Talk:Martini (cocktail)

Early Unsigned comments

Is pink correct for rosé in french ?

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I have no idea of drinks, but anyway I wonder, is really "irrational" a preference of shaken over stirred? Shaking could add more air to the mixture that stirring, and that could have some subtle consequence.

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Shaking also chips the ice, which leads to more melting and a more dilute martini.

Ice chis detract from the drink aesthetically as well. Ice chips floating around... I really think this should be included as another possible reason for stirring. I know quite a few bartenders and afficianados who specify on this reason alone.

Gibson

The ratios specified in this article are suspect. A simple google on Gibson Cocktail will reveal almost NO other sources that specify a 6:1 gin to vermouth ratio for a Gibson. Why on earth then is this ration accepted here from some obscure website and Association that represents exactly nothing? Sharing knowledge, not attempting to ratify defacto standards should be the purpose of Wikipedia and so to present something so contentious as ratios in a Gibson as solid fact is not only misleading but also suspicious.

@Redmind, if you have a problem with the IBA Gibson ratio, then please edit the ratio or remove the IBA table altogether. Writing personal comments that include the word "absurd" on the actual article page should not be the purpose of Wikipedia either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.34.210.105 (talk) 18:20:25, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

OK: I am simply trying to provide the best, that is the most unbiased, definition of a Gibson to Wiki users. A simple google search wil reveal most receipes at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (note: especially French and German websites give 2:1). The page as it stands presents the IBA definitions as fact, and undisputed at that. Given the reality, andby that I mean confirmation from independent sources, a Gibson "should" be defined as having between a 2:1 and 3:1 ratio of gin to vermouth. This is the only point I am trying to make... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redmind (talk • contribs).

Please see Talk:Gibson for a discussion of how to best disambiguate "Gibson". Thanks. --rbrwr^± 10:59, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

History

About the history, the Martini,Sola & C., which much later became Martini&Rossi, was started in Turin in the distant 1863, and they were surely present in one of the Universal Expositions in Paris of a few years later (I once saw somewhere the original label commemorating the event, and the awarded medal was painted in the label since not so many years ago, perhaps still nowadays). That said, I wouldn't rule out that the name of the cocktail could come from that of the Turin's vermouth maker, God knows, perhaps someone brought that in the US just from that very same exposition. --Alessandro Riolo 19:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

>> "The gin and vermouth martini dates from the 1930s through the 1970s" This is simply incorrect. The gin and vermouth martini pre- and post-dates this span by decades, as shown by all reputable histories of the drink. BradGad [[User_talk:BradGad|(Talk)]] 22:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The Martinez never contained "maraschino cherry liquid". The correct ingredient is Maraschino liqueur, which is nothing like the sweet neon-red fruits. It is a colorless liqueur distilled from the fruit, pits, and stems of the maraska cherry. Any online recipe for the Martinez cocktail will show this. Thehersch 18:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

James Bond martini

Someone created an article with the rather unwieldy title "Medium Dry Vodka Martini with Lemon Peel, Shaken, not Stirred" which I propose be merged into this Martini cocktail article. Any objections, or other thoughts? Jonathunder 01:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm cleaning it up now. —Michael Z. 2006-02-09 17:20 Z

Move to Martini (cocktail)

Any objections to moving this to the disambiguated page title Martini (cocktail)? This drink is practically always called a "Martini", rarely a "Martini cocktail". This would allow linking with the pipe trick: [[Martini (cocktail)|]] shows up as Martini. —Michael Z. 2006-01-30 17:23 Z

Done. —Michael Z. 2006-02-09 17:20 Z

A possible some-argue-ism

"It has also been suggested that the V-shaped glass connotates the symbol of the sacred feminine. This gives the drinker the ability to "drink from a woman," explaining the sex appeal of martinis in popular culture."

Who has suggested this and where? --Ian Maxwell 22:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

shaken not stirred

Someone really ought to go through the whole article and put in the info that in the James Bond novels the martini was originally (and correctly) specified as being "stirred, not shaken". One of the producers of the early Bond films got it screwed up and it has never been straightened out again." Hayford Peirce 23:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, someone can't spell Ian Fleming, and secondly Bond does indeed order a martini shaken not stirred in the first Bond book Casino Royale (although not in those exact words). I haven't read all the others, so I defer to someone more obsessive than me. I've fixed the spelling, not sure whether to just drop some of the incorrect 007 stuff or amend somehow. Dave Beta 23:45, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

"In addition the drink is a perfect aperitif - it cleanses the mouth before eating - and the tiny air bubbles restrict the gin (or vodka) from reaching all tastebuds. This is why purists would claim that a martini should always be stirred." -- "Perfect apertif" is clearly non-NPOV. The second clause of the sentence is quite possibly counterfactual (it's generally accepted that bubbles in champagne improve the perception of flavor, with smaller bubbles doing a better job than larger ones). And "purists" who advocate against shaking martinis use a variety of appeals, most of them far more vague than an air-bubble theory.

Martini photo

How about a more archetypical martini photo? The glass currently pictured is abnormally stylish. I primer for martinis should show what the average martini (or matini glass) looks like, not a avant-garde variation.64.134.154.150 17:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Check out the picture at Manhattan (cocktail) -- I used an ordinary (I think) martini glass that I bought at Bed Bath and Beyond. I could take another photo, this time with a real martini in it. Hayford Peirce 17:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good - I was going to try to find a photo, but I'm fuzzy about fair use laws. But if you take one yourself for wikipedia, that's clearly legal, right?64.134.154.150 14:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely -- in fact, it's about the only image use that no one at all can find fault with under any pretext. I'll mix myself a nice martini tonight or tomorrow and take a photo of it more or less like I did with the manhattan picture, including the contents. Hmmm, I'll have to go buy a bottle of olives.... Hayford Peirce 19:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully nobody will object to the martini photo I found in the Wikipedia Commons and added. The article seemed like it could use another picture, since there is so much text. --Willscrlt 12:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sweet dark vermouth

It is possible that in Jerry Thomas's trips to Europe he influenced Italy's barmen, where the martini denotes sweet dark vermouth, rather than the cocktail, which is made with dry white vermouth

Which is made with dry white vermouth, the sweet dark vermouth, or the cocktail? —Michael Z. 2006-11-16 07:22 Z

Article needs some clean up

Around the "Over the Years" section and below, the article is badly formatted. The line "Vodka Martinis" (just below Over the Years) is out of place and doesn't make much sense to me. Should the line be a heading? I think someone should have a look at this. Thanks. --Karih 16:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claim about the legality of the Martini in the US

"Due to the potent ingredience it has been baned in amny staes of America."

Ignoring the spelling errors, this assertion is unsubstantiated. While many states in the United States have differing laws (see Alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state )regarding the purchase of alcohol from retail or wholesale vendors, as well as the transportation of alcohol across state lines, liquor service is available in licensed restaurants, banquet and catering facilities, airport lounges, and private clubs in the vast majority of US cities and states. Approximately 10% of the US population lives in so-called "Dry Counties" where access to the liquor used in the standard Martini variants (e.g. Vodka, Gin, various liqueurs) is restricted. Note, however, that these restrictions are not uniform across all dry counties. Source: [[1]] Deshelm 21:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed Personal Recollections about Gibson

I removed the following personal story about one version of the origin of the Gibson. While this is interesting info, it violates the policy against original research and also uses "I" language that's inappropriate for an article using a neutral point of view. Still, I didn't want this information completely lost, so it's pasted below.

My father, my uncle and my grandfather said this was the case. My grandfather was born in 1895 and remembered "Uncle Walter" drinking the Gibson when he was a child. WDK Gibson was the brother-in-law of JD Spreckels the Sugar King, an executive with the Spreckels companies and one of the first trustees of the California Palace of the Legion of Honor. The version I know goes that WDK disapproved of the drinks being shaken and began making his own which he mixed rather than shook. It was about the time he first joined the Bohemian which would have been about 1897. He would make them for other men too and it wasn't long before they started calling them "Gibson's Cocktail." In his recipe the drink was made with 1/3 dry French vermouth, 2/3 Plymouth Gin and with a twist of orange peel squeezed so that a bit of the oil floated on the top. He believed that by eating onions one would never catch cold, and hence the onion made its way into the drink too.

Charles McCabe tells the story(which he slightly garbles) in his book "The Good Man's Weakness". The earliest printed reference I have seen for the Gibson was from a bar book of about 1912 which makes no mention of the onion; but gives an otherwise more or less accurate description of what it calls a "Gibson Cocktail". And in fact that's what older people here in San Francisco always called it. Lucius Beebe in the Stork Club bar book was responsible for suggesting, merely as a guess that the Gibson had something to do with Charles Dana Gibson the illustrator, but in later years his partner Charles Clegg categorically defended the correct San Francisco origin. As to the Vodka Gibson: I am told that was created at the California Club in Los Angeles-----Charles Pollok Gibson.

Rickterp 16:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Citation needed for Saketini

The Saketini seems to be unfounded, even if reletivly new. A citation would be nice. (Preference for something which is not an add.)

Exor135 21:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Extra Dry?

Does anyone know how “extra dry” came to mean LESS dry vermouth rather than more? This goes against the classification used with wines and champagnes. For example, dry or brut typically refers to wines with very low sugar content. These wines are usually “sour”, fragrant and “light” on tongue. If the same classification were to be used with martinis, then extra dry martini should mean a more “sour” martini, i.e. with an extra portion of dry vermouth. I suspect that people unfamiliar with wine classifications understood “extra dry” to refer to the amount of vermouth, rather than its classification. And it stuck. As a result today one can order an “extra dry” Manhattan with red vermouth! Can anyone address this question? SEN--71.31.214.136 02:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

As you said "dry" in reference to a martini means "a lack of vermouth". While white vermouth isn't very sweet, it's sweeter than gin, generally. So, it's essentially the same as your comparison with sugar in wine. There is no "sour" martini, some would just refer to one with the (what I feel is) "proper" amount of vermouth as "sweet". As for your analogue with Manhattan's and red vermouth, I personally know what you mean as to a "dry" Manhattan (one with less red vermouth than normal), be wary ordering it out. I once mad this request and was served a Manhattan made with white vermouth! --JD79 03:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

As I recall, and it has been a few years since last I read deeply into the subject, Grimes and others suggest that the original reference was to indicate which vermouth was to be used, i.e., dry, white vermouth instead of sweet, red. Once the dry vermouth came to be the standard, the cultism of martini-drinkers continued to expand and those who were fond of speaking of dryness re-applied it to the quantity of vermouth. I'm not certain how he backed this up or whether it answers the question, but I offer what I have available. Czrisher 12:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

In Pop Culture

Are the references to Sweet Home, Alabama and Hitch really significant? Who added those, Grey Goose?

In the 2005 hit movie Hitch, Eva Mendes' character "Sara" is bought a Grey Goose Martini by Will Smith's character "Alex Hitchens".

In the 2002 movie Sweet Home Alabama, Reese Witherspoon's character orders a Grey Goose Martini dirty.

Silver Bullet cocktail

The definition I heard is gin with a little scotch. I ordered one once: the scotch even makes the "silver" look a bit "tarnished". This site and this one agree.--BillFlis 17:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Martinez Cocktail described in Bon Vivant's Companion: 1862 or 1887?

The article says

The earliest known reference to the Martinez is found in "The Bon Vivants Companion: Or How to Mix Drinks," first published in 1862.

However, a New York Times article—Grimes, William (1991), "Through a Cocktail Glass, Darkly," The New York Times, August 25, 1991, p. SM14—says the Martinez

pop up in the 1887 edition of Jerry Thomas's Bon Vivant's Companion, the most famous of the early American books on drinks.

Assuming that 1862 is indeed the date of the first edition, does anyone know whether that edition actually described the Martinez?

Grimes says of the recipe—one dash bitters, two dashes maraschino, one ounce Old Tom (sweet) gin, one wine glass sweet vermouth, and optional sugar syrup—”this is no martini; it’s a molten gumdrop.” Dpbsmith (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)