Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest

This page is for discussing edits concerning the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline. For assistance with concerns about an article relative to this guideline please utilize the conflict of interest noticeboard.

• Wikipedia talk:Vanity guidelines/Archive 1   (~ 35 kb)   December 2004 — August 2006
• Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive2   (~ 30 kb)   August — September 2006
• Premerge talk page of third section   (~ 103 kb)   August — October 2006
• Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Archive3   (~ 374 kb)   October 2006 — March 2007

"Self promotion"?

I want to put up a page about a family owned company. I don't want to promote it--the business is operated for family and by family--not for anyone else. Can I do it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarVad (talk • contribs) 20:17, March 23, 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for asking. However, this isn't the right place to discuss individual articles. You can try Wikipedia:Help desk. You should also look at Wikipedia:Notability before creating any new articles. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 15:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

--thanks, will do — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarVad (talk • contribs) 02:53, March 25, 2007 (UTC)

Lead Edit, Rest Needs Clean Up

I revised the major bullet points to remove internal inconsistency and reflect what we've been discussing since everyone seems close to agreement. If I am wrong, feel free to change or revert. I don't mind. Can we clean up the rest of the guideline. It's too wordy, resulting in redundancy and inconsistency. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 04:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Completely in agreement here. Also like the direction Mike4ty4 is going in content and tone, though I agree re abridging. Thank you! --Jim Butler^(talk) 05:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the article needs work, but the recent edits were generally a step in the wrong direction (not to mention they made it longer). Editors shouldn't ever link to their own sites, period, nor write articles about themselves. Overall, the changes are a weakening of the guideline, which I think is a really bad idea. Editors spamming and writing about themselves is a big problem, and the last thing we need to do is making it seem more acceptable. What's the reasoning behind these changes, is WP really suffering because editors aren't writing about themselves and linking to their own sites enough? --Milo H Minderbinder 12:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Milo, did you catch the discussion above, under Guideline is based on ad hominem? Editors who edit within policy should not be penalized for who they are off-WP. This guideline should be cautionary only. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 01:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

While it is cautionary, it also needs to be useful to those dealing with COI problems. When someone spams or makes POV edits about themselves or their organization, this guideline is an important tool to be able to point to. With the new version, there's much more room for wikilawyering - an editor can just argue they were "using great caution" in their COI edits and doing nothing that wasn't allowed by the guideline. The problem with editing articles about yourself is that you don't have the perspective to know when you're being biased. For the same reason, it's a bad idea to let editors judge for themselves whether they're "using great caution" - if other editors are telling you that your edits are POV and you're showing a COI, you generally are. I'm not sure why there's such concern about "penalizing" editors. Spam and COI editing is a big problem on wikipedia. Is the inability of editors to write articles about themselves and link to their own sites a problem? A big enough one to risk making the spam problem worse over? --Minderbinder 01:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If the edits are POV, then we revert them and deal with the editor, whether the editor has apparent COI or not. Why are bad edits by COI editors any worse than bad edits by non-COI ones, or anon ones who may or may not have COI? As Jehochman says, policies are in place to deal with noncompliant editors. Don't we want people who pass WP:BIO to edit topics that they are familiar with? Under the "don't ever do it" COI guideline, Richard Dawkins could not come here and edit his own article (other than to remove libel), or articles about alternative medicine. That is absurd. We're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here, and per Jehochman, moreover moving into mediocre, wikiality-land by still allowing anon edits. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 01:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't want to see anyone editing articles about themself, Richard Dawkins or otherwise - if he wants to contribute to his article, he can participate on the talk page, and the editors of the article can always consent to IAR and letting him edit if they believe him to be handling it neutrally. As for alternative medicine, it probably just depends what part of the article he were to edit. Can you provide an example of an article suffering because the subject couldn't write it? And have you had to deal with COI editors and spammers? --Minderbinder 01:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

To answer your questions in turn: (1) not offhand; (2) sure, I've had to deal with contentious editors (with or without arguable COI) and linkspam. They're equally a pain in the ass whether they have COI or not, aren't they? Either way, WP:DR has mechanisms to deal with them. But Jehochman is right that motivated editors will edit anyway (IP proxies, meatpuppetry etc.). Do you disagree?

I'm especially concerned about a blanket ban on editors writing about subjects they're "closely connected to", in addition to articles about themselves. The harms of taking COI too far are plenty evident in the ArbCom case I mentioned above.

Why shouldn't a non-anonymous editor be able to edit whatever s/he wants, as long as the edits are otherwise compliant? A guy like Dawkins shouldn't even have a chance to edit alt-med stuff, because he might not be compliant, whereas some anonymous high school kid can? "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone (except experts) can edit." How utterly mediocre. If the guideline as you contemplate it flies, a fork of WP can't happen too soon. sincerely, Jim Butler^(talk) 03:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Milo, the edit intended to eliminate internal inconsistency. We had sentences that allowed wiggle room, and some others that didn't. I tried to make everything line up. Moreover, we have a real problem if we give anonymous editors a leg up over those who choose to identify themselves. If an anonymous editor makes good edits, you have no, ABSOLUTELY NO, way to tell if he has COI or not. Meanwhile, if somebody else decides to identify themselves, and makes the same good edit, somebody could potentially use a tighter version of this guideline to pounce on them. Identified editors shouldn't be treated worse than anonymous editors. In any case, the problems that COI seeks to prevent are covered by other policies. This guideline is here precisely to caution people so we have less Wikilawyering, not more. If somebody makes a bad edit, this guideline isn't going to give them any comfort. Instead, we can point to WP:COI and say "You were warned, but you decided to take the risk, and now you see the consequences." Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

However, the discussion Jim cited, "Guideline is based on ad hominem", is not talking about POV edits, which are obviously bad, but about neutral edits. Those are not bad. And what about cases where the editor is informed of their bias, but then attempts to correct that bias? Ie. where they do not have intent on being biased? mike4ty4 07:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

(undent)Jim - I don't agree that they're equally a pain in the ass, generally COI edits have been much easier to deal with because the guideline was clear cut. DR has mechanisms to deal either way, but the process is (was?) much simpler with COI situations. "Closely connected to" is a strawman, nobody has argued that people shouldn't edit topics they're experts in, only ones about themselves or their organization. Dawkins could certainly edit alt-med stuff, you just happened to list an article that discusses him by name. In regard to information about him, a high school kid might be a better judge of what is a neutral way to describe him and his work. People generally aren't as good at evaluating themselves as neutrally as third parties are, regardless of education or expertise. Jehochman, I have never advocated "pouncing" on those who make good edits - anyone who makes POV edits should be dealt with, and the point of this policy isn't to punish those with who are neutral and follow the rules but to make it easier to deal with COI editors who do make POV edits. --Minderbinder 03:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If somebody writes an article about me, I certainly should be allowed to make neutral edits. For instance, if they get my year of birth wrong, or spell my name wrong, why shouldn't I correct it? If there is no POV problem, then there is no COI problem either. I agree with you that run-of-the-mill POV problems are less severe than a POV + COI problem. The latter is much more likely to result in an edit war, or other persistent disruption. This guideline puts every editor on notice that there are serious consequences for COI motivated edits that violate other policies. Essentially, COI is an "intensifying" factor when we consider what to do about somebody who makes bad edits. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 04:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Things like birthday or name spelling can be corrected, and WP guidelines already say that's fine. --Minderbinder 04:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement. Can we look at the wording and see what further changes, if any, are need to convey the position that we all seem to have agreed? Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 04:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Dissagree. "exercise great caution" defeats the purpose of having the guideline. Edits other than vandalism removal are a conflict of interest. common sense would allow editing if the year of birth is wrong, or spelling is off, no one will revert that. This opens the flood gates for the PR drones, spammers and self promoters. The spam problem is massive on wikipedia, it has always been acceptable for someone with a COI to participate in the articles development on the talk page, this does not need to change. Take a look over at WT:WPSPAM most of the spam comes from those with a conflict of interest. heres one from the archives [1].--Hu12 07:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely we can forbid linkspam while allowing substantive, neutral edits from interested (and potentially expert) parties, per above... thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 07:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree. It needs to be a sharper implement. However lots of spammers argue the toss about the wording. As worded "if you have a conflict of interest, you should XYZ when editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors" it would apply to a wide range of good faith edits which is why "XYZ" cannot be a blanket prohibition. For me XYZ would pretty much rule out the whole of the international charitable and UK government sectors which is a bit ridiculous. I think we should have an "always back down in disputes if you are conflicted" and something specific about link spam perhaps prohibit addition of more than one link ever? --BozMo talk 08:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I like the current wording because it allows the necessary wiggle room for people to make the common sense edits that are obviously NPOV, while allowing us to stop COI edits that show any sign of POV. Can anyone suggest better wording that achieves these two goals? Our problem is that COI is a big gray area, so we need to be careful not to over-regulate or else we could discourage participation by people who may be involved in a field. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 15:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the previous version already had sufficient wiggle room, if you really think "common sense edits" need to be mentioned you could just say something like "You should feel free to correct mistaken or out-of-date facts about yourself, such as marital status, current employer, place of birth, and so on." from AUTO. I still don't see why we need "wiggle room" for adding links to your own website. How does saying not to do that discourage "experts" or prevent good faith edits? And I still don't see any reason why anyone would ever need to link to their own website, even once. If a link needs to be added, they can just suggest it on the talk page, and if it's appropriate other editors will add it. --Minderbinder 15:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

What if I want to add an article about myself to a proper category, such as Category:Living people? Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 17:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If it's uncontroversial, nobody would object to you doing it. If it was something potentially controversial or with POV connotations, it would be better to request on the talk page. --Minderbinder 17:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

All POV edits are actually prohibited by official policy, anyways. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. mike4ty4 07:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

But the group of editors, say, my edits have addressed, are those that are not self-promoters, PR drones, or spammers. Can you provide, then, a better route that: a. forbids spam, self-promotion, PR drones, etc. b. allows neutral editing and condones honest attempts to be neutral. The "ideal" guideline should be expected to do both. In my opinion, a true conflict of interest is when someone comes in with an intent to push a POV for themselves, their organization, etc. and starts POV pushing, not unconscious biases that he is willing to shed and work on through practice and cooperation with the community, or simple association with the subject of an article without any malicious intent. Unbiased edits, if they manage to get pulled off, should never be discouraged simply because the person is closely associated with something. The very term "conflict of interest" itself denotes that the person has an interest that conflicts with that of Wikipedia, namely an interest that is counter to Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Interests are conscious and intentional, not unconscious -- ie. they would have deliberate intent to be biased. The people that my argument, and Jehochman's, and others, addresses are not these with such deliberate vanity intentions, but rather those who have no such intentions and want to, and do, edit neutrally. The "pro-ban" advocates seem to keep dancing around this point and focusing only on the obvious, open-and-shut, never-disputed issue of spammers and other ill-intentioned people. Those people are not who my (and others') argument addresses. If you want to make a good case for total banning, then I would suggest you start by providing a substantial and direct answer to this question: Why should we ban people who want to be neutral and try to be neutral? mike4ty4 07:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Mike4ty4, if you haven't already, go spend some time investigating WP:COI/N issues. I think it's a good idea to look at this guideline from the perspective of practice. I agree with you that we need to provide better outlets and clearer instructions so that conflicted editors can still contribute, with proper review, so that unintentional POV doesn't creep into articles. Certainly, some simple edits like erasing spam and reverting vandalism, or correcting obvious errors ("You've got my year of birth wrong!") must always be allowed, but we really need to discourage conflicted editors because, in practice, they tend to create huge messes.

I also made a top to bottom edit, just to improve clarity and reduce redundancy. That chopped 335 characters, though more editing is still possible. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 19:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Personal photos of anonymous people

Is there any policy about pictures of anonymous people being used as examples in articles such as blond? In particular these two pictures:

• Blond profile
• Two blond males

In the second image the persons name is identifiable on a name tag.

It seems like these images violate Wikipedia:Conflict of interest .." self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links in articles, personal or semi-personal photos, or any other material that appears to promote the private or commercial interests of the editor adding the material, or of his associates."

In addition the images may be problematic because of personality rights.[2]

Are there any rules or policies on this? The problem is not unique to blond but also brunette and I imagine many other articles where people can go about placing their mug-shots under the guise of an "example".

I'm running it a real problem with one editor who is strongly pushing the above two pictures and seems to have some sort of sexual attraction and is trying to track down who these people are. How to deal with something like this? Do we need more specific guidelines on using photos of living people, similar to WP:BLP? IMO, non-notable people need to give explicit permission for their photo to be used in a Wikipedia article because the context of its usage can be problematic. You know, suddenly finding your Creative Commons licensed Flicker image up on the Wikipedia article "ugly" might not be so cool. -- Stbalbach 05:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• That doesn't feel like self-promotion to me. They're not really drawing attention to anything (business, website, whatever). So I don't think it's a problem. >Radiant< 13:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• I agree with Radiant! I wouldn't go looking for trouble. If an article needs a picture, and somebody adds one, and it happens to be their friend, no big deal. On the other hand, if somebody removes a perfectly good picture to replace it with one of their friend, or if they added some sort of promotional caption, that would be dickish. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 14:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

AUTO is NOT policy

Hi.

I just saw that a reference to WP:AUTO that I removed, namely the one in the beginning section where it was being called a "policy", was added back in. WP:AUTO is more of a clarification of a specific instance of WP:COI, and it also not a policy. I do not see why it needs to be emphasized so much over any other COI or N guideline so much, and why it keeps getting called a "policy" so consistently. Has there been some promotion of WP:AUTO to official policy? If so, should WP:COI become one too? And should we change the guideline tag on WP:AUTO to an official-policy tag to reflect this apparent policy-ness? I would have changed it back again, but I'm not going to start an edit war over it, I'd rather discuss things instead. mike4ty4 00:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoops! Just examined the revert. "And guidelines" was added, so I guess it's better. But I'm still curious as to why WP:AUTO is emphasized so much. mike4ty4 00:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Because people have a tendency to write articles about themselves, and in general they shouldn't. >Radiant< 09:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is also not advisable to write about any conflict of interest without consensus, period. mike4ty4 07:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello I want to ask something, can we make articles in some other languague like spanish? thanks!

Conflict of interest related additions

I'm currently involved in a polite disagreement over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#DermAtlas, and I'd welcome feedback from this community.--Hu12 02:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

That discussion is currently located at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam/2007 Archive Apr#DermAtlas. — Athænara ✉ 03:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict with WP:BLP

I've complained about this before in Wikipedia_talk:Autobiography, but after someone mentioned it on wikien, and I checked, it turns out this page is even worse.

We expect that people *should* be able to edit articles about themselves for BLP considerations. This guideline states in such strong terms that users are discouraged from doing so, that any newcomer who reads it will conclude that such things are prohibited. A newcomer isn't going to know the difference between "strongly discouraged", "is considered a standard that all users should follow", "avoid or exercise great caution", etc. and an actual prohibition; the fact that the article literally speaking doesn't prohibit such editing and instead just really really steers users away from it, won't make any practical difference.

This *needs* to be fixed. This guideline as it is goes completely against BLP. Ken Arromdee 23:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Typical problem

User Startcom has consideral amount of Edits to StartCom related articles (see users contributions for detail). At what point is is this acceptable? --Hu12 00:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/StartCom (I know you know this, Hu12, but other editors who follow this page may not). — Athænara ✉ 23:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

A new essay as a Further reading link?

Per Jehochman's comments here[3] about the new essay User:Durova/The dark side I'll suggest adding to the list of Further reading links over here.

I specialize in complex investigations and have been concerned not only by the quantity of attempts to manipulate this site but also by mainstream publications outside Wikipedia that advocate site policy violations in pursuit of ideological or profit motive editing. The current links from this page explain and encourage the right way to participate but don't focus much on the reasons to avoid the other path. Since I authored the essay I'll propose the link here and leave it for others to evaluate. Durova^Charge! 18:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nutshell

Problem: upset people see the guideline and see it as a blanket prohibition on fixing the only thing on the whole project which is right now actively spoiling their lives.

My proposed solution: add a "nutshell" which allows for the correction of unambiguous errors of fact, because that's what they want to do.

Result: Nutshell rewritten to remove that exception and reinforce still further the apparent blanket prohibition on fixing the only thing on the whole project which is right now actively spoiling their lives.

Discuss.

Guy (Help!) 21:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This nutshell is a damn tough assignment! What you placed there was probably a bit too liberal, so I boldly tried something else. Feel free to try again. We need to be careful not to oversimplify this guideline. Every COI editor will say, "But I can be neutral," or "It was just a factual inaccuracy," when in fact they are crossing the line. As for helping people to participate, I have written an essay for Internet marketing types to explain productive ways to work with Wikipedia. Idle hands are the devil's tools, so lets provide an outlet for their energies. See Wikipedia:Search engine optimization. I'd appreciate your comments and edits there. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 21:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps we could also redirect such editors to the talk page? >Radiant< 10:54, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

I just rewrote this guideline. The main thing I did was to trim the fat, including sections which were redundant to other policies and guidelines (discussion about deletion, for example) and some sections which were inappropriate to include (one section which bordered on giving legal advice).

I've given a tighter structure to the lists of situations in which conflicts of interest arise, and I've also included a generic definition of conflict of interest (interest v duty) in the lede and again throughout to reinforce that that is the test for when there is a conflict, and not whether the situation appears in the list.

I've also clarified some of the ambiguity in operation. The position before was contradictory and hovered between a complete prohibition on editing wherever there might be a conflict on the one hand, and "edit if you think you can do it neutrally" on the other. I've made it more strict: you are always discouraged from editing when you have a conflict unless an exception applies. Those are BLP edits, and edits with consensus.

Related to this last point, I've also emphasised what people are encouraged to do instead of editing when they have a conflict, namely, that they should seek community input.

Your comments are invited. --bainer (talk) 16:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe also post links to the proposed changes where appropriate, e.g., WP:COIN or the policy section of the village pump. I think your material is better written than the original, but the changes are extensive enough that there should be a community consensus for their adoption. Raymond Arritt 16:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly a clear improvement, and the greater conciseness welcome. I think the policy is , or should be, more careful and discriminating than as stated. Objective reporting is possible regardless of COI. There is a risk of inaccuracy, and therefore material that might represent COI must be supported particularly well by independent reliable sources. I therefore think that some version of the previous statement that COI must be declared would be appropriate. It is undisclosed COI that represents the danger to WP. articles written by the subject can be judged accordingly--stringently, but with the realization tat some self-assertions of notability will be true. DGG 05:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the general feeling is that people really shouldn't edit at all when they have a conflict of interest, despite what is said about exercising caution and being careful to follow policy and so forth. But this needs to be substituted for something; it's not good enough just to tell people they can't edit. This is why I've tried to put emphasis on the things people are encouraged to do instead.

I decided to cut the section about disclosing conflicts partly because it's essentially implicit in the idea of seeking community input on material, and partly because of some old discussion about the section which resulted in the "neutral" stance it took, presenting pros and cons without advocating anything. Someone also mentioned that principles of disclosure have been much better discussed outside of Wikipedia and I'd like to research those before developing a section on disclosure. --bainer (talk) 10:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an attitude I often take issue with. If the person wants to make an honest effort to be neutral, why should they be punished or forced not to edit? <sighs> more of the problems with the WP community... The source of an edit does not automatically mean the edit benefits/harms the encyclopedia. 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I've spent a bit of time on WP:COI/N lately. Very few self-written articles are done well. I think we need to provide people with better outlets when they have the energy to write an article about themselves, their company or their client. For existing articles, COI affected editors can post to the talk page. For new articles, they can start in their own user space, and then find an experienced editor to check the article, edit as necessary, and copy to the main space.Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 08:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's to this end that I've tried to emphasise in the rewrite that people's contributions are welcome even when they have a conflict of interest as long as they gain approval/input about them from the community first. This seems to be the best approach distilled from pieces of the old version, from discussions on this talk page and its archives and from general Wikipedia principles.

It may be better to emphasise this more, particularly ways for creating new articles. --bainer (talk) 10:00, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The rewrite certainly trims some of the fat, but some of the crucial bits read like legalese now:

A conflict of interest occurs when your interests, or the interests of those that you represent, conflict or potentially conflict with your duties or obligations. A Wikipedia conflict of interest occurs when your interests in editing Wikipedia, or the interests of those that you represent, conflict or potentially conflict with your obligations as an editor to abide by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, particularly the neutral point of view policy.

I though the original definiton para was clearer and far more concrete.

A Wikipedia conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia, to produce a neutral encyclopedia, and the aims of individual editors. These include editing for the sake of promoting oneself, other individuals, causes, organizations, companies, or products, as well as suppressing negative information, and criticizing competitors.

I'm not so sure about including "causes". It's difficult to apply a COI sticker unless it's a specific and provable close business or personal interest. On the WP:COI there have been plenty of cases where COI looks highly likely - say, proponents (or antagonists) of culty religions - but all you can do is watch out for breaches of WP:NPOV. Tearlach 11:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you about the orginal paragraph being better. On the "causes" front I'm very much in favor of keeping it in. The charity/nonprofit articles are rife with promotional editing by people who are just editing to mention their favorite mission-driven organization, and it results in crufty articles that fail to provide balanced and critical appraisal of their subjects. Cause-based editing is just as susceptible to COI as business or vanity, and our readers deserve articles in those areas that are as good as articles in other areas. -- Siobhan Hansa 18:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

However, the why nix someone for simply having a "close relationship" to the subject? This first paragraph seems to suggest they must have an "interest" that conflicts with WP, ie. that they must actively want to edit non-neutrally and therefore someone who wants to edit neutrally instead but still has a close relationship should not be banned from editing (because their "interests" or wants would be in agreement with WP -- they'd want neutrality.). 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thebrainer, it may make sense to create an essay somewhere that explains to people how to gather up the info about an article they'd like, even one about themselves, post this info to their user space, and then go get it reviewed by somebody independent who can provide advice and potentially post the material to main space if suitable. We can diffuse a lot of sneaky editing if we provide a proper channel. This doens't really exist today for new articles. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 19:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to offer a non-prescriptive option. I don't think the current system haws much teeth, unless editors have blatantly broken guidelines such as civility and NPOV. Personally, I'd like to see WP:COI as a policy rather than a guideline: since Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard started up, infringing editors have rapidly got wise to the idea that nothing much is going to happen if they break it. You get a lot of responses to the tune of "I hear what you say but it doesn't apply to me because ... fill in the excuse") Tearlach 23:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

And if they do not break the NPOV Policy (not a "guideline", it's a policy, and a very fundamental one at that.). 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

(reset massive indent) I've been using Template:uw-coi which is an official warning, combined with a prodwarning or AfD, and that seems to work pretty well. The policy seems to have enough teeth, because the perp is almost always breaking other policies in addition to COI. We do need more investigators for WP:COI/N. That's the bottleneck. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 01:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem though is that there does not appear to be harm caused to Wikipedia if they do not break the important content policies, including NPOV. 74.38.33.68 23:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. However, the warning assumes good faith and helps inform the user about the risk of COI. This is better than allowing an oblivious editor to embarrass themselves and start content disputes. Jehochman (^Talk/_Contrib) 23:15, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

See above under Nutshell.

Both the old and new versions of the guideline basically tell anyone who sees false information in an article about himself that he cannot remove it. A person in such a situation is likely to be a new user, and won't figure out that it's carefully worded so that he actually can edit if he keeps it neutral. The guideline discourages people from editing their article so strongly that it appears to a new user to be a complete ban. Ken Arromdee 14:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

be honest or spill the WP:BEANS?

Anonymity and pseudonymity are common and encouraged on Wikipedia; someone with a conflict of interest and poor integrity can easily exploit this. Suppose the congressional staffers of unhappy memory had created accounts? (Actually, who can say some of them didn't?) They'd have been indistinguishable from average election-year partisan editors. Or what if Adam Curry had done his meddling under a pseudonym? And suppose one of these people had squawked about outing when someone tried to reveal their conflicts of interest.

This sort of thing has happened before and will certainly happen again, but I've stuck to hypothetical situations here since this is about general principles rather than specific cases. Right now it seems that there's no effective way to deal with such a problem, and having a guideline discouraging editing with a COI rewards those who disregard it and hide the fact that they're doing so. Should the page be forthright about this ("Editors with a conflict of interest can choose not to reveal it or to actively conceal it. While this behavior is unethical. . ." and so forth), or would that be spilling the WP:BEANS? —Charles P._(Mirv) 14:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think if someone has a conflict of interest, they should spill their own beans that, at least, they are acquainted with the person whose bio they are creatiubng or editing. I'll do that, too. Point taken. Bearian 14:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest Inquiry

I run a philosophy club at my school, and I'd like to create a WikiPedia page for it. We have recently been getting a good deal of media attention (including, for instance, Fox News), and I'd like for those interested in the club to be able to look us up up WikiPedia.

Although our stand on various philosophical issues can be expounded upon, I'd stick to the basics and describe more so what the club is about, what it does, etc.

If anything, I'm concerned that because our views on a number of popular topics are rather controversial, the page would get vandalized, but so long as editors remained objective, I'm happy to leave it to the consensus.

Please let me know what you think!

ArthurLZ 23:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Short answer. Don't. WAS 4.250 15:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Academic Citation Farming

I wonder if the policy could be written so that clear citation farming attempts by academics are prohibited. While many of these individuals have a lot to contribute to the project, I've also run into a great many who seem primarily interested in adding links to their own work to a wide variety of articles. Academics have a clear private interest in doing this because promotions are often distributed on the basis of the number of times one's work has been cited by others. For recent examples see Special:Contributions/162.84.241.54 and Special:Contributions/Davidellerman. --Beaker342 20:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Another example: Kellym133 (talk · contribs). — Athænara ✉ 22:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I doubt that anyone's application for tenure is going to be affected by how often their writings are cited on Wikipedia, since it's not a peer-reviewed journal or academic press. If the work is worth reading and relevant to the article, then I don't see any problem with the author adding it—anyone else doing the same would meet with no objection. (If it's crackpottery, or if they spam it where it's not relevant, or actively remove citations to other authors, then we have a problem.) Maybe there are egotistical motives at work, but if the encyclopedia gains thereby. . . —Charles P._(Mirv) 01:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand what I was saying. Spamming articles with citations of your own work makes it more likely that others will happen upon the citation and use it in their own peer-reviewed work. COI as it stands seems to prohibit this: "Be careful about excessive citation of your own work, to avoid the appearance of self-promotion." I just wish it were stated more clearly in the guideline. --Beaker342 01:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think our approach to spam amounts to whack-a-mole. Rather than relying on our large number of users to deter a large number of people who spam, wouldn't it make more sense to automate this? It shouldn't be very hard to write a bot that would look for user accounts that add lots of external links to the same web site, without adding much content. These histories could be flagged for review, similar to the way AlexBot identifies probably COI articles and lists them on WP:COI/N. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 11:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

re Beaker342: If people are using Wikipedia in their academic research, then yes, this could be a problem. Why they would be using Wikipedia when they have the far superior resources of the average university library at their disposal, I do not know. —Charles P._(Mirv) 03:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I assure you that academics use Wikipedia, just like everyone else. JSTOR is crap for quick and dirty summaries.--Beaker342 04:24, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention coverage of very recent topics or subjects outside mainstream academia. --ElKevbo 04:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

re quick and dirty summaries—fine, but if one is preparing a work that's going to be peer-reviewed, Wikipedia's articles are almost always going to be inferior to library catalogs, various academic databases, etc. re very recent topics or subjects outside mainstream academia—if a subject fits either of these categories, there won't be much academic literature about it anyway. I still think the current wording is fine: do it if your work is relevant and reliable; don't do it excessively; when in doubt, ask disinterested parties. I might add "don't list your work as a reference unless it was actually used as such", but that could be excessive instruction creep. —Charles P._(Mirv) 15:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Warning about indefinite blocks

I have added a warning about indefinite block being a possible outcome when single-purpose COI accounts continue to self-promote after being warned. Here's the argument as to why this isn't a change in policy, just a clarification.

Arguably, this already fits within WP:BLOCK#Indefinite_blocks: Inappropriate usernames, policy-breaching sockpuppets, and single-purpose abusive accounts that have not made significant constructive edits can be indefinitely blocked on sight, and should be noted in the block summary. Is not single purpose violation of COI, WP:SPAM, WP:ADVERT, and WP:AUTO abusive of Wikipedia, its volunteers, and its readership? Durova^Charge! 16:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If you do not understand the need for this clarification, I suggest you help us clear the backlog at WP:COIN so you can see what's going on first hand. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 11:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We should really talk about this longer before adding it. Like I said, it could have a serious impact in content disputes. To continue our discussion on WP:AN, many times partisan or religious editors will be involved in content disputes on articles about their organisation. Should Catholic Church only be editable by non-Catholics? Wouldn't this result in systemic bias against Catholics in that article? Does it make a difference if it is a mainstream organisation like the Catholic Church, or a minority one like the Alliance for Green Socialism? Do we really want people in content disputes trying to get each other blocked for COI violations rather than working together to try to write a neutral article? — Armed Blowfish (mail) 12:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The discussion at Blocking Policy is specifically restricted to the promotion of "a person, company, product, or service" by single purpose accounts, as in spamming, so it would not apply to the generic NPOV issues you raise above. Crum375 13:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to "a person", there could be WP:BLP issues involved. As for companies, products, and services, conflicts of interest might be of the monetary variety, rather than real points of view. This conversation seems to be rather spread out. — Armed Blowfish (mail) 13:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

• Sometimes vested-interest accounts are simply subjects upset by a biased or even defamatory article. They don't know how wikipedia works, so they simply blank the page or replace it with corporate blurb. Such accounts are often highly annoying, but should on no account be blocked. Stop and ask 'why is the subject so upset'? Is it just that they want to turn the article into an advert - or do they have a justifiable complaint that the article is far from NPOV? --Doc^g 13:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed text
Users who appear to have no purpose other than to promote themselves or their own interests should be warned and listed at the conflict of interest notice board. Those who continue to use Wikipedia for blatant self-promotion after being warned may be blocked indefinitely.

Doc, I don't think the type of user you describe should be covered by this statement. Clueless newcomers usually respond to comments or warnings. Certainly we should try to engage and convert them into productive Wikipedians. We are trying to clarify the right way to deal with users who don't respond, delete their warnings and continue adding self-promotional spam for as long as they can get away with it. These users already qualify under Durova's citation supra as abusive single-purpose accounts that should receive an indefinite blocking under existing policy. We just want to make this clear so admins aren't hesitating to nuke these accounts. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 15:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Just be very careful. You say "we should try to engage and convert them into productive Wikipedians" - not so. Some of the people we are speaking about have no desire to be wikipedians, no desire to learn our rules or work through our processes - why should they? All they want is for a biased, or scurrilous article to be removed or fixed. We shouldn't be warning them or blocking them at all. Perhaps the best thing to say is "before assuming a conflict of interest - look at both the article and the user's activities very carefully - make sure that the article is utterly and transparently NPOV, verifiable, balanced and fair - if there's any doubt about that, and I mean any, then the priority is to fix the article and patrol it against any negative pov pushers - not to deal with the angry subject." It is more important that we remove problematic content, than we remove problematic users. I'm afraid I'm quite jumpy about this whole direction; it might just encourage folk to block people for continually replacing an article with a spam ad, without stopping to ask why the 'spammer' so objects to the old article.--Doc^g 15:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We should be extremely generous to COI accounts about pointing out WP policies and procedures. If they then show that they aren't interested we should show them the door. This may mean we deal with "bad" behavior for a little while longer than your average vandal. SchmuckyTheCat 15:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Some COIs have no interest in WP policies - they are simply objecting to biased articles. Sort the article first - double check it - and ask the COI account what they object to. AGF at all times. (see above for my reasons).--Doc^g 15:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I think if you look at some recent cases at the COI noticeboard you'll see AGF in action. The problem this policy clarification would address is those editors who don't respond at all when the COI is pointed out, or engage in Wikilawyer chit-chat while continuing to make flagrant COI postings. The problem of unresponsive COI editors, and the difficulty of getting attention for COI issues at WP:AN/I, is mentioned in a thread at Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard#Refusal to cooperate. EdJohnston 16:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Fine - but can we place in big bold letters somewhere: "Please check the article is scrupulously NPOV, balanced, and properly verified before throwing the book at someone who is reverting to their spammy version. As much as they may be appearing obnoxious, breaking the house-rules, or replacing the article with blatant advertising, it is possible the subject may have no real interest in wikipedia other than to remove biased or defamatory material. If that is the case, they should not have to turn into good little wikipedians before we apologise to them, and clean up the article to our highest standards."--Doc^g 16:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"Scrupulously" might be a bit much, but mostly I think you are right. That said, I am more concerned about articles about individual people than ones about companies. But when it comes to things where living people could be affected, it's better to err on the side of being biased in the positive direction than being biased in the negative direction. — Armed Blowfish (mail) 16:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:Grief essay (denial, anger, bargaining, etc.) applies as well to the rapidly increasing varieties of COI editors and single purpose accounts. — Athænara ✉ 23:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How about this?

Proposed text
Accounts used solely for abusing Wikipedia may be blocked indefinitely, as explained in Wikipedia:Blocking policy. Blatant self-promotion qualifies as abuse.

It is shorter, and cleaner, and avoids instruction creep. Wikipedia:Blocking policy already contains the necessary language. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 02:04, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That works for me. Admins already block spam-only accounts all the time, that's not even anything new. --Minderbinder 12:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict with policies against revealing personal information

This has no teeth if users are not allowed to reveal what they know or suspect someone's real-life identity to be. I suggest deletion of the COI policy. --Random832 02:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Clarification. I don't think that, while following these other policies, that we can fairly distinguish between self-promotion and promotion by others, nor should we. If material would be acceptable if added by someone known not to be the subject of the article, we MUST accept it even if added by the subject. If it would not be acceptable if added by the subject, it should be unacceptable added by anyone. This is especially true since we are forbidden to speculate that the user adding it is the subject. --Random832 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes you have to reveal your own COI. Bearian 14:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Often we see usernames that match the name of the product being promoted. That's a dead give away. Sometimes users volunteer their identity. Sometimes users edit only one single article and behave like they own it. There are lots of ways people reveal COI. We don't ever "out" people. We simply listen to what they tell us and judge them by their edits. Please consider helping clear the backlog at WP:COIN by investigating some of the cases. That exercise will help you understand what's going on in the trenches. Please come back and let us know what you think.Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 14:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why it should matter who's editing. The fact that it's possible for someone to exercise "their right to edit anonymously" thus immunizing themselves against any attempt to point out a conflict of interest, means we shouldn't be persecuting those who _do_ choose to be honest about it. If they can contribute constructively, let them, if they can't, block them. Same as anyone who doesn't have a conflict of interest --Random832 00:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That's right. Actions, not prejudice, are the final arbiter of how good a contributor someone is. mike4ty4 03:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that Random832 is making a very good point. If the content one adds is inappropriate, it doesn't matter who the user is. And if it's appropriate, then who he/she is doesn't matter either. --Shyranoe 08:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it matters (to pick a hypothetical example) whether Tommy Popstar is edited by Tommy himself, by his publicist, or his "number one fan". The sort of edits done are likely to be the same. Arguably this guideline is nothing but a repackaging of other stuff (NPOV, verifiability, even BLP) in a way which is readily understood by someone who, one suspects, is too close to the subject. As such it shouldn't be making policy, just presenting it. Notinasnaid 13:06, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

(Further) the great majority of cases where this is applicable are for people who arrive with good faith, but without a detailed knowledge of the aims of the project. (Who does arrive with them?) This means that in many cases they "out" themselves. If they don't, it would be quite inappropriate to expose them or accuse people directly or indirectly, though it is OK to ask, I feel, or to state messages in a neutral "If you should be ... then ...". But in the end, the edits speak for themselves. However, is someone denies COI, then there is no point arguing, or referring these guidelines to them, but there are planty of others. Enthusiasm is often indistinguishable from COI. 13:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

What way has this page been going?

See my comment here, please. It's not long and the second part is about this page. --Shyranoe 14:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest requires intention?

Hi.

I saw this:

"Anyone who prioritizes outside interests over the interests of the project may be subject to a conflict of interest."

Doe this mean that if one does not prioritize such interest, then they can be very close to the subject and yet still not worry about editing it? If not, then should this be changed? mike4ty4 04:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

We want avoid instruction creep. People are expected to apply common sense. Some ambiguity in this guideline may be intentional. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 12:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Ambiguity only serves to create lawyering, confusion, and other detrimental things. Terms need to be defined precisely. This does not mean long, exhaustive lists of bureaucratic criteria, however. mike4ty4 20:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

About the usage of the word "we"

Wikipedia guidelines are something which everyone can (at least in theory) improve. They also apply to everyone (mostly). If the word "we" was used, it should refer to everyone. Like this: "When we edit Wikipedia, we should put the interests of the encyclopedia first." But if you put it like "We think that you should" you are creating two parties. There would be "we" and then there would be "you". Who is we and who is you? I find it very unclear. --Shyranoe 19:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Jehochman, I didn't notice your message up there. You said: "we" refers to us, the Wikipedia community, and "you" refers to the editor reading the guideline. One of the problems is, that they are often the same person... --Shyranoe 19:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Or do you think there exists some perfect Wikipedia community, whose members never have to read any guidelines and never make any mistakes :) ? --Shyranoe 19:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

(Time order is unusual because I moved two comments to the more appropriate thread. EdJohnston 19:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC) )

A choice--passive or active voice

Hi, if am not sure what you are up to, but you've now twice changed this article from active to passive voice. There's no reason to do that, in my opinion. I'm not the world's greatest writer, but I have a copy of Strunk and White sitting here on my desk. It says that active voice is preferred, and that passive voice should not be overused. In this guideline, the word "we" refers to us, the Wikipedia community, and "you" refers to the editor reading the guideline. We can hardly be more clear. Wikipedia:Weasel words applies to guidelines just as much as articles. Before trying your changes again, why don't we get some other opinions? Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 19:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I too own a copy of Strunk and White and I agree with Jehochman that we should prefer active voice. I see no problem with the use of 'we' because it's obvious who that is, the Wikipedia community. If we write a set of guidelines in the active voice it should sound less bureaucratic and more direct. EdJohnston 19:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi! I disagree with you. I think it sounds a bit unfriendly to new users and to those who can't feel that they are part of this "we". It sound's like there was "we" who are giving orders to "you". --Shyranoe 19:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

This is one sentence which I find unclear: "As Wikipedians and encyclopedists, we put the interests of the encyclopedia first." Who belongs to this group of perfect Wikipedians? How big is it? I have known Wikipedians who have been active for years and who seem to have a conflict of interest, or are otherwise not always behaving very well (not refering to anyone around this page!) Should the impression given to new users be, that everyone already here are "perfect encyclopedists", and only new users need to learn? --Shyranoe 20:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. Check my edit. Does that sound more friendly and inclusive? Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 20:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think the sentence is better. Maybe the "we" there can refer to anyone acting that way. I still find other "we"s in the article not very good, though. --Shyranoe 20:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's look at those other sentences. We want everyone to feel like part of the team. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 23:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

(The next conversation was before this.) Would it be possible to take "you" out of the same sentences where there is "we"? Then it would sound more like everyone are expected to follow the same instruction. It's already that way in some sentences, for example "because of this, we strongly discourage editing when...". --Shyranoe 10:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi again! I find it nice that you are at least ready to think about it with me. I went through the page more carefully and also some older versions. It is very difficult for me to suggest how to change only those particular sentences (if the passive voice won't do), because I think there is so much more that would need to be fixed.

This page is going into highly personal issues. Even the old version "Vanity guidelines" is a bit personal, but not as much as this one. There clearly has been trouble with these matters, as it stands in some old versions: "Wikipedia has had serious problems from people who feel they have been accused of being "vanity authors" in a deletion debate." Could one reason for these problems be, that it is already personal to call someone a "vanity author"? Shouldn't all the accusations be about content or actions, never to call the author with any names? Doesn't this apply also to administrators? I feel that this can't be solved by accusing that someone has a COI. It's still personal... it's about who the person is.

Why not to write this page to be more about content? If I wrote this, I would start with only content issues. After that I would move into an assume good faith theme. And then there could be a part with advices to those who have edited or plan to edit articles related to something close to them. Much of the material which is now in the beginning of the page could be there, formulated in some suitable way. I don't think the weight of this page would have to suffer. --Shyranoe 18:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you write an essay about this topic in your user space, and then we can either reference it from the guideline, or we can incorporate whole sections, if there is a consensus to do so. You may find it easier to write a complete piece than to try to patch up this one. (Here's an essay I wrote: [[4]]. It's in Wikipedia space because I want others to edit it.) Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 18:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you exactly mean with an essay? To write my opinions about this matter or to write a suggestion how this page could be like? --Shyranoe 18:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Essay. I think you could write your opinions on COI. A carefully written essay can be a good way explain proposed changes. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 19:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll think about it. It might be more useful to write a suggestion for the page. There is one reason why I wouldn't like to write an essay. I don't especially enjoy stating opinions which might make some people feel that I wouldn't appreciate their work here. I do, but I had to bring out some opinions because I thought they were important. I would rather do something constructive than to keep criticizing. But this is a very difficult page to write, I have no idea if I can come up with a good suggestion. --Shyranoe 19:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

A question

Isn't there anyone watching this page who would like to try to work out a new suggestion with me? It doesn't have to be exactly as I proposed. We could try to include all or almost all material currently on the page (or not, depending how it will seem best), but also make some changes. --Shyranoe 20:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You don't understand the point of the COI guideline, so your attempts to change it are misguided. While this guideline has its roots in NPOV, "content" is not its focus. Its focus is "conflict of interest" which is about state of mind. WAS 4.250 01:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, WAS 4.250. Let's take it easy on the newcomer. Shyranoe, I encourage you to write a paragraph or two about your feelings and let us look at it. I think your ideas are valid. Whether they belong here or somewhere else in Wikipedia is an open question, but we can't know for sure until you reduce them to written form. I agree with WAS 4.250 that this guideline is about trust and motivation, not just the written substance. Wikipedia needs to keep COI motivated point of view from wrecking articles. If you go to WP:COIN, you can see some COI cases in action. You can even help with the investigations. That's an excellent way to develop a more complete understanding of the problem and possible solutions. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 03:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I will go there and try to learn more about this. WAS 4.250: I believe that you are right, I don't understand the meaning of this guideline well enough. I didn't mind you saying that, quite the opposite, it might help the conversation on. I have to try to converse, how else am I going to start to understand this? I find this guideline confusing and I think it should be improved somehow, but it is difficult to make suggestions without knowing as much as possible. You said that you understand it as being about a state of mind. This is what I find confusing: It states on the page, that you can report incidents related to this guideline. So Wikipedians are to report each other's wrong states of mind? I think that these two things should be separated:

• What kind of edit contents are not appropriate (I see that this should be the one reported)
• Advices related to personal matters like a state of mind, relationships, commitments or religion

I think that both are important, but the problem is that they get mixed up. Jehochman: You said that this is about trust and motivation. They are highly important issues. I tried to read the page imagining that it was an advice, and it sounded much better. But at the moment it doesn't sound like an advice, but more like a rule set by someone who is charging people's personal matters. --Shyranoe 12:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to clarify. We aren't opposed to dog lovers working on dog articles. Nor are we opposed to climatologists working on global warming articles. We are opposed to a dog breeder writing an article about his own business. We are opposed to an anti-global-warming-theory politico linking to his own website. COI requires both POV and some sort of unwholesome motivation that undermines trust. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 14:52, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

If an article is bad it could be deleted, if a user keeps putting in disruptive material he/she could be banned. Are personal accusations going to create trust in Wikipedia? With almost the same material which is now on the page it might be possible to write an encouraging and trust creating page. Many of the new users who appear to have COI might have good intentions, but they are making mistakes. They might use some friendly advices. If they are directed here as this page is now, they are going to feel unwelcome and an outsider... --Shyranoe 17:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Please write an essay so that we may suggest "Please read WP:COI and User:Shyranoe/COI Essay". WAS 4.250 18:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, already two people are telling me to write an essay, so I will have to consider it. But my aim is not that you will say: "Please read WP:COI and User:Shyranoe/COI Essay". My aim is that my essay, if there is going to be one, will make itself useless and can then be destroyed. I am aiming at having some change on WP:COI page. I would rather do it without an essay, but I am uncertain how to proceed. --Shyranoe 18:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

What does conflict of interest actually come from?

Hi.

I've noticed a few quirks with this guideline, specifically about what causes conflict of interest. For one, does conflict of interest require intent on the part of the editor to be biased/create vanity/etc., or is it simply something that exists from a "sufficiently close" relationship to the subject of an article? Ther are things in the guideline that suggest one way and then the other. In the opener the term is defined as an incompatibility between WP's policies of NPOV and the "aims" of an editor. This suggests intent right there. But in other parts it simply says about a close relationship is all that is needed to activate the guideline and nothing about intent. What gives? mike4ty4 20:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

In straightforward cases I don't see a problem. 'I want to post my CV here to get employment'. Wikipedia is not interested in finding people jobs: this triggers COI, if an editor is thinking that way. Theoretically you can have the discussion 'but I thought encyclopedias printed CVs', but that's not of any consequence. In other words, if people use ignorance about Wikipedia as a defence, and say they didn't intend to infringe the guideline, that's not really an issue with the guideline. The COI guideline can be pointed out, in combination with WP:NOT or something, and that will explain in some cases not only why an article is going to AfD, but should not have been created in the first place. So for example if an editor was aiming to promote a product here, and wasn't intending to break policy, it changes little. Charles Matthews 19:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Bias in the other direction

Hi.

Could not a "conflict of interest" scenario also arise where the afflicted editor is instead trying to disparage their organization 'cause they hate it, etc. instead of promoting it? For example, adding incredibly undue amounts of weight to even the slightest criticism, bloating criticism sections to massive proportions, and overall casting the thing in a negative light. This would still be a neutrality violation, and if the person comes in with this intention, then I would still say that a conflict of interest would exist. For example, say a disgruntled Microsoft employee were to come in and try editing the Microsoft article to add more criticism than is due, or otherwise put a negative spin on the article. This is not impossible. Why isn't the "other" direction of bias considered in this guideline? mike4ty4 20:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

POV editing is never acceptable, and 'undue weight' falls under that. To some extent all activism can be considered to fall under the 'Campaigning' section. Charles Matthews 19:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for the page

I started writing an essay, but then I got an idea and worked out a suggestion for this page. See it here, please. I know it's not perfect, and you are very welcome to edit it. See how I'm defining the wrong type of content without a mention of some particular user's intentions. This way the guideline could be applied without making any personal accusation. --Shyranoe 12:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I made two corrections to User:Shyranoe/Conflict of interest material. Perhaps you and Mike# above might care to view them. WAS 4.250 13:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand what you mean, and I don't think it's wrong to have talk about a state of mind. But this is a guideline with a noticeboard, and people need to report the incidents. How can you report someone's "wrong state of mind" without making a personal attack? Sounds quite personal to me... it's very confusing. I had to revert your edits because they were not what I am suggesting. --Shyranoe 13:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not a personal attack to say to someone "I think that you are too close to the subject to fairly evaluate content on this article due to [this] and [this] so please restrict yourself to commenting on the talk page. Thanks." WAS 4.250 14:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

WAS 4.250: When you talk about this: "unconcious biases with regard to a subject (some not even for or against, just too close to the subject to see the issues in a balanced way." I think that this is not a conflict of interest, but POV. Everyone has some POV, if you think you don't have it, that's really POV :). And according to COI guideline POV questions should be handled separately from it. --Shyranoe 13:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

COI is one type of POV. The COI type of POV is a specific problem handled by this guideline. WAS 4.250 14:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

This isn't getting any clearer. Once someone says "you are too biased", there is sometimes no end of personal fighting. It creates hostility. If I saw someone putting in too biased content, I don't want to say: "You have COI". I want to say: "You are putting in wrong type of content, I'm going to report that." --Shyranoe 15:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. WAS 4.250 21:43, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"I am concerned that you may be too close to the subject to write about it from a neutral point of view. Please check WP:COI and see if this may be the case. Thank you." There are endless ways to raise this concern politely. I do it all the time, and am successfull 99% of the time. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 15:52, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have "authority" in the eyes of the users I'm dealing with. If I told someone to read COI, it would be taken personally. I wouldn't do that or report anyone. Even if I believe someone has COI it's too difficult to prove and he/she can always claim otherwise. --Shyranoe 19:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Jehochman: Not related to this, but can you look at my new suggestion under the title "about the usage of the word 'we' " please? You can find it in my latest edit. --Shyranoe 19:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I made a mistake. I tried to edit this one and the edit summary was left out. I was trying to say: You are probably going to revert this, but I will try to modify these sentences a little. --Shyranoe 17:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with this guideline

We know Wikipedia is edited by fans, whose POV can be very strong, yet nobody ever It is rather bizzare that we allow users to offer monetary awards on Wikipedia:Reward board (or Wikimedia Fundation itself profit from similiar arrangement at Wikipedia:Bounty board, but the idea of editor-for-hire generated so much controversy.

With Wikipedia popularity skyrocketing, COI situations will arise more and more often. By discouraging and/or forbidding them, we are simly forcing some editors to edit 'in secrecy', denying ther COIs, or preventing Wikipedia from gaining valuable articles (note that many COI articles are fine from the start, and many others are quickly brought up to standards by the community - this is why Template:Advertisement is not the same as Template:Db-spam. Consider the mentioned 'editor-for-hire': he has created many articles which were kept and are apparently noncontroversial: Zale Corporation, KidsHealth, KOHS-FM, seriously suggested that being interested in something should keep one away from editing relevant articles. Yet we assume that all people who have a professional or family relationship to the subject are beyond hope and should avoid editing the articles. There are no reasons for those double standards. Instead of discouraging such editors from contributing, we should simply ask them to ask for a neutrality review at WP:RC or COI noticeboard.

Resorts Atlantic City... sure, some will be controversial and deleted (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Norman Technologies), but others won't (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Converium Holding AG).

Bottom line is that while users with possible CoI should be asked to sumbit their articles for review, and while we should pay special attention to finding and reviewing such articles, there is no need to discourage editors from contributing to Wikipedia on basis of who they are / where they work / who are they related to / what do they like, as long as they try to respect our policies.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Check his entry in List of banned users if you think the example of User:MyWikiBiz is worthy of emulation. EdJohnston 00:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Piotrus and have softened my own approach to citing this guideline. I image the phrase you should avoid or exercise great caution when... will see further discussion and move more toward simply excercise great caution.. . Ideally editors will even list their biases on their user pages ;).. I would recommend against applying this guideline with excessive force, as with anything. ∴ here…♠ 03:00, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It is wrong that we assume that all people who have a professional or family relationship to the subject are beyond hope. We do assume, rightly, that most such people may have no idea what they are getting into, in editing WP in areas close to them. So the correct advice is not to start editing. Because most people, in real life, will not have met anything like an edit war, and are not prepared for what it will do to them. Charles Matthews 10:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is a good idea to give advices. I also know that there are "advertisers", which I don't like. But I disagree with something else. This page gives the impression that being involved would make you a "bad guy" (and your edits less valuable?). That is just one possible perspective, a too simple one and not always right (am I misunderstanding when I feel it's the perspective of this guideline?).

I have helped to write a page of a rare subject which I'm not involved myself. At the time I entered editing, there were insults going back and forth on the talk page. Among the editors there was one who was personally involved with the subject, and he/she was behaving well. He/she rarely edit fought, never insulted anyone, made good suggestions, and most of the good material on the page was written by him/her. Then there were two editors not personally involved, one being in favor of the subject, the other one against it. They kept putting in original research with poor or no sources and edit fighting constantly...

I don't want to say it's always like that. I know it's not. But I believe that one of the big challenges of Wikipedia is how can people with different perspectives and thinking write together. It's not always the case that the "outsider" is somehow the "good guy", because many people have prejudices for things they know little about. --Shyranoe 14:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, but I should also point out that some of our worst disputes - ones that cannot ever be resolved by reasonable discussion - continue only because of COI. Serious conflict of interest makes dispute resolution impossible. Charles Matthews 14:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I can believe there are disputes that cannot be solved by reasonable discussion. I guess those users are banned then? I wonder why they can't be banned because of their wrong kind of edits (they are doing such, right?). Or if it is necessary to charge their "wrong state of mind" and ban them for that, maybe this guideline could still be written to have a little wider perspective? It has a lot of good material, but somehow it sounds like directed against involved people, and some of them can be good editors, and some really try. For example this is one part that doesn't sound very good to me: "If editors on talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest, consider withdrawing from editing the article, ... " So anyone can suggest on talk page that someone else has a conflict of interest, and then this someone should consider withdrawing? If the "anyone" here is a very wise person, then there might be no problem. But what if he/she is not? --Shyranoe 14:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Typically the remedy for COI is a topical ban: you are banned from all edits on some area of articles. In the end, the ArbCom can and does do this. But the problem is too big. Say there are 2000 universities in the USA; say they all employ at least one person to do public relations; say thay have all heard of Wikipedia by now. We do not want articles on educational establishments to read like publicity material. So we have a guideline to show to the PR people: just don't start. Tell your employer that it's against the rules of the site.

It is not OK to cite COI to win an argument over content, unless the interest is already declared. Why do people declare interests? Remember, WP was founded with a rather positive view of people. We still assume most people are honest. Charles Matthews 19:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The last one is a good thing :). You seem to have a clear idea what this guideline is for. But when I try to read it I'm reading it like the other guidelines, that it is maintained by Wikipedians for Wikipedians. If it is against big organisations and commercialism I wonder how could it be made clearer... I am worried about the effects this guideline could have in small scale situations, when editors try to interpret it and apply it to each other. If this is one of the first guidelines a new editor is directed to read, he/she might be really confused. The part where it is told that you must not use this to win an argument is almost in the end of the page. And I'm not sure if it's always easy to tell the difference.

How about telling in the beginning a little bit more about what this guideline is for? How about telling after that how it relates to other guidelines? How about putting after that everything about infering something about the tone of the edit (that is the most difficult part I think, because how to decide who can infer it? How to avoid personal hatred? If someone tries to infer that I'm not trying to edit neutrally, I take it very personally!) Well, these are just ideas. But I do think that this guideline is not clear enough. I had to talk here forever to try to start to understand it :).

Maybe there could even be two different guidelines... one for ordinary small scale advertising, where you could direct someone to go if their edits are too promotive. And another one for extreme cases, like those "worst disputes" you talked about. It doesn't seem nice that if someone tries a little bit advertise himself/herself/something else (maybe by accident at first), they are immediately accused somehow personally. It could be useful to have some page to direct that kind of an editor, but it's very difficult for me to imagine that I would direct him/her here. --Shyranoe 20:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The usual way with policies is to make them general statements, with which almost everyone can agree. The general statement here is this: editors shouldn't put outside interests ahead of Wikipedia's interests. That is what 'conflict' means to us. To that there is added enough types of examples, and advice. Accusations of COI are not acceptable. Charles Matthews 09:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, there is a lot of agreement here. Giving advices is good, accusing is not so good. The page still talks about infering, suggesting and reporting COI, and I believe that if I did any of these it would be taken as an accusation. That's why it might be good to have two steps of the process. First a guideline where to direct someone to read all the good advices. Second one if someone continues acting disruptively and shows continuous lack of right motivation. These two matters could even be on the same page if they were somehow separated. Now it starts with the heavy part. Earlier I saw one advertiser, and I'm quite sure that if I had directed him/her here, it would have started a personal fight and made the person defensive. --Shyranoe 16:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

As a person who rarely contributes here, but often comments on the issues at WP:COI/N, I'm having trouble figuring how this discussion makes any difference. Actual cases are seldom decided by the rulebook. In recent months only one case that I've studied seemed to come down to rule interpretation, and that's the 'Arbuthnot' case that is still open, if anyone want to go over to COI/N and contribute to the discussion. Mostly we look at the actual stuff that the editor has done and see if it appears fishy. Oftentimes, negotiation is possible. It would be helpful if people who comment on this Talk page would occasionally mention specific noticeboard cases where their proposed rule change at WP:COI would have made a difference. EdJohnston 16:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm talking about a little bit different issue. I'm talking about the situation before it goes to that point that you are making decisions at WP:COI/N (in my latest comment). --Shyranoe 17:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I am glad my initatial post generated such an interesting discussion. Having reread the policy, I think one crucial points needs to be stressed even more: our goal of neutrality. Conflicts of interests increase the likelyhood of non-neutral contributions, but its perfectly normal: remember that nobody can be truly neutral - WP:NPOV acknowledges this with "All editors and all sources have biases" and other such statements. Editors should be aware of their possible COIs, delcare them and seek input and reviews using COI noticeboard; however they should not be discourgaged from editing subjects as long as they are aware of their bias and try to be neutral. We should assume good faith and assume that any contributors - even those who are getting paid for their edits - are trying to be neutral and are activly trying to balance their POV. Thus we should not seek to discourage editors who are making money for writing articles, as this will only drive them underground and encourage disruptive behaviour; we should embrace them and streamline our ways of dealing with them - for example by instituting an obligatory review for any article created 'for profit' (and for others COIs). But again, we should be assuming good faith and not discourage involved editors from editing as long as they are trying to be neutral.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Virtually every paid editor who's caught trying to spin an article will stand up and swear that they were being neutral, so that idea won't fly. Whoever pays the piper calls the tune. Improper paid editing is a serious threat to Wikipedia and should be discouraged. There are situations where a paid editor can participate, as the guideline explains: reverting true vandalism or spam, removing slander under WP:BLP, and of course raising concerns on the article talk page. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 07:45, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

If it is really possible to have some kind of checking service, how about to make a guideline instruction:

In order to assure the neutrality of paid edits, all editors who get paid need to

• send new material to be checked first OR
• report themselves on a noticeboard so that their edits can be followed.

And this could be a friendly noticeboard, not the same place where all kind of negative things are handled. Even though people can edit anonymously, many companies and organisations would respect the rule. (Of course not all would know about it, but if someone were directed to read a related guideline he/she would find out.) The non-neutral parts could be sent back to the person and asked to be still improved. This would sound more cooperative than to talk about bad intentions, and it would be a clear message. --Shyranoe 11:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Latest edit

Hi! You added "or organized groups of editors" in the first line. I have no experience of organized groups like that, but doesn't that make things even more complicated? After all, everyone is here as an individual. --Shyranoe 15:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

And Wikipedia is itself an organized group of editors, as are most of its departments and WikiProjects. The Transhumanist   

Reading the article conflict of interest it sounds like usually being a situation where a single person is in (there might be other meanings as well, though). Unless someone else has an opinion, I'm thinking it could be like this: "A Wikipedia conflict of interest is an incompatibility between the purpose of Wikipedia, to produce a neutral encyclopedia, and the aims of an individual editor." --Shyranoe 16:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is this a guideline, and not a policy?

The Transhumanist   

Can a policy exist as a mere recommendation? There are no strict rules in this guideline, only recommendations reinforcing existing policy. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is the policy, this is just a special case deserving its own article. ∴ here…♠ 03:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus, it is not unambiguously defined what constitutes a COI, and it is not a given that someone with a COI automatically may never edit his article. >Radiant< 09:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

One part

There is this one part where I'm trying a small change ("Be guided by the advice of other editors. If editors on a talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest, consider withdrawing from editing the article, and try to identify and minimize your biases"). The reason is this: another editor is not always right. When I first started using Wikipedia I got "advices" from a very unfriendly person. Some of them were good, but many of them were groundless accusations. Would someone be against this: "Be careful and guided by the advice of other editors. If editors on a talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest, try to identify and minimize your biases, or consider withdrawing from editing the article." --Shyranoe 09:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not an improvement. "Be guided by the advice of other editors" does not mean to blindly believe what any random person says. WAS 4.250 13:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but if the reader is a new user he/she might understand it that way. Am I the only one around here who remembers how difficult it is to be a new user? What about this: "Be guided by the advice of other editors. If editors on a talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest, try to identify and minimize your biases, or consider withdrawing from editing the article." --Shyranoe 13:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no practical difference as the English word "or" does not distinguish between "exclusive or" and "inclusive or". So I would not revert such a change as I see no real difference. WAS 4.250 20:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. --Shyranoe 09:47, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

(reset) Shyranoe, I request that you discuss edits in advance here. Lately you've made a lot of changes that have been reverted for lack of consensus. Being bold once or twice is fine, but repeatedly making changes that others disagree with isn't the best way forward. Thank you for your kind understanding. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 02:26, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I have tried to make very subtle changes on this page. I know it is not possible for me to edit any big change here. I have tried to use the talk page, but maybe not enough. Sorry! --Shyranoe 13:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The nutshell

The nutshell seems to tell you to not to edit even if you don't have a conflict of interest. One possible way to correct it would be to add these four words after "Avoid": "... or exercise great caution..." --Shyranoe 16:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the sentence is clear that it's targeting people with a conflict of interest since it goes on to "where your close connection to the subject may cause a conflict between your agenda and Wikipedia's goal..". Even if this is unclear your suggestion would have no impact on whether the sentence targeted people with a conflict of interest or not, only on the strength with which we indicate a desire for them not to edit. -- Siobhan Hansa 16:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

"where your close connection... may cause a conflict" is not the same thing than to have a conflict. And even if you have some kind of conflict, it's ok to edit sometimes, depending on what you do. I think my solution could be enough, because now it sounds like a strict rule, and then it would leave some space. --Shyranoe 16:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The point of a nutshell (or even a guideline) isn't to leave some space, it's to give a brief description so that a quick look that best encompasses the essence of the guideline. And the essence is - "Conflicted? Whoa!"

There are two separate issues in the statement - who is compromised; and what people in a compromised position should do. Your edit targets what people in a compromised position should do, but the issue you highlighted is who is compromised. To address who is compromised the nutshell could change the bit that addresses the who bit - from "may cause a conflict" to "causes a conflict" for instance. If you actually want to give people with a conflict of interest more leeway to edit in the nutshell then "Exercise great caution" wording does give them that, though it may as well replace rather than be added to the "Avoid" wording, since it's a nutshell and there's no room to indicate which of the two approaches is appropriate for the reader. Personally I think the nutshell is better off erring on the more restrictive interpretation of both these issues, since the times when the less restrictive interpretation is appropriate is more nuanced than when it isn't. And you can't get over nuance well in a nutshell. -- Siobhan Hansa 17:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I will tell you what I discovered today after seeing the disturbing level of COI among the very people who are shaping COI. I will always be as lost as I have been this last month, and I am not going to spend my free time around shills and spammers who will use the rules to beat me up, then smack me with an AGF if I talk back. I'm not really wanting to blame, or complain or bend wikipedia to fit my own MPOV, but I really am discouraged in ways that really get to me. Flowanda 07:04, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Single Purpose Account editing important guideline

Shyranoe, sorry to put these questions to you, but I think it's time. Why have you created a single purpose account to edit this guideline? Why do you persist in making edits that clearly do not reflect consensus? I was assuming good faith, but I am not required to do so indefinitely in the face of contrary evidence. Are you concerned about your closeness to an article that you have been editing? Is this guideline inconvenient for you, so you are trying to make these changes? Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 17:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Shyranoe: While the single purpose account question above is a valid one, I would also like to ask you to also stop making changes to this guideline without first seeking consensus to make that change. Your changes are being continually opposed by other editors on this page but you persist in making them. As they have stated, consensus supports the current version of this guidelines. As such, you should first seek consensus before making any other changes. Best, --Alabamaboy 17:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

First I would like to say this: I made small changes. Mostly I talked here, and when I didn't, I was definitely ready to do so. I was all the time looking for conversation. Then I would like to say this: It is not wrong to create a single purpose account, if I don't use any other account to edit the same pages (and I'm not doing so). I have been very honest that this is a single purpose account writing it on my user page. And then I would like to say this: The moment Jehochman stopped me and said I was going too fast and not looking for consensus enough, I didn't try more of my changes on the page. And for Jehochman: you said you were assuming good faith, what stopped you of doing so? That I edited too much? Maybe I'm not used to editing guidelines. I really didn't know what's too much here. And then this: The biggest way this guideline is inconvenient to me is, that I feel that directing someone here or reporting someone could create a personal fight or make the person unnecessarily defensive, as I have described above. I don't have a conflict of interest, at least I don't think so. I'm not working for any company to do this. I don't want to tell who I am, because I'm putting in so critical opinions. I have known all the time that the chance of making a change here is almost nothing. But I have a right to be here. --Shyranoe 18:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You absolutely have a right to be here, and you have a right to make critical opinions. However, it will be best if we discuss all changes fully on the talk page before making edits to the guideline. Single purpose accounts get less weight than other editors because we can't see your contribution history to judge your reputation. You can post whatever suggestions you like on the talk page, but don't edit the guideline further unless we achieve a consensus.

Have you ever tried patrolling WP:COIN? There's a big backlog and you are welcome to help out. If you look at the COI problems that come up day to day, you may find that this guideline isn't so bad. In fact, you'll probably see that this guideline is quite necessary to prevent Wikipedia from being overrun by commercial interests. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 18:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The guideline might be useful there, but it doesn't mean it's wording couldn't be improved. --Shyranoe 18:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The next day after that

Before putting more of my opinions or ideas here I think I should say something about my intentions. I got a feeling that Jehochman practicly said that he thought I have COI. I took it personally, and I had to use a lot of strength to not to reply unpolitely. I can't think of any situation I would personally benefit this guideline to change. There is no article about me or anyone close to me, and I have never advertised anything on Wikipedia. I have always tried to follow the policies and respected the idea of Wikipedia. I have a very clear reason why I came to this page. I have seen some both good and not-so-good sides about Wikipedia. I know how difficult it is for editors to cooperate sometimes. That is what I'm after, more understanding on Wikipedia between editors. The biggest difficulty writing on this talk page is, that I believe that the people working with COI matters also want to create peace, and I have to criticize. Every day I wonder if it's the last day I will be able to overcome that feeling. --Shyranoe 19:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's odd, very odd, for somebody to come to Wikipedia and immediately try to change the COI guideline. If you have nothing to hide, let us see what else you are working on here. Why have you created a single purpose account? I see no legitimate reason to do that. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 19:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It's odd in your eyes: as I said, I'm not used to editing guidelines and I can't know how everything works. It's not yours to judge what kind of choices I make. I'm making a choice of using a single purpose account, because I know how easily things get personal. I already feel that you hate me because I have said opinions you don't like. Maybe I have not said them the best possible way, but this has been the best I have been able to. --Shyranoe 20:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Irrespective of what name you may use to contribute elsewhere, it's not clear why you're unhappy with the current state of the guideline. If I could perceive what problem you are trying to fix, I might be more sympathetic to your edits. In general, it doesn't make sense to have a COI guideline unless we take account of *who* it is that is applying the edits. Many of the changes you have made recently to the guidelines appear to be trying to weaken them. Very often these changes have been reverted. It would help if you could explain why you don't like the guidelines in their current state. Even your comment above is very vague; lots of discussion about good faith and creating peace but not much discussion of what is actually wrong with the guidelines. EdJohnston

It's probably best that I'll try to describe what I have done and why.

• I wrote one suggestion on User:Shyranoe/Conflict of interest material. I wanted to show that it might be possible to write this to be more about content.
• I made some suggestions that the guideline could be written in another order or have two different guidelines. This is because then the person directed to the guideline could first read the advices and think about them, before getting a feeling of being a wrong person or something like that.
• I just made one new suggestion up there (section title What is wrong with this guideline), which could be combined with any other way of writing the page.
• I have also made small suggestions:

• To get "we" and "you" out of the same sentences (section title About the usage of the word we). There are many confusing things about this, I already wrote some up there. I could say more about this.
• I suggested that it's not good to use the word "avoid" or similar to that without another option (both section titles The nutshell and One part). You thought I wanted to weaken the guideline, but I want to weaken it only unless it can be written clearer. Now the page sounds like a rule against just about any kind of connections to wide area of things.
• There has not been much discussion about this, but "and organized groups of" was added in the first line. I tried to ask about it after the edit was made, because it brings a new and complicated aspect on this page. This far it has been enough for everyone to worry about themselves. The "organized" seems to refer something outside of Wikipedia. Even though there might be such organizing, everyone is in charge of their own edits on Wikipedia, not someone elses. I think it would be good to carefully consider this edit, I would have something more to say about this matter as well.

I tried to be brief now. I am trying to think of as concrete suggestions I can, I know it's the best way to get something done. I would like to create a more complete suggestion for the whole page, but that might be beyond me on my own. --Shyranoe 13:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't for Paid Editing

If I understand correctly, User:Shyranoe proposes to modify this guideline so paid editors, or conflicted editors, can have a place to leave their proposed contributions. Such a place already exists for each and every article. That's the article talk page. If a paid editor wants to create a new article, they can go to the talk page for the relevant category or a topic. There's no need to create additional bureaucracy or noticeboards. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 14:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

That one suggestion is not my main issue at all. I made it because you and some others seem to be thinking that the paid editors are a big problem and they need to be send a clear message. I thought maybe it would be clear to give them exact instructions. --Shyranoe 16:05, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

We try to avoid instruction creep. For what it's worth, I've written an essay on how marketers can interact with Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Search engine optimization. I believe this is referenced from the bottom of this guideline. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 16:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Is there any rule that such conflicts must be stated or acknowledged by paid editors? How would anyone even know if an editor is paid for his or her edits? csloat 16:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

There's no rule about disclosure, and there is no way to know for sure who's being paid. By disclosing, people may be more inclined to help if asked nicely. Those who don't disclose risk being embarrassed if somebody learns about the commercial relationship, or if the edits show an obvious pattern of abuse. You'd be surprised how easy it is to spot a shill. When confronted, they just hang on and argue against all reason or logic. That's the problem with being paid -- the client expects a result, and doesn't care about the good of the project. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 16:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Jehochman! I read your essay, and I can see that it's your area. I will write here something about the difference in the way we see this subject. I know close to nothing about marketing, I have a degree of some scientific field. When I'm reading the guideline my concern is not the marketers but people with different kind of connections to their hobbies, areas of interest, and uncommercial associations. Of course they can have a conflict of interest, too, but I'll come to this shortly. The reason I made the suggestion about paid editors was that to be more clear with them would allow to make difference between these groups. (My suggestion might have been bad, I'm not arguing for it now.) Even though non-paid editors can also have a conflict of interest, going against commercialism needs so much energy, that I think the same amount of energy directed towards ordinary people is really a lot. When first reading this guideline I tried to relate it to my experiences, and I didn't find connection because the world where you live in is not familiar to me. The guideline is read by many users, also good ones. Reading it can make ordinary people wary of writing anything about themselves on their user pages. There is so much energy in this guideline that I feel it could affect athmosphere also in those situations where there isn't any intention to go against Wikipedia's purposes. That is, unless any change is made. I don't want to have your perspective out of the page, but I think it would be good to have it balanced somehow. --Shyranoe 19:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. People who love astronomy should write about astronomy; Buddhists should write about Buddha. Maybe we need to add a section to this guideline that says, "You should feel free to write about subjects that matter to you, or where you have professional expertise. As long as you aren't trying to promote yourself, or your business organization, that isn't a conflict of interest." Maybe we need a section and an additional sentence in the lead paragraph. Jehochman (^talk/_contrib) 20:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I have a feeling we are able to talk with each other :). Is there a smallest chance that we could try to talk more? I hope you could believe that I'm not after some commercial interests to take over Wikipedia. If I have made edits that have seemed so, it has been for very different reasons. --Shyranoe 20:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked at the page carefully in a light of your new sentence. I found it better and clearer. Would it be possible to do something to the we/you sentence? To change that has nothing to do with marketing and it wouldn't weaken any message. If I read a sentence in a guideline with both we and you in it I don't know whether I'm we or you there. --Shyranoe 07:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)