Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 15

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Korean: unstable; Hanja: High

Requested moves to date

1. Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 3#Requested move Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks, result of the debate was move, 2 May 2005
2. Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 4#Requested move Liancourt Rocks → Dokdo, result of the debate was move, 1 June 2006
3. Talk:Dokdo/Archive 10#Requested Move May 2007 and Talk:Liancourt Rocks/Archive 11#Requested Move May 2007 Dokdo → Liancourt Rocks, result of the debate was move, 28 May 2007

--Philip Baird Shearer 21:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Did Ahn Yong-bok go to Edo and receive the Kanpaku's note?

See Archive 12: Did Ahn Yong-bok go to Edo and receive the Kanpaku's note? for earlier discussion on this topic.

About the source of "either island"
Present article is follows.

The South Korean government insists that the area of "Ulleung-do" included the Liancourt rocks, as the treaty also mentioned that Japanese sailors should not travel to either island.

It is only Takeshima(Ulleung-do at that time) becoming the agenda in a diplomatic negotiation. Please teach me the source of "either island." The original text of prohibition on sailing to Ulleung-do by shognate is "向後竹島江渡海之儀制禁." This[1] is a document that the Tsushima clan gave Korea. I cannot find the word that can be interpreted as "either island."--Opp2 09:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

To begin with, what is the "treaty"? When did Japan and Korea conclude a treaty? --Opp2 05:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:18thcenturydokdo.jpg

An 18th century map of Korea drawn by the Chosun court. 2 islands in the approxamite locations of Ulleungdo and Liancourt Rocks can be seen to the east of Korea.

This is not a 18th map by the Chosun court but a 19th century map printed in Japan (it is too accurate for 18th ones). You can also find a slightly enlarged different print of the same map.[2] According to the Catalogs of historical and literal material related to Takeshima/Dokdo issue (竹島／独島関係 史・資料目録, p. 15, #1556) by Yuji Fukuhara (The University of Shimane)[3], it is one of 『朝鮮與地全図』 (Chōsen Yochi Zenzu) drawn by 関口備正? and published in 1875 (明治8年) by 山城屋佐兵衛, 大蔵孫兵衛, and 朝倉屋久兵衛 (you can recognize these names at the bottom left of the map). Takeshima and Matsushima in the map are actually Argonaut Island and Ulleungdo, respectively. You can see KPOV explanation of the maps in the era (in Korean) here, while Japan never recognized the islets at 37°14′N, 131°52′E (Liancourt Rocks, リアンコヲルトロックス) that were incorporated in 1905 after reconfirmation of 1878 and 1880 naval surveys as Korean territory. Anti-KPOV explanation can be found in some of Gerry-Bevers' Lies, Half-truths, & Dokdo Video, Part 1-10, Maps Part 1-12 site. Jjok 02:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I overlapped this map with an actual position. [4]--Opp2 15:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

regarding the map I added

Reasons as to why it should stay there.

• Paldo chongdo shows the entire peninsula with two islands to the west. Why should my map be deleted?
• The caption directs the reader where the two islands are. And I'm sure most readers will look on the right spot, they have common sense.
• Assume good faith and don't delete maps simply because you don't like it. If Chosun drew a map in the 18th century with islands in the approximate locations of ulleungdo and dokdo, thats too bad. Good friend100 00:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It is necessary to explain the Algonort island for NPOV if you want to post. [5][6] And, this map is a Japanese map in 1875. The era name of Japan(明治八年) and name of Japanese mapmeker(関口) and Japanese character(katakana) is being written in explanatory notes in this map. --Opp2 01:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Paldo chongdo shows the entire peninsula with two islands to the west. Why should my map be deleted?

Komdori explained his reasons in the edit summary. Opp2 also raised an objection to the map in the section above. I can't understand why you cannot see them.

• The caption directs the reader where the two islands are. And I'm sure most readers will look on the right spot, they have common sense.

The caption does not really direct me to any islands. I do not really understand which island you are talking about.

• Assume good faith and don't delete maps simply because you don't like it.

Please assume good faith and don't think people delete anything simply because they don't like it -- especially when they have already given an explanation. --Dwy 03:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

According to a common theory appears in Korean media, those two islands are not Korean territory since the color is different from the peninsula and same as Taemado, aren't they? So do you want to prove that Korean court recognized them as foreign territory? Jjok 16:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

An Incorrect Translation on your Liancourt Rocks Page

This historical inaccuracy in your Liancourt Page should be changed. I've previously commented on this mistake on your page and didn't receive response.

Your website reads: In 1677, the Japanese record Onshu shicho goki ("Records on Observations in Oki Province") was compiled by Saito Hosen in 1667. Saito was a retainer of the daimyo of Izumo (sesshu) and at his lord's behest made an observation trip to Oki Island whereupon he submitted these records to his lord. The record reports the following:

Oki is in the middle of the North Sea and is called Okinoshima. Going further from there for two days and one night in a northwesterly direction, one reaches Matsushima. Also there is Takeshima at another day's travel. These two islands are uninhabited and viewing Goryeo from there is like viewing Oki from Onshu. And thus Matsushima (Ulleung-do) marks the northwestern boundary of Japan.

Nowhere in Saito Hosen's 1667 report does it say "Matsushima" is the northwest boundary of Japan. It states "Thus, this "州" is the northwest boundary of Japan.

The character "州" in Kanji (chinese based-characters) means area or province. If you read the text of Saito Hosen't report he used the character "州" to denote province and used the character "島" to mean island.

In the last line of his report Saito Hosen states. "Viewing Korea from Takeshima~Matsushima is the same as viewing Oki Province from Shimae Province. This this "州" province or area markes the northern boundary of Japan.

Saito Hosen used the fact Korea was visible from Ulleungdo~Dokdo as a visual method to deem these islands as excluded from Japan not as her boundary. Why would the fact Korea was visible from Ulleungdo~Dokdo make them part of Japan?

This interpretation is also viewed by Korea Professor Shin Yong Ha in this website. http://www2.gol.com/users/hsmr/Content/East%20Asia/Korea/Dokto_Island/History/Shin_Yong-ha_2.html

On page 8 of this publication Mr Sean Fern's publication can also be seen the Professor Shin's translation that the 1667 Report on Oki should be translated to mean Oki Island was declared as Japan's boundary. http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal51/japan2.pdf

Scroll down to chapter 10 on this article by Japanese Professor Hideki Kajimura and you can see some Japanese also support the Korean interpretation of the 1667 Report on Oki by Saito Hosen http://dokdo-takeshima.com/hideki-kajimura.hwp

Here is an explanation and the original document of Saito Hosen's report. http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-saitohosen.html

Here is the Japanese text, an English translation and an explanation of the document to help you understand what many Korean and Japanese historians now say is a more likely interpretation of Saito Hosen's report. http://dokdo-takeshima.com/saito-oki-text3.jpg

Please consider these changes supported by the aforementioned citations. Clownface 15:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Disputes?

If ever there is a dispute, please talk here & call others. (Wikimachine 18:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC))

Critical historical data lacking on your Liancourt Rocks page !!

Your Liancourt Page has excluded some very critical material from the Dokdo Island dispute and it would be advisable to include some these historical facts to help better inform your readers about the truth of this dispute.

One fact you've left out is that when Korea was notified of Japan's annexation of Dokdo there is documented evidence that Korea already considered Dokdo part of Uldo Country (Ulleungdo) Here it is also recorded Korea objected to Japan's incorporation of Dokdo the moment she bacame aware of the fact.

Here is the document. http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/shimheungtaek-5.jpg

Here is a translation of Ulleungdo Governor Shim Heung Taek's reaction to Japan's annexation.

'Tokdo belonging to this county is located in the sea 100 ri from this county. A Japanese steamship moored at Todongp'o in Udo on the 4th day of the month about 8:00 a.m and a group of Japanese Officials came to my office and said, "We came to inspect Tokdo since it is now Japanese territory..." The group included official Zinzai, of Oki Island in Shimane prefecture, Director Yoshida Meigo of the Tax Supervision Bureau, police sub-station chief, Inspector Kageyama Iwahachiro, one policeman, one local assemblyman, a doctor and a technician and about a dozen 'followers, They have come for the purpose of finding out firstly, the number of households, population, and land production, and secondly, the number of personnel and expenditure. The record having being made, we submit this report for your reference. Lunar March 5, 10th year of Kwangmu (1906)...."

In this document is also recorded the response of the Domestic Affairs Dept...

"Order No.3 by the Daehan Empires Governor I have read this report. Their word that Dokdo has become Japanese territory is a totally unfounded allegation, recheck the island and action of Japanese people...." Korean newspapers of the day also protested Japan's annexation of Dokdo the moment they found out.

Here is the newspaper article that mirrored the response of the Korean government's shock and dismay. The newspaper name was the Daehanmaeilbo and the article expressing outrage was dated May 1st 1906.

http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/daehanilbo-article.jpg

Here is a translation of the newspapaer article. May 1st 1906 "Uldo governor Shim Heung Taek reported to the Domestic Affairs Office that some Japanese officials came to Ulluengdo Island and claimed Dokdo as Japanese territory, surveyed the island and then counted the number of households. In response to (Shim Hueng Taek's) the report, the Domestic Affairs office stated "It is not unusual for those Japanese Officials to inspect Ulleungdo Island while they were traveling in the area. However their claiming Dokdo as Japanese territory does not make sense at all. We find the Japanese claim shocking...."

Some points are clear from these documents. 1. Korean officials sincerely considered Dokdo part of Korea before the Japanese annexed the island. 2. Korean officials and media opposed and contested the Shimane Prefecture Inclusion of Dokdo by Japan when they became aware of the fact. 3. The name Dokdo was in usage before Japan annexed Dokdo.

The information I've given you can be verified by the following articles.

http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-Objections.html

You can also find this information on this article written by Hideiki Kojimura written for the Korea observer in Autumn of 1997. http://dokdo-takeshima.com/hideki-kajimura.hwp

The same information was written by Japanese writer in another edition of the Korean observer. The part about Korea's documented objections to Japan's annexation of Dokdo is recorded on page 21 of Kazuo Hori's "Japan's Incorporation of Dokdo" also written in Autumn 1997. http://dokdo-takeshima.com/kazuo-hori.hwp

Mr Lovmo's website also has an article about Korea's 1906 objections. http://www.geocities.com/mlovmo/temp16.html

BTW are you going to correct the mistake on the Saito Hosen report on Oki written in 1667? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Clownface (talk • contribs) 15:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC).

Thanks, anytime I work on this article I'll keep that in mind. (Wikimachine 01:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC))

It is the first Korean official document to which the name of Dokdo was described. The name of Dokdo has come out only after Japan is notified. Shim Heung Taek's report said that Dokdo is 100 ri(40km) from Ullengdo. The Korea government did not know even an accurate distance because there were 90km actual distance. Shim Heung Taek's report is very interesting. By the way, Shim Heung Taek welcomes the investigation committee of Japan in the record of Japan.--Opp2 02:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)