Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Power level (Dragon Ball) (second nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Most of the keep arguments were based on "this exists" or "this is important" rather than addressing the reason that the article was nominated. --Deskana (talk) 00:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Power level (Dragon Ball)

Power level (Dragon Ball) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Original research synthesis on a concept from the Dragon Ball universe. No information drawn from reliable sources of any kind, as far as I can tell. --Slowking Man 02:27, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• it just needs cleaning up Imagine if Star War's Force was a messy article, we'd insist it just needs cleaning, rather than deletion. Preceding comment added by User:164.106.13.69. Deskana (talk) 19:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Ahahaha. See, here's the thing - DBZ will never even be able to compare to the popularity of Star Wars in any scenario. Star Wars is so unbelievably, immensely popular that someone made a Star Wars Jedi training school in Romania. All DBZ has is people putting on big plastic hair and fake Karategi and yelling Kamehameha. Ask someone what "The Force" is, chances are that they will know. Power level? Nope. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    • You forgot about the continent of Asia
      • No, I didn't. Star Wars has worldwide popularity, and I assure you that shows such as Star Wars and Star Trek are much bigger than DBZ in Asia. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
        • ALTtP, I think you are mistaking Popularity for Notability. This is still notable as Dragonball is a very popular universe. Therefore, the argument (albeit crude) is still accurate. StayinAnon 19:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
          • No, it's barely notable in the series. It's a simple plot device to say who's stronger than who, used for only one and a half arcs. Nothing would be different without it. Nemu 20:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
            • The difference between The Force (Star Wars) and Power level (Dragon Ball) is "The Force", like the rest of Star Wars, is culturally significant while "Power Level" is not. You can see references to the concept in TV, films and music. There's books on the philosophy behind the concept and its parallels to different religions. And, more importantly, there's documentation of Lucas' inspiration for the concept... Not so much on "Power Level," is there? So, it isn't really fair to compare the two.--Nohansen 20:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete. So much original research that nothing on the article can even verify that the subject actually exists in any form. Also, the list of all power levels in the series is completely unnecessary. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:30, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete. Wikipedia is not an anime guide on obscure, unverified concepts.--TBCΦtalk? 03:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• If some independant, fact-checked sources on the subject could be found, I would support stripping this down to a sourced stub, as from my limited understanding, the relative power levels of the characters are important to the customiseable card game and at least the early seasons of the DBZ anime (about a screen's worth, all of which must be sourced). Failing someone with the required interest willing to step up and do that, delete. -- saberwyn 04:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Per above. Also, since the power levels stop after a while, it really isn't possible to expand the article--SUIT 05:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Don't Delete There is no reason to delete this article the concept of ki scouters and power levels is a key part of Dragonball Z all the power levels are from reliable sources just because the power levels stop later in the series doesn't mean its not important. no reason to delete this. DBZROCKS 12:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • It's unverified research. That's a VERY good reason. And from what I hear, Daizenshū's power levels didn't have any input from Bird Studio or TOEI. Most of the content is guide content, and the other content is original research that no one seems to be interested in verifying. Hell, does anything on the article even show that the subject is real in Dragon Ball? No - not a single link, not a single source. None of the images even verify it. - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete primarily due to OR concerns, although Wikipedia isn't an anime guide, just like it's not a game guide. Arkyan 15:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, although I can't believe I'm defending Dragon Ball. The concept is important enough to Dragon Ball to warrant a seperate article. The article implies there's an "official" book detailing this stuff, and the other information is taken from the manga or anime directly. Therefore, I think the article is sourceable and the OR can be gotten rid off, and the speculation can be hacked out. It's a cleanup case, not a delete case, let's give the kiddies a chance to fix it. And while I just know that this doesn't describe anyone around here, just as a note, let's not let personal dislike for the series taint our judgment, mmmkay? Or personal like, for that matter. --UsaSatsui 15:28, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete It's nonsense. Acalamari 16:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • How is it nonsense? its part of Dragonball Z its not a fan made term Akira Toriyama put it in there. So what if the Daizenshu didn't consult Toei or Bird Studio they didn't create dragonball Akira Toriyama did. DBZROCKS 20:57, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Not every anime term warrants an article, you know. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Yes that is true but this one does, there is no reason for this to be deleted it has the right information and has many other articles merged in. It just needs a bit of a tune up thats all. DBZROCKS 21:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Why does this one warrant an article? Most of it is a guide. Can you give me a single reason why it is necessary that it has an article? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Its not a guide its half list and half article thats all. Its necesary because
          • 1.its an important dragonball Z concept
          • 2.Its not just on power levels it also has scouters and Ki/Chi mixed in
          • 3.Its not overrun with fancruft or anything its a perfectally good article.
          • 4.Is there any reason to delete it?
          • we could easily fix up the article instead of just deleting it. DBZROCKS 21:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
            • It is a guide. It is an anime guide on power levels. The rest of the content is original research. This has been at the AfD four times - first time it was deleted, but someone revived it without going through deletion review.
            • 1. It's not important. It's just a detailed description of characters' powers. Is it necessary for us to know that some character has a power level of NINE THOUUUUUSAAAAAAND?
            • 2. The Dragon Ball article can cover ki/chi.
            • 3. It's not? 100% original research and anime guide cruft.
            • 4. Yes. 100% original research and anime guide cruft. That's a GREAT reason to delete. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
              • Its not all original research just look at the scouter part. Why would the Dragonball article cover Chi/KI its huge already KI/chi deserves its own page we just need to delete the fancruft. DBZROCKS 21:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                • Oh? I don't see many sources to make it not original research. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                  • Many articles don't have sources but are still fine just look at Future Trunks. Anywhay the Daizenshu could be considered a source. DBZROCKS 21:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                    • Only for content that's going to be deleted, article kept or deleted. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                      • What do you mean deleted? the list of Power levels is just fine. DBZROCKS 21:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                        • Because it's guide content. Have you ever explained why it is necessary to know every single powere ever recorded in the entire series? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                          • Thats like saiying why its nesesary to list all the pokemon but we have them all listed. Its not like its listing any power levels that were not stated in the manga. DBZROCKS 21:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                            • How are numbers more important than "characters" in a very popular franchise? Just give it up. You're just grasping for straws at this point. There are no possible references beyond basic "ki=energy=pl" things. Nemu 21:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                              • what? I never said they were more important than the charecters. But they are important. They measure a charecter's power. Also its not just numbers it has scouters and Ki in there too! DBZROCKS 21:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                • They are not important in the least. They're just a plot thing to show who's stronger than who used for one and a half arcs/sagas. The rest is unimportant also, and can be cut and placed elsewhere. Nemu 21:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                  • Ok so they may not be uber important but can't we just list them delete the repeditive stuff expand the scouter section and call it a reborn article? DBZROCKS 22:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                    • Also, if power levels are important, does that also mean that the base stats of each Pokémon are too? - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                      • don't take this personally but thats just rediculus base stats of pokemon are completely random. There are 400-something pokemon but there are only 40 or so power levels max stated in dragonball. thats a huge difference. DBZROCKS 22:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                        • They are not random. A Pikachu at level 1 has the same base stats as another Pikachu at level 1. The sun setting is about as random as Pokémon base stats. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                          • Well actually Pokemon Base stats are on some pages I think on manaphy and a few others. you know pokemon base stats wouldn't be so bad on those pages good idea. DBZROCKS 22:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                            • Except that it is guide content. It is not necessary to know their base stats. That's content used for forming a great Pokémon team. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                              • Yes but its a video game any information will probably help people play the game. Guide information would be more like a good move set for a pokemon or what abilities are best, stuff like that. DBZROCKS 22:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                                • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. You have not shown any necessity for there to be a list of every recorded power level, so why are you even arguing anymore? - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                                  • its useful information though if it needs to be deleted at least keep the upper part of the article with a little tune up it could be pretty good. DBZROCKS 22:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
                                                    • help! I am being squashed against the right margin! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Grutness (talk • contribs) 01:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
• Delete The page is fairly pointless. It seems to just be various paragraphs restating information in slightly different ways. One relevent paragraph can just be salvaged and merged elsewhere. Nemu 21:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • merged to where? we have no article like this anywhere else. DBZROCKS 21:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Hm, I don't know, how about the giant attack page that we have? Nemu 21:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I know but that page is seriously out of control and its a list of attacks not an article explaining Ki. NOt all attacks use Ki/Chi. we seriously should just keep the article and fix it maybe add a couple of sources. DBZROCKS 21:22, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. It's actually an important part of the series. bibliomaniac15 22:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • And no reason has ever been given to explain WHY it's important. - A Link to the Past (talk) 22:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • No reason has been given to why it isn't important. DBZROCKS 22:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • If you gave us anything to shoot down, we'd provide proof that it's unimportant. However! You have not done so. So you don't have to prove anything, but we must prove everything?
      • Fun question: What would change if power levels did not exist? - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Your forgeting no powerlevels means no Scouters. many charecters can't sense chi.

ex: this is the Conversation between Goku and Ginyu before they fight

Goku: Whatch my power level

Ginyu: Whats this 80,000 90,000 100,000 110,000

Ginyu: 120,000 and still rising!

Ginyu: 180,000!?

Goku: Thats nothing compared to when I use my power in bursts

Ginyu: Bursts!?

Now try this version with out powerlevels

Goku: Check my Aura

Ginyu: hes turning red

Ginyu: Redder Reddest!

Ginyu: now he's really red!

Goku: This is nothing compared to when I use my power in bursts!

Ginyu: Bursts?!

see? The absense of power levels changed the whole conversation! DBZROCKS 23:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact that they acknowledge power levels does not equal importance. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok let me explain this to you. many charecters like Nappa, Freeza and Captain Ginyu cannot sense KI/Chi so they have scouters that let them see how strong charecters are via numbers. These concepts are interwoven with Ki/Chi MAJOR AND KEY concepts to Dragonball and Dragonball Z and GT. You also state that the list of Power levels should not be there. thats like not listing how fast a rocket can go (given that the number is recorded) or how many episodes are in an anime. Its not mega important info but at the same time it is not info that no one cares about it is enyclopedic and factual not a bunch of fanon garbage. The Daizenshu in fact consulted Akira Toriyama on the stuff they put in there it wasn't a bunch of Japanese Fanboys who decided to make a dragonball Z book. The Bottom line Power Levels are important and Factual and true. Period. DBZROCKS 23:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Power levels are important in showing the character's current power. If they did not exist, the only difference is that no characters would KNOW your power level. Are you implying that the plot would be different without the lack of power levels? - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

did you just totally ignore the 7 lines of text up there? (no offense) The plot would be differnt without Powerlevels because powerlevels are bascially showing your chi/Ki They would know ki/Chi exists because if they didn't there wouldn't be any scouters. Powerlevels are not a complete plot device; they are there to let the reader how strong a charecter is in numeracal form. We should list them for the sake of completenes. DBZROCKS 00:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

A CONVERSATION ABOUT POWER LEVELS IS NOT IMPORTANT. And no, we should NOT list them for the sake of completeness. Under your logic, everything that ever existed or ever could exist should be listed simply to make Wikipedia complete. So what, if there were no power levels, Vegeta would have killed everyone and Freeza would rule the universe and destroy Earth before Buu or Cell could become? - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:07, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok forgeting the beforementioned conversation about powerlevels what is wrong with powerlevels they are in the manga and are a key part of DB and DBZ and DBGT they help the reader understand exactly how powerful a charecter is instead of "What powerful Chi/Ki" no they don't have a direct effect on the plot they help the reader. DBZROCKS 00:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"They exist" isn't an argument for inclusion. It needs to be verified. --Deskana (talk) 03:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The concept is not as important to Dragonball as people may think. It is not used during the DB half of the series, and it is only relevant to the Saiyan and Freeza arcs of DBZ.--Nohansen 00:16, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • comment yes but that article doesn't just cover power levels it also covers Chi/Ki a key DRagonball Concept. DBZROCKS 01:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Ki is part of other martial arts anime or wuxia film, but you don't see them giving a personalized definition of it. Besides, that's what the Qi article is for.--Nohansen 01:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Chi/Ki in dragonball does much more than real life Ki/chi it lets charecters use energy attacks, determines thier power etc. DBZROCKS 11:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as this level of detail is better suited for a wiki dedicated to the subject. Mr. Berry 06:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Edison 14:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No reference to how this fictional concept fits into the real world. Fictional concepts are not separate from their source material unless they have some sort of importance outside of their fictional universe that is at least partially separate from their source. --Daniel J. Leivick 22:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
• Comment What? DBZROCKS 22:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if that wasn't clear. To simplify: an encyclopedia articles must cover the out of universe significance of a subject. This article does not. --Daniel J. Leivick 23:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So are you saying that this article needs to have information about the significance of powerlevels in the real world? DBZROCKS 23:18, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes it should have sourced information regarding the cultural significance of Power Levels if there is any. --Daniel J. Leivick 23:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I can see that kind of material in a lot of pages, many fictional pages do not really need this kind of info. In other words its not really worth deleting a page over. DBZROCKS 23:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

And? That does not mean that they don't require sources and OOU info. It just means no one has bothered to do anything about it, or they have none, like this page. A page is required to have them; if there's a good possibility for them, the page is kept, if not, it's deleted. Nemu 23:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey!! I was trying to say the same thing but you beat me to it. :) --Daniel J. Leivick 23:46, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I see well I guess since there are no web sites that foucus on powerlevels and the Daizenshuu isn't an internet source I Guess I'll have to give this up. Thanks for letting me see where I was going wrong. Thanks :D DBZROCKS 23:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Weak delete, has minimal sources and much original research. Although it's clear the author(s) put a lot of effort into it. Is there a Dragonball Wikia yet? --Merovingian ※ Talk 18:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there is one. I'm pretty sure they have this over there already. Nemu 18:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Okey-dokey then. --Merovingian ※ Talk 18:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Without power levels, Dragon ball plots would be without sense, Toriyama used it since Dragon ball and all the Saiyan Saga and Freeza Saga, the concept of ki is real in Asia, and other mangas use similar " inner power" to explain the grow of charaters strengh, in real world the more we train, more fit and strong we are, thats is the teaching part in Toriyama´s Dragon Ball manga, never believe you are the best, you allways find someone that is better, so keep improving your abilities, i am done, the article only needs improving in my opinion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ykkifenix (talk • contribs) 19:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Unfortunately this does not address the WP:V concerns. --Deskana (talk) 19:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The manga is the principal source for the power levels until the Freeza Saga, this is a fictional page, so is hard to find more sources than the manga itself.

Where are the references in the article? --Deskana (talk) 04:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the "Influence on other series" section: Saint Seiya came before DBZ; so it be kind of difficult for DBZ's concept of "Power Level" to have an influence on it.--Nohansen 21:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

well, DB run since 1984 and saint seiya since 1986. but yes it does not influence it.

• Keep This is relevant to a massively popular manga/anime series. I have used this article myself for research before. Just needs cleanup, which I'm happy to do.StayinAnon 19:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Smerge This is an important overarching concept to all the Dragonball series of manga and anime and as such would be hard to merge into just one of the articles it affects. It is also important to other post-Dragonball martial arts manga/anime such as Naruto etc. I propose merging only the fighting strength aspect into a new section in the Qi article under a heading called something like Qi in fiction. The long list of Dragonball power levels should be excised as it is hard to verify.[ie Wikipedia:V ] Coder Keitaro 21:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• If the Daihenzu is the reason for which many of you want to delete this article, we can erase it and keep all the numbers that are in the manga, some ask for more references and sources, but for example Kripton, the planet when superman has born, has his own wikipedia page. Where are the reference or sources, besides dc company?, and somebody wrote that the force was explaining by George Lucas and has a book and everything, Who anyway can prove that the force exist? its all fictional, if this page was made in Japan i bet nobody will suggest to delete it as nobody would touch Planet Kripton from superman.

• Strong Keep BrenDJ 15:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Merge Maybe we can add small sections to character pages and lists listing their PL instead of having the list there. -DDF 15:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment That is a wonderful Idea. DBZROCKS 19:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    • See, here's what you miss - power levels are unencyclopedic on Wikipedia. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, I believe this article should exist in it's entirety (with some obvious cleanup). However, if we are forced to merge (even though it seems like we won't be reaching a consensus here) this is clearly the best action to take as the power levels are certainly notable. StayinAnon 23:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
        • No, they aren't. This isn't a dumping ground for every anime guide in the universe. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
• But Dragon Ball is not just any anime, is the most popular manga-anime in the world. Europe, South America, Spain, France, Asia,etc. and even in your country. That you dislike it doesnt change the fact that millions love it, and even if the power levels numbers are erased, the article could stay.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.