Bibra

I started this page under the title Afro textured hair. 'Natural hair' doesn't make sense because White people with straight blonde hair have natural hair. The woman whos picture is displayed cannot possibly be considered as having afro textured hair, that is clearly frizzy/wavy hair. The information is fallacious and downright silly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.9.141 (talk) 20:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

since when did afro-textured hair only come in the form of an afro? it ranges from tightly coiled to completely straight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.80.90 (talk) 14:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I moved the article to "Natural afro-hair". If you can come up with a less awkward title go ahead and retitle it.

Wikinist (talk) 22:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

old

This article should also address the country's negative attitude towards natural hair. Such as The Baltimore Police Dept policy against natural hair styles (which is currently rescinded) or Six Flag's policy against "Extreme Hairstyles" which included dredlocs, cornrows, or Hampton University's ban on dredlocs, braids or cornrows for their business administration students. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.157.183.146 (talk • contribs) 08:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if you could find some good references for that and update the article yourself. You don't even need to login. Chovain 23:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the term "African-American" refers to ONE particular segment of the African disapora. The term "natural hair" is used by many other peoples of African decent to refer to their hair in its unprocessed form, including Caribbean blacks, and those of European origin. For this reason, the definition of this term is incorrect in that it leads the reader to believe that popular usage of this term originated with and resides mainly with Americans of African descent. This is far from true.

The thing with the care

I just wanted to ask... I have my natural hair, it's about 10cm now and... well I actually do the opposite of the advices given in the article. I wash it about every day and I don't use some special shampoo, just plain simple stuff. And my hair is everything but broken and messed up. So I don't really get the sense of this hole care-taking thing... why did you add that? Everybody does the haircare like he/she always did it and everybody does it different. It's not like you would give some advices at the page about jacking off or something like that (I hope you get the metapher)... --ቢትወደድ 19:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What the hell with the care thing ?! What did black people do before the invention of conditionner ? The section should be purely deleted or it should be mentioned that in the US it is the way some hair dressers would recommand to treat the hair. This method is far from being universal or seen as the best way to take care of hair.

I agree. I put the Essay template up because I didn't want to just delete it without soliciting a bit more input (I don't like to make big bold edits like that--I usually leave that for other, more decisive people). But I should say that type of info belongs over on Wikibooks. It might be salvageable if it can be sourced and turned into a discussion of research surrounding proper care using ATTRIBUTED SOURCES, but WP is not a place to put how-tos. cluth 08:04, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree, to a point. The article is about the nature of Natural hair. The nature of care issues, definitely belongs. But the current section needs significant work. DocGratis 00:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It needs to be removed. There is not one universal way to care for this hair type. Any hair care advise is subjective, not the rule. I'm deleting it as I don't think it's necessary to have a hair care section anyway. Generalhoneypot 16:36, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture

Thats a pretty bad, non-encyclopedic picture... did she take it herself on some webcam? There should be a better picture of the actual hair, with better resolution.

What's up with the text under the pic? Young "ape"?! Does the pic even need text? Am I being neurotic, out-of-touch -- ape is totally offensive, right? If we are going to worry about nappy. . .

Natural Hair?

That may be natural hair for some, but not all people. Rename this article to Afro-textured hair. --66.218.17.209 22:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking that too. Also, when i think of natural hair i think of hair thats NOT colored/dyed or treated. ie, Natural. Coojah 07:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not have a problem with a name change, however sources for a better term would be need. Previous discussion has pointed out how "black hair" and "African hair" are not very accurate. Additionally, the term "Natural Hair" legitimate term. DocGratis 14:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be renamed, and the part about not bleaching or coloring should be taken out, as coloring your hair is not the same as altering texture. The colored hair would still retain the afro, nappy, natural, etc. texture. Itsmeiam 02:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree aswell, why is this article called natural hair when any type of hair could be natural and this article is specifically reffering to afro-texutured hair, most common to sub-saharan african descendants. The tittle is to general and it could constitute of any hair type, that's why the tittle should be cahnged to something like "Afro-textured hair" to be more accurate.

East African

You may want to modify the page a little. Many people of North Africa and also East Africa have different textured hair. See Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan.

I agree, North Africans and East Africans have various textures present in their phenotype. I also propose adding peoples of the Sahel, who also exhibit varying phenotypes, like the Foulah, and the Tuareg. Some examples:

Somalian boy

Nigerien women

Peul

Tuareg girls —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garnettgotit (talk • contribs) 15:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

Nappy

I'm wondering if the term 'nappy' is considered an offensive word? Note the recent firing of radio personality Don Imus over the use of the term "nappy headed hos" which was taken to not only be offensive to women, but also racially offensive. If this is the case, perhaps the term 'nappy' itself is considered offensive to some. If so, perhaps some comment to that effect should be included when using the word in the article. It is not a word I have ever knowingly used, but at the same time, it is not a word I knew to avoid. Is the word offensive in and of itself, or only when used in an offensive context? I'd be interested in hearing what people think.(unsigned)

I have tried to restore and expand the article to reference sections about negative connotations of nappy and other adjectives for natural hair. I do not have any sources at hand, and I can not currently find any free sources to read and site. Work is needed. DocGratis 11:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Remember Eddie Murphy in Coming to America -- his hair was 'nappy'. By the way, nappy-headed ho is not exactly the same as just saying 'nappy head' or 'nappy head dread' -- see Rastafarian about how this dialectal term is considered part of the Rastafarian language. 70.5.209.207 00:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect article title

Really, this was surely not what I expected to read about when I saw an article named "Natural hair". It's a simple sentence really, it's hair that happens to be natural (not dyed, for example). I fail to see what this has to do with "afro-hair", or better, I fail to see how can the main topic of this article be about "afro-hair", when it could at most be just another example.

It is because "natural hair" is how many people refer to the natural texture of black hair, as many Black women, especially in America, use chemicals to alter the texture of their hair. Itsmeiam 02:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The article title implies that other races cannot have "natural hair" -- that it can only be possessed by black people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.43.48.129 (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Hey, I don't know how to correct this, but the link to the Disambiguation page at the top of the screen reads "“Nappy hair” redirects here. For other users, see Nappy (disambiguation)." I think it should say "For other USES," not "For other USERS."

The article is messy

I just tried cleaning this article up. But it's quite difficult because it's trying to explain how people from across different countries/continents/cultures refer to "Afro Textured Hair". This article is trying to present one accepted world view of Afro hair and there just isn't one, not least because there are many different types of African hair. As a result, it ends up with a rambling disclaimer at the beginning, which excludes North Africans and other Africans without "Afro Textured Hair/Black Hair/Natural Hair". 99% of it then goes on to be about what Afro Hair means in relation to America, but then maybe that's the point. Maybe it should be Afro Textured Hair in America so the pretence of this article being international can be dropped. Generalhoneypot 16:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Hampton University

Why was the part about Hampton University banning certain natural hairstyles (cornrows and dreadlocks) for their business students taken out?

Afro textured hair

this is a better title, than natural hair. Muntuwandi 00:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

degrees of afro texture hair?

are different degrees of afro texture hair? Plus I was wondering if any one has a better picture. The current one is not typical of afro texture hair.YVNP 01:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Education

I do agree that the title of the article needs to be changed. African-Americans/Black-Americans are so used to seeing life through their eyes rarely realizing that there is a whole world of African descendants outside of America. If you change the title and show that there are different types of textures to African/Black hair then it would open everyones eyes and brige a mental gap in which...African Americans sitll have a lot to learn about themselves and bring new hair care alternatives about. Its time for a new perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeon0nline (talk • contribs) 04:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

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I disagree with this page. First of all, I have no idea how there can be different textures of tightly curled/afro textured hair. If afro-textured hair ranges from straight to tightly curled (that alone doesn't make any sense because 'afro textured' is synonymous with tightly curled), what makes it 'afro textured'? There are three basic hair textures, straight/wavy, loosely curled and tightly curled. Only Black people have tightly curled hair and I'm very proud of that. I also have no clue how the woman whos picture is displayed can possibly be considered as having tightly curled/afro textured hair. I'm not interested going back and forth with the editing, please stop redirecting people from my ATH page to your Natural hair page (which also doesn't make sense because most human beings, Black, White, Red, Yellow or Brown, have 'natural' hair.). I started this page but I'm letting it go without arguement, I simply want my own ATH page and you can have your natural hair page. Thank you.

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by Do for self (talk • contribs) 19:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

European curly / kinky / hard

I'm pretty sure I've seen people of european ascent ascent with this sort of hair roots (well I've not actually looked at the roots). The article "Afro textured hair" apparently neglects that and actually states that it's only present on the "Black race". I think it's more common with black hair, and perhaps specially common on jews, but I've seen it in blondes and redhaired people as well. The first picture of a woman in the red hair article shows a woman with hais which are at least not quite straight; Gene Wilder also comes to my mind. I'm not quite sure whether that would be due to recent african ancestry. And even so, that would mean that in many cases they would be black only due to the silly "one drop rule" pro-slavery related thing, where even people of straight hair and blue eyes could be considered to be "black"-thus-slaves. Is there real evidence that it only exists in europeans due to recent african miscigenation? I think that only asians and amerindians have "universal" straight (and much straighter) hair. --Extremophile 17:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Hampton University

Why was the part about Hampton University limiting its hairstyles (i.e. cornrowns/dreadlocks) for its business major students deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.237.8.67 (talk) 14:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

How did Afro-hair come about?

Greetings: I just finished an entry explaining the scientific evidence concerning why Africans (et al) may have initially developed this unique hair type. Its in the 'adaptation' section. Let me know whether it is comprehensible. Thanks. Afiya27 (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It came about as an adaptation to create less hairoverall. This is the same reason Africans have less body hair. Afro texture hair grows slower and covers less of the headYVNP (talk) 17:53, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

'Native' African?

Someone keeps changing the term 'black' African to 'native' African. IMO, native African is confusing. What makes one a native? The lighter skinned Berbers and the Arabs in North Africa have been there for 1,000+ years. Aren't they natives? What's wrong with calling dark skinned people with natural Afro-hair 'black'? Does the term have negative connotations to someone? If so, haven't you hear of the 'black is beautiful' movement following the American civil rights movement? It's OKAY to be called black. It can be liberating in a way. Yes, no one's skin is really pitch black, but its more symbolic than anything else. What's the big deal? Afiya27 (talk) 22:59, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The Reason Why I changed it.

The reason why I changed the 'Black African' to 'Native African' is the same reason you are arguing with me about the correct usage of the word 'Native', this can also be said of the same word 'Black' no single person of African descent truly has black skin we might have at the most extreme very dark brown skin but definetly not black skin. I do agree with you that black is beautiful but we might overly stress the color association with our descent in society this is why I changed it to Native African because before slavery and coloniztion we did not have this color association with ourselves we were just simply Africans. We are the only group of people who assiociate themselves sometimes more with a color than with their native land and one day I hope to change this in a big way. I agree with the Doctor who also does not like the term 'black people' as it denotes a color assiociation versus contential or regional association. I also would like to add that somebody deleted the refernces to the ethnic groups of Nubia, Tigray, and Somalia that I had put up in to mention those of Ethnic African descent who do not have afro textured hair. I would like to hear back to you and see what you think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wufei05 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

In thinking....

In thinking of your terms of Black Africans it should be noted that this name has been changed many times by many users which show a higher degree of progessiveness among those who rather not be futher Disenfrachised by still having them denied the full unmitigated African Heritage. And not 'Black African' which in some ways makes Native Africans a minority population in the same way 'Black American' are in the U.S. In addition, it should be noted that there is an Objection to the use of the word Black when describing Native Africans as noted by Owen 'Alik Shahadah as well as a small but notable objection to the use of Sub-Saharan Africans. And finally it should also be noted that any population that has at one time left in whole from one area to another over a substantial amount of time are no longer Native to that area and furthermore in a thousand years Native Americans will still be the only Native Americans. The term Native is not meant to disenfranchise those of Arab or North African descent but the people of this group would more than likely self indentfy as Arab or perhaps Middle Eastern before they describe themselves as Africans which is probalby the most important thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wufei05 (talk • contribs) 08:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the point in denying the obvious that it is mainly Black people who have Afro-textured hair unless they are admixed or aren't really black at all. It seems to me that certain people who have contributed to this article will do any and everything to deny this obvious fact, and would prefer instead to hide behind ridiculous, empty labels like "Native African" (FYI, Africa is made up of many races, not just Black folks) when it's specifically Black people that have Afro-textured hair. It's almost as if these contributors were ashamed to admit that that type of hair is, in fact, what sprouts out of the head of over 95% of blacks, no matter where in the world the latter may dwell. Instead of assuming their blackness with pride as Afiya has perceptively addressed, these folks instead run away from it and name-drop peoples that aren't even related to them in a bid to show that not all Africans have kinky hair. But this isn't an article on all Africans; it's an article on Afro-textured hair and by consequence all the populations who actually have it i.e. almost exclusively Black people.

No one is denying anything.

Im not denying anything but if you look at my earlier responses I explained the over use of the term Black people as something that has gotten some people of African descent away from the self association with a continent a more with a color i.e. your blackness. If we are going to relegate to being called by our self associative color and not by our motherland then its not the right direction nor is it accurate term when describing any group of people. With all that being said no one has a problem being called a black person but if is going to being cultural and physical accurate then it should reflect the heritage and the shared background more than it should the 'percieved' skin color. And lets not forget colored & negro dont reflect any orignative heritage like the word AFRICAN does. Let me know what you think ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wufei05 (talk • contribs) 01:14, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

No, you don't get it. Africa is not just inhabited by black people; how hard is it for you to understand that? It is therefore not only wrong, but outright misleading to use in the article the hollow term "Native African" in place of "Black African" when it is specifically and overwhelmingly Black people that have Afro-textured hair. This gives readers the wrong impression that Afro-textured hair is somehow also characteristic of other non-Black Africans when it is of course specifically characteristic of only Black Africans. Like I wrote earlier, this all smacks of self-hate on the part of certain contributors and a reluctance on their part to truly admit what the rest of the world already knows and has always known: that Afro-textured hair really is a "Black thing". The question is, are these contributors truly "proud" enough to admit that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.214 (talk) 04:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan African?

Wufei, please explain what's wrong with this term (sub-Saharan African) according to the scholars you quote? Thanks. Afiya27 (talk) 15:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I dont want to think.....

I dont want you to think that Im getting into because Im having an edit war or dont like you. But my point is that there have been many terms to describe people of African descent Colored, Negro, Black. People of African descent have worn each of the labels proudly too but none of these say where these people come from or mention a shared cultural thing or region of origin like the words Arab, Asian, Native American, Latino, Indian. We dont call far eastern Asians; Yellow Asians, and call Indo-Asians; Brown Asians or Native Americans; Red Americans, so with that in mind why do 'Black' Africans get called Black Africans. There is no doubt that in the U.S. and some other western countries people of African descent get called Black and we where it proudly But within our continent we get get Black African like if Native African is too 'empowering' or something or because it disenfranchises our Northern Arab neighbors. I'm not saying that Im saying that we should be called what we think is accurate and respective to all other, after we stood up and said dont call us coloreds anymore, dont call us 'boy' anymore, dont call us Negro anymore call us where come from with out the use of the color adjective, also when you think about it there's a thing called Pan-Africanism not Pan-Blacknism or Pan-Black Africanism just Pan-Africanism. James Brown was the first to say it Im Black and Im Proud, I have that and whole lot a African Pride too ;). I hope you understand where Im coming from. Let me know what you think. Oh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wufei05 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I hear you, but it still in no way changes the fact that it is black people/Black Africans/Negroes that are defined by Afro-textured hair, not "Native Africans". Berbers and co. are just as "native" to Africa as black folks are. However, they most certainly are not defined by Afro-textured hair, which is the subject of this article. Using the name "Native African" completely disregards this fact. Since it is almost exclusively blacks who have Afro-textured hair, using the term "Native African" in lieu of "Black African" rather chauvinistically misleads readers into believing that either the term "Native African" only refers to blacks at the expense of Africa's other native non-Black inhabitants, or that Afro-textured hair is also characteristic of Berbers, etc. (which it of course is not) since they too are native to the African continent. Either way, it's misleading and inaccurate. The subject of this article has nothing to do with James Brown, or Pan-Africanism, or any of that stuff. It's about Afro-textured hair and the people who have it, not "Native Africans"; just a particularly type of African/displaced African: Blacks/Black Africans/Negroes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.222.34 (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Black American Or African American

I was just thinking that with your explanation of African peoples like the Berbers and the Northerners it would mean that they would also be called African Americans if I apply your reasoning. However they are not, and until such a time occurs then we should respect that difference.