Talk:Logos

Removed from Word when I turned it into a disambiguation page:

 Logos also has parallels to the eastern concepts of Tao and dharma.

Can anyone find a place to put this? The assertion doesn't come with any other information to support it (though I don't doubt it), and definitely doesn't belong in word. --Ardonik 21:38, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

About logos

I was heard about logos in my politics lesson at Fudan University in Shanghai. My teather appreciated it very much. at here, as a Chinese, I want to tell the difference between Logos and Tao(道)。 In some aspects, they are quite familiar.Logos express by words, but tao usually can not been expressed. I have to feel it and understand it by your self.

                             PZ

Logos; Word, The

It says in th section about Christianity "In Christianity, it is often suggested that the prologue of the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos"

Shouldn't this be changed to, "In Christianity, the Gospel of John calls Jesus the Logos in the prologue." or something along those lines. This is because it isn't suggested that he was referred to as that. The Gospel of John was written in Greek and the word used was Logos. - Amazon10x 23:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Due to no response, I have edited the page and removed "it is often suggested that" from the opening sentence - Amazon10x 02:17, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Logos = Ratio

I believe that logos means fraction or ratio in Greek math. That's why logarithms are called logarithms: logos-arithmos = ratio-number. Logarithms can be used to measure ratios, e.g. at a logarithmic axis.

The several meanings of Greek logos and Latin ratio seem to connect nicely. We have logos = ratio = fraction. Since proportions can be expressed as fractions, like two-to-three, 2::3, 2:3 or 2/3, we also have the meaning proportion. Being able to see things in their proper proportions has to do with being sensible, rational, knowing (rhyme and) reason. But rationality deals with that which can be verbalised, hence with words.

In math, rational numbers are numbers that can be written as fractions, describing those proportions the Greeks would call commensurable (actually, that's the latinised word; what's the Greek???), where as irrational numbers are those that cannot be written as fractions, realted to incommensurable proportions (abhorred by the Pythagoreans).

Now, I don't really know this stuff, but if it's not too contrived, someone else can perhaps incorporate some of it into the article. --Niels Ø 17:38, 20 February 2006 (UTC), rev. --Niels Ø 07:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Me again: If the above is correct (and no-one has denied it here!), I think ratio should go into the list of "similar concepts" in the article, but being no expert and having no sources, I will not do it myself.--Niels Ø 20:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Since ratio = proportion (mathematics), i'm linking one of the definitions of logos, "proportion" to "Proportionality (mathematics)" Onionmon 20:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Logos = Reason or Purpose

I believe in the above, stating that Logos = Ratio (reason or purpose). I think that in John Logos means reason or purpose.

Sections from the main article with what I think they should say:

"In the beginning was the purpose [Logos], and the purpose [Logos] was with God, and the purpose [Logos] was God." (KJV with logos translated to purpose). Perhaps in our English the last clause should be “and the purpose was God's”.

From main article: "John turns the concept of the Logos on its head when he claimed "the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14)."

This quote should be:

"the purpose [Logos] became flesh and dwelt among us" (v. 14).

I think this makes sense. That is that God had purposed to have the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (v.14) from the beginning (v.2). And that God had this purpose with the earth (the reason the earth was created) with Him at all times (v.1) (Not that the Lord Jesus Christ pre-existed with God the Father). And that this was God the Fathers purpose (v.1).

I know some religions believe that this is what John means in his writing. Should this go into the main article?

Perhaps this goes deeper than this. This might be referring to God's purpose to have us all as sons and daughters of God and for God to be our Father (2Cr 6:18), which is possible through the Lord Jesus Christ.

• This is definitely interesting. Ianus Maximus 21:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Logos was the Faculty of Reason?

The article says, "By the time of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, logos was the term used to describe the faculty of human reason...." This contradicts the judgment of at least two great scholars of ancient Greek: James Adam (The Republic of Plato, 2nd edition by D.A. Rees, vol. 2, p. 70) and John Burnet (Plato's Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito, p. 188). (In support of his claim that logos "is not the faculty of reason", Adam cites an article titled "Vernunft" ("Reason") by Friedrich Schleiermacher.) According to Adam and Burnet, logos in Plato always means speech, statement, argument, account, explanation, principle, rule. Isokrates 00:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

In his The Ethics of Aristotle (1900), Burnet says, "The word [logos] is never used in Plato or Aristotle in the sense of Reason [i.e., faculty of Reason], though [logon echein] may be translated 'to have a reason' or, in that sense, 'to be rational' " (p. 488, Burnet's emphasis). This, he thought, was true of "ordinary Greek" in general (see his p. 35).Isokrates 20:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Logos re-understood from post-positivistic semiotic/linguistic

Ugh. that title-thing I just wrote could give a person hives.

This is what I am trying to get at, however. We (at least most of us, in the Western world--by philosophical reckoning--from about 1850 until the later 1900s, or even now) have been steeped in the tradition of language as representative and correlational. This refers to the way we have tended to see words as "only" words which are separate from, and independent of, the "real" concepts, ideas or things to which they point.

Many postmoderns (or pick your favorite "post-") have followed from the work of folks such as Derrida, in suggesting that there is nothing "mere" about language; that it is at least as much a component of what we know as "reality" than are other "things".

This is important because it brings new light into what has been a problematic text: "In the beginning was the Word (logos). . ." Many theologians have worked around this mystery (how can God be "word") by expanding the meaning of "word" or by moving it into some arena of particular meaning. To many this has been unsatisfactory; it is difficult to comprehend why these few verses would be delivered in a voice so very different from the rest of the book of John.

But what if we were to accept the possibility that the Scriptures were inspired? What if they were written/revised/spoken/rewritten so that they had meaning for the present audience, but also would speak to readers from different times and places? This is not such a large step to take if one accepts, as has the majority of the Christian Church from the beginning until now, that there is a God and that this God is omniscient and not bound by time.

Wittgenstein in particular might be illuminating. Here is a paragraph from the Wikipedia article: __start quote___ On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise, on this account, when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment, where all the familiar and necessary landmarks have been deliberately removed. Removed for what appear to be sound philosophical reasons, but which are, for Wittgenstein, the very source of the problem. Wittgenstein describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice; where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language (the language of the Tractatus), where all philosophical problems can be solved without the confusing and muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, just because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no actual work at all. There is much talk in the Investigations, then, of “idle wheels” and language being “on holiday” or a mere "ornament", all of which are used to express the idea of what is lacking in philosophical contexts. To resolve the problems encountered there, Wittgenstein argues that philosophers must leave the frictionless ice and return to the “rough ground” of ordinary language in use; that is, philosophers must “bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use.”

_____end quote_____

Especially if we simplify a bit to capture the main thrust, something like "On Wittgenstein's account, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise. . .when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment. . .. Wittgenstein argues that . . . philosphers must "bring words back from their metaphysical to their everyday use."

Now the reference to God as "the Word" assumes a strikingly new tone. This is, by the way, a tone that fits more easily with the rest of John's gospel than does the disembodied theological referent. John, the apostle "whom Jesus loved" gives us a gospel that is more 'human' than the synoptics.

What a way to speak to us about the incarnation--the embodiment of God into human flesh.

I completely understand that this is probably not a meaning that the original hearers (probably speaking Aramaic, not Greek) would grasp in the same way as a postmodern might. Yet if we remember the striking account of Acts 14:

When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they yelled out in the language of Lycaonia, "The gods have turned into humans and have come down to us!" The people then gave Barnabas the name Zeus, and they gave Paul the name Hermes, because he did the talking. The temple of Zeus was near the entrance to the city. Its priest and the crowds wanted to offer a sacrifice to Barnabas and Paul. So the priest brought some bulls and flowers to the city gates. (Acts 14:11-13 Contemporary English Version)

All is to say that the audience witnessing the event, as well as the audience later reading the account after the Gospel of John had been written, would have no problem with the idea that the gods might descend from the heavens and walk around, interacting with ordinary people. Note that the priests of the temple of Zeus apparently believed it.

So if it makes sense to frame "Logos" as "the Word" (rather than as logic or concept or ...) in both the original and present situations, perhaps we don't need to work so hard at bringing in an enlightenment-era account. Though it certainly would not have been heard the same way by a First Century and Twentieth Century audience, the word works in both cases.

I realize that this is not the place for new theories or speculations. However, I would be completely surprised if this were new--I believe it likely that this point has been covered by theologians of the last few decades.

I include it because the things that were included (Tao, mathematics, etc.) seemed way farther afield than a reading of the text with rather ordinary meanings. And it just might be that Wittgenstein understood this, though I have not run across any Wittgensteinian theology. After all, he was known as "the Gospel man" for handing out copies in the war.

Also, I do understand this is much longer than usual, but it is a rather complex idea. It is because of this that I thought it better to post here than directly to the article. This isn't a campaign, I don't have much at stake whether it gets included or not. It does, however, seem to me to meet the basic criteria for a reasoned argument, and seems much more plausible than many. . .

Roy 04:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Citation

In the section "Use in Christianity", the Author uses incorrect style when quoting from the Bible. The proper citation style is:

(Book Name) (Chapter Number):(Verse Number)

For Example: Genesis 5:1 means Verse One of Chapter Five of the Book of Genesis.

I am not sure where in the Bible the verse "the logos became flesh and walked among us" (the verse that must be cited) comes from.

Ianus Maximus 21:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations needed

In the claim that "the word was God" is incorrectly translated, a citation is necessary. Additionally, if examples are going to be provided of a more "correct" translation, at least a few should be from commonly accepted Biblical translations - as a Christian who is familiar with a wide variety of English Biblical translations, I had never heard of any of the translations provided here as examples. If you want to make the point as to which version is in common use, I suggest using a passage from the New King James Version, the New International Version, the Revised Standard Version, or a similar widely accepted text. Using obscure translations doesn't demonstrate either that there was an error or that the "corrected" version is in common use. --Tim4christ17 ^talk 16:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Logos and Christianity

It is asserted without any backing evidence that the common and most accepted Translation of John 1:1 is false. Quotation of a selected few, of thousands of translations is not sufficient evidence for such a claim. I will edit it to show both POVs. --Mathaytace 19:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your changes, not because I dont agree with what you are doing, but because in the process you removed the different translations. I think that in order to establish what is the most accepted translation, we need to include the others and explain why they differ. John Vandenberg 02:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with putting some of the translations back, but I want to see that both sides are represented. The last writer, whoever it was, made assertions that are of a minority opinion, with no evidence.

Lets leave some of the translations, but insert my more neutral text. Sound fair?

--Mathaytace 03:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That looks a lot better. I've added the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures translation back into the list, so readers can see it in context of the other translations. John Vandenberg 05:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have added an explanation of the reason for differing translation. There is no proof of "minority" opinion. I have removed bias adjectives in favor of neutral adjectives.

The text above me is unsigned, and of a different author. The current version is slanted toward the alternate translation. I have removed references to biblical texts concerning the equality/inferiority of Jesus, as they are irrelevant. I cleaned up the language of the Traditional section, removing words that cast unnecessary doubt on the interpretation. The Alternate version of the text is argued for, rather than offered as a possiblility. I have added a neutrality tag for this reason. This is obviously a work in progress.

--Mathaytace 11:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The section on whether Logos is God or a god should be a lot shorter. It should say that traditiionally Logos has been identified as God, that more recent translations sometimes identify Logos as a god, and why. There's a page devoted to John 1:1 where the rest of the details would be welcome. Jonathan Tweet 14:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)