a painfully controversial issue (see the archives of Talk:Dokdo, Talk:Imjin War, et al.), and the vote does absolutely nothing to advance the discussion. -- Visviva 05:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Regardless of the guideline/essay/whatever issue... Is there a title for this page that would better reflect its purpose and content?

  • The current title "Don't vote" is somewhat contradictory to the actual contents of the page, which describes in some detail when it is and isn't constructive to engage in vote-like behavior.
  • In this respect "Voting is evil" is actually better, since it doesn't tell anyone what to do, it just describes our experience that voting tends to have a vicious effect on the project.
  • "Voting" has been suggested, but is neutral and boring and fails to reflect the normative role of the page. (Is that a problem? Given the way people jump into voting here, I think it probably is.)
  • What about "Avoid voting"? That seems to accurately reflect the page contents, and doesn't give the (mistaken) impression that the page opposes vote-like behavior entirely.

Any other thoughts? -- Visviva 04:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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