Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kevin Haslam (football coach)

Kevin Haslam (football coach)

Non-notable minor college football coach and administrator, no substantive, independent articles about him. Fails WP:ATHLETE even on the broadest measure (his head coaching career has been in NAIA and low level colleges, not at the "highest level of amateur sports"), fails the prof test as well. Prod removed by creator stating "article has been improved and sources added," but the sources are still only from the schools in question and not independent, and none establish his notability per WP:BIO, WP:ATHLETE or WP:PROF. See prior AfDs at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter J. West, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ward A. Wescott, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Holm and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel. RGTraynor 15:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

keep in general for reasons outlined at the essay discussing college football coaches. But for more detail, see below in a point-by-point response:
- Fails WP:ATHLETE even on the broadest measure (his head coaching career has been in NAIA and low level colleges, not at the "highest level of amateur sports") No clear-cut definition is given at WP:ATHLETE what specifically measures the "highest level of amateur sports" for American football or any other sport. There is an established college football project that has discussed the matter thoroughly and continues to arrive on the conclusion that "college football" is the highest level of the amateur sport and not necessarily "NCAA Division I FBS" football. Reasons include avoiding violaitons of WP:NPOV, WP:NOTBIGENOUGH, and WP:IDONTLIKEIT as well as the benefits of maintaining the data. As a parallel, Wikipedia tends to keep all high school articles, regardless of student population size. There is also additional historical value, the potential merger of the NAIA and the NCAA, that schools sometimes switch from NAIA to NCAA, and teams sometimes compete across the organizing bodies. There are many, many reasons to support the point that NAIA college football programs are among the "highest level" of the sport.
- fails the prof test as well. This is also discussed on the essay in the section 'Academic Standards and how a game can be considered the athletic equivalent to an academic published paper. The essay goes into details that would be redundant to re-print here. Not covered in the essay is the additional point that the subject served as athletic director for at least two schools, which would qualify for criteria #5 "The person holds or has held a named/personal chair appointment... at a major institution of higher education and research." -- I maintain that both "head football coach" and "athletic director" would both be that appointment and meet that requirement.
- Prod removed by creator stating "article has been improved and sources added," but the sources are still only from the schools in question and not independent, Yes the prod was removed, as per recommended procedure and done in good faith. However, a quick survey of the sources show that while school sources are used, there are also sources outside the school: Topeka Capital-Journal, Northern Sun Conference, NJCFCA, and the College Football Data Warehouse.
- and none establish his notability per
  - WP:BIO, Meets basic criteria through multiple independent sources as stated under Bio's Basic critera as well as Additional criteria of a widely recognized contribution of being the founding coach or first football coach and athletic director of the football program at the University of Saint Mary.
  - WP:ATHLETE (discussed above)
  - or WP:PROF. (discussed above)
- See prior AfDs at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Walter J. West, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ward A. Wescott, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William McCracken, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Holm and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. J. Thiel These AfD discussions are about other coaches, not this coach. Yes, they can be useful and all editors are welcome to review them. There are also more to review at the college football notability essay Head Coach Notability Discussion Library and on the College Football Project page.
- Additional points: In previous AfD discussions listed above, nominator has accused the project of attempting to sidestep policy by making its own notability policy and expressing that as policy. While this has never been the intention, it is possible that an essay can be mis-interpreted and/or mis-applied as a policy. Please note the intent of the essay is to further enhance, clarify, and discuss policy as it pertains specifically to college football and not to overturn it. The essay provides the additional benefit of having potential repeated discussiosn in one place. Wikipedia encourages writing essays and that has been done (and continues to be done) at the college football project. Also, please note that on many occasions input has been requested from both inside and outside the college football project for feedback on the essay, and very little has been provied on that essay's talk page. This (along with the extended period of time) has given a form of pocket consensus or at least general acceptance of the concepts discussed in the essay. Anyone who would like to contribute to that essay to further assist editors in creating quality articles about college football is welcome to do so.--Paul McDonald (talk) 16:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Reply: Without indulging in an equally rambling counter essay, (1) In terms of college football, the near-unanimous consensus is that it applies to Division I NCAA football, the only demurrers being the aforementioned three or four editors at the CFB Wikiproject. NAIA is three rungs below that; (2) Mr. McDonald's sole rationale for Keep on a number of AfDs were "Per CFB:COACH," and when challenged, attempted at first to defend it on the grounds of achieving a broad consensus for it; (3) WP:BIO requires that ""Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail ..." I doubt many (beyond CFB, of course) would agree that a college with 683 undergrads is a "major" anything, or that being the founding coach in a NAIA program that size is a "widely recognized contribution;" and (4) That Mr. McDonald feels that "a game can be considered the athletic equivalent to an academic published paper" I don't argue, but I'd wager he'd be met at best with derision if he took that premise to the academic community. RGTraynor 18:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]