Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish subversion

Jewish subversion

Jewish subversion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This paragraph (it is a stub really) is an obvious WP:POVFORK that can become a POV magnet as well. Its dangerous and provocative opening sentence starts with "Adolf Hitler claimed to defend Germany from Jewish subversion" in which case Hitler would be creating a neologism and it would be violating WP:NEO on Wikipedia. There is already a well-established Antisemitic canard article into which this can easily be incorporated. Wikipedia does not need separate articles about all the supposed antisemitic sayings of Hitler. IZAK 09:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Delete and Merge contents into Antisemitic canard, as above. IZAK 09:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. IZAK 09:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - agree with IZAK and the nom TaintedZebra 11:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep — This article is not about "Antisemitic canard". The user who added antisemitic canard is User:Malik Shabazz[1] It is an independent topic regardless of antisemitic canards. It is not a neologism either, because "Jewish subversion" has been used in many academic books (which you can see by just looking at the references) explaining antisemitism. And how is this article a WP:POVFORK? It deals with discrimination Jews have faced by several different leading politicians. If it becomes a "POV magnet", we'll just make it NPOV. The topic is notable though. Its dangerous and provocative opening sentence starts with "Adolf Hitler claimed to defend Germany from Jewish subversion" in which case Hitler would be creating a neologism and it would be violating WP:NEO on Wikipedia. — Dangerous? Provocative? I'm sorry, but that is what he said he did. Didn't you read the cited source? Also, I found that in the Nazism article:

Nazism has come to stand for a belief in the superiority of an Aryan race, an abstraction of the Germanic peoples. During the time of Hitler, the Nazis advocated a strong, centralized government under the Führer and claimed to defend Germany and the German people (including those of German ethnicity abroad) against Communism and so-called Jewish subversion. Ultimately, the Nazis sought to create a largely homogeneous and autarchic ethnic state, absorbing the ideas of Pan-Germanism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Ideology

Are you going to delete that too now? By the way, I can see that the AfD nominator is Jewish. This isn't a personal attack or anything, but I get the feeling that censorship is at hand due to an uncomfortable topic, and you have to remember, WP:NOTCENSORED. Jewish subversion is hardly a neologism, it is even used by the Jerusalem post:[2] And many other newspapers and scholarly books: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL Sorry, but this is an independent topic, and deleting this topic is censorship and nothing else. — EliasAlucard|Talk 12:53 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The title alone is a tip that this one isn't going to be entirely neutral. It's like having "Communists in the State Department" as the introduction to McCarthyism. While the accusations that Hitler made would be notable, merely changing the title to "Accusations of Jewish Subversion" isn't a cure for this seigheilish little essay. Mandsford 12:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The title is beside the point, that is what this is called. If your concern is NPOV, that is no reason to delete this article. Because if your reason to delete this article is NPOV concern, then you are not neutral yourself since your POV is clearly showing. You think this is an uncomfortable topic, and again, I'll have to remind you, Wikipedia isn't censored. What you're implying, is that you want to delete this article because you don't like the title of it. That is censorship. Case in point: your delete vote is not valid and shouldn't count. — EliasAlucard|Talk 13:22 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
    • • "Your delete vote is not valid and shouldn't count". Oh, excuse me. Change the title of garbage and it's still garbage. I like the way you lump Hitler and the Roman Catholic Church together as one: "Nazi Germany and the Roman Catholic Church considered 'Jewish subversion' to be a threat." What's up with that? Mandsford 20:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - This is not a vote: please see WP:PNSD. Freshacconci | Talk 12:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Reply Discussion or not, you will have to find valid reasons to delete this article, if you want it deleted. {{NPOV}} disputes are not reasons for deletion. Either you find actual reasons to delete this article, and then we can discuss if it's a valid reason to delete it, or, you edit the article until the point where you consider it NPOV. This "delete it because I find it too POV" is clearly an abuse of AfD debates. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:39 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Why is the title any worse than, say, Zionist Occupation Government, Kosher tax, or Jewish Bolshevism? — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 21:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Freshacconci | Talk 12:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Plenty of sources to speak to the subject and explain what the concept was/is who used/uses it and how; POV issues are legion on wikipedia but not a reason to delete an article that's a reason to edit an article. Deletion an article because it's a POV or vandalism magnet would wipe out Jesus and plenty of other standard fare for an encyclopedia. Fix through regular editing and make suggestions to focus the lede to steer towards non-forkiness as appropriate. Benjiboi 12:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Benjiboi is right. This entire AfD nomination, has no support in Wikipedia policy: WP:DEL#REASON — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:50 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Modernist 13:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep This is clearly not "Antisemitic canard". I've just recently read a biography of Winston Churchill, and several books regarding Neville Chamberlain and the British government during the late 30's and up to the start of the WW2 and the question of "Jewish Subverion" runs through all these books. Jewish refugees who wanted to come to the UK after the start of the war were viewed with suspicion, simply due to this reason, and this lead to them being sent to the British mandate of palestine after a certain number came to the UK, I think the number was 12000. scope_creep 15:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or redirect. It just seems to be a soap box for anti-semitic views; not a proper encyclopedic article.Spylab 16:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment — Well obviously, it is a topic related to antisemitism. I can see by now, that is the sole reason you want it deleted. Again, WP:NOTCENSORED. If you feel it isn't Encyclopaedic enough, edit it to a higher quality. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:16 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment As you seem to like citing that one rule, I'd like to point out what it actually says: "While obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site) is usually removed immediately, or content that is judged to violate Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy can be removed, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis and pornography) and do not violate any of our existing policies (especially neutral point of view)..." (emphasis mine). This is not a question of censorship. The article appears to be anti-semitic in nature which violates WP:NPOV. Freshacconci | Talk 16:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Reply — This article is not antisemitic, it's a topic related to antisemitism. This article has a historical significance, it deserves an encyclopaedic entry just as much as Jewish Question, Homosexuality and Islam, Islamic extremism, Islamophobia and other, controversial topics, which may, by the very nature of the article's topic, seem like anti this or anti that. Again, it's not a valid reason to delete it. Now, it's an indisputable fact, that this topic, Jewish subversion, is linked to politicians and other historically important men who have expressed antisemitic views regarding this article's topic. Again, that is not a reason to censor this article by deleting it. This article is part of Jewish history, it's an encyclopaedic topic. It deserves to stay. Now, I do agree that the current revision isn't exactly the best article on Wikipedia, but that is no reason to delete it. You can help improving the article by expanding and editing it to a higher quality version. By the way, where does it say, in Wikipedia policy, that you are allowed to AfD articles due to NPOV concerns? If this article gets deleted due to NPOV, I will report it as abuse of NPOV policy. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:48 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment — As I said, this AfD debate is an abuse of AfD nomination. Read this: WP:NPOV/FAQ#Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete. Fact remains: this topic is discussed in academic literature about antisemitism, it's here to stay, whether you like it or not. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:58 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Excuse me? If it is deleted its history. Seems to me it looks just like a duck, it sounds just like a duck, it walks just like a duck, but...Modernist 17:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply — What's that supposed to mean? If this article gets deleted, it only shows how censored Wikipedia actually is. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:18 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Nowhere does it say you cannot use WP:NPOV as a reason for deletion. The section you cite ends with: "Material that violates WP:NOR should be removed." There are serious questions of verifiability here. If that is not established, then WP:NOR applies. The sources cited merely add supposed references to what appears to be original research. In order to save this article, we would need to gut it and start again. Is there any point to that? Others have suggested a merge and that is a sound compromise, and that is exactly what we are here for, reaching consensus. Please do not jump the gun on whether or not the article is "here to stay". The necessary gutting of this apparent bit of original research would likely lead to an edit war: not a reason in itself to delete, but more than enough reason to be cautious and consider at the very least a merge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freshacconci (talk • contribs) 17:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply Nowhere does it say you cannot use WP:NPOV as a reason for deletion. — But that is what the AfD nominator did. This entire AfD debate, should on that basis, be disqualified since it wasn't a valid reason to AfD it in the first place. If the AfD nomination had been something like, "article has no encyclopaedic notability", that would have been a valid reason to discuss if it's notable and if it should be deleted. But, the truth is, the AfD nomination is for one reason only: the nominator is Jewish, he doesn't like the article because it bothers him, hence, he wants it deleted. I'm sorry, but that in itself, is not neutral. If you think this article suffers from Original Research, then you add an {{OR}} tag on it, discuss on the article's talk page, and from there, we reach consensus, compromise, and fix the article to an NPOV, free from Original Research, revision. This entire AfD debate should be closed without any deletion, because it's not a valid procedure in accordance with Wikipedia policy. It's so obvious that there are users here, far from being neutral on the subject, who want this article deleted for the sole reason that it bothers them, they feel offended by the controversial nature of the article; that's why they want to delete it. That is what we reasonable people call, Censorship. And don't even start with the "you're an antisemite" ad hominems. Personal attacks will get you nowhere. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:36 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Comment It sounds to me as though you might consider WP:NPA in your remarks about the nominator of this AfD. By the way this so called article that you are so ardently supporting is a total of 3 paragraphs of various biased points of view from Hitler to Henry Ford, this is not Censorship, your argument sounds a little too much like WP:ILIKEIT, and YES it's a duck, and I think you can understand that. Modernist 17:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply — It's not a personal attack. I'm simply pointing out the obvious. And neither is it WP:ILIKEIT, I always engage myself in AfD debates when articles I've created and worked on, are listed for deletion. I believe the reasons given here to delete the article, lack a valid, and most of all, neutral, reason. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:02 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I never called you an anti-semite. I said that the "article appears to be anti-semitic in nature." But it's interesting that you jumped to that conclusion, which is just as interesting as you pointing out that another editor is Jewish, and that is why "he wants it deleted." Cries of censorship, persecution and pointing out irrelevant information about someone's identity are odd ways to reach consensus (reminds me of certain groups, but I digress). By the way, my comment above pointed out that WP:NPOVis allowed as a reason for deletion (i.e. it does not say that we can't use it, as you have claimed). As for "it's here to stay, whether you like it or not" and "I always engage myself in AfD debates when articles I've created and worked on, are listed for deletion": you may want to check out WP:OWN. The fact remains, many of us feel the article is not worth keeping. That is our opinion. You can continue to obsessively watch this page and reply to everyone who disagrees with you, but I will move on. My opinion is here for the record. Have a nice day. Freshacconci | Talk 18:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply I'm not trying to WP:OWN anything. I added the {{expert}} tag, did I not? I added it because I wanted help with the article from people who are more familiar with the topic than I am. — EliasAlucard|Talk 20:01 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Comment This article is certainly not anti-semitic, and its NOT an neologism. Trying to extinguish something which is historical fact is stupidity in itself and is akin to burning books. Any student of pre WW2 history will tell you that this fact and phrase was well know throughout Europe and America in the 20's, 30's and early 40's. And please don't label me anti-semitic. I am half Jewish myself. scope_creep 18:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentThis so called article is about the German propaganda used against the Jewish people during the 1930s. Anti-semitic nah, by the way which half is Jewish? Modernist 18:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment The article at the moment only has a German reference to it, but it was used all over Europe and America at the time. It needs to be expanded with the right content and tidied up. The dark half....;8-) Modernist —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scope creep (talk • contribs) 19:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Question This is a question to the dark half - what was used all over Europe and America at the time? and please sign your edits - Modernist 19:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • • Reply Then we tag it Nazi propaganda,[3] which only makes it more notable. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:41 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, Redirect to, and Merge content into Antisemitic canard where it will fit perfectly with the other dozen or so examples of such. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 19:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment What's interesting here, according to the AfD nominator: There is already a well-established Antisemitic canard article into which this can easily be incorporated. Wikipedia does not need separate articles about all the supposed antisemitic sayings of Hitler. — is that, all the sections in the Antisemitic canard have their own, separate articles. Hence, this article, shouldn't be deleted. Should it have its own section in Antisemitic canard? Sure. But deleted? In my opinion, no. Otherwise we'll have to AfD all other articles in Antisemitic canard. — EliasAlucard|Talk 20:34 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Just to clarify my position: I don't think that the material should be deleted, just the article. Other sections within Jewish subversion are larger and might need to be separate articles, but I don't think this material does. Sheffield Steel^talk_stalk 20:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
• Keep "Jewish subversion" is an antisemitic canard but, as EliasAlucard just wrote, each of the other canards at Antisemitic canard has its own article. Accusations of Jewish subversion date from Biblical times (Esther 3:8, perhaps even Exodus 1:10) and have been a near-constant theme in anti-Jewish politics since then. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 20:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment With all due respect this article says nothing of the kind, Biblical? Esther? Exodus? what article did you read? I don't think so. Modernist 20:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply The article is still in its early stages. Yesterday, when it was created, it was a few sentences; while it's much improved today, it's still mostly about the 20th century . My point is that, contrary to many of the earlier comments, "Jewish subversion" is not a term or concept that originated with the Nazis. A more complete article, to which I'll help contribute, will show that accusations of Jewish subversion are almost as old as the Jewish diaspora. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 20:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment with all due respect, Modernist, but this article, is just the tip of the iceberg. I think that instead of wasting time on this AfD debate, we should be working on it. It can become a great article helping showcase the persecution of Jews through the centuries. — EliasAlucard|Talk 22:29 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)
• Comment with respect to you perhaps the article should be renamed and refocused to say: Subversion Of The Jewish People Over The Years. By the way this looks like WP:Canvas [4] - Modernist 21:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply WP:Canvas? The guy seems familiar with this topic, I would like to improve this article, and I asked him for some help. What's wrong with that? User:Scope creep has actually voted in this AfD poll. It doesn't fall under canvas. — EliasAlucard|Talk 22:43 31 Oct, 2007 (UTC)