Lady and Talk:Septimus (Stardust): Difference between pages
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{{oldafdfull| date = 7 October 2008 (UTC) | result = '''no consensus''' | page = Septimus }} |
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{{otheruses}} |
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== == |
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A '''Lady''' is a [[woman]] who is the counterpart of a [[Lord]], as opposed to '''lady''', the counterpart of a [[gentleman]]. |
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I agree, and this movie is not the only use of the name Septimus. [[Special:Contributions/68.183.42.47|68.183.42.47]] ([[User talk:68.183.42.47|talk]]) 02:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC) |
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==Merge into [[Stardust (novel)]]== |
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[[Image:Lady gregory.jpg|thumb|200px|Portrait of [[Augusta, Lady Gregory]], who embodies British ladylike-ness.]] |
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This character is not notable enough for a stand-alone article, but certainly merits an expanded section within [[Stardust (novel)]], though the text needs to be shortened quite a bit. - [[User:Realkyhick|Realkyhick]] <small>([[User talk:Realkyhick|Talk to me]])</small> 22:38, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
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:Nonsense. --[[User:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|Jupiter Optimus Maximus]] ([[User talk:Jupiter Optimus Maximus|talk]]) 12:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC) |
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==Requested Move: Not Primary Meaning== |
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== Etymology and usage == |
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{{polltop}}} '''Move''': [[Septimius]] now redirects to [[Septimus]], which is now a disambig page. [[User:Anthony Appleyard|Anthony Appleyard]] ([[User talk:Anthony Appleyard|talk]]) 05:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC) |
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The word comes from [[Old English language|Old English]] ''hlǣfdige''; the first part of the word is a mutated form of ''hlāf'', "loaf, [[bread]]", also seen in the corresponding ''hlāford'', "lord". The second part is usually taken to be from the root ''dig-'', "to knead", seen also in [[dough]]; the sense development from bread-kneader, or bread-maker, or bread-shaper, to the ordinary meaning, though not clearly to be traced historically, may be illustrated by that of "lord". |
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*As you'll see from the above deletion discussion, the participants were in general agreement that this is not the primary article and should be disambiguated, it has been suggested that this page be moved to [[Septimus (Stardust)]] and a disambiguation page created here [[User:NullofWest|NullofWest]] [[User_talk:NullofWest#top|Fill the Void]] 23:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' this is not likely the relevant target, probably one of the Romans instead. [[Special:Contributions/70.51.10.188|70.51.10.188]] ([[User talk:70.51.10.188|talk]]) 04:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC) |
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The primary meaning of "mistress of a household" is now mostly obsolete, save for the term [[landlady]] and the occasional use of old-fashioned phrases such as "the little lady of the house." This meaning is retained, however, in the title [[First Lady]], used for the wife of an elected [[president]] or [[prime minister]]. In many [[European languages]] the equivalent term serves as a general [[form of address]] equivalent to the English ''[[Missus]]'' usually seen as ''Mrs.'' ([[French language|French]] ''[[Madame]]'', [[Spanish language|Spanish]] ''Señora'', [[Italian language|Italian]] ''Signora'', [[German language|German]] ''Frau'', [[Polish language|Polish]] ''Pani'', etc.). |
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{{pollbottom}} |
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The special use of the word as a title of the [[Mary the mother of Jesus|Virgin Mary]], usually ''Our Lady'', represents the [[Latin]] ''Domina Nostra''. In [[Lady Day]] and Lady Chapel the word is properly a [[genitive case|genitive]], representing ''hlǣfdigan'' "of the Lady". |
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The word is also used as a title of the [[Wicca]]n Goddess, ''The Lady''. |
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[[Image:JWW TheLadyOfShallot 1888.jpg|thumb|right|300px|[[John William Waterhouse]]'s ''[[The Lady of Shalott]]'', 1888 ([[Tate Gallery]], London)]] |
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== British usage == |
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As a title of nobility the uses of "Lady" are mainly paralleled by those of "Lord". It is thus a less formal alternative to the full title giving the specific rank, of [[marchioness (title)|marchioness]], [[countess]], [[viscountess]] or [[baron]]ess, whether as the title of the husband's rank by right or courtesy, or as the lady's title in her own right. A widow becomes the [[dowager]], e.g. ''The Dowager Lady Smith''. |
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In the case of sons of a [[duke]] or [[marquess]], who by courtesy have "Lord" prefixed to their given and family name, the wife is known by the husband's given and family name with "The Lady" prefixed, e.g. ''The Lady John Smith''. The daughters of dukes, marquesses and earls are by courtesy Ladies; here that title is prefixed to the given and family name of the lady, e.g. ''The Lady Jane Smith'', and this is preserved if the lady marries a [[commoner]], e.g. ''Mr John and The Lady Jane Smith''. The [[predicate]] 'The' should be used prior to "Lady" or "Lord" in all cases, except after a divorce for women who do not hold the courtesy title of "Lady" in their own right, e.g. [[Heather Mills|Heather, Lady McCartney]] or Jane, Lady Smith (the ex-wife of The Lord John Smith); cf [[Princess Diana|Diana, Princess of Wales]], that lady's final title after her divorce. |
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"Lady" is also the customary title of the wife of a [[baronet]] or [[knight]]. The proper title, now only used in [[legal documents]] or on [[sepulchral monuments]], is "[[Dame (title)|Dame]]". In the latter case, "Dame" is prefixed to the given name of the wife followed by the surname of the husband, thus ''Dame Jane Smith'', but in the former, "Lady" with the surname of the husband only, ''Sir John and The Lady Smith''. When a woman divorces a knight and he marries again, the new wife will be ''The Lady Smith'' while the ex-wife becomes ''Jane, The Lady Smith''. If a knight dies, his widow becomes ''Dowager Lady Smith'' (no ''the''). |
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In the [[United Kingdom]] The title "Lady" is also used for a woman who is a [[Laird]] in her own right, so instead of being "Laird Jane Smith" she would be styled as "Lady Jane Smith". This is the same for the wife of a Laird. |
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During the [[fifteenth century|15th]] and [[sixteenth century|16th centuries]] [[princess]]es or daughters of the [[Royal family|blood royal]] were usually known by their first names with "The Lady" prefixed, e.g. ''The Lady Elizabeth''; since [[Old English language|Anglo-Saxon]] did not have a female equivalent to [[prince]]s or [[earl]]s or other royals or nobles, aside from the [[queen]], women of royal and noble status simply carried the title of "Lady". |
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The euphemistic term "[[lady friend]]," often refers to a female one is involved with in a non-platonic way but who is not considered to be a girlfriend. |
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== More recent usage: social class == |
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In more recent years, usage of the word ''the lady'' is even more complicated. Journalist [[William Allen White]] noted one of the difficulties in his 1946 autobiography. He relates that a woman who had paid a fine for prostitution came to his newspaper to protest, not that the fact of her conviction was reported, but that the newspaper had referred to her as a "woman" rather than a "lady." Since that incident, White assured his readers, his papers referred to human females as "women", with the exception of [[justice of the peace|police court]] characters, who were all "ladies". |
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White's anecdote touches on a phenomenon that others have remarked on as well. In the late [[nineteenth century|nineteenth]] and early twentieth century, in a difference reflected in [[Nancy Mitford]]'s essay "[[U and non-U English|U vs. non-U]]", [[lower class]] women strongly preferred to be called "ladies" while women from higher social backgrounds were content to be identified as "women." [[Alfred Ayers]] remarked in 1881 that upper middle class female store clerks were content to be "saleswomen," while lower class female store clerks, for whom their job represented a social advancement, indignantly insisted on being called "salesladies." Something of this sense may also be underneath [[Rudyard Kipling|Kipling]]'s lines: |
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:''The Colonel's lady and Rosie O'Grady —'' |
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:''Sisters under the skin'' |
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These [[social class]] issues, while no longer on the front burner in the twenty-first century, have imbued the formal use of "lady" with something of an odour of [[irony]] (e.g: "my cleaning lady"). |
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It remains in use [[colloquially]], for example, as a counterpart to "[[gentleman]]," in the phrase "[[ladies and gentlemen]]," and is generally interchangeable (in a strictly informal sense) with "woman" (as in, "The lady at the store said I could return this item within thirty days."). "Ladies" is also the normal text on the signs to any female [[toilet]] in a public place in the UK, again paired with "Gentlemen" (or "Gents"). |
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== More recent usage: sexism (US) == |
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[[Non-sexist language]] guidelines forbid its use to refer attributively to the sex of a working person, as in ''lady [[lawyer]]'' and ''lady [[Physician|doctor]]''. Many find these to have a condescending nuance not shared by ''female lawyer'' or ''woman doctor''; compare ''[[poetess]]'' for a similar problem. |
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Advocates of non-sexist language recommend not using the word at all, whereas others permit its parallel use in the same circumstances in which a man would be called a gentleman or lord (for example, titling washrooms ''Men'' and ''Ladies'' would be considered sexist, but using either ''Men'' and ''Women'' or ''Ladies'' and ''Gentlemen'' would be acceptable; as is ''landlady'' as the parallel of ''landlord''.) |
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In the United States, notably among younger [[feminists]] of the 1990s and 00s influenced by [[riot grrl]], "lady" has occasionally been reclaimed in a more [[irony|ironic]] fashion. For example, [[Miranda July]]'s [[Joanie 4 Jackie]] [[chain letter]] [[videotape]] project is said to consist of "lady-made movies," a feminist music and video [[distributor]] in [[North Carolina]] called itself [[Mr. Lady Records]], and chorus of [[Le Tigre]]'s song "LT Tour Theme" from the album Feminist Sweepstakes (2000) declares itself to be written "for the ladies and the fags." |
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There are also worldwide feminist music and art festivals which the young feminists call [[ladyfest]]s. |
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== Ladies in fiction == |
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* [[Lady of the Lake]] - A prominent figure in the [[Arthurian legends]]. |
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* Lady Macbeth - The clever and conniving wife of Macbeth in [[Shakespeare]]'s ''[[Macbeth]]''. |
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* Lady Catherine de Bourgh - [[Fitzwilliam Darcy|Mr Darcy]]'s aunt in [[Jane Austen]]'s ''[[Pride and Prejudice]]''. |
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* [[Lady Susan]] - protagonist of an unpublished novel by [[Jane Austen]]. |
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* [[Lady Honoria Dedlock|Lady Dedlock]] - Wife of the baronet Sir Leicester Dedlock in [[Charles Dickens]]'s ''[[Bleak House]]''. |
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* Lady Bracknell - Gwendolen Fairfax's mother in [[Oscar Wilde]]'s iconic play ''[[The Importance of Being Earnest]]''. |
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* [[Milady de Winter]] - The antagonist of [[Alexandre Dumas, père]]'s novel ''[[The Three Musketeers]]''. |
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* Lady Windermere - Lady with unblemished reputation from [[Oscar Wilde]]'s [[Lady Windermere's Fan|Lady Windermere's Fan: A Play About a Good Woman]]. |
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* Lady Chatterley - the title character in [[D. H. Lawrence]]'s scandalous novel ''[[Lady Chatterley's Lover]]'' |
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* Lady Westholme - A running candidate of Parliament from [[Agatha Christie]]'s ''[[Appointment With Death]]''. |
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* Lady Hester Random - Autocratic dowager in ''[[Tea with Mussolini]]''. |
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* Ladies [[Galadriel]], [[Éowyn]], and [[Arwen]] from ''[[Lord of the Rings]]''. |
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* [[Lady Jessica]] - Of the [[House Atreides]] in the ''[[Dune]]'' series. |
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* [[Lady Cassandra]] - ''[[Doctor Who]]'' villain, who appeared in "[[The End of the World (Doctor Who)|The End of the World]]" (2005) and "[[New Earth]]" (2006). |
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* Lady Everglot - The lady of the family Everglots, from ''[[Corpse Bride]]''. |
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* Lady Portia Herrington Briggs in Tyne O'Connell's ''Calypso Chronicles''. |
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==References== |
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* ''Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage'' (Merriam-Webster, 1989), ISBN 0-87779-132-5. |
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{{1911}} |
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{{Social titles}} |
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[[Category:Titles]] |
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[[Category:Women's social titles]] |
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[[Category:Noble titles]] |
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[[Category:Women by social class]] |
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[[br:Itron]] |
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[[cy:Arglwyddes]] |
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[[de:Lady]] |
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[[fr:Lady]] |
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[[gv:Benchiarn]] |
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[[gd:Baintighearna]] |
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[[gd:Bantiarna]] |
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[[kw:Arloedhes]] |
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[[no:Lady]] |
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[[pt:Lady]] |
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[[ru:Дама]] |
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[[sv:Kvinna av stånd]] |
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Latest revision as of 19:32, 12 October 2008
 | This article was nominated for deletion on 7 October 2008 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
[edit]
I agree, and this movie is not the only use of the name Septimus. 68.183.42.47 (talk) 02:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Merge into Stardust (novel)[edit]
This character is not notable enough for a stand-alone article, but certainly merits an expanded section within Stardust (novel), though the text needs to be shortened quite a bit. - Realkyhick (Talk to me) 22:38, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Nonsense. --Jupiter Optimus Maximus (talk) 12:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Requested Move: Not Primary Meaning[edit]
- The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was} Move: Septimius now redirects to Septimus, which is now a disambig page. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- As you'll see from the above deletion discussion, the participants were in general agreement that this is not the primary article and should be disambiguated, it has been suggested that this page be moved to Septimus (Stardust) and a disambiguation page created here NullofWest Fill the Void 23:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Support this is not likely the relevant target, probably one of the Romans instead. 70.51.10.188 (talk) 04:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.