Talk:Jazz fusion

Electric bass vs. Bass guitar

I've reverted the reference to electric bass back to bass guitar. The main reason for the preference is that it avoids a redirect page (electric bass > bass guitar), thus conserving Wikipedia and bandwidth resources. I think it also better represents the family of instruments, tuned as a bass but modelled on the shape of guitars, that tended to be used in jazz fusion, but I think efficient use of resources is the clinching issue. Basswulf 09:52, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'll defer to your judgement on the Wiki technical issues. I do think electric bass is more useful within the context of the article because electrification (more than the shape of the instrument) is part of what differentiated fusion from previous forms (many of which included some form of bass). Jgm 14:28, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

As someone who prefers to think of himself as a bassist rather than a bass guitarist, in some ways I'd prefer to see the bass article called electric bass rather than bass guitar. However, that then raises issues about where acoustic bass guitars fit - probably best in that article, even though they are not necessarily electrified in any way. What you could do is make a reference to the electric bass guitar if you feel that "...electric guitar, bass guitar ..." doesn't do it justice. Basswulf 16:11, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Ah, the penny has just dropped for me that bass guitar is, indeed, distinct from (or at least a subset of) "bass", and that saying that the new form used "bass guitar" does imply a change from more traditional jazz. And I see the dilemma Since acoustic bass guitars are fairly rare I tend to agree with you that the bass guitar article should probably have been titled electric bass. To me this is the kind of situation redirects are made for, but given your concern about that I can live with the article the way it is, or the substitution you suggest, equally comforatably.

Jgm 20:09, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Jazz Rock

I have always heard the term "jazz rock" which (redirects to this page) associated with Steely Dan, who are not mentioned herein. Misnomer? — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 09:54, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

Jazz-rock sure is not very well established concept and the word is probably used in different contexts. It can refer to fusion music, that sounds like rock, and it is also used when speaking about jazz-influenced rock...

The term jazz rock is arguably used when speaking of bands like blood, sweat & tears, chicago. These bands represented pop- oriented songs with a strong relation to jazz. The term "jazz fusion" derives from mainly jazz structures but with strong hints of rock/funk/latin. Of course, after only a few years the genre fusion was established in its own right, with different subgenres. This is one of perhaps several possible explainations for this confusion between "jazz rock" and "jazz fusion" Tore Morten Andreassen, Norway

Jazz Rock (Rock Jazz?)

I have added an entry for King Crimson. This should be expanded. The contribution of Robert Fripp (compared to Shakti for instance!) and related musicians is greatly underestimated in the Jazz-Rock and Fusion Literature. Added later: This entry (for "The Court of the Crimson King") has been removed. I see this as Vandalism. It is both elitist and racist (Anglophobic). Please reinstate it! Listen to 21st Century Schizoid Man again and then tell me that this is not one of the most important Fusion tracks ever recorded.

It would also actually be appropriate to have some discussion of the use of Jazz structures and solos by essentially rock bands such as Pink Floyd and even Hawkwind. Keith Bowden, London

def?

I'm sure that for the class of musicians (like me) which have been playing modern Jazz/ Fusion/ Jazz rock, it is quite clear what fusion usually is understood to be, probably most notably Jimi Hendrix and Weather Report (though that wouldn't always be rock) as important early exponents, and jazz rock meaning simply jazz and rock fused, so jazz things in a rock way or the other way around, fairly simple. House and hiphop type of music normally wouldn't be called Jazz Rock because usually that is neither rock nor Jazz...! --Theo Verelst

Yeah, but Hendrix made just few jazz-rock pieces (south saturn delta, rainy day dream away ...and... uhm... any more?). And even in those pieces he plays in quite bluesy manner instead of using jazz scales. --anon

Separate list of artists/albums

The list is getting pretty long, maybe we should make a page base only on this list? Karol 10:10, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the situation is still OK, but it is possible to make an own page for the list. "The most essential" list should be left to this article since it is not very long and since it is important. --128.214.69.48 17:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I dont think we should do that at all. The other notable jazz album section is just a sandbox for anyone to edit. It has no real guidelines in what can be put there. Its a complete opinion section, not for wikipedia. We should consider a full delete of that section, and a restructuring of the essential section as well. Mkaycomputer 00:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

On this point I added John Abercrombie Timeless in the notable album selection a few days ago but see someone has already removed it. I created the album page a few days back as it one of my personal favourites and added it on this page as i would consider it to be an important fusion album (though also admittedly wanted link to my page heh heh). Not sure why you took it off- you mention list getting too long (obviously i recognise the need to keep clutter to a minimum), but also possilby you don't consider it objectively essential... difficulty here is establishing 'objectivity'- no-one can really be objective about anything, the closest we can come is to assume the standard accepted point of view which does not mean being objective and is in my opinion not always a good thing. When you say 'Its a complete opinion section, not for wikipedia' you must surely also recognise that anyone writing on the site is essentially writing their opinion..my point is that you need to be careful when censoring other peoples opinions. Apologies for the rant. elsmallo85

Smooth Jazz

How can the genres of jazz fusion and smooth jazz be seperated? For example, albums like "The Pat Metheny Group" do have some hints of smooth jazz, such as the very repetive motifs and lack of complex improv. --65.100.150.4 21:37, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

There are always problems while separating musical genres that are close to each other. Of course you may always find a stuff that is "between" two genres or belongs to both of them at once. Or you may find an album that has many different styles. I think that the complexity of improvisation is not the fact that distinguishes fusion and smooth jazz. The essential feature of smooth jazz is that it has a "smooth" production and also compositions tend to be "smooth" - though this is not easy thing to describe. If you are talking about Pat Metheny Group's very first album, I think it falls quite clearly into jazz-rock category (that is subgenre of fusion) but you may be right that the album has some "smooth" elements too. Anyway, the album is not produced very smoothly but has mostly that kind of jazz-rock feel (no additional background synths, vocal dubs, strings etc.). Some latter Pat Metheny Group's albums such as Still Life (Talkin') have some tracks that have very "smooth" sound. Of course, there hardly are any objective methods to distinguish genres that are close to each other in every case. --128.214.205.5 09:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Section on "Fusion Carries On" and album list

The prior article, while very well written, made it seem as if real fusion had basically been killed off by smooth jazz - which is simply false - bands like Tribal Tech and Allan Holdsworth rival the best fusion bands of the 1970's, and they, and their records, deserve significant mention in this article. I deleted one paragraph in the prior section to remove most or all duplicative references, and have added art and made a few other minor edits. Thank you. Tvccs 23:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There was still some repetition and post-1970s section (which itself is a good idea) was out of balance (and still is) in the sense that you have written about artists you yourself happen to know or that are your personal favorites. How is it possible that for example John Scofield was not mentioned in the text at all but Andy Summers was? --128.214.205.4 07:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

---With all due respect, anonymous Helsinki, John Scofield (who I've met and like very much, was included in the albums list you keep chopping nearly all the recent stuff off. He also doesn't have the reputation as a fusion guitarist that either Henderson or Holdsworth does, period, not that he's not a great player. I'm even one of his MySpace friends. Although I appreciate your efforts and, well..at least you left the section semi-intact this go-round, you're far more attuned to your favorites - Chick Corea's Elektric Band doesn't deserve that much space or attention, nor does Zawinul's new work, which is often more world music than fusion these days. If there's a bias here...it's the huge one present in your album list/content which has what...a zillion Corea and related records (and not even Time Warp - a killer video and band). And yes....I love Chick and have seen him, love Weather Report (your choices are too commerical in the later albums IMHO, and have seen them play live since 1971. I've met many of the bands on this list, have seen nearly all play live, and know a number of them personally. Ask 100 guitarists if Frank Gambale rates with Holdsworth and Henderson and 90 will tell you no. And yes, I've met Frank too and sat three feet from him in a club in L.A. where I usually see Scott play. Oh yes, I'm on Frank's MySpace site too. You continue to basically insist nearly every "landmark" fusion record was recorded before 1980...and that's dead wrong. Are we going to colloborate here or enagage in a transatlantic pissing contest with you as an anonymous user? I like Bill Frisell, heard and met him as well, but most of his recent work isn't fusion - as you indicated, neither is Scofield's yet you insisted on waxing about all of his other styles. Nice language in the history section too...just because Holdsworth was mentioned earlier didn't mean it wasn't important to introduce him more thoroughly in the later section - it's the SynthAxe that really opened up his composing. Corea and his folks are all over the place in one form or another. I am going to edit this again and add things back in, especially albums...if you think the list is too long, I'll delete some of the repetitive entries from Davis, Corea, Coryell, Di Meola, Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock and a few others - I've met and/or seen all of these guys multiple times. And if we can't play nice, I'll bring in the JazzWiki Project editor...And...thanks for moving the intro section from my section up to the head...that was a good idea - well done and a better placement. I will wait for a reply since I can't post you directly...and let's see what we can work out. Maybe a joint live edit, per se. If not, I'll revert more. Just let me know. Thanks.

Actually...I am going to revert more...now that I've seen more of your editing on Holdsworth, Henderson and other stuff. We should do a joint edit and play nice...but you are one incredibly opinionated Finn. And I doubt you've heard, and or think they're worth the powder to blow them to hell...a lot of the recent acts I've mentioned. I've been listening to this stuff and seeing meeting these people for more than 30 years. I could have yanked Gino Vanelli from the prior text, and a bunch of other stuff...but I thought this was an add project...not a compete. Maybe I'm wrong...although I hope not Tvccs 09:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

As I reread your version of the last section again, it's obvious you think Corea, Metheny, Zawinul and Davis are still the only real fusion people out there. That's poppycock. Most of them don't even play real fusion anymore, and Miles is dead. Pat Metheny's a great player...and so is Lyle Mays...but they rarely play fusion anymore. You should get your hands on the Dejohnette video you deleted the mention of...it's the best playing Pat's ever recorded IMHO, and a great video production.

And yes...let me also offer the following. I am a great fan of Scott Henderson..I think he's the best electric player on the planet at the moment. When I originally drafted the section, I had a mention of his more recent blues material - but I took it out because it wasn't "on topic", per se. Look at your Scofield and Frisell stuff and ask if you can say the same?

I know this is your "baby", and you've obviously done a lot of good work here - but it's not just "your work", and the way the original article was written says real fusion died about 1980...except as practiced by YOUR few favorites...the "real" fusion people. And with all due respect, that's simply not true. Tvccs 09:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. let's stop wasting time and energy and colloborate - and I'm sorry...Chick, Joe, Pat, etc are not the be all end of fusion. It's a disserviece to allow people to think so when they are a ton of great newer artists struggling to earn a dime keeping the music alive. Tvccs 09:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

And one other question...what's the deal with no links? There is a provision for outside linking built into the software...and I've seen nothing in Wikipedia that doesn't allow/encourage it? Is there a rule I'm unaware of? Or is this a "I say so" command just because you prefer it that way? Tvccs 09:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think our views are too different. I do some minor editing now with proper commentary to history field. And then I'll add some more comments here. --128.214.205.4 11:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I really did not mean that work of Chick or Davis in 1980s is more important than Henderson's or Holdsworth's. Since Davis is such a giant in jazz and since he spent after all 1980s decade in performing fusion, introducing young important musicians, it is relevant to write a sentence or two about his 1980s work. Elektric Band is only briefly mentioned and I think it is important since it after all was one of the most well known fusion acts of its perioid and especially because Weckl and Patitucci became famous when playing in the band. Gambale is mentioned as briefly as possible, I did not mean that he is more important than anybody else. But we can mention his name in one sentence. Now Pat Metheny is moved entirely to previous section though due to his importance for fusion, he could have been also mentioned in past-1970s section. More comments coming soon. --128.214.205.4 11:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

So, OK, if you look at the article now, what are the problems (besides, that some important artists may be missing)? A sentence or two can be added about Henderson or Holdsworth but rather about their style instead of giving a list of their band members (endless name dropping and using brackets makes the text look stupid). DeJohnette could have been introduced earlier with a sentence or two.

I think the essential albums list could be removed, since the same information is available (or should be) on the articles of artists. This kind of policy has been used before in similar cases. That list could stress 1970s material for the reason that it is not easy to say, what 1980s or 1990s recordings are "the essentials". It is hard to find any concrete information, what albums of some more recent artists are really widely respected.

I have no time for further analysis right now. There are no any necessary significant conflicting views. --128.214.205.4 11:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your attempt at civility and collaboration - Musically...I agree...with rare exception we'd have a ball in most settings - I don't know what it is that makes you not like Scott Henderson...he's a Corean, per se, but your heavy metal reference would make he and I both simultaneously laugh and throw up - I may have to copy him with your commentary. And I still disagree with your edits in the end section in many cases, although I have no issue with others.

We do have an issue, however, with Wiki formatting - here's an article about music...music we both obviously love, and yet there's not one sample of it to be found anywhere on this page. The idea here is collaboration...and one of the KEY aspects of collaboration is links - lots of them. Why you don't "like" the formatting is beyond me, but you're missing half the point of this venture. These pages should serve as a forum for people to discover and explore, not just a static page, and believe me, as a Web designer, I have overdosed on seeing complex flash pages that are a nightmare to navigate. To have a music page that doesn't provide a single link to provide examples of the music under discussion in forum like this is not only limited, it borders on asinine. I've built pages on here that in a single paragraph have multiple audio and video links to outside and inside sources, read just fine, yet there's nothing here of that type. The time would be just as well spent building album pages of those you treasure that could be LINKED to from the copy. Join the WikiAlbum Porject and do the work. Frankly, I have no idea why your thoughts on that subject should serve as the gospel for this page forever - you obviously did a very good job working on this subject with an eye towards your heavy 70's beliefs. They just aren't complete, and again, they do a disservice to all the people making this music today with little or no financial backing. It's more work to build the pages with all the right links and sources, but that's what makes the difference between a mediocre experience and something that's far more interesting. To simply rely on type to do the job largely defeats the purpose, and we both know Wikis are not fancy pages.

• • • I'll have a look at your latest changes. Thanks. Tvccs 12:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • I also think it's a good idea to keep the records list and hope other users build pages for them. It might be to prudent to change the name to "Recommended" or "Suggested". I'm going to post my own cut-down version as well. And you can have a look. I think it would be counterproductive to kill it, however. Tvccs 12:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I've said anything negative about Henderson yet. Yes, I really think that Tribal Tech (songs like "The Big Wave" and many others) are influenced by heavy metal tradition (riffs and guitar sound). Though, it is not necessary to stress this. I checked some instructions and since external links in text section are not disallowed, they can be used, though I rather put them in "external links" section. I still see an enormous problem with recording list, since it is really impossible to pick some particular albums by some particular artists. In some cases this is possible but often there is simply no any way to determine which albums are the most respected. --128.214.205.6 12:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to tell you this is the very first time I have ever heard "The Big Wave" described as Heavy Metal anything and I have been sharing Tribal Tech with people for fifteen years - it's far closer to what McLaughlin was doing with Mahavishnu (who Scott loves), albeit with a lot more bending and slurring and use of mostly minor effects. I've changed the name to a "Suggested" list...we're trying to point people at high-quality exaples here, and this list does that. It also includes more newer work than the prior one, but the majority of listings are still pre-1980. And as far as "expertise, we certainly both seem to have plenty, and we're simply sharing that with others - again, that's what Wikipedia is all about.

If you want to see an example of what I mean with linking - visit Derek Sherinian. It should serve as an example of what a Wikipedia page can be, even with the limitations of WikiMedia. And that one page now delivers as much or more information than a very complex Web site. All the audio and video on the page is obtained from correctly copyrighted sources as well, even though the links are exterior.

And on your suggestion...it might be good to see if some examples of fusion audio and video can be scouted and linked to with the idea of creating an examples section at the bottom of the page if you like, even though I prefer to have the links with the text - the Sherinian site does a very good job of presenting both internal and external links attactively, using the provided HTML to hide the links. It takes longer to do it, but the end result is very user-friendly. I await your thoughts Tvccs 13:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm tired of editing this article now. I don't care what you do (though I may hope you keep some of my ideas in mind). But album names should be written with italics with no "quotation marks" used. In other wikipedia articles, such as 1980s, decades are written like "1980s" instead of "1980's". And I still don't like the list. I checked some artists from All Music Guide and they seem to have very different ideas what is the best album of some particular artists. Of course, AMG reviews are just opinions of one person but so are your opinions as long as you don't have any source... This is why I see the list problematic. You can go and remove some Weather Report, Miles Davis and Coryell albums from the list, I have not added them. Should not Yellowjackets be mentioned? I thought they're famous and playing fusion. --128.214.205.6 13:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for your feedback, and I think we got to a point of mutual agreement on nearly all of it...that's the idea. As far as AMG goes...either you or I likely have ten times the knowledge in this area than anyone on AMG does...I'm not obligated to rely on AMG...I've been doing a lot of very detailed research on Derek Sherinian and Planet X and have been floored at the number of mistakes on AMG, much less a lack of detail - a properly implemented Wikipedia can blow AMG out of the water in many respects. I'll look to link to them for specific album reviews, but in many cases there are other "professional" sites that have better information, more complete music samples, etc. - and as an end user, I generally get far better information from reading the collective review on Amazon in many cases than what AMG has to offer. For the Yellowjackets...the opinion in the U.S. is that they are far more "smooth" than "fusion" at this point a 'la a Spyro Gyra. However, I'm not god's gospel here either..if you feel strongly, add it back in. I know a lot about this subject, but there are certainly people that know more - the guys that run Audiophile Imports are walking talking encyclopedias on this stuff. When I get a chance I'm going to look for examples of the music that can be linked here. I'll try and set them up in a section at the bottom of the page as I find them. As far as the decades style, I write for a major newspaper group in the US, and follow AP professional style. If there's something I'm missing on Wiki formatting...I'll change it, but I doubt it should be modified at this point. Again, my thanks for your assistance and colloboration - I'm curious to hear your feedback about the linking as implemented on the Derek Sherinian page - whatever it might be. Thanks again. Tvccs 21:41, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I used AMG as an example just in order to demonstrate why I feel that it is hard to recommend any certain albums (expect those ones, that really are generally considered as classics). I don't object linking any more, I thought that it is against Wikipedia's style but if it is not, then I don't care. Many sources, including Wikipedia, say that Yellowjackets is a fusion band, so perhaps the band's name could be mentioned since they are so well known after all. But there is yet another guitarist, who might be significant enough to get mentioned, namely David Torn. He has made some quite respected "avant-gardish" albums such as Cloud About Mercury. Another name that comes to me is that drummer Ronald Shannon Jackson and his "free-funk" music that derives from Ornette Coleman's ideas but I'm not sure whether it belongs to fusion tradition or not. Those early examples of fusion in the beginning of the article, that include The Byrds and Paul Butterfield Blues Band, are not written by me and I have no idea whether they are relevant at all. Some fan may have put them. I've partially removed that material but there are still some of it left. And is it really meaningful for fusion that Cream members played long, improvised solos? Well, it may be but I'm not sure. Santana may be much more important since their music - from the very first album released in 1969 - really has some similarities when compared to some jazz/rock/latin fusion. --128.214.205.4 07:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of David Torn as well...I just wish he had more "stuff" out there...I have a video of him with Terry Bozzio that's fabulous doing Hendrix stuff. Ronald Shannon Jackson...good question...I really only listened to his stuff after really getting into Vernon Reid, from that era...but that's a good question...might be worth a brief with a Vernon reference. Yeah...I wondered about the Byrds reference, and other stuff...but it's not a bad idea to link this music with other forms...although I questioned whether Cream really should be linked simply because they did a lot of lengthy solos...but I wasn't t trying to delete a lot of stuff...unless it's factually wrong...and one can make the argument that some of those early bands had a "jazz" connection, even if it's not all that obvious. I'm not sure what Roger McGuinn would say about Eight Miles High in that sense...I'll bet there's a Web article somewhere that discusses it. The Santana thought is also valid..."Lotus" and the Tom Coster stuff certainly qualifies...hell...Lotus belongs in this album list...an unbelievebly good three record set with almost no vocals...no wonder it wasn't released in the US for years...that's a good idea. Thanks again.

YOUTUBE

Are youtube -links good idea? They may break copyrights (about which I do not personally care about so much, but which is against Wikipedia's rules) and those files in youtube come and go so we should keep constantly monitoring whether they are working or not. --128.214.205.4 13:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Many artists are now using YouTube and other sources to promote their work, and YouTube has a policy of removing any work that is copyrighted for which they receive a legitimate complaint. It is necessary to monitor the links and edit/remove/update as needed for any linked content, and I prefer to go to other sources than YouTube when possible that may offer a better chance of permanence. That being said, especially when it comes to music, etc., those links are extremely valuable in providing persons with actual samples of real music/video, and I am personally not a fan of the :30 ogg samples around in Beta which are far too limited in comparsion. Tvccs 00:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

And let me add...for the record...there was a link here that YouTube recently pulled for such a complaint I had to replace...so it's not like they're ignoring copyright. I expect the Google purchase will only increase vigilance/compliance in that area as well. Tvccs 19:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

11th house linked (my minor change)

I took a bet that Coryell's 11th house was not too obscure for mention (1 of their albums is one of my 26 favorite albums of all time), and the bet payed off. There is an Article about this band, and I created a link to such, @it's first mention. This was an important early fusion band.