Himesh Reshammiya

What to do now for FA?

Hi everyone. Progress on the article seems to have stopped. I am not sure why a restructuring is necessary or whether any of the things on the to-do list are still outstanding. I would like to see the article resubmitted for judgement as soon as possible. Also, although I dread to raise this, is there now consensus on the illustrations. I thought there was consensus that the box diagram was misleading and should go????Itsmejudith (talk) 12:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It has been suggested that this article be cut and pasted into History of solar power and the article be restructured, taking out all the duplication from all the sub-articles. If you look at the SEIA (Solar Energy Industries Association) website, there are only four ways to use solar energy: "There are four ways we harness solar energy: photovoltaics (converting light to electricity), heating and cooling systems (solar thermal), concentrating solar power (utility scale), and lighting." Normally unless something has radically changed there is no point in resubmitting an article right away. Apteva (talk) 01:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm perfectly happy to have a History of solar power article, but I don't think that very much of this article should go into it. And I'm not particularly impressed by the SEIA idea that there are exactly four ways we harness solar energy. That is one way of grouping the technologies, but it is only one way. It also leaves out solar water purifiying, desalination and several other applications we mention here. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The SEIA grouping also leaves out hydropower, wind power, and agriculture which are other ways we use solar energy. Fossil fuels represent stored (ancient) solar energy according to mainstream geological theory. Most energy available to humans derives ultimately from solar energy, with some exceptions including nuclear power, geothermal power, and tidal power. However, by convention we usually consider the indirect applications of solar energy to be separate topics. Thus the SEIA should not say "there are only four ways" but rather, "We find it convenient to arbitrarily recognize four of the ways..." --Teratornis (talk) 18:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I noticed the quote from the SEIA says "There are four ways...", and does not say "only." The word "only" appears to reflect Apteva's reading of the quote. The phrase "there are four" may be technically correct if there are at least four, but many people might read it as exactly four, as I did initially. --Teratornis (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I was reviewing part of the SEIA website and noticed this page. [1] They combine solar lighting in with Passive Solar and leave out some sections (Chemical, Agriculture, Vehicles) but there's plenty of organizational overlap and I'd say this tends to validate the basic layout of the technologies on this page. Mrshaba (talk) 08:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

12-Year-Old May Hold Key to Solar Energy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/zd/20080919/tc_zd/232218 Bioye (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

That article seems to have been written by a reporter who knows little or nothing about physics or solar energy. It makes the extraordinary claim: "...one 12-year-old boy may have the key to making solar panels that can harness 500 times the light of a traditional solar cell." The only way to get more light to a solar cell is to use some sort of mirror or lens to concentrate the light, but the article says nothing about that. Thus the "500 times" statement makes little sense, since "traditional solar cells" already harness about one fifth of the incident light energy. One fifth is one hundred times greater than one five hundredth as the article implies. The rest of the article rambles vaguely without explaining the bizarre claim it opens with. Unfortunately, popular press accounts of the field of energy have some examples of poor writing, which both result from and prey on the general public's lack of understanding of basic concepts from physics and engineering. For example, see Water-fuelled car and Perpetual motion machine. If you can find some reliable sources that describe this 12-year-old boy's invention coherently, you can work them into the appropriate article(s) on Wikipedia. The link you gave does not appear to be a reliable source, at least with respect to its claim about the conversion efficiency of this solar cell. The source may be reliable about the name of the boy and the award he won, since the reporter needs no special training to relay those facts correctly. --Teratornis (talk) 18:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I should add that people do not necessarily judge the work of a 12-year-old as they would judge the work of an adult. When an adult invents something, we want to know whether it works. When a child invents something, we want to know what the invention says about the inventive potential of the child - whether the invention actually works or could reach commercial scale is secondary, because we're thinking about what the child will do in the future. When I was a child, I cooked up some fantastic ideas too, but none of them amounted to anything. It would be very hard for a child to produce a real breakthrough in the field of energy technology, because the field is very mature, and thus a child needs years of training just to catch up to current practice in some particular area. By the time the child knows enough to actually innovate, the child is usually an adult. --Teratornis (talk) 18:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

http://www.davidsongifted.org/fellows/Article/Davidson_Fellows___2008_405.aspx#table14 says

"In his project, “High Efficient 3-Dimensional Nanotube Solar Cell for Visible and UV Light,” William invented a novel solar panel that enables light absorption from visible to ultraviolet light. He designed carbon nanotubes to overcome the barriers of electron movement, doubling the light-electricity conversion efficiency. William also developed a model for solar towers and a computer program to simulate and optimize the tower parameters. His optimized design provides 500 times more light absorption than commercially-available solar cells and nine times more than the cutting-edge, three-dimensional solar cell." [emph added]

The "doubling" claim is extraordinary, but not impossible. I don't know what the "500 times" figure is supposed to mean. Maybe only 1/500th as much is not being absorbed?

—WWoods (talk) 00:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The only way I see to make sense of the "500 times" is to assume "solar towers" refers to placing the solar cell at the focus of a Solar power tower. Thus the solar cell would have to be extremely durable. The first article still sounds a bit overblown because the total system cost for a solar power tower would still be high, even if putting solar cells at the focus would be cheaper than using a thermal collector. You still need the heliostats and so on. Or maybe a hybrid system could use both, by cooling the solar cells with a working fluid that could then drive a heat engine. One advantage of the solar power tower is its ability to store heat energy in a reservoir of working fluid, allowing it to generate electricity for several hours after sunset. The thermal system also buffers brief interruptions in sunlight due to passing clouds, whereas photovoltaic cells would vary all over the place. Even if solar cells double in bang per buck, they still cost more than modern wind turbines. Still, this item is interesting and might go into some subsidiary article, perhaps if we get a more coherent description of what exactly the young inventor came up with, and what effect it could have on the industry. (Although WP:CRYSTAL may apply.) --Teratornis (talk) 07:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any need to put it in the article at all. On the other hand the CSP article needs a better explanation of concentrating solar power using photovoltaics (here is the entire body of the article: "Technologies: Concentrating solar thermal (CST) and Concentrating PV (CPV) are the Concentrating solar power technologies.") - there is one company that I know of that is using a 1,000 to 1 concentration on the photovoltaic cell, using a parabolic mirror in two axes to concentrate the sunlight onto a 2.5 x 2.5 (approx) cm photocell. It also provides an equal amount of heat output - for every 1 kW electricity, they provide 1 kW heat as well, in the form of hot water. When you think about it, concentrating photovoltaics makes a lot more sense than flat panel photovoltaics, because for the price of a piece of 1/8th inch plywood and a roll of aluminum foil you can effectively multiply the efficiency of your silicon by a factor of 10 or even 100. You are not getting any more energy per square meter of land area, but you are concentrating the sun onto a smaller area and using less silicon for the same power output. The solar field is robust, but has a lot of evolving left to do, and somewhere between 1 and 1,000 an optimum number will eventually fall out (I think a fresnel lens gives a concentration of 2 or so). In reading the article, what the 500 number means is that the 12 year old is concentrating the sun by 500 and shining it on a complex surface with nanotubes etc just like a multilayer photovoltaic cell to extract a higher efficiency than available from a single cell solar panel. Apteva (talk) 01:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Graphic showing input scales

So what is wrong with the graphic? It is sourced and appropriate to the topic. -- Skyemoor (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Would you like to look back at the previous discussions, Skyemoor. Also, compare this graphic with the source that is given. You will see that the graphic itself is not sourced at all. Some figures have been plucked out of the source graphic. The combination of them that has been made makes no sense. At all. It really doesn't. This is a very good example of why we don't publish original research. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

A glance back in this section and the last archive doesn't show such a discussion. The solar, wind, hydro, and geothermal matches the indication verifiable source, though the consumption in the source is in BTUs, which would need to be converted to TWhr, a energy measurement instead of a power (energy flux) measurement as noted for the renewable energy sources. So while a graphic of sourced information is not of and by itself WP:OR as long as its scales can be determined, the subject graphic as it stands is incorrect. --Skyemoor (talk) 15:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussions go further back and I'll look them out for you. The solar does not match the figure in the source graphic, at least it certainly does not if it is to be interpreted as "usable" solar. It includes all the solar energy incident upon the ocean, which if it were all used for human needs - depending how because it is such a completely hypothetical case - would mean that the hydrological cycle would be shut off. So much then for the quantity given for "hydro", if by hydro is meant generation from dams on rivers. Conversion of units is not in itself a problem. Taking figures from two sources produced for completely different purposes is. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

There's no problem taking information from more than one source, especially when one deals with inputs and the other deals with consumption. I can see your concern if the "solar" cube is not more carefully defined. However, such raw projections should not be disallowed, as any number of innovations could be implemented to harness solar power in the oceans. And the issue is not with conversion of units; it's with different types of units (energy vs. power). --Skyemoor (talk) 17:33, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Many issues have been raised against the box diagram from multiple people.

• Talk:Solar energy/Archive5#RFC pictures
• Image selection
• Picture change
• Same picture different place

One issue with the picture is that the main source used for the diagram talks about EXERGY rather than ENERGY so the data is being interpreted off the top. A second issue is that the boxes are three dimensional but they are comparing one dimensional quantities. This skews the comparison of the quantities so that you're left comparing the numbers themselves and you could do this more clearly with a table or text. A third issue is that the diagram itself is a low quality picture - a consensus has established this. A fourth issue is that there isn't enough space in the area for another picture so the layout gets wonky with multiple pictures. Mrshaba (talk) 18:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing these points to light; I now have a better understanding and agree that the image does not adequately compare potential sources of renewable energy. -- Skyemoor (talk) 18:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It is, however the best image we have to compare them. If you would like to create an alternate, have at it. Here are the ones available that I know of.

• 
  1
• 
  2
• 
  3
• 
  4

Take your pick. All of the data in 3 and 4 come from the same source. A separate reference is given for consumption, but the same number is used in the source used for all the other items. Exergy is useful energy. There isn't any other kind of energy that is interesting. See this discussion (a misguided attempt to delete the image which did provoke some interesting responses about depicting data as an area or a volume). There are at least 3 other images in the article that are far less important than this one, if you wish to limit the number of images. This image has been in the article for a year and a half and there is no reason to delete it now. My only question is do users prefer 2, 3, or 4? Apteva (talk) 07:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems you added the image last September with this edit. The Rfc followed in October and several people voiced displeasure with the diagram at that time. It has been removed dozens of times by multiple editors. Mrshaba (talk) 08:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. It is an important part of the article. Of course once in a while someone comes along with the intent to sabotage the article and takes it out but it always gets restored. I find it especially telling that someone with a background of working for the nuclear industry would "lose interest" in the project now that they are no longer working at a nuclear power plant, yet only come back to voice opposition to this important image. Apteva (talk) 16:15, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I am an engineer with a background in solar engineering, and modeled/designed the passive solar aspects of my home and specified the grid-tied PV system with battery backup, so I'm not anti-solar in any stretch of the imagination. If you want to portray the information in the article, I suggest you find a government diagram that captures what you desire, then determine its efficacy here. The current set of diagrams above are incorrect per my comments above. --Skyemoor (talk) 17:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with either 2, 3 or 4 above. Many of the government diagrams are not Public Domain, so it is necessary to create them from the underlying data, as was done above. By your "comments above" you are, I take it, referring to the comments of Mrshaba, and not "So what is wrong with the graphic? It is sourced and appropriate to the topic."? I can not say that I have any background in solar engineering, though it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see from the diagram above that there might be sufficient solar energy available to meet all of our needs, something that is much better expressed in a diagram than in numbers, as numbers mean nothing to the average person, even to the average policy maker. I'm not advocating anything, I'm trying to find out the facts. The three fundamental questions, to me, that this article should address, are 1) how much solar energy is available, which is addressed by this diagram, 2) how much land area would it require, which is addressed by a separate diagram, and 3) how much would it cost, which is currently missing from the article. I really don't care a lot about anything other than addressing those three questions. I recently saw someone throw out a number of 45 Trillion dollars to convert to renewable energy, if I can find it again I can add it, if it is relevant. I do have a personal goal of starting a Gobi Desert project to create a solar project that sold 80% of the electricity produced and used 20% of its output to create more solar panels and sell 20% of the panels for revenue, but kept 80% to slowly march across the desert, with the goal of eventually meeting all of Asia's energy demand. The cost of the project would actually be zero, because it would be self sustaining. Apteva (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Admirable goals, we wish you good luck. My comments included "the consumption in the source is in BTUs, which would need to be converted to TWhr, a energy measurement instead of a power (energy flux) measurement as noted for the renewable energy sources. So while a graphic of sourced information is not of and by itself WP:OR as long as its scales can be determined, the subject graphic as it stands is incorrect." I also agree with "It includes all the solar energy incident upon the ocean, which if it were all used for human needs - depending how because it is such a completely hypothetical case - would mean that the hydrological cycle would be shut off." So simply find a verifiable source that discusses the potential amount of power that could be collected by the sources you note (or plainly state that the energy is simply that which is striking the earth at any point in time). The freehand boxes do not have any scale, so they are not appropriate. --Skyemoor (talk) 19:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

As I have said before, there is no problem with pointing out that the amount of solar energy reaching the earth (land surface) is sufficient to meet energy needs many times over. No-one editing this article has disputed that fact. We can find good sources that make the point. Let us be guided by how they make the point. Personally, I do not see the point of prioritising the issue of how much land space it would take. The major limiting factors in PV expansion are cost, transmission and storage. Advocates of renewables agree that PV is one part of a strategy alongside wind and wave power, other technologies, and of course energy use reduction strategies. Please do look out the estimated cost of converting to renewable energy and that can be added to the relevant article. Of course it cannot be anything other than an attempt at an estimate. I'm going to take this issue to the OR noticeboard to get more eyes on it. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

No measure of energy consumption of the planet is meaningful without specifying a time span, and at that point you are no longer specifying energy, but power, the rate of consuming energy, which is measured in watts, not Btu, or kWh. My recollection is that 15/86,000 works out to less than 0.02%, and the oceans represent about 70% of the surface of the planet, so a rough comparison shows that it could be possible to use 0.02% of 86,000 without resorting to building any off-shore facilities. Just a hunch. You can check my math. The scale of the boxes doesn't matter as long as you use the same for each, and it is easy to measure them to see that they are reasonably accurate, and as for freehand? The lines look pretty straight to me, not what I would expect for freehand. And no, using 0.02%, or 0.2%, or even 2% does not mean that the hydrological cycle would be shut off. Apteva (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Of course using solar energy that falls on the sea would not shut off the hydrological cycle! We do not have the technology and in any kind of foreseeable future will not have the technology to use more than a miniscule fraction of that energy. The point is that it is meaningless and misleading to suggest that 100% of it is "available" for human use. It isn't. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Then what number is? I don't have a problem with using that number as the amount of sunlight that strikes the Earth, though just as you said, taking it to the next step and saying that much power is available for conversion to electricity is OR. My other points have not been addressed, btw. --Skyemoor (talk) 13:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, no-one said that the concept of "energy available for human use" (exergy) was easy to define, let alone measure. Hence the complex nature of the source diagram which Apteva has misread. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

When I made this edit my intention was to show the gross scale of solar energy flows in the environment. There are many studies that have made estimates of theoretically available vs. technically available solar energy and a simple enough table can be laid out. What are your other points Skyemoor? Mrshaba (talk) 16:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

These data points are consistent (ZJ of energy), and are well sourced. I support the inclusion of this text. --Skyemoor (talk) 19:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Say hey... I hadn't noticed we lost that text. At about the time I decided to move the information from a bulleted format into a table Apteva, god bless him, converted the bullets into sentences but at some point some of the sentences must have dissolved. If I had my druthers I'd lay the info out in a table so you could make a linear comparison. What do you think Skyemoor? Mrshaba (talk) 22:23, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello there. This isn't a private webpage. It isn't appropriate to say, "what do you think Joe?" Address yourself to everyone, please, "what do other people think?" Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, and if you or anyone is not interested in collaborating, I'm sure that there are many other websites that would be more appropriate. Apteva (talk) 05:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) To bring this innocent bystander up to speed, could someone please tell me what exactly the numbers ought to be? That is, what exactly is it that the average reader is supposed to be able to read off of those graphs?
Also, if I understand it correctly, the problem with the image(s) boils down to the (in)appropriateness of a log10 scale (read: the scale/comparison ought to be linear). Am I identifying the issue correctly? -- Fullstop (talk) 16:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Read my first comment above and check out the links for some of the history. This issue does not concern using log10 graphs so much as getting a poor diagram off the page that several of us have been trying to do for over a year. Mrshaba (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Step by step please. A year is an awful lot to expect the incidental observer to catch up on.

• there must be some reason behind trying for a year. If its not so much the use of log10 graphs, then it must be something else. Merely the fact that you have been trying for a year is completely irrelevant to identifying the problems or in finding a solution.
• other than Apteva's own listing of the 4 diagrams above I can't even determine which images you folks are actually talking about.
• from the previous discussion I have gathered that the objections are:
  • the numbers being compared in the graph are not actually comparable
  • for practical reasons the numbers presented by the graph can never be achieved
  • the use of log10 scale & 3D volumes misrepresent the relative value of the numbers
  Are these the reasons why the diagrams are deemed invalid? What other reasons are there?
  (Incidentally, poor artwork is a non-issue. Bad art can be fixed).
• Can these issues be fixed?
  If not,...
  • Do the problems with the images (whatever they are) constitute a disservice to the reader?
  • Is there overwhelming agreement here that the images constitute a disservice to the reader?

Your turn folks. Make the most of it. -- Fullstop (talk) 18:11, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I beg to differ sir. Working on fixing a problem for a year most certainly is relevant. You might also consider that Apteva//199/Delphi234 are all the same guy so there's a sock issue and a COI going on because Delphi234 created one of the images and he's used several identities to reinsert/argue for the image's inclusion. WPs' dispute resolution procedures have so far failed to clear this issue.

Here's an effort at a step-by-step. The first Rfc is a good primer. We came out of the Rfc with a consensus to remove the box diagram. We established that using a three dimensional figure to represent quantities misrepresents the info no matter what the info is. At that time there were also issues raised with the quality of information used to develop the boxes. The box diagram was removed based on the consensus but Apteva/199/Delphi234 continued to reinsert the diagram.

At some point the data in the diagram was readjusted so that it mostly came from a single source document. This transition introduced additional problems. #1: The data used conflicted with well sourced data that was already on the page. #2: The new data described EXERGY rather than ENERGY and then presented the information as power. i.e. This is the source of the OR issue.

Following this the box diagram moved into the lead and this really set me off because the diagram was already known to be objectionable and now it introduced the subject. After going back and forth we (Itsmejudith,Apteva and myself) took the intro picture issue to mediation. The mediation was 'supposed' to settle whether the box diagram was to remain but it didn't.

I hope that's a decent overview. As to your questions: The first image below (Available Energy 2) started things off a year ago and the second image (Available Energy 4) is the most recent version with the additional EXERGY issue.

• 
• 

• I have gathered that the objections are:
  • the numbers being compared in the graph are not actually comparable
  Yes, Theoretically available EXERGY is being compared to actual ENERGY use. A more reasonable comparison would show Theoretically available ENERGY and Technically available ENERGY and compare this to actual ENERGY use. A table or text would be the easiest way to do this and we figured this out a long time ago.

• • the use of log10 scale & 3D volumes misrepresent the relative value of the numbers
  The log10 scale picture has never been used on the page to my knowledge so it hasn't been discussed. As to 3D volumes, the problem is describe in How To Lie With Statistics. When you use a 3D comparison the viewer doesn't adjust for the depth so it's a fundamentally poor way to display information and should be avoided no matter what the information is. Put it this way - If the numbers were not included below the boxes would you have a good clue what the ratio of sizes was between the boxes?

• • Can these issues be fixed?
The box diagram cannot be fixed because the problem is fundamental to the way boxes present information. A basic table showing Theoretically available vs. Technically available Energy seems to good way to lay out the info in my opinion. This would keep most of the information we already have while addressing the "promotion objections" that have been raised.

• Do the problems with the images (whatever they are) constitute a disservice to the reader?

I think so.

I hope that covers everything. Mrshaba (talk) 19:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually it covers nothing. The real objection appears to be a simple desire by Mrshaba to not use the diagram. No objection that has any relevancy has ever been purported by anyone. The diagram on the other hand has wide acceptance and there are even some who rave about it. I am only to conclude that it is that acceptance that is the cause of Mrshaba's desire not to see it used.

I am going to back up and start again. Above are four images in a row, now labeled 1, 2, 3, and 4. The first is not practical because it misleads the reader. 2 was used for about a year, and was even deleted once because someone, not to mention any names, was unable or uninterested in looking up the source for the data, something that was taken care of, and the image was restored. 3 was created in order to address the concerns raised about the fact that the values used to create 2 came from a variety of sources, and geothermal was added. As you can see from the diagram, geothermal can supply a large portion of our energy needs, wind can supply all of our energy needs, and solar can supply virtually an infinite supply of energy by comparison. Only someone who really doesn't want anyone to know this would be opposed to having the diagram included in the article.

Once again, my only question, is which diagram do people prefer for the solar energy article, 2, 3, or 4? Or would anyone like to create an alternate image that can be used? My own preference is 3, because although 4 is much easier to read, it is a little busy and hydro does not need to be included in the solar article. I have no objection to either 2, 3, or 4 being used. I will not, however ever agree to not including some sort of diagram. Oh yes, I will add that 90% of the energy we use today is wasted, so any minor changes to any of the numbers are totally moot. Apteva (talk) 22:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I just had an idea come to me for a graphic that someone could create, anyone who is good with drawing images. Draw a pallet full of 860 gold bars, on a hoist like they use to unload cargo from a ship, and label it 2,712 ZJ/year, Solar, then a tiny pallet with 9 gold bars on a pallet being unloaded, and label it 27 ZJ/year, Wind, and then a tiny sliver of gold, 1/7th of a bar, on a truck, signifying what we actually use, and label it 0.47 ZJ/year, Consumption. It's a pretty accurate depiction of energy availability, we are smothered in sun and wind and only need a small fraction of what is available to meet all of our needs. Apteva (talk) 06:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

None of the graphics above is correct. 1) has no units, 2)3)4) all have a mismatch between power and energy, and are not drawn to scale. The labeling would need to include qualifiers that show that the solar energy shown is the amount of sunlight striking the earth, which is not the same as the amount of sunlight available for conversion to electricity or other human-usable form of energy. Similar situation with wind. I support the insertion of the information that MrShaba previously had posted. --Skyemoor (talk) 10:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't care about #1 because it has obvious other problems (though having no units is not one of them - the units, TW, are at the bottom of the abscissa, or x-axis for people like me who can't tell which is which), and you may have missed my point that we do not consume energy as if we drank a glass of milk one time only, we consume energy at a rate of use, which is not energy but power, the same as the incoming solar radiation, and I really strongly doubt that you have checked to see if they are drawn to scale (I have), but the ratios could be off by a lot and would be close enough anyway (although as mentioned, bad artwork can be fixed). The description and the caption can be whatever is needed to explain that it is the total energy striking the earth, and any other caveats needed - it isn't the diagram that is wrong. And finally, insertion of information that Mrshaba previously posted doesn't require discussion, just do it. I'm sure that someone will correct the manner in which it is inserted if there is any problem with it. However I can assure you that if it is put in as a table it will be replaced with a diagram, because most people have no clue what numbers mean, but everyone can understand a diagram. Apteva (talk) 14:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Lead section

Please comment on the following two proposed lead section:

See Talk:Solar energy/Sandbox

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solar_energy&oldid=243749995

2) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solar_energy&oldid=243775000

Until an agreement has been reached the lead should be reverted to how it existed before the change was proposed,[2] or to [3], either is acceptable.

Comments

The most obvious problems with #1 are that it is only 2 paragraphs instead of the required 3 or 4, it uses the inaccurate phrase "heat and light" (all energy comes to us from the sun in the form of radiant energy (light) - the sun would have to physically contact the earth for us to directly receive heat from the sun), it includes the inappropriate 99% (99.97%) instead of the word "most", and the second paragraph is a choppy list that includes only a subset of the important ways we use solar energy. The best part of #1 was incorporated into #2, retaining the best parts of the current lead section. Apteva (talk) 02:34, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:LP does not require 3 or 4 paragraphs. "Heat" is infra-red radiation, which is the energy of electromagnetic waves, but it is simpler for the average user simply to say "heat" in the lede, and delve deeper into the physics later in the article. Notice there was no mention of heat transfer by conduction, in contrast to your comment above. 99.97% is more specific and accurate than 'most', and is therefore much more desirable in WP in order to avoid WP:WW. The list is an overview, as this is a summary section. If you believe there are important items left off, please add them. I have no doubt that #1 can be improved, but #2 is even more awkward, starting with the first sentence; solar energy exists whether it is utilized or not, simply by heating rocks or ocean water. The second paragraph on building design does not flow well, and seems to have too much information for a summary section. --Skyemoor (talk) 20:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. WP:LEAD#Length states "The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article. As a general guideline, the lead should be no longer than four paragraphs. The following suggestion may be useful: ... > 30,000 characters 3 or 4 paragraphs" Heat is not primarily infra-red radiation. Think of a pot of iron heated to 1,000 degrees. The infra-red radiation it gives off is a small percentage of the heat it contains. The reason for not using a percentage in the lead is the lead is an overall summary, and it isn't the percentage that is important, which is included in the body, it is the concept that is important, that "most" available energy is from solar energy. Remember that numbers mean nothing to most people. I would suggest working on #1 in a sandbox, it has far too many problems to be included. I really don't wish to add to a list of clauses, as sentences are better. The first sentence of the lead has never been something that anyone has been proud of, but "heat and light" is a complete zero. Apteva (talk) 21:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

You can disagree WP:LP does not require 3-4 paragraphs, but you only supplied evidence that says "The following suggestion may be useful". Your comparison of heat from the sun with a the heat contained within a boiling pot has nothing to do with the solar energy that reaches Earth and would be off by many 1000s of orders of magnitude. Working on improving the lede is entirely justifiable; let's do it in a sandbox as you describe and achieve consensus before making changes to the main article. --Skyemoor (talk) 10:38, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The article has to be accessible to readers with a scientific/technical background and those without any such background at all. It will be extensively used for school projects but it should also provide good links for energy professionals. We all know that if we stand in the sunshine we can feel the warmth. The heat "comes from the sun". How do we explain this in the article? We have to say something, but I suggest we do it as quickly as possible and use the fact that we can link to other articles for more detail. We might also want to include some of the science in footnotes rather than in the article. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I categorically reject the 3-4 paragraphs nonsense. The lede should be whatever length makes sense. And in general, shorter ledes are always better if they get the point across. We should never be making a lede longer "just because!"

The "heat and light" thing is more interesting. I disagree that heat is inherently inaccurate, because radiant heat is still called heat by a lot of people. I see your point that you want to distinguish it from conduction or convection, though. My proposal would be to replace "heat and light" with "light and radiant heat". It still rolls off the tongue easily; it is technically correct; and, since casual readers will tend to gloss over the word "radiant", I think it is still clear to the layman. I'm going to be bold and make the change, though I recognize with the recent history of this article I might get quickly reverted ;) Oh well...

The other points will require closer inspection. --Jaysweet (talk) 15:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Jaysweet, I agree with your input. -- Skyemoor (talk) 16:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I am a big fan of semicolons (as, coincidentally, my previous post demonstrates!) but the semicolons in paragraph 2 were not necessary, and arguably not appropriate. None of the individual clauses contained a comma, therefore there was no need to promote the separator from a comma to a semicolon in order to disambiguate clause delineations from subclause delineations. Commas will do just fine.

I share some of Apteva's skepticism about the value of this list to the lede. I might prefer to be more general in the lede, perhaps with something like (just brainstorming here):

Solar energy can be used directly, for example in passive heating systems, or it can be converted to electricity via solar cells and other related technologies.

That sort of gives the flavor without being a tedious list. Comments? --Jaysweet (talk) 15:51, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Would removing the list create a summary that is actually too short? For example, there are quite a few areas and applications that are encompassed, and a short list can provide a quick overview. --Skyemoor (talk) 16:43, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe the semicolons were appropriate but I'm not a blackbelt grammarian so no sweat. Light and radiant heat sounds fine to me. As to the list I think we need it to give the subject an overview. I do not think we should use a description that goes into direct vs indirect territory because passive heating systems may be direct, indirect or isolated and light itself my be direct, diffuse or indirect. Then there's also the idea that secondary solar resources are indirect. Since both the resource and the technologies are described as direct vs indirect I think we should avoid this construction in the summary section because it's not explicit. The list hits most of the technologies without being overly tedious in my opinion. Mrshaba (talk) 16:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I like the list but it needs editing. Vehicles could be in there. It doesn't currently deal well with solar in buildings - all buildings use solar energy in some way, not just those that could be classifed as "passive solar buildings". Buildings with active solar are also usually designed with passive solar in mind. I really liked the "light and radiant heat" formulation. I've tweaked the first para a bit but don't mind if it is changed again. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

All buildings might use solar energy but there has to be purpose in mind before you can classify the building as a solar building. Personally, I think there's enough about buildings with daylighting, water and space heating and photovoltaics. As to Judith's rejig, I preferred the shorter first sentence and I think the first paragraph should be dedicated to solar energy as a resource with the remaining paragraph(s) about the technologies. Vehicles can be added to the second paragraph easily enough or a third paragraph that mentions extended uses such as vehicles, solar fuels or storage also seems doable. Mrshaba (talk) 17:05, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Good, so let's keep the list, and make it readable and somewhat comprehensive in a summarial sense. Please add or reword list items as you see fit. --Skyemoor (talk) 17:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Moved lead to Talk:Solar energy/Sandbox. Please discuss here and make changes there (to the sandbox version). After we come to an agreement, it can be moved to the article lead. I fixed one problem and indicated < > three more that remain. The old version has been there for months and it won't hurt to leave there until we get it fixed. Cheers. Apteva (talk) 02:02, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Changed "through a range of technologies" to "with a variety of technologies" - better grammar. Apteva (talk) 02:21, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The second paragraph in particular is far from FA quality, "Solar energy technologies can provide daylighting etc. etc." is particularly poor. I was going to try to suggest an alternate, but I'll leave that to someone who can come up with something "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard". Apteva (talk) 03:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

As you can see, we have by consensus continued to edit the article. You are welcome to offer suggestions, but do not continue to supplant what we have done with your own version, as that is disruptive and WP:OWN. If you want to make changes to the consensus lede, discuss it here first. --Skyemoor (talk) 09:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

That wasn't done by consensus, that was done by subterfuge - participating in an edit war as a meatpuppet and then getting one party in the edit war blocked so that the other party could do what they wanted. What was it someone said? "let's do it in a sandbox as you describe and achieve consensus before making changes to the main article." Oh my that was you that said that. All I am doing is following through on that excellent suggestion. You, however are the disruptive one. You can't arbitrarily block one person and say oh I guess we have a consensus of one now. And calling that version "your own version" is pathetic. I probably wrote no more than four words of that four months ago, and nothing else. The process when editors can't agree on a new version is you go back to the previous version while it is under discussion. You have my full permission to choose any previous version from the entire month of August or September as the previous version. Apteva (talk) 14:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Apteva, you are not fooling anyone with an adjacent IP from MANCHESTER, MV COMMUNICATIONS INC. You not own this article, and you don't instruct us in which version of your text you want us to use. 3 of us have been editing the lede in a collaborative fashion, and you can either help or find something else to do. --Skyemoor (talk) 15:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Fooling anyone? Fooling anyone? You have got to be joking. The only person who has ever legitimately been accused of thinking that they "WP:OWN" the article is the WP:SPA Mrshaba. Use the sandbox please. Apteva (talk) 15:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

We are successfully editing the article online. If you want to make major changes, do so in the sandbox first, or discuss here. --Skyemoor (talk) 22:03, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Too many changes needed, and too much edit warring. The sandbox is better. However we do need to agree on what version to throw up in the article in the meantime. Any preference? I can tell you ahead of time I won't agree to a version that has a percentage in the lead or does not have solar power in bold text. WE includes ME by the way, and clearly we are not successfully editing the article online. Apteva (talk) 22:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

So stop edit warring and declaring what you insist must be in the article ("I won't agree"). Also, understand the difference between power and energy. 3 of us have been editing online, so don't continue to war against the consensus. --Skyemoor (talk) 00:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually I am only referring to the obvious. And yes I do know that P = dE/dt. Many of these subjects have been discussed at length. If you refer to the archives you will see why the article is about solar power and why most is more appropriate than a percentage. For example, as Itsmejudith stated, there are many school kids who use this article, and putting the percentage in the lead and in the body is redundant, and you can not put it in the lead if it is not in the body. I can't force you to use the sandbox, but your stubbornness to avoid procedure is very troublesome. All I can do is make the necessary edits, and explain the reasons. Right now the lead is twixt and between - it is a half-baked abomination that does not serve the needs of the reader. I can fix it, in one of two ways, I can go back to the September version, or I can go back to the edits I mentioned (Talk:Solar energy/Sandbox#Current), it is your choice. If you do not choose, I will choose the later. Apteva (talk) 03:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed another problem with #Current: It had said "Solar energy is the light and radiant heat from the Sun". That is false. That is a description of the energy from the sun. Solar energy is not the energy from the sun, but the ways that we use the energy from the sun. What do you think of the change to "Solar energy uses the light and radiant heat from the Sun"? Apteva (talk) 04:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I also took the liberty to add "the term", though it is likely the wording could be improved. Apteva (talk) 18:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Is energy only energy if we use it? Is the energy falling on your roof not really energy? Solar Energy doesn't 'use' the light and heat from the sun, though if the context, for purposes of discussion here, is only that energy which is captured, then we would need to say something like "Solar Energy is that energy from the Sun that is captured by means of solar collection", or the like. I'd like to hear how a few other editors think before moving forward with any such change. --Skyemoor (talk) 01:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Please use the sandbox. "influences Earth's climate and weather" is clearly an understatement. Other than location on the planet what is there that determines the climate and the weather other than the sun? And the only reason that location on the planet determines the climate and the weather is because of the effect the location has on the amount of sun received. The point that is intended I believe, is not that the energy from the sun has an effect on the climate and the weather, but that it is the energy from the sun that determines the climate and provides the energy of the weather. That's where the word "drives" came from. Clearly there could be a better word than "drives", but equally clearly not "influences". Apteva (talk) 01:01, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Radiation of heat from the Earth out into space has as much influence on Earth's climate as does the sun. The amount and type of greenhouse gases is critically important (i.e., which is why is Venus hotter than Mercury). The tilt of the planet, it's rotational velocity, and it precession are also important factors. Do you have a more precise term than 'influences'? "Drives" denotes intent, which is not the case with the sun. --Skyemoor (talk) 01:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

To me influences implies a small effect, and is not strong enough. I would use influence if you took the sun away (moved the earth completely out of the solar system) and the climate and weather stayed 90% the same as with the earth in orbit around the sun. Since the earth would quickly drop to way below freezing, "influences" is, in my opinion, not strong enough. "Drives" is not my favorite either, but has been in the article for a long time. I hope that someone can suggest a better word. Apteva (talk) 02:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope you also understand the inappropriateness of saying "more than 99.9%" in the body and "99.97%" in the lead - to most people (many people) numbers mean nothing and can't tell the difference between 9% and 99%, but everyone understands the word most. Apteva (talk) 02:47, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Adding and Removing

After reading through parts of the page today it seems there's some questionable material. I don't really know who contributed the material. The edits have consisted largely of vandalism recently and I don't have the will to go through each edit by edit since August. Here's some material that I think can be removed or truncated.

While comparing ocean water desalination to wastewater reclamation for drinking water shows desalination as the first option, using reclamation for irrigation and industrial use provides multiple benefits.[48] Urban runoff and storm water capture also provide multiple benefits in treating, restoring and recharging groundwater.[49]Solar energy is being used in treating waste water for reuse.

Sunlight enables waste water stabilisation ponds to disinfect wastewaters very effectively without the need for any chemicals or electricity consumption and their associated CO2 emissions. The energy and carbon emission savings gained over electromechanical treatment systems are immense. Furthermore, because algal photosynthesis consumes CO2, WSP can be utilised as CO2 scrubbers, and provide an energy source. [50] [51]

Tests on two solar-driven advanced oxidation processes, namely heterogeneous semiconductor photocatalysis and homogeneous photo-Fenton, both coupled to biological treatment, were carried out in order to identify the environmentally preferable alternative to treat industrial wastewaters containing non-biodegradable priority hazardous substances. The experimental results obtained showed that solar photo-Fenton is able to obtain a biodegradable effluent much faster than solar heterogeneous photocatalysis. [52] Combined solar photo-Fenton / biological treatment is being used or considered for removal of endocrine disrupting chemicals in sewage treatment waste water. [53] for treating industrial effluents [54] including treatment of winery waste water [55] for the bleaching wastewater effluent from a pulp and paper mill [56] tannery wastewater.[57] and textile dyeing wastewater. [58][59] The technology is also being used for the treatment of groundwater contaminated with benzene or petroleum such as at garage sites. [60][61]

The use of PV for extended purposes shouldn't take up too much space on the page. Unique/dominant technologies like remote lighting, water pumping or powering vehicles might deserve mention but PV powered water cleaning isn't particularly interesting to me. I like the bit about decontamination ponds but the picture throws me off. I think this should be compressed into half the space.

The High-altitude airship (HAA) is an unmanned, long-duration, lighter-than-air vehicle using helium gas for lift, and thin-film solar cells for power. The United States Department of Defense Missile Defense Agency has contracted Lockheed Martin to construct it to enhance the Ballistic Missile Defense System (BMDS).[126] Airships have some advantages for solar-powered flight: they do not require power to remain aloft, and an airship's envelope presents a large area to the Sun.

This is a future project. I know Space power is already on the page but the line on future technology needs to be drawn.

Solar installations in recent years have also largely begun to expand into residential areas, with governments offering incentive programs to make "green" energy a more economically viable option. In Canada the government offers the RESOP (Renewable Energy Standard Offer Program).[citation needed] The program allows residential homeowners with solar panel installations to sell the energy they produce back to the grid (i.e., the government) at 41¢/kWh, while drawing power from the grid at an average rate of 20¢/kWh (see feed-in tariff). The program is designed to help promote the government's green agenda and lower the strain often placed on the energy grid at peak hours. With the incentives offered by the program the average payback period for a residential solar installation (sized between 1.3 kW and 5 kW) is estimated at 18 to 23 years, considering such cost factors as parts, installation and maintenance, as well as the average energy production of a system on an annual basis.[citation needed]

Daniel Lincot, the chairman of the 2008 European Photovoltaic Solar Energy Conference and the research director of the Paris-based Photovoltaic Energy Development and Research Institute, said that photovoltaics can cover all the world energy demand [145]. Photovoltaics are 85 times as efficient as growing corn for ethanol. On a 300 feet by 300 feet (1 hectare) plot of land enough ethanol can be produced to drive a car 30,000 miles (48,000 km) per year or 2,500,000 miles (4,020,000 km) by covering the same land with photo cells.

The PPA material is poorly sourced and seems to be misrepresented. I don't like all the subsidy information because everywhere is different as far as subsidies go. I like the example about cars driving but I think it's misplaced in this section. Perhaps a performance section? Anyways, I'm leaving for Tokyo in the morning. Good luck with the page. Mrshaba (talk) 00:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

In general the page is still horrendously long, about 84,000 bytes, instead of the 40,000 that would be acceptable in my opinion. I think a lot can be done by making use of the many subsections that we have. Have fun in Japan. There is no Solar power in Japan article, a glaring omission. Maybe you can find someone who can help create it. I would suggest taking along a print out of the solar power in Germany and in the United States articles as samples. Apteva (talk) 03:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that you deleted the sentence "Solar lights that charge during the day and light up at dusk are a common sight along walkways." This is odd because for most people, that is by far the most common use of solar energy. I would recommend keeping it in. Apteva (talk) 04:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That's a detail that might have an application in the body of the text, but is not appropriate for the lede. --Skyemoor (talk) 11:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That's where it was. I'll put it back. I would have taken it out myself if it had been in the lead. All of this section is only about the body of the article. Apteva (talk) 13:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Re the stuff that Mrshaba mentioned at the beginning of this thread. This was a chunk about waste water treatment added a few weeks ago. There was a question about where it should go in the article. I suggested it should go with the other water treatment (disinfection and desalination). There was no reply so I went ahead and moved it. But it is far too long, for what is not a very developed technology. I'm going to shorten it drastically. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:30, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

"Solar" biomass, hydro and wind

The relationship between solar energy and these other renewables could be more clearly defined in the article, I feel. We should avoid saying "only this is described here". Any suggestions? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I just changed it to "All other renewable energies other than geothermal derive their energy from energy received from the sun.", with no need to add, and we don't talk about them here. Apteva (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Solar power and Solar energy

This has been discussed many times in the past. The article, for years was called Solar power. When people think of solar power they think more of photovoltaics. Both are used interchangeably though, with solar energy slightly more common than solar power. The upcoming solar conference in the United States is called "Solar Power International". Instead of "the term solar power" I would suggest "often used as a synonym for solar energy, but ...". However, we need to be discussing these proposals, not simply reverting everything and anything based solely on the name of the editor making the changes. The lead has been frozen per the version in the sandbox. As I said before, you can go back to the September version if you prefer, but that doesn't mean the whole article, that just means the lead section. Putting a technical definition of power vs. energy anywhere in the article is not needed. The place for that is the two articles energy and power, this article is only about applications of solar energy/solar power. Apteva (talk) 00:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Your perception of "what people think about" on solar power is only a perspective of yours. Can you find a definition of technically correct definition of solar power that conflicts with what I have? Again, and I've repeated this far too often, don't confuse power and energy. Briefly, power is a rate (e.g., kW) and energy is that power over time (e.g., kWhr). A number of editors, including me, have chosen to edit the article since the earlier discussion about using the sandbox, as you were blocked at the time and we could make progress with improvements. You've seen our consensus, so don't continue to make demands about what we must or mustn't do. --Skyemoor (talk) 01:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not making demands. I said please. And I incorporated all of the interim changes in the "current version" in the sandbox. You suggested that using a sandbox would be a good idea, so why are you not using it? You start by saying that "Solar power, often used as a synonym" (for solar energy) and then explain that power is not the same as energy. Which is it, a synonym, or used synonymously? (Used interchangeably) Take a look at the monitor for the 14 MWp Nellis Solar Power Plant (see external links). While it is not explained very well, there are three numbers displayed each day. Right now it says

Peak 11,910.16 kW

Today 67,411.75 kWh

Total 28.83 GWh

As you and I both know, that means that the maximum power put out today was 11.9 MW, and the total energy generated was 67.4 MWh. At least that is how I would interpret it. If in an hour the top number drops then it is mislabeled. Fair to say that since the power plant is labeled a power plant it puts out power, but at the end of the day there has been an accumulation of energy. Both of us have a technical background and understand derivatives and integrals, though neither is needed for an understanding of the difference between solar power and solar energy. For that do a google search and see how each is used, and you will see that they are really used interchangeably. Let me know if you see anyone talking about integrals or derivatives. I don't. Apteva (talk) 01:55, 13 October 2008 (UTC)