Talk:Stem cell controversy

Archiving

As the page was over 60kb, I've created an archive & archive box. Dr Aaron 02:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Rephrasing the arguments

I've had a go at rephrasing both the for and against arguments sections. I'm happier with them, but I still think I could do better if I really took the time. Upon reflection (and re-writing the section), I really think that most people do take an inherently utilitarian approach, and the main point of contention is what value to put on an embryo. Dr Aaron 10:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

On the pro-side the arguments are typically utilitarian but not so on the anti-side. --Herb West 18:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the opening paragraph. "Opponents of the research argue that this practice is a slippery slope to reproductive cloning and tantamount to the instrumentalization of a potential human being." -- I have heard very few people object to embryonic stem cell research because it may lead to cloning. The reason I have heard most often for opposing it is that harvesting embryonic stem cells requires the destruction of a human embryo, in other words, murder. (A method has been developed where some of an embryo's cells are taken, and the remaining embryo is allowed to live, presumaby to adulthood, but there's even an objection to that: The cells taken have the ability to grow into a full-fledged embryo themselves. Essentially, this process duplicates the method in which identical twins form naturally, and then murders one of the twins.) 163.192.21.44 17:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't write the opening paragraph & I certainly see your point. I've left the statement in, but I've softened it a bit.

The second method you allude to is described in the section 2.3 Stem cells without embryonic destruction. One criticism of the approach described by Lanza (harvesting stem cells from embryos without destroying them) is that all the embryos in his study were destroyed - none of them were even attempted to be taken to term. I was thinking I should update that section when I find the time. Dr Aaron 02:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Aaron, I agree with Herb West, that the basis for most anti-stem cell arguments is not based in utilitarianism, rather in teleology. To be clear, I agree that the statement "the value of an embryo outweighs the potential benefits to medicine" is a utilitarian statement, not a teleological one, however, that is not the basic argument used by the "religous." Therefore I propose substituting a teleological statement, and one consistent with those who may be anti-STR, as follows: "Based upon this value system, the subsequent argument against embryonic stem cell research is teleological, i.e. life (an embryo) is inherently valuable and cannot be involuntarily destroyed to save another life." I hope that makes sense. SteveMc 01:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I like your line about teleology and substituted it in pretty much as is. I think we should also add the argument often made that research into ES cells is a slippery slope to other "unethical" research avenues, including human cloning. The recent statements of the Australian Cardinal Pell along the lines that ES cell research will lead to "monstrous human-animal hybrids" could be cited (with references). Dr Aaron 06:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

One "slippery slope" argument might be that technological advances may make it impossible to enforce some legal safeguards, because it will become extremely difficult to know what researchers might be up to, unofficially, in their labs. At the moment, if a "mad scientist" type wants to mess about with human cell lines in ways that society would disapprove of, they first have to source some embyronic material, which may leave an administrative trail. But once we learn how to get somatic cells to do the trick, then it becomes much easier to play Frankenstein, or to obtain viable reproductive material from people, perhaps without their knowledge or permission. It makes it more difficult for an individual to enforce their reproductive rights in deciding who they may have children with, or if they want to have children at all. There may be implications for the retention of tissue by hospitals or even dentists. Does consenting to be an organ donor or leaving your body to science mean that you may be unwittingly agreeing that your reproductive cells (or any other cells) can be used to create embryos after your death? A patient may be quite keen to to have some sort of guarantee their tissue sample or removed organ is not eventually going to be used to make them the unknowing father of someone's gruesome illegal lab experiments.

And there are going to be other social issues that will have to be dealt with. Suppose that someone obtained a tissue sample of, say, a famous and wealthy celebrity. If they could develop an embryo, and then remove viable egg cells from that embryo, they may be able to fertilise those cells, leading to a child that is the offspring of that person, and who may be eligible for a share in their personal wealth or (if they are deceased) their estate. Does someone have parental responsibilities for a child that was produced without their consent or knowledge? Can children conceived post-mortem by third parties have a claim on a wealthy family's resources? The recent scrabbling about between men claiming to be father of Anna Nicole Smith's child (because the child may stand to inherit a lot of money) may be a foretaste of some of the awkward problems that we might have ahead of us. ErkDemon 10:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

New-born Ukranian babies murdered for stem-cells

I believe this belongs somewhere in the article.

--BigFishy 10:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Just like the Korean fraud needs to be mentioned in the article.--Getaway 17:50, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree - at this stage. While an interesting report, I'd like to see how it develops and is discussed before putting it in. The Korean fraud probably should be added, although I'm not sure how it would fit in - it doesn't really impact on the ethics per se. It is a simple case of scientific fraud. I guess it could fit in as an argument against stem cell research - there is a high amount of pressure on scientists to generate life-saving results and is thus prone to fraud. Dr Aaron 21:49, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

IF stem cell research has a future then I assume there has been extensive animal experiments. The article mentions mice once - one footnote that goes to an article that mentions mice once. There must be far more animal research and promising results than one mice heart fixed. Is there a link to animal research and all the benefits that have been found. ( Cures for animal diabetes, etc ) The article almost sounds like human research has started before - or awfully close behind - animal studies. Are the researchers jumping the gun to be the first in a human discovery - long before the basic science is even understood - sounds like AIDS research (mixing up cures in their cauldrons to see if a pinch of frog helps).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.105.80.219 (talk • contribs) 12:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC))

Can scientists ever win? If a focus is put on animal research, opponents claim the research is unfeasible because of the extensive differences between mice and humans. If human experiments are pushed, they get criticised for jumping the gun to be the first to get a human discovery.

Enough ranting.

To address the above statement, the science in this article is fairly thin on the ground because stem cell and related pages focus on the science, while this page focuses on the ethical and social arguments for and against stem cells.

There has been a lot of cell biology done with both animal and human stem cells. However, the therapeutic applications of this research has not been rapidly translated to either mouse or human models, although many are trying and there are some "promising findings". Much the same for cancer research really - we know a lot about what causes cancer and the genetic changes that go on in cancer cells, but this hasn't translated into a cure (nor is there one on the horizon).

In my opinion, cell-based therapies will be increasingly used in medicine (they have been for years) i.e. bone marrow transplants, but the ethical and cost issues associated with using true "stem cells" will make clinical translation a long way off. Neurology has the most to gain from stem cell research, with other cell types showing little hope of curing spinal cord damage or brain degeneration. Dr Aaron 13:32, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Larid study

I just noticed that some comment was made about an article apparently going to be published in nature saying that cancer is caused by ES cells? I'd like a reference (and to read it first) before putting something as inflammatory. Also, epigenetics does not refer to "drinking and smoking". That statement is plain wrong. Dr Aaron 06:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I marked it citation needed, it seems too charged and weighted to one side to belong without references. 24.227.5.66 17:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Rename page to Stem cell ethical controversy?

I think there needs to be more emphasis on the fact that there is ethical controversy over embryonic stem cell research, but not adult stem cell research. I propose changing the title because there is a lot of non-ethically related "stem cell controversy" such as plasticity of adult stem cells, adult stem cell fusion, etc to reflect that this page does not cover these topics. (Or, links to these topics could be added). --MPW 16:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the name - current the lay person doesn't always understand the convoversy pertains to embryonic stem cells.

I don't think all the ethical controversy of stem cells is unique to embryonic stem cells. For instance, if adult stem cells can be suitably reprogrammed to behave like ES cells, the potential for human reproductive cloning is still there. Also adult stem cells reprogramming may be able to make an "embryo", so there is still the descruction of life argument.

I agree there isn't much discussion over the plasticity of adult stem cells, however this page is generally dedicated to the social and ethical implications of stem cell research. Debate about adult stem cell plasticity is probably better placed in the adult stem cell page. I don't see why there couldn't be a short summary of the plasticity argument though, with a ->main article: adult stem cell link.

Dr Aaron 21:45, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Dr Aaron, you say "if adult stem cells can be suitably reprogrammed to behave like ES cells, the potential for human reproductive cloning is still there. Also adult stem cells reprogramming may be able to make an "embryo", so there is still the descruction of life argument." Are these "if"s hypothetical or have these things actually been done?

The manufacture of ES cells from adult cells has been successfully done in other organisms and has been claimed to be done in humans (see therapeutic cloning). Dr Aaron 00:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

If these haven't been performed yet, then I would certainly limit the controversy to only embryos, since those are the only things that those who are "religious" and political are complaining about. In fact, even if these experiments have been performed with those exact results, so few people actual know about it (due to the media's skewed concentration on specific issues) that it could, for all intents and purposes, not be used as a reason that warrants the removal of the word "embryo" from the stem cell article.

Additionally, if adult stem cells can be engineered to act like or even become embryos or embryonic stem cells, the controversy still doesn't change: the cells are no longer AS cells; they are ES cells, and, as such, the word "embryonic" should be included in the article. It doesn't matter if those ES cells were previously AS cells or anything else, for that matter; all that matters is that they are ES cells now and thus the controversy surrounds them only because they have become ES cells. --shrinkshooter 22:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I definitely see your point that using therapeutic cloning to convert adult cells into ES cells basically makes them functionally embryonic.

But for good or bad, embryonic stem cell research is commonly referred to as "stem cell research" without the embryonic tag, and thus some of "stem cell controversy" has rubbed off adult stem cell research by name association.

Still, based on your arguments, I'm starting to agree with you that specifying "embryonic" a few more times throughout the article wouldn't do too much harm. And also more clearly making the point that therapeutic cloning using adult cells makes them effectively embryonic stem cells.

I'll think about it some more & read some more articles on the subject before posting again (I don't have full uni journal access from my home computer). Please note that I'm not one of those Wiki contributors that will doggedly stick to their views and not listen to reasoned and convincing argument.

Still, as a general statement, I still feel that the whole page shouldn't be renamed as it will make the page name a bit too bulky & unwieldy.

With respect to the argument that the page should be renamed as the current arguments are mainly ethical, I'd rather see the social arguments be expanded upon than the page made more restrictive by a name change. There are many subjects of social controversy that are poorly discussed at present, e.g. if they are costly, will only rich people be able to benefit from stem cell research?; will the benefits flow on only to developed countries?; what are the different political stances on stem cell research? etc. Dr Aaron 00:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In general, I think the majority of people will agree that the major controversy is the ethical debate about the ES source and when approached with the term "stem cell controversy", that's what comes to mind. However, there are a good number of other issues that, while they may not need an entire separate article to address, at least deserve a small discussion. The examples the Dr Aaron presented above are good ones (the social controversy of advanced medical issues in general). One issue in particular that is part of a larger topic is whether people should be able to patent stem cell discoveries. This issue is just a portion of the controversy over biotechnology patents, such as on the human genome, and I think it has a place in this article.

Also, in regards to the therapeutic cloning discussion, it was my understanding that reverting adult stem cells to a more "embryonic" state doesn't mean that you use them to create an embryo and go from there. From the papers that I've read, the reprogramming just enables the cells to multiply like ES cells and revert to a more primitive state where they can differentiate into more cell types. I'll try to track more down, but I'm pretty sure that some specific statements were made, such as in Takahashi, K. et al., Cell, 25 August 2006, to the effect of "these cells will not become embryos" either because they aren't primitive enough to constitute themselves into an embryo or they are kept in the ES like state to multiply the population, after which they are induced to differentiate down a particular path instead of all paths, as a blastocyst would. If this is the case, then the "embryonic" controversy doesn't exactly apply to adult stem cells reprogrammed to behave like ES cells. However, it does introduce its own set of controversies. Takahashi, did the reprogramming by introducing copies of c-Myc, Sox2, Oct3/4, Klf4 into the cells to reset them to an ES-like state. This is a genetic engineering approach, so that is obviously controversial.

Cquan 02:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that in therapeutic cloning, the process of somatic cell nuclear transfer is used to generate a blastocyst. This blastocyst can develop into an embryo if it is implanted into a surrogate mother, which is the key difference between reproductive cloning and therapeutic cloning. In therapeutic cloning, the blastocysts are dissociated for ES cells. SCNT requires an egg and a donor adult cell from the organism to be cloned. Technically, the cloned cells/organism has "foreign" mitochondrial DNA from the egg donor, which is something that isn't always considered.

The Takahashi paper was a pretty big & recent study (it was in Cell about 6 months ago). The possibility of reprogramming cells without SCNT is one I think is pretty exciting, but the study was only done in mice. Considering how differently mouse ES cells and human ES cells behave (for example the use of LIF in culture media), I'm not sure that these four factors will be sufficient for creating human ES-like cells from adult human cells. Dr Aaron 09:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I highly respect you for being open-minded and considering the other option, and I would like to mention that I'd like to extend the same to you. Through this small exchange I've learned something new about stem cells, which is good for future reference, but I also understand where you're coming from with name association. Now that I think about it, virtually every time someone says "stem cells" the nearest person instantly thinks "embryos" and "controversy," at least in my experience, because the media has mentally mapped those two components together. As it is, I wouldn't mind now if "embryonic" didn't show up, because of the association people have with the word.

So, it all comes down to this question: do we include the word "embryonic" on a technicality? Or do we overlook it in favor of the fact that almost everyone associates the words "stem cells" with the concept of embryonic stem cell research? All in all an interesting question that leaves us at a fork in the road...ultimately, however, I don't think the submission or omission of a single adjective in an article will make too great of an impact. Your thoughts? --shrinkshooter 06:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Rename page to Embryonic stem cell controversy?

I've stepped away for a few days and had another iimpartial look over the page. While I still think there are a few things that could be expanded on in terms of the social/political controversy (perhaps link to some of the key figures in the current debate), I acknowledge that the majority of the current page in some way refers to the ethics of generating and using embryonic stem cells (and the associated embryonic destruction). On reflection I'm willing to support a name change to Embryonic stem cell controversy, which suits the current page better than stem cell ethical controversy. I don't think it is 100% necessary, but I don't think it would be too objectionable either.

That is, unless someone can find reference to ethical problems with adult stem cells beyond that of reprogramming them for therapeutic cloning (which basically makes them ES cells anyway), or aside from the confusion of them being indistinguishable from ES cells in many media reports.

But I'm a big fan of not making such a major decision on a controversial page without a good consensus. I might leave a message on the MCB Wikiproject board to get a few people to leave their comments.

If a change is made, then the intro section on What is a stem cell should probably modified to focus on ES cells a bit more (and actively compare with adult stem cells). And the current page should be changed as a redirect to the new page.

Dr Aaron 13:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

THE DEVIL USES EMBRYOTIC STEM CELLS!

KILLING BABIES IS WRONG!!!! God created everyone with a purpose! If you murder the babies just for their stem cells they cant carry out that purpose! The usage of embryotic stem cells is illegal in my book!