Talk:Quackwatch

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Bolen and Quackpotwatch mentioned in the introduction

David D. wrote earlier "If we really go with precedent then Bolen and his website Quackpot watch should be mentioned as a critic in the intro. There are countless examples of this in wikipedia." Since Quackpotwatch is redirected to this article and since Bolen, like it or not, is a prominent critic of QW, this is a sensible suggestion. What is the view on this ? NATTO 03:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Way over the bounds. Bolen is paid to criticize Barrett, by his own declaration. Nothing he says is of value to this article. alteripse 03:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the critics of Quackwatch are amply represented in the article as is. Placing a mention of Bolen and QuackpotWatch in the intro is inappropriate; the best approach is what we have now (mention that there are critics, then give the critics their own section later in the article) - that's in line with Wikipedia precedent on controversial topics. MastCell 04:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that "... not free from criticism and controversy" understates the situation and needs short, maybe subtle, improvement, but am not really that wild about single party entities as "The oppositon" in the intro *verbiage*. I like a more general stmt. Maybe simple references after the improved generalization with 2 sources would be appropriate. Frankly, Bolen wouldn't be my first choice, you really need another broad commentator for such a reference or even another public example of controversy[1].--I'clast 07:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess I think that Quackpotwatch should be a stub article w/o being a platform.--I'clast 08:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think a few references after the "not without critics" sentence makes sense. I don't agree that QuackpotWatch deserves a stub article. I wasn't privy to the AfD debate, but QuackpotWatch seems to be a self-published website by someone with an axe to grind, and would seem to fail most applications of WP:NOTE for its own article. If every controversial topic then included WP pages describing every critical website, things would quickly get out of control. Let's reference it in the intro, cite it under "Critics", and leave it there. MastCell 18:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Without getting into a discussion about whether Quackpotwatch deserves an article or not, it is true that it is a self published website, but so is QW. I agree with User:MastCell that a better and more descriptive wording regarding the criticism of QW is needed in the intro. This is especially relevant since QW itself does not present a balanced , objective view of the modalities and individuals criticised. This is well described in the SB article. Even Forbes has noted the particular ( one sided )health orientation of QW and it's rather harsh tone combined with lack of information to support some of it's listings.... and that is a GOOD review of QW. NATTO 00:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, criticism of QW is amply represented in this article (if not over-represented). I said that I'd support citations to the "not without critics" claim, with footnotes to the appropriate critical sites. The wording is actually not bad, and the criticism is, again, amply represented in the appropriate section; we don't need to start fighting the battle in the intro. MastCell 20:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Apologies if I misunderstood what you meant. Still the intro has to reflect the article and be worded NPOV. It is not about fighting "the battle" but having the intro properly reflect the content of the article and provide an overview of the main points in the article, including a mention of its notable controversies . I have suggested revised wording below for the intro that includes info on all the relevant parts of the article. NATTO 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Revision of the Lead

The important principles to keep in mind here are found in the WP:LEAD guidelines. The lead should be a mini version of the article. All the significant major subjects should be mentioned, but not discussed or examined. The lead should, just like the article, maintain some semblance of balance, without undue weight. It wouldn't hurt at all if it was written with interesting prose designed to wake interest in reading the article.

The lead section should provide a clear and concise introduction to an article's topic, establish context, and characterize the terms. It should contain several paragraphs, depending on the length of the article, and should provide an overview of the main points the article will make, summarizing the primary reasons the subject matter is interesting or notable, and including a mention of its notable controversies, if there are any. The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, should be written in a clear and accessible style, should be carefully sourced like the rest of the text, and should encourage the reader to read more. - Source: WP:LEAD

A simple way to develop the lead (and to keep it up to date as the article develops) is to use the TOC. If subject matter is different enough to deserve a subheading, then it likely should also be represented in the lead.

Here is the current TOC:

1 Mission and scope

2 About the site

3 Notability

4 Criticism

4.1 Other critics

5 References

6 See also

7 External links

7.1 Favorable

7.2 Critical

The last few sections (5-7) obviously don't deserve mention in the lead.

Here is the current lead (without links or code):

Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania [1] whose stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies" and whose claimed "primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere". [2] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., who founded the non-profit in 1969, with input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. [3] The Quackwatch website was started in 1997, [4] and though it has won numerous awards, it is not free from criticism and controversy.

If we follow my suggestions above (I may be wrong, so we can discuss it), then the lead is somewhat poorly written. Some matters are covered in too much depth and would be better moved into the article, and other matters are hardly mentioned, including the criticisms.

What do you think of my suggestions? Is this a good basis on which to revise the lead? -- Fyslee 19:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

More or less agree as an assessment tool for order, coverage, structure; not a slave. Maybe try this as a starting point:

Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization [1] whose stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies" and whose claimed "primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere". [2] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist, who founded the non-profit in 1969. He receives input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. [3] Quackwatch and its website, started in 1997,[4] have won numerous awards. They have also attracted numerous critics and some associates have engaged in a number of related controversies and lawsuits, with mixed results.--I'clast 21:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

(w/o making a rehash, since some are covered extensively elsewhere, I think a brief paragraph before/after Criticism would simply note that notable QW associates, individuals & overlapping organizations, have been involved in legal matters subject related to their QW philosophy, statements, activities.) --I'clast 00:13, 17 October 2006

What about: "Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization established in 1969,[1] whose stated purpose is to combat what it considers health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies and whose primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. [2] Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist, the founder and operator who receives input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. [3] Quackwatch and its website, started in 1997[4] have won numerous awards. They have also attracted numerous critics regarding the balance, quality and reliability of the information and opinions published on the website and some associates have engaged in a number of related controversies and lawsuits, with mixed results. " NATTO 02:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. I think it is important that the new reader understand this site has real issues, and is not a tea time chatsite - it's live ammo, a hot zone with real life implications. This Intro would be a better, more encyclopedic lead, IMHO.--I'clast 07:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This is looking like something I had envisioned. The criticisms section is now much better represented, and some of the information in the start is appropriately shortened. It still needs some work, but it's moving in the right direction. Because the present wording has been in place for quite awhile and was achieved by the consensus of many editors, it is important to preserve certain phrases in their present form as much as possible. If we don't do that, then we end up getting in controversy all over again over the same matters. But all in all a good start. I'll try to come up with a version, incorporating some of the better additions above.

Revised:

Quackwatch is the website of Quackwatch, Inc., whose stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and whose primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. The website is part of a network of related websites dealing with similar subject matter.

Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. The website contains articles written in an easily accessible style for the non-specialist consumer, as well as scientific reports, books, government reports, Frequently Asked Questions, consumer advice and strategies, as well as other forms of information.

Quackwatch has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, but it is also a very controversial website, since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the persons who practice them. This has attracted numerous critics who claim the criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, or misplaced.

Some critics of Quackwatch and Barrett have been involved in libel lawsuits filed by Barrett with mixed results. Barrett himself has never been sued for libel.

How's that look? The mention of the criticisms is substantially increased.

The last two sentences can be sourced, but aren't very relevant here, since Quackwatch has not been involved in lawsuits. NCAHF has been involved in the King Bio lawsuit, and Barrett has filed several libel suits all related to repetitions of the same libel coming from one single source -- Tim Bolen. Therefore those two sentences don't really belong in this article, but in the Barrett article.

Boring information to move into the body of the article:

• started in 1996 and operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization founded in 1969, and incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania

-- Fyslee 21:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the Baldwin article, Barrett has been sued (in a counter suit) for libel. [2] Regardless, the last sentence doesn't really go here for the reasons you stated... Levine2112 00:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The statement that "Barrett himself has never been sued for libel" doesn't belong in this article, but it is true.

Here is the quote from Baldwin:

"Despite Barrett's pattern of naming names of people as well as products, he has never been sued for libel, except for a counter-suit to a libel suit he once filed (the counter-suit was dismissed). His explanation? "I protect myself by not saying anything that isn't true." That doesn't mean that he isn't attacked." [3]

The use of the word "except" makes it confusing if read quickly, but a careful reading makes it more clear.

The cross-complaint was not for libel, and it was voluntarily dismissed when it came time to provide evidence for any one of the many false charges.

Here is the complaint. It never mentions the word "libel" a single time:

• Cross-complaint: New Century Press vs. Barrett, et al

The complaint never went to court. Anyone can charge anyone with anything, but it is first when the court accepts it and tries the case that we can legitimately say that someone has been "sued." Even if this case had been tried, it was not for libel. -- Fyslee 20:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

What about:

"Quackwatch is a website operated by Quackwatch, Inc., whose stated purpose is to combat what it considers " health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies " and whose primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, a retired psychiatrist, the founder and operator who receives input from his board of advisors, and help from numerous volunteers. Quackwatch and its related websites have won numerous awards, but they are also very controversial websites that have attracted numerous critics who claim the comments are unbalanced, unreliable, or misplaced. Some critics of Quackwatch and Barrett have been involved in libel lawsuits filed by Barrett, with mixed results. "

I do not think it is appropriate to repeat in detail what is already explained in the article. NATTO 04:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I like shorter. I prefer a more general form "Some critics and associates of Quackwatch have been involved in legal actions, with mixed results. " as more accurate for the last sentence since associates, editors, (board) members of QW, more than just Barrett, have been involved in *various* legal actions (civil & otherwise), forums & functions (witness) e.g.R Baratz at QW as well as others such as V Herbert.--I'clast 06:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

As noted above, "the last two sentences can be sourced, but aren't very relevant here, since Quackwatch has not been involved in lawsuits." The named Board members of the NCAHF have been involved in some lawsuits, and therefore such mention belongs on the NCAHF article, and not here where it isn't (and shouldn't be) discussed, and therefore shouldn't be mentioned in the lead at all. -- Fyslee 08:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

New revision. I believe this version mentions the major high points, is written in a prose style, and gives better mention to the critics section, unlike the present version:

Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. The website contains many types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim the comments are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.

Information to move:

• started in 1996 and operated by Quackwatch, Inc., an American non-profit organization founded in 1969, and incorporated in the state of Pennsylvania

Please place comments immediately above the References section. -- Fyslee 09:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them,..." Tends to read as "our ratbag critics are conflicted by economics or practice", speculative & diminishing the weight of the critics at least. Simply, "It has attracted..." is more neutral and less speculative. "The website contains many types of information related to consumer advice and strategies." seems somewhat redundant, especially with the 2nd sentence, and a little promo'l.--I'clast 12:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The statement is about as neutral and factual as it can get, since if its mission didn't involve such criticisms, it wouldn't get criticized. That sentence could just as well have been written by any of its critics. I think your sensitivity to the subject makes you read into it something that readers wouldn't. Give them some credit. I understand the feeling and also tend to read things into such statements because I'm sensitive to the subject.

The matter is discussed in depth in the article, and therefore needs to be mentioned briefly in the lead. It also provides the logical (and only) connection between Quackwatch's active criticisms and the responses from those criticized, which is very understandable, isn't it?

It is also necessary to briefly mention the type of content in the lead, because it is also described in depth in the article. Such an omission would be rather odd. I'll try to modify it a bit in both of the places you mention:

• Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. The website contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim those criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.

I think we've come a long way from the minimalistic original -- "it is not free from criticism and controversy." Now the whole thing is written with better prose and flow, including making logical sense. People don't criticize Quackwatch in a vacuum. Quackwatch's actions attract criticism, and that's basically what it says in an NPOV manner. It does this by not implying that the criticisms are unjustified and motivated by attempts to protect cherished nonsensical beliefs, established dubious traditions, and scams (which Quackwatch, Barrett, skeptics, MDs, and mainstream scientists would think). That is not stated, although it could be. I just don't think the lead needs to get into that. -- Fyslee 20:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Uhhhh, Fyslee let me help you with factuality on that last sentence in the long form:

It has has also been characterized as "harsh" (Forbes), unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced (more like JK). Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, many claim those criticisms are unfair, erroneous, wrongheaded, scurrilous, commercially motivated, zealous, and even ...(either beyond good taste or ill advised if applied to individuals)...

This 1st sentence would give sourceable criticism from those that do not fit the practices/economic criteria, and then more accurately address the competitively conflicted positions. I might add some of the 2nd sentence positions could actually qualify for the first sentence, I'm just too lazy to source them right now. Even ardent QW admirers will sometimes describe QW as "provocative" or "partisan". I prefer the previous short form.--I'clast 21:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with I'clast, shorter is better. Also regarding the combating health fraud thing. When it has been proven as a health fraud that it is fine however it is not because QW says it is fraud that it is automatically so. The editors of QW have their legal opinions but , as as been demonstrated by the courts, their legal opinion is not necessarily upheld by the legal system in the USA. For NPOV it should be preceded by a qualifier such as "what it considers". Also the intro should not contain editorial text but simply reflect the main sourced items in the article, in abbreviated form. NATTO 22:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It looks like we are basically in agreement: QW is very controversial, the lead should have NPOV modifiers (which it does), and the criticisms are given much better coverage and recognition. Other significant topics of the article that aren't mentioned at all in the present lead are now also briefly mentioned, and therefore the proposed version above lives up to the requirements for WP:LEAD, IOW it can stand alone as a short summary of the whole article. Other discussion points mentioned above are further developments that would be a part of the article. Any objection to replacing the current lead with the improved version? The current one contains peripherally unimportant facts and neglects major ones. -- Fyslee 09:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Revision of the Lead: continued

As described by Dematt below, the basic division of the process sounds good.

Right now the proposed version has this:

"The website contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies."

Once the article has other significant content that can justify mention in the WP:LEAD, we can add it to the lead, but we should avoid getting into specific details there.

Here's the current proposition:

• Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. The website contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim those criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.

Can we get a decision on this now? -- Fyslee 17:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that was a great choice of words. I would move the sentence to create a slight improvement of the flow:

• Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. The website also contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. While the website has won numerous awards and is quoted favorably in the press and medical journals, it is also a very controversial website. Since part of its mission involves criticisms of various practices and the organizations and persons who practice them, it has attracted numerous critics who claim those criticisms are unbalanced, unreliable, and/or misplaced.

That works for me, but we need Robert's POV on this, as he was the one that proposed it. I agree that we can wait to add to the article before impementing.

--Dematt 18:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What I am hoping for is that the version above can be implemented now. I believe it mentions all the significant topics in the article, and should satisfy the critics, since it is deliberately proposed and worded BY ME to give much greater coverage of the critical section of the article. The current version doesn't do that section justice. (See [4])

When other subjects (as proposed by Robert) are incorporated into the article, they can then be mentioned in the lead. It should be possible to make a decision now, without waiting for more material to be added to the article. -- Fyslee 18:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Your move does improve the flow. Thanks! Is it a fair, accurate, and comprehensive description of the article that can get people interested in reading further? If so, then we should be able to make the substitution. -- Fyslee 18:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, since I am slowly feeling the suction into this article:) I do see that you have added another sentence to the mix from the version that is currently on the page. I see no real problem with the content of the above version, but I think I would make some small changes to the last section:

• Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. The website also contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. The website has won numerous awards and is quoted extensively in the press and medical journals. Critics complain that the site is unbalanced and should be considered unreliable.

This is handles both the good and the bad succinctly and concisely without apology or excuse. I don't see how anyone could not be satisfied with it, and at the same time I don't see how anyone could be satisfied with it, so it must be NPOV;) What do you think? --Dematt 20:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Complain sounds whiny. How about: Some critics feel that the site is...? Levine2112 20:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree, how about taking out some, so... "Critics feel the site is ..." --Dematt 20:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. With those changes, it should look like this:

• Quackwatch is the primary website of Quackwatch, Inc., and is part of a network of websites dealing with related subjects. Its stated purpose is to "combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct," and its primary focus is on what it defines as quackery-related information that it claims is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. The website also contains articles and other types of information related to consumer advice and strategies. Quackwatch is operated by Stephen Barrett, M.D., a retired psychiatrist, with input from his board of advisors and help from numerous volunteers. The website has won numerous awards and is quoted extensively in the press and medical journals. Critics feel the site is unbalanced and should be considered unreliable.

Is that satisfactory to you guys? -- Fyslee 20:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Works for me! Good job. --Dematt 20:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I just feel that the idea that the website contains (general?) health advice should be mentioned here rather than just" consumer advice and strategies". I must say how much I am now enjoying the feeling of working with my fellow editors rather than arguing with you. Actually, it's tremendous. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Robert2957 20:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That's the whole reason I keep writing here. I enjoy working with intelligent people. Even if we don't agree, we can usually work something out with NPOV. There are a few I would rather not work with, but I can see you have real potential to add a new POV to the mix and keep it interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain your POV.

As far as "health advice"; does he give other advice besides health stuff? --Dematt 20:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I just think health advice should be mentioned here as well as "consumer advice and strategies"Robert2957 20:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Now let's work with what needs to go into the article and then we can revisit this sentence once we find out what it is actually going to be about. Fyslee, you could probably save us a lot of time researching, where would you place this? Do you think we should consider creating a new section and make a couple of NPOV statements, or find a spot here? --Dematt 21:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest making a new section at the bottom (above the references) and starting the development there. I'll make it now. -- Fyslee 23:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I can now see how wrong I was just to plunge into editing without prior discussion. I had always just plunged in before now, but all my previous edits had just been small pieces of factual information which woud arouse no controversy. It is late here in the UK, so I'm off to bed. Robert2957 21:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Robert, it's a pleasure to work with editors of all persuasions, when we share common goals (writing an encyclopedia that covers all sides of an issue or subject), assume good faith, and treat each other with respect. I am not perfect in this matter and have failed many times. My bad. One learns with time here, and this is a process that develops character.

I understand your wish to include the "health advice" subject. If we have covered the subject in some depth in the article (more than just a single mention), then it can be included now, but I don't think we have as yet. That time will come, so just be patient and start working on developing that content. Then we can mention it in the lead.

When developing that content, we must keep in mind that such advice is only tangential to the organization's (and website's) main purpose -- dealing with quackery and healthfraud. It is only a tree in the big forest. It is in the nature of things that Quackwatch cannot point out the "counterfeit" without mentioning the "real thing." The site also has the usual disclaimers which sites that focus on health information have, sites that promote all kinds of quackery and weird ideas. (In their case the forest is wrong, with some trees being right.)

More info: It also qualifies for Health On the Net Foundation (HONcode) membership, something many of those sites don't do, or they violate its principles if they have received it. It is also affiliated with the Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database, and has endorsed it. Here's an interesting search [5].

Now it's late here in Denmark, but it's also Friday night and I'm a night owl.....;-) -- Fyslee 21:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

May I make the substitution now? We seem to be agreed on the new version. -- Fyslee 21:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you can go ahead and put the new synthesis in while keeping in mind that we might want to make minor changes to accomodate Robert's contention.

Along that line, if Quackwatch does give some health advice, that is not a bad thing. Nor would it be bad if he gave advice about lawn mowers, etc.. It would just be another feature of the web site. Now, if he said "all people who give health advice are bad" and then he gave health advice, that would be a notable contradiction. --Dematt 21:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Levine2112 22:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you gentlemen. Future refinements will of course be necessary, but for now I think this will be an improvement. -- Fyslee 22:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Robert2957 08:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

May I point out these facts?

I would like to get certain facts onto the Wikipedia site either on the Stephen Barrett page or on the Quackwatch page. My attempts to do so so far have met with objections from other editors. The entries I would now like to put onto the Quackwatch page are :

• Quackwatch advocates the use of folic acid to lower homocysteine levels to protect against heart disease. [6] The recent NORVIT trial[7], however, suggests that this may not be a good idea.

• Quackwatch includes the Journal of Naturopathic Medicine on his list of nonrecommended periodicals [8] but quotes a study in that journal in a jointly authored piece [9] about the Gerson therapy which he criticises.

• Quackwatch contains an article dated 1999 by Varro E Tyler "False Tenets Of Paraherbalism" [10] in which is stated: " However, no substantial evidence that ginseng enhances sexual experience or potency has been published in the scientific literature. " However, Hong and others published:" A double-blind crossover study evaluating the efficacy of korean red ginseng in patients with erectile dysfunction: a preliminary report." J Urol. 2002 Nov;168(5):2070-3. which concluded that ginseng could help with erectile dysfunction.

[11]

Editors have removed the first two of these contributions (I haven't chanced my arm with the third) on two principal grounds. Most of the details can be found here and here

One is that the issues I raise are too minute and that I am attempting to hold Quackwatch up to standards it doesn't claim to maintain. I say that most people consultng Wikipedia about Quackwatch will be wanting to decide whether they should accept Quackwatch as being as authoritative as Medline or the Mayo Clinic. And the facts I point out are relevant to deciding this issue. Quackwatch's mission statement says in part: :"Its primary focus is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere." This is claiming very high authority and status. QUACKWATCH offers advice in all the following areas: Antioxidants and other Phytochemicals: Current Scientific Perspective Cardiovascular Disease Risk Factors Homocysteine: A Risk Factor Worth Considering Dietary Guidelines for Americans Dietary Guidelines for Infants Dietary Reference Intakes: New Guidelines for Calcium and Related Nutrients Dietary Supplements: Appropriate Use Exercise Choosing and Using Equipment Guidelines (to be posted) Fluoridation: Don't Let the Poisonmongers Scare You! (4 articles) Hormone-Replacement Therapy Immunization: Common Misconceptions Low-Fat Eating: Practical Tips Tobacco-Related News Vegetarianism: Healthful But Not Necessary Weight-Control Guidelines

The other main objection has been that I am here guilty of presenting Original Research. I am not. According to the official policy:" Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research. "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."

All I am trying to do is to present sourced referenced and verifiable facts.

Before anyone comments, I would wish to make certain things clear:

I do not question the good faith either of the Quackwatch website or of Dr. Stephen Barrett. I have no time for most of the people Dr. Stephen Barrett criticises. I would always take into account what Quackwatch says when deciding whether to take any alternative medicine myself, though I wouldn't necessarily always go long with it. So, what do people think ? Robert2957 07:35, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so you have one 2002 "preliminary report" regarding one particular ginseng product and "erectile dysfunction." That's nice, and might be appropriate in a ginseng and sexual dysfunction article (there probably are both here). Is there more conclusive evidence than that? (Not that it's relevant here, but just curious.)

Just to bring you a little more up to date (2004) on the Quackwatch/NCAHF coverage of the Ginseng/sexual enhancement issue. Here's the newest comment I could find:

• "Ginseng may help some men with erectile dysfunction, but only in large amounts of a specially processed form of the herb not usually found in these supplements." (2004) [12]

I hope that sheds some light on the situation. If you take a look at the website search, you'll quickly notice that the coverage of ginseng is secondary to the mission purpose, which is to expose exaggerated claims for many products, which in this case also happen to contain ginseng among many other substances. This is the stuff we get in our mailboxes every day. It's called spam. -- Fyslee 14:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Quackwatch and folic acid advice

I agree with both Robert and Fyslee. I think Robert is addressing another feature of quackwatch that is perhaps notable; that it gives dietary advice as well, but the specific statement related to heart may not be appropriate for the lead. However, maybe something can be worked in. This is the way it was last written;

• "It also offers advice on a range of health including how to consult your doctor and makes available some of Dr. Stephen Barrett's opinions related to dietary supplements to protect against heart disease."

I haven't looked into Quackwatch much so I don't know whether this is true, but maybe a less specific sentence is all that is needed in the lead, like;

• "It also offers advice on health related issues."

Then, later in the article, Robert could include his more specific information in a NPOV manner.

It's a start, any help? --Dematt 16:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The basic division of the process sounds good. Actually this subject should be continued above right here, where such phrases describing content can be considered.

Right now the proposed version has this.... naw, read it above.....;-) Fyslee 17:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Bolen

Based on this edit by Fyslee (which I believe to a good one), I think we should take a look at the entire Bolen paragraph. As Fyslee said, this is not an article about Bolen (or Quackpotwatch) and yet all that is in this paragraph is Barrett's and Bolen's description of who Bolen is and what he does. It would be better to give Bolen's criticism of Quackwatch (not Barrett) here. However, do recognize that the idea when "Quackpotwatch" article was deleted from Wikipedia for non-notability was to merge some of it into the "Quackwatch" article. So I feel it would be better to roughly say that according to Quackpotwatch, a critical website written by Tim Bolen, <insert QPW's criticism here>... Sound all right? Levine2112 17:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I just made the update myself. Given the pending lawsuits and controversy, I made it a point to leave out the personal attacks from either side (Bolen or Barrett) and kept it limited to Bolen's characterization of Quackwatch... the topic at hand. Levine2112 19:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Multiple Articles, same info

Can the information relating to Stephen Barrett be included at Stephen Barrett or here rather than both? This is in particular to critisms that directly apply to Barrett rather than to Quackwatch. Shot info 02:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This point was somewhat addressed in the RfC on 1, 2 or 3 related articles. A decision to retain three articles is intrinsically a decision to have three stand-alone articles with somewhat varied detail focused on the specific article but substantial intrinsic overlap. Good thing electons aren't heavy.--I'clast 10:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Forgive my ignorance "RfC"? Also it isn't the electrons are the problem, but the "problem" of having three articles with potentially different information because editors forget, which is makes for rather sloppy work (IHMO). Shot info 07:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment, or here, a merge proposal in late September.

Still doesn't really answer my question, nor cover the repairs of of bad editorial work and not to mention potential for WP:POVFORK. I suppose the Stones state it though "Time, is on our side...yes it is" :-). I'll leave as is. Shot info 22:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

My edits on Criticisms

The people QW complain about obviously will not take kindly to it, right? In order to keep a NPOV, I can't just say that these are just flames, point out the logical fallacies or errors in each, etc. It already gave enough context for many of them to see what the criticism was and what the critic's tone is. I expanded a couple to match, and made sure that it was stated that each critic was responding to a subject exposed on QW. Summarizing the complaints at the top without judging it maintains NPOV. I'm worried that the quoted content is itself not NPOV, but by showing where it's coming from it portrays the issue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Długosz (talk • contribs) 23:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Ref for Tim Bolen's Quackpotwatch ?

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/ says, "The "quackbuster" (his term for quackwatch) operation is a conspiracy." right at the top of the main page.

Someone deleted the clause summarizing Bolen's position claiming it's not supported by the references. But the link to that is earlier in the same sentence. If someone could clarify the reference, please lets discuss the best way to do this.

Another one on this page was more interesting, and brings up a question. Basically, A criticized B for endorsing C who criticized D for saying X. I added the X. Does that need a reference on an article on B? Does each link in the chain need its own reference?? I thought that a citation for C->D is sufficient. Also, see the main article on D for more info is implied by making D a link.

Suggestions?

—Długosz December 21, 2006

I think this points up the major problem with this page, which is that the "Criticism" section is way out of proportion, perhaps not surprisingly since the majority of involved editors on this page are anti-Quackwatch. There's way too much in the way of lengthy quotes from non-notable anti-Quackwatch types - notice that the "source" for nearly all of this criticism is typically the critic's personal website. I'd prefer to limit criticism to that which comes from reliable sources, or at the very least is not self-published. I mean, by the standards of this page, I could put up a website with a few initials after my name, claim Quackwatch is bogus, and be included as a "critic" and given a huge, disproportionate amount of airtime. There is legitimate criticism of Quackwatch worthy of inclusion, but it's hidden among all of these non-notable, self-published screeds. Further, there's absolutely no reason to go beyond "A criticized B [for C]" in your above schematic. Discussing Wilk vs. AMA is really inappropriate for an article on Quackwatch. This isn't a referendum on alternative medicine. It's a supposedly neutral, encyclopedic article about a Website. MastCell 19:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

When dealing with Bolen we run into a problem that has been addressed here at Wikipedia so severely as to get his article deleted (in spite of my objections) and his website considered so unreliable as to be unworthy of use in any situation here at Wikipedia. It simply fails all Wikipedia rules for websites used as sources or External links. The only exception allowed by the rules here is in an article about himself, if it existed. We have made exceptions in the cases where the link is to a court document not found elsewhere. The rest of his site is totally unsourced speculation and conspiracy theories stated as concrete fact, yet which he has admitted under deposition were "euphemism". -- Fyslee 19:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The criticism of this highly critical website is limited to less than half of this article. Proportionality is on a per article basis. Let's not forget that Quackwatch is highly critical, and backlash to their criticism can only be expected and is entirely notable and relevant to this article. We must represent all notable POV on this subject. I agree about Wilk. I quashed that whole section. It only seemed tangenetially relevant to this article. I agree that Bolen is not the best source, but his opinion of Quackwatch is highly notable and very public. So long as his "euphemisms" are pointed out as such and his statements are denoted as claims though, there shouldn't be much argument about leaving his criticisms here. Levine2112 19:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree we need to represent all notable POV's, and I'm not arguing that we should remove the section on "Criticism" of Quackwatch. The question is really how notable many of these critical sources are. It's appopriate to mention that there are numerous critics, with footnotes to the relevant self-published websites, but the inclusion of significant excerpts of criticism in the body of the article itself should have a higher standard - one which, presently, only Kauffman, Chowka, and Goldberg meet. MastCell 20:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I would add Cranton and Sahelian to taht list as well. They are both MDs. Cranton is a Harvard Medical grad, has served as Cheif of Staff at U.S. Public Health hospital, and served as the editor-in-chief in a number of medical journals. Sahleian, unlike Barrett, is a board certified physician, has appeared on NBC Today, NBC Nightly News, CBS This Morning, Dateline NBC, and CNN, quoted in Newsweek, Modern Maturity, Health, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, and Le Monde, and has sold over a million books translated into a number of languages globally. These aren't small-timers and their criticism of Quackwatch should not be discounted. This leaves only Bolen, who - while I agree is not a great source - is notable for his highly public grievances with Quackwatch... he runs "QuackWatchWatch" after all. I certainly think that Bolen's statements should be qualified enough so that the reader knows that they are dealing with pure opinion. Levine2112 20:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that the issue isn't so much Cranton/Sahelian's MD degrees or board certification, or even how many shows have interviewed Sahelian. The issue is reliable sources, and both of their criticisms appear to be sourced to their own self-published websites. My feeling is that we should have some standards for which criticisms quoted at length in the body of the article. Right now, if I were to start a website listing my degrees and credentials and criticizing Quackwatch, I'd apparently meet the bar for inclusion in the body of the article - and that seems wrong. But these are my 2 cents; if no one else agrees, I can accept consensus. MastCell 21:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Using that reason, we could say that techically most of Quackwatch is self-published by Barrett and thus not usable. I think it is one thing if it is a personal site and another thing if it is a professional site. I would argue that Cranton's and Sahelian's (and even Barrett's) are of the latter kind. Levine2112 23:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I support Sahelian and Cranton as professionally, conventionally well qualified, with remarks that illuminate both the subject and the different perspectives from other, notable impacted groups that claim biologically based therapies. We should only replace them with material that improves the perspective or slot for similar space. Bolen is of course loudest, and presented in such short form, perhaps more of an image asset for QW, but he is notable.--I'clast 03:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Is the article about Barrett or Quackwatch?

1. Ray Sahelian B.Sc (nutrition), M.D. and Board certified in Family Medicine, is the author of health related books, including Natural Sex Boosters, an expert in nutrition and a proponent of supplements, [33] asks: "Why has Stephen Barrett, M.D. focused most of his attention on the nutritional industry and has hardly spent time pointing out the billions of dollars wasted each year by consumers on certain prescription and non-prescription pharmaceutical drugs?"
2. Peter Barry Chowka, journalist and a former adviser to the National Institutes of Health's Office of Alternative Medicine, has said that Barrett "seems to be putting down trying to be objective."
3. Timothy Patrick ( Tim ) Bolen is the webmaster of Quackpot Watch, a website that challenges Barrett's views on Alternative Medicine. Shot info 05:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some answers: Articles about Barrett and Quackwatch are largely the same because essentially Quackwatch is a one-man operation, and that man is Barrett. Barrett focuses attention on fraudulent aspects of alternative medicine instead of problems in the pharmaceutical industry because lots of others (e.g., Marcia Angell, Sidney Wolfe) are focusing attention on the pharmaceutical industry, and no one else is willing to be publicly critical of fraud in the alternative medicine and "nutraceutical" industries. Barrett does not seem to the rest of the world to be "putting down being objective"-- just to those whose scams or unsupportable claims he punctures. Bolen is the paid mouthpiece of one of the worst frauds in the alt med business-- to most of us, his slanderous opinions aren't worth 2 cents and I expect he will change them tomorrow if someone employs him to attack someone else. Putting his opinions in this article is like putting a paid political attack ad into an article about a politician as if it were completely reliable and unbiased information. alteripse 05:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Barrett does not seem to the rest of the world to be "putting down being objective"-- just to those whose scams or unsupportable claims he punctures. Pure pov opinion, if not insulting. We've presented independent references that clearly show limitations to Barrett's objectivity as well as "factuality, fairness and scientific currency". "..doesn't seem to...world" indicates a great need to fill an information vacuum for such a less well-informed part of the world.--I'clast 07:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ad hominem Criticism

Most of the criticism listed is just ad hominems, so do we really need five or six quotes saying basically the same thing? Also, is there any substantive criticism? That is, something that disagrees with some argument or fact put forward on the site and says *why* its wrong instead of just saying that they disagree? --Havermayer 16:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Kauffman is quite analytical, Goldberg offers a counterview and an observation; Sahelian questions QW/SB proportionality, bias & notes his perception of QW attitudinal bias; Cranton perceives QW bias toward the "existing medical monopoly" and directly challenges QW's accuracy toward his area; Chowka questions SB(QW) objectivity and give PBC's descriptive view. These views represent views of some substantially knowledgeable & credentialed participants in conventional science & medicine, as well as altmed, that speak for the concerns of many others that observe problems and disagree. That's neither ad hom nor "most".--I'clast 11:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

That's it though. All that the criticism in the article is that QW is biased. That is is still an ad hominem, since QW could be incredibly biased yet 100% correct (ie being biased isn't the same as being wrong). So its really just a red herring. You only really need a sentence or two to summarize the view that certain people think that the site is biased. The type of criticism that needs to be there is "Quackwatch makes claim X, claim X is wrong because reasons A, B, and C". In other words, substantive criticism that actually means something. --Havermayer 02:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a 100+ page proposal for the article. Kauffman (MIT, PhD & prof emeritus) spends 37 pages on just 8 QW articles doing exactly that. A partial discussion, discussing gross errors & bias on Vitamin C (& E) analyses for respiratory illness alone, an internationally recognized, conventional researcher ("authority") takes 143 pages for reviewing mainstream tests and bungled analyses under 6 grams per day orally (interesting doses are reported as ~ 30 grams - 300 grams/days, orally or IV). I don't recommend or suggest such an article length because almost no one will read it - you apparently haven't read Kauffman, the skeptic's 37 page paper.---I'clast 21:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Once we decide to make this article encyclopedic, then yes we should summarize it all into a sentence or two. --Ronz 17:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Havermayer, I agree, though I didn't express it as well as you just did. The problem is, how can you say something like that in the article and still be NPOV? My solution was to make it clear that every criticism listed was noted as being from someone who would naturally take exception to what was advanced by the site. I couldn't figure out how to work in that those arguments are various logical fallacies. Perhaps you can give a try at improving the paragraph introducing the criticisms? The only thing resembling a reasoned argument is in the previous section (and it has the very features he's complaining about, ironically). —Długosz 02:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you read & analyze the Kauffman paper and email him (he gives his email address and sounds like a skeptic that would give a brief answer or more if one doesn't waste his time.)--I'clast 21:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'clast, I was only referring to the criticism in the article. In the article, the ad hominem criticism are excessive. An ad hominem fallacy does not have to be "Steven Barret is an idiot!". Its simply whenever one criticizes the one making the claim in some way, while ignoring the claim itself. What I propose is that this is removed, and in its place, reference to specific counter claims (like you made reference to) are put in. Any criticism of those counter claims could then be made reference to as well. --Havermayer 19:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The primary weakness that I can see is with Bolen's treatment. Bolen is notable for his outspoken pervasiveness, volume, collation of (partisan) criticism, and political counterattack on QW/SB/NCAHF based on civil rights, NOT his being an independent technical or professional perspective as possibly might be assumed in a vacuum reading this article.

Professionally /technically qualified critics that may be said to be roughly representative of whole market segments of Barrett's targets or impacted population *need* summarization or indicative notes. Selected critics certainly have a place (e.g. Sahelian as a natural medicine version MD commenting) and, they or better, should have a voice in this article. Barrett has issued numerous attacks and challenges on whole professions and health market segments, these critics' paragraphs contain brief challenges, reflections on, and assessments of Barrett's validity from other perspectives. Limited references to independent rebuttals (non-QW/SB) & reviews of his critics as discrete, non interefering hyperlinks certainly are a thought. Otherwise, without very brief critics' indicative perspectives, this article just says, "Steve is Right"^{TM, and becomes uninformative & hagiographic. As for just using the lengthy references alone, forget it - even many erudite editors here show little sign of having, or inclination to, read them in part, much less at length.--I'clast 07:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)}

Of course something to consider is that Kauffman was able to draw on his position of PhD & Prof Emeritus (etc. etc.) and how he is held in high esteem (etc. etc.) to only publish his analysis in what really is a fringe journal held in relatively low regard (regardless of CSI's listing on their links) by the scientific community. Of course if Kauffman was perhaps held in higher regard, or rather his opinion was better considered, then his debunking of his detractors would be eagerly sought after. The fact that Kauffman was not able to feel that he could publish his report in the presence of his peers is damning. Shot info 10:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Kauffman's criticism clearly is "not suitable" for the well-rewarded journals of Madison Avenue. Yes, it's damning and we are damned. Such a shot at Kauffman misses, it's whether you can publish in the presence of the advertisers. In case you missed them, a few samples of why this is so: [13][14][15][16][17][18].--I'clast 22:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is more a sample of bait and switch. Try answering the question(s) and discussion point(s). Shot info 23:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's straight answer focused on the non peer problems of publication, also WP:AGF. You seem to be wholly ignorant of how money flows and corrupts the media and the medical industry in America. Also for topical treatment would JAMA, NEJM even want to carry a specific dissection of controversial retirees? Probably not. Science, Nature? No.--I'clast 23:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think you will find that I am more aware of this perception of corruption that what you are saying (and you even had the gall to through in a AGF as well *LOL*). But I am of the inclination that it isn't as bad as what the conspiracy theorists would like us all to believe. Of course, I don't live in the US at the moment, so I have the advantage of realising that the world isn't the US and conspiracy theories tend to break down when you involve more people than the entire US government :-). Occams Razor is a suitable starting point. I must admit though, that your particular conspiracy theory only as two "industries", media and medical. Come on, you can shove a few more in there :-) Shot info 00:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I would venture to say that a website called Quack Watch, which labels a slew of people as "Quacks" most of the time without explanation should expect the same sort of ad hominem treatment sent back their way. You reap what you sew, you know. Anyhow, that's why I think that the criticisms listed on this article are well within reason (and mostly justified). Saying that the site suffers from confirmation bias or limits it scope to alternative therapies is hardly as ad hominem as calling a person a quack. Levine2112 18:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

And I would venture to agree with you. However the article is about QW, and the creditability of the critics that editors of WP are adding to WP. Dredging up all sorts of information that resides in obscure journals and from dubious sources just smacks of desperation to find something...just something to agree with your POV (ie/ "You reap what you sow"). The fact is, when journal authors know that their paper is bound to be rejected by their peers, they seek out organisations that are less vigilante. The fact that Kauffman with his lettered credentials is desperate enough to have his paper published in a journal with a low threshold of review (and scientific acceptability) is enough to scream that it is not worth the paper it is written on. But "You reap what you sow". When you only sow in obscure journals and wikipedia it seems. Remember, people are defending Kauffman's opinion here in this talk page, I'm pointing out that even Kauffman is not confident in his own paper by publishing through the SSE. If he was held in the regard by his peers as editors of WP seem to regard him, then there are lots of other journals it could have been published though. I like the weasel words used to jusify the JSE though... Shot info 22:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree Shot, they seek...less vigilante[19] journals--I'clast 23:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

You should be aware that just because the subject of the article does something, we as editors don't have to do the same Shot info 23:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

That is a strawman argument. We can't pretend to know what Kauffman's rationale was for choosing a journal for his paper's publication. I would think that the one that he chose (or which chose him, for all we know) is quite appropriate for the subject matter. Have you considered that his analysis might have been published else where as well? The truth is, we don't know. That you feel that the editor who included this did so as an act of despeartion is just your opinion. But know this: if you want to find criticism for Quackwatch, it isn't very hard to find. I am not defending Kauffman's research, just the right to have it displayed as a valid criticism of Quackwatch. Levine2112 22:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually it isn't a strawman, it is valid for the purposes of the discussions in this section of the talk page principally about Kauffman's publication (and it's validity to WP). If criticism isn't hard to find, then why is Kauffmans the most prominent in terms of the article? Putting dubiously sourced material is in itself dubious don't you think? Have you considered how scientific publications actually work? Normally republication in other journals is a no-no (happens, but organisations are quick to hang onto their claim to fame). So your comment there is a strawman in itself. Also my comment about editors sourcing dubious “information” is valid and a common source of angst throughout wikipedia. The fact that editor(s) need to provide such dubious sources, as opposed to you saying “it isn’t hard to find” gives the impression that these dubious sources are better for the point they are attempting to articulate. Which leads to other editors saying “why” (hence this topic in this talkpage, your blanket dismissal is odd...). And I think my POV of wanting to improve sources is a little bit more in the spirit of wikipedia that “you reap what you sow"... Shot info 22:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It is your POV that it is a "dubious" publication and you still have no idea why Kauffman chose (or if the journal chose) to publish his research there. Claiming that he had no other choice or that he couldn't get it published elsewhere is a strawman argument. I agree that we should add more sources of criticism from equal or better sources. That isn't what we are discussing here. And "you reap what you sow" was directed at the kind of criticism Quackwatch has gotten. In my POV (and other people's as well), Quackwatch is a very "dubious" source of information. You can't argue that they slap the "quack" label on people and organizations without explaining why and that their critical articles are wrought with confirmation bias. Bottomline, Kauffman provides a very valid criticism that meets WP:V and WP:RS. Levine2112 23:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually it is more correct to say that the SSE are a fringe organisation, after all this is what the general scientific community regards them as. So if this is POV, then it is POV. Personally I think it is NPOV, as it states what they are. And as I have repeatedly stated, QW deserves a criticism section. However you seem to insist that the criticism sections of QW (and Barrett-land in general) makes up a significant proportion of the article. This is the point I continuously articulate. Criticism is valid and pertinent, but not at the expense of the overall article. Dubious criticism, or criticism for the sake of criticism needs to be improved. The fact is, with criticism that are in the article it makes QW a better source that what your "reap what you sow" approach ends up with (ie/ QW seem to be winning the “I’ve been published in better journals” battle). Now Kauffman's article does NOT meet the overall spirit of WP:RS, WP wants , Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world and The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals. The fact that the SSE is regarded as "fringe" by the scientific community affects all of us in WP, because WP doesn't want to be fringe and articulates itself as such. The real bottom line is, let’s get better criticism. After all, it is everywhere out there... Shot info 23:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Kauffman's work and SSE, well identified, stand on their own merits, respectively. You are welcome to add better criticisms, of course.--I'clast 23:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I had an editing conflict, but I'clast, you took the words out of mouth. Thanks. And Shot, with all due respect, your argument above about Kauffman being resigned to publish in JSE despite his Phd, etc... remains a strawman. Will you concede that? Levine2112 23:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I had the same conflict and my PC trashed my response :-(

1. Levine, just because you think it's a strawman, doesn't make it so. Have explained why and I'm not interested in why you need me to aquiase to it?
2. Again I have pointed out why it isn't a RS. Now, what I suggest is that rather than leading the critism section, a intro for critism is made, and the overly long Kauffman article is added with the "other critism" section and the "other critism" lable is removed making it all critism. Of course, I can discuss this here with you both as I did above, or I can just make the changes as you both seem not interested in discussing...Shot info 00:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a strawman argument, but if you are not willing to concede that, so be it. I can move on. JSE meets WP:RS and WP:V and so does Joel Kauffman PhD. I really like the way the criticism section is put together now, but that being said, there is always room for improvement. If you find better criticism from sources which you deem to be more reliable please feel entirely welcome to add it and/or discuss it here with me. I am not at as stubborn as you are making me out to be above. Levine2112 00:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Sighh strawman for others reviewing this later to make up their own mind. I do think you are stubborn inasmuch as you are quick to slap a lable on something (strawman anybody) without actually responding to the pertinent question, which was (going back lots of words) "The fact that Kauffman was not able to feel that he could publish his report in the presence of his peers is damning" (ie/ damning of Kauffman's article). I'clast dismissed this outright (then launched into conspiracy theories which in my mind dissmissing him/her from any input) while you believe it is RS and V. V, I agree with RS, no. However I am not going to delete, but I intend to modify and remove the unnecessary weasel words and it's prominance in the critism section (ie/ why is Kauffman's so prominant????) Shot info 00:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

And right there is your strawman argument. You say: The fact that Kauffman was not able to feel that he could publish his report in the presence of his peers is damning" (ie/ damning of Kauffman's article). How do you know how Kauffman was feeling? You are making a version of Kauffman who felt he couldn't present his report to his peers and then attacking that version of Kauffman. That is precisely example of what a strawman argument is. For all we know, Kauffman regards JSE highly and was very happy indeed to be published there. Perhaps his sister is sleeping with someone at JSE and called in a favor. WE DON'T KNOW! So don't create a fictional reality which you can attack. Levine2112 02:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Kauffman's analyses include the most detailed and highly referenced specific criticisms presented so far.--I'clast 00:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

And have you completely cross referenced it yourself. Or are you relying in good faith that the author is accurate? Shot info 00:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You are inviting my OR?!? Shot, you are free to add a reference footnote that meets WP:V, RS, BLP about Kauffman or his article.--I'clast 00:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Shot, until this very article, SSE was a recommended skeptic organization listed with Barrett's own CSICOP, as shown earlier here. This dialogue reminds me of a humorous movie that many saw:

Fletcher: Your honor, I object!

Judge:Why? Fletcher: Because it's devastating to my case!

Judge: Overruled. Fletcher: Good call! -I'clast 00:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Now you are really clutching at a straws. It is buried on the CSI's link page under a heading. So what? Since when does this make the SSE less of a fringe organisation to the general scientific community? Levine should have something to say about that... :-) Shot info 00:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Your responses seem in denial as well as dismissive. Conspiracy theories? Nah, unfortunately common commercial consideration(s).--I'clast 00:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Pot, kettle, black. Shot info 00:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Shot, real scientific assessment examines the evidence and the logic, not the quality of the paper that it is printed on. Old brand names are often for expensive reassurance of the fearful, less discerning masses, that frequently are disappointed when the management changes...The subject here is not me or thee.--I'clast 01:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

What my problem is, when you have finished with the grandstanding, is that you and I (and everybody else) have no way of accurately assuming the content of any paper, unless we reduplicate it's results (or analysis in the case of Kauffman). We take it on good faith that the author(s) are being accurate. However when an author publishes a paper through less well recognized organisations, assuming good faith becomes harder. This is why I don't think that Kauffman's criticism’s should be given the prominence that it has (remember, I'm not interested in Kauffman at all, I'm interested in improving this QW article). I can assume bad faith about Kauffman, in fact I am forced to because I don't have the time to fully investigate his analysis, because he has not published his information in a truly reliable journal (of course, none are “truly” reliable but clearly some are “better” than others). Since he is very well credentialed, normally one can argue "Well he's a PhD etc. etc." but unfortunately we have at the same time "Barrett is an MD but..." etc. etc (ie/ does my PhD beat your MD??). So we only have the quality of where the information is sourced from. And SSE is circumspect (which is why I suspect the weasel words after JSE have been placed there). To reiterate (again), I'm not interested in removing the criticism but you have to give me my due, I have been campaigning long and hard to make the articles about the subject, not about people who the subject upset, and yes, critism is valid but it is not an article about the critism of the subject, it is about the subject. Shot info 01:16, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a skeptic's article in a skeptic journal about the skeptical shortcomings of other putative skeptics' works. You expect NEJM, Time or WSJ?? Kauffman's analyses are about QW's very essence, 8 of its dated, widely believed, sometimes not-so-accurate polemics.--I'clast 01:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Now who is being dismissive? Kauffman's analyses are published in an obscure, dubious journal. Hence without cross checking his analysis, it is nigh impossible to say that he is correct. It is minimally peer reviewed (if at all) and because of JSE's very obscurity chances are it will never be formally reviewed. So, is it accurate? Who knows? We certainly don't. Enough has been Talkpaged, will play with some sandboxing and make the changes. Shot info 01:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you actually read Kauffman's paper?--I'clast 01:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

NCAHF / Quackwatch Operations

Happiest of Holidays All.

After coming back to Wikipedia a few weeks ago, I've received a lot of additional information about the joint operation of NCAHF and Quackwatch. I believe there was an appeal earlier to join these two articles, and I fully support it. It is impossible to tell where one operation ends and the other begins. Barrett rules ... as NCAHF head of 'internet operations' as well as Chairman of QW. Paul Lee (fyslee) runs their Webring Operation of 90 blogs and websites each promoting the other. Lee appears to be stationed as a professional healthfraud 'editor' here on Wikipedia. I've seen him pounce on and revert valid edits within seconds of their appearance. I see he just quit his longtime job as "Assistant Listmaster" of the Healthfraud List. He has repeatedly claimed that NCAHF was a legal California Corporation and for months removed the links proving this was false. His performance on Wikipedia resembles a Barrett puppet, in my opinion.

QW/NCAHF claims to send over 11,000 subscribers their newsletter ... JOINTLY. Barrett runs the Healthfraud List with an iron hand and promotes both QW/NCAHF and their Webring. Barrett signs with adverts to both QW and NCAHF and in fact, their sites cross promote and reference each other. It is rare that he is not wearing both these hats for his published opinions. For these reasons, I vote that the two articles be combined.

I recently visited several articles on Wikipedia and one would believe that it was QuackWatch / Wikipedia Branch. Single articles are filled with Quackwatch POV ... while others were fought off by Paul Lee and others.

Regarding the lack of legal corporate status in evidence ... the fact that hours and hours were wasted as people defending Barrett used every distraction and propaganda trick in the books is pure bullying. It is not a game for a non profit to prove their legal status. It could have been done in a heartbeat. The silliest game of all was for them to ask us to prove the negative that they were not incorporated in the other 49 states. I call that Quack Logic.

One of Barrett's own published definitions of what he opines is quackery"... quackery could be broadly defined as anything involving over promotion in the field of health." With 90 blogs and websites and thousands of articles circulated promoting QW/NCAHF, from someone with no current medical license and who has been called, by the Appelate Court of California, biased and unworthy of credibility'; speaks volumes as to his projection. Last count, there were over 417,000 pages promoting Barrett on a google search. Over promotion?

Further, I wish to readdress the fact of his failure to protect his patients by passing the Psychiatric Exams in several decades of "practice." This fact was only brought to light in the deposition of Barrett's losing SLAPP suit to Dr. Koren recently. Up until then, he had proclaimed himself an 'expert' in things by simple wiggling his nose or some other decider. For years, he was asked why he had never been board certified, and refused to admit that he had FAILED his boards in the 60's. This is relevant and a valid criticism of Barrett. He was licensed in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's ... many of them spent questioning and attacking the credentials of others. His are more than questionable. No board certification means LESS patient protection, LESS questions to his license. I believe around 85% of medical licensees protected their patients with board certification by the 90's ... why not Stephen Barrett?

After perusing Wikipedia ... it seems to me that rules are made up by those promoting Barrett about criticsm about him ... but censored regarding him.

Thank you. Ilena 18:13, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox, nor a forum for you to expand your grievances/feud with Stephen Barrett. Cross-posting rants like the above is disruptive. You've received innumerable suggestions and warnings, ranging from friendly to exasperated, and have apparently chosen to ignore them. At some point, the community's patience will be exhausted. Please consider contributing constructively. MastCell 20:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct. It is not a soapbox for Barrett to pick and choose what he wants to advertise about himself. For someone who goes after the licenses of board certified licensed doctors when he is non licensed and failed his boards and refused to retake them for several decades, and for someone who operates "credential watch" ... Wikipedia should definitely not allow his questionable operations to be soapboxed here. Ilena 17:21, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

And we have policies and guidelines to prevent Barrett from doing so. Your theories and accusations of Barrett's doings do not make you immune from those same policies and guidelines. Take your soapbox elsewhere. --Ronz 17:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I propose this section be immediately moved to the archive as being off topic and disruptive. --Ronz 17:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm new to the scene. For others who don't know what the feud is about (or that there was one), I'll share what I found: http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/bolen.html She "republished" messages from Bolen; that is, copied his writings (that Barrett was claiming was libel) to newsgroups. —Długosz 03:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Admin noticeboard post

This has gone on long enough. I've posted to the admin noticeboard regarding Ilena's persistent disruptive editing. MastCell 18:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)