Talk:List of stock market crashes and bear markets

Points vs. percentage

From the FoxNews page linked to this page: "1 — 9/17/01: -684.81 points, -7.13 percent

2 — 4/14/00: -617.78, -5.66

3 — 10/27/97: -554.26, -7.18

4 — 8/31/98: -512.61, -6.37

5 — 10/19/87: -508.00, -22.61"

These are based on the top ten POINT losses in the DJIA. The first conclusion should be that POINT drops don't mean anything at all. It is the percentage drop that is important. I'd say there is only one crash on this list 10/19/87. Who remembers any of these other dates? Crashes should be something everybody in the market remembers, a once in a lifetime, or at most a once a decade, event. As far as I can tell there were only 4 crashes in the US in the 20th century: 1907, 1914, 1929, and 1987. People tend to put much too much garbage in here under crashes!

Smallbones (talk) 13:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The article doesn't mention anything about the 1914 crash...actually, I'm having trouble finding anything about it at all on the site. Chubbles (talk) 21:50, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Definition?

There seems to be some confusion here about the difference between a crash and a bear market. This confusion is also found in the Times article referenced, so it is not just us!

From our article on Stock market crash:

There is no numerically-specific definition of a crash but the term commonly applies to steep double-digit percentage losses in a stock market index over a period of several days. Crashes are often distinguished from bear markets by panic selling and abrupt, dramatic price declines. Bear markets are periods of declining stock market prices that are measured in months or years. While crashes are often associated with bear markets, they do not necessarily go hand in hand. The crash of 1987 for example did not lead to a bear market. Likewise, the Japanese Nikkei bear market of the 1990s occurred over several years without any notable crashes.

I'd say 10% is the minimum decline needed for a crash. But this should only be for large markets (e.g. US, UK). The smaller the market you look at, the more likely a 10% move, so for example there may have been dozens of 10% drops in the Vancouver Stock Exchange natural resource companies (but probably very few people would have noticed this). So for smaller markets, I'll suggest a 20% minimum decline before we call it a crash, along with some reliable source (not purely local) that says that it is notable.

Smallbones (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I question whether the subprime mortgage crisis belongs on this list. While it certainly has effects on the stock markets, as exhibited yesterday, it is a broader subject than that and not, in and of itself, a stock market crash. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 19:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Until experts and economists are calling this a crash, there is no need to list it here (especially unsourced). The closure and nationalization/merger of banks+AIG does not count as a "stock market crash", that is just failing companies. And the Subprime mortgage crisis (TWO YEAR EVENT) is not a stock market crash either. The case may be made in the years to come that today was a stock market crash, with the Dow Jones having its highest ever points drop, but until the definition says that the percentage drop doesn't have to be double figures, then we can think about listing it here. As most editors will say, this is a recent event, and the info can change quickly. This needs "historical" perspective before we start listing these here. I'm removing them. Deamon138 (talk) 22:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Most of the events listed in the article are bear markets, not crashes. For example, there never was a dotcom market "crash", just a bear market. The current situation is also a bear market. By definition, a bear market is a 20% decline in the stock market over a sustained period. As of October 7, 2008, the market was down 32% year-to-date.[1] --JHP (talk) 07:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Bear markets are NOT crashes

This list is incorrectly identifying bear markets as crashes. Crashes are sudden, usually single day events. Bear markets last months or years. To avoid confusing readers, I recommend creating a separate article for a list of bear markets. --JHP (talk) 12:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Go right ahead. People keep adding the events of September 29 on here as well, when that isn't a crash either. Create that article. In the meantime, I am reverting your edits back to my last edit, because the title of this article is "List of stock market crashes" not "List of stock market crashes and bear markets". If some of the examples in the list are bear markets (and I am sure some are, but I'm not confident to remove them) in your opinion, remove them instead of adding extra criteria at the top of the page. It may encourage people to add more bear markets otherwise. Thanks! Deamon138 (talk) 01:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Your revert made the article factually incorrect. It is not a list of stock market crashes as it currently exists. Making the article factually incorrect just so the introductory text can be consistent with the title is ridiculous. The content of the article is inconsistent with the title. I am reverting your revert because the article is incorrect in its current form. I am a WikiGnome; I have no intention of going through the effort of creating a new article. --JHP (talk) 07:33, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

An alternative would be to simply move this article to List of stock market crashes and bear markets. --JHP (talk) 07:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

should the current problem be added

The US the worst crisis since the great depression is happening, should that be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Not G. Ivingname (talk • contribs) 20:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This page needs to be updated. How can the largest daily downswings ever on the stock market (both occurring in the last week) not be mentioned? And we're talking about very sizable percentages as well as overall points -- especially since the peak last year. --Nihilozero (talk) 05:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Measuring in percentages is the only intelligent way to decide what gets listed. Journalists love to talk about point declines because it allows them to make a big deal about historically insignificant declines. We are not journalists. On Black Tuesday in 1929, the DJIA fell 68.9 points (23%).[2] By contrast, during this decade a 68.9 point drop in the Dow is almost insignificant. --JHP (talk) 08:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)