Talk:Super Smash Bros. Melee

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Reception

The reception section is really short and doesn't seem to be very comprehensive. It consists of two paragraphs, a huge reviews table, and a laundry list of awards that it has won. Was this game really lavishly priased like it seems? There had to be some criticism somewhere. I cited the GameSpot review that said that it thought the controls were hyper sensitive, but it was removed, apparently because of WP:WEIGHT. That was probably all I could find on it... hbdragon88 (talk) 04:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Another is that the lead is excessively detailed and not really a summary...it goes into too much detail, IMO. But that's for the GA reviewer to decide, as I have made major edits to this article, not just any for a long time... hbdragon88 (talk) 06:32, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If you've noticed, I've revived the rest of the sections execpt Reception. As I've stated, I will get round to it but my school work must take priority over this factor. Once I've rewritten the Reception section, I will reference fully and then submit to FA. As for the lead, that's a maater of opinion; I just think that people are too accustomned to the usual VG articles with leads that are too short. But again, that's my opinion. Remember, the lead by itself should give a very good idea of the content of the rest of the article. Thanks for the comments though. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 07:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

GA!!!!

Why has this been nominated for GA!!! It is nowhere near where it needs to be and now is a state that will bely the effort that I have put into it. I can't believe that a user has nominated this, especially without consulting any user on the discussion. I advice somebody body to withdraw it because it will get failed outright; I haven't finished working on it. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 07:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I nominated it for GA to get some eyes from WP:GA to take a look at the article. Peer reviews seem to generate little reviewing other than automatic ones; hence the GA nom. Additionally, it was up for discussion over at Talk:Super Smash Bros. Brawl. --Son (talk) 06:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the GA nom. --Son (talk) 06:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

FA!!!!

This article isn't even GA-Class! --Son (talk) 17:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not GA-class, but it's easily GA quality. If the article fails FA, then I'll nominate for GA, in which it will surely pass. By the way, you shouldn't expect too much from peer review—it isn't uncommon for an review to get closed without a single comment from another user. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 17:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I know, hence my above comment about why I initially nominated it for GA before withdrawing it. --Son (talk) 17:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't have opposed the GA had it been ready at the time, but it wasn't. By taking it to FA we can have the best of both worlds, because it will generate and feedback and we can always submit for GA if it fails. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Criteria

Although it is currently nominated, I thought I would still post the GA Criteria:

Wikipedia:What is a good article?

A good article has the following attributes:

1. It is well written. In this respect:

   (a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct; and

   (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:

   (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;

   (b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and

   (c) contains no original research.

3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:

   (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; and

   (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).

4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.
5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.
6. It is illustrated, where possible and appropriate, by images. In this respect:

   (a) all images used are tagged with their copyright status, and fair use rationales are provided for any non-free content; and

   (b) the images are appropriate to the topic, and have suitable captions.

Post what changes you feel should be made and we will start working on them. Trevor "Tinkleheimer" Haworth 02:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed that some of the grammar and wording of the sentences is kind of.....um.... awkward. I've been trying to proof it a little. Jareds2007 (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ahg! Why is this a Redirect from Wire Frames?

Nothing in this article mentions wire frames, and the article does not seem to relate to web site development, the subject area where I would expect to find some explanation of what a wire frame is and why people care. I will investigate. Jimgettman (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It's because there are things in this game walled "Wire Frames". But...I think it's be better is we re-direct FIGHTING Wire Frames rather then Wire Frames, because Wire Frames COULD be something else entirely un-related. :edit:...Ahem. It seems Fighting Wire Frames already redirects here. But the Ridirect on Wire Frame should not be there. :Edit again: And Wire Frames seems to be a DOUBLE Redirect. I'm taking it to AfD.Dengarde ► Complaints 00:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Scratch this, lemme try something...Dengarde ► Complaints

Okay done. It was being double re-directed. Fixed it. Dengarde ► Complaints 00:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Clones

I bought this up, and one person said he's looking into it. I still don't see it up. I would like to learn what the page said about the clone characters in a form of English that's not Babel Fish jargon. — NES Boy (talk) 20:50, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I did look into it, but I can't get a decent translation to make sense of it all. A proper Japanese translation is needed. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:55, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Advanced Techniques and Tournaments

I think this game has garnered enough attention over the years, that things like wave dashing, L-cancels, and the like should be added into the article SOMEWHERE. The game has also become huge tournament game in MLG. Please contact me if anyone approves, and I'll happily write it up sometime soon. -IH Flametiger67@aol.com/ThekolIH@gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.7.129 (talk) 03:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

The MLG info is already up. As for the rest, you'll have to show multiple reliable sources to justify its relevance and verifiability. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 09:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Smashwiki or Smashboards will do it either. I haven't seen any news sources talking about shffling or chain grabbing, but go ahead and give it look. I always like new citable info.--CM (talk) 15:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that these techniques need to be included, as they are a part of the game that is unique. If I were to read a Wiki article on a video game, I would like to know some of these things. Maybe just a mention that these techniques exist in the tournament section, but I would like to see them included. FlamingZelda (talk) 09:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

No, WIkipedia is not a guide. We give a general overview and leave the specific, nitty-gritty knowledge for other places, like the FAQs on GameFAQs, or other things. hbdragon88 (talk) 09:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on tournament content

Look IP, I've removed content that has absolutely no relevance to the article. A boy setting up a forum isn't relevant, and information relating to a frequent winner of contests should be restricted to that person's articles. I don't know your motives, but please discuss here as opposed to edit waring. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 17:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The information in the tournament section has been removed and the reinstated repeatly. All information has been cited by NON-TRAVIAL sources. I am a former wikipedia editor I retired from editing due to time consumption. The vandalised IP edit are not done by me. I was formerly valoem.

Previous discussion has kept the tournament section in it's current state. Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Melee/Archive3#To_keep_or_not_to_keep_the_tournament_section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Melee/Archive3#The_tournament_section_is_written_like_an_advertisement.

If you want to start another tournament discussion war be my guest however it would only be wasting both our times. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 18:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a dispute about whether to keep the tournament section, just to have your version, which includes irrelevant information. A while ago, I deleted useless content to form a much more concise and necessary section (in my opinion). Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

To keep a track of the information, please can we keep the discussion on this page? It's just easier this way as having it on my talk page discourages other people from joining. As for Ken Hoang, that info is relevant to him and not the game in itself; keep the information on his article, because individual success has nothing to do with the game in itself. Is there anything else on the previous version that you feel should be in this one? Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

As the winner of major tournaments and the rank best player i find it hard to believe he does belong in the article. Also Smashboards which is cited as the founding source of tournament should be in the article as well. I'm readding as concise as possible. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 18:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Please; consensus hasn't been reached. This is at FAC!! What's up there has errors and reads like an advertisement! I'm reverting; I suggest that you make changes in a sandbox or something before changing them. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 09:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

What ever errors are involved are not from the tournament section which is the only section I look after. Also I would like to state that you mentioned smashboards:

"In two separate issues, Nintendo Power covered the independent and corporate Smash scenes, including Smashboards, Major League Gaming, and FC3".

without previously mentioning what smashboards was which could lead to confusion. Do not remove information which I have cited. If you see any information that is not verifable please state it before changing. Both smashboards and Ken are verfiable. Keep in mind that I am the one that has discussed the tournament section in the past. My original version is the accepted version if you want to make changes you are the one that need to bring up this debate again. In fact I could revert to the previous version if needed however I feel that this new version is in fact the better written one. Do not change without discussion. Thank you. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 14:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Accepted by whom? The only person who accepts this is you. Both Smashboards and Ken aren't relevant. I've gone through this article and removed al the minutiae, nonsense, and OR to take it to a GA standard at least. Please don't readd it. The only thing that you feel needs mentioning is Ken and Smashboards, neither of which are relevant or require an explanation. By the way, your citations are invalid—you need a proper template, not just the URL. If you desperately feel indignant about it, alert somebody else so the discussion isn't confined to us two. I'm reverting your edit. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 14:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

By whom? Hows this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Melee/Archive3#To_keep_or_not_to_keep_the_tournament_section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Melee/Archive3#The_tournament_section_is_written_like_an_advertisement.

By the way wikipedian06 is deemed bad faith edit. This is the last time. I will come on my retired name if I must. I dont understand what you have to gain from removing information that is not cruft. If you want to open another discuss feel free, but removing cited information is vandalism, now im warning you (I wasn't before). 63.76.234.250 (talk) 15:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Also "isn't relevent" is your opinion. How is the best tournament player (who is deemed notable) not relevent to a section that discusses tournaments? 63.76.234.250 (talk) 15:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

By the sounds of it, that was a discussion about whether to keep a tournament section, and not a dispute about different versions. So you shouldn't really use that to assert consensus about a different issue. As I said, the info probably is irrelevant and cruft, but if you feel that it isn't, represent the changes in a sandbox or on a talk page before you add anything. The only changes that you are presenting are Ken and Smashboards; these are probably irrelevant, but nothing's stopping you from arguing their case. Please don't accuse me of vandalism; with the risk of sounding arrogant, I've turned a very poor article into something that is at least GA-class. As for the above comment, please remember that this article discusses tournaments in relation to SSBM; Ken's success is not related to SSBM in itself. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 15:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I said if you make changes without discussion it would be vandalism. The second argument The_tournament_section_is_written_like_an_advertisement was a discussion of rewriting the section which failed because of NPOV. I do agree that this section is better written more concise and includes all previous information. This section is most certainly still GA material as it was previously. Also you should take your own advice, keep in mind you changed the previous version without discussion. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 15:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I can tell you that no one here is committing vandalism. It's a simple case of edit warring, by you Valoem. Reverting other users edits on the simple unproven (not even accused) basis that they are sockpuppets is not a valid reason for removal (as I noticed in your edit summary). From my understanding, the Tournament section is supposed to cover official or officially sanctioned tournaments. Not random forum tournaments. .:Alex:. 17:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I've recently investigated the edits in question. This information does seem irrelevant and the revisions without these edits look much better than your revisions, Valoem. Also, don't try to accuse someone of vandalism because they wouldn't discuss it when you very well did the same thing and blatantly sockpuppeted, which you also tried to accuse someone else of doing. You very well could have initiated discussion before Ashnard did, yet you persisted to add your contested edits to the article. Don't try to get "holier than thou" when you've committed the crimes you're accusing people of doing. ♣ Klptyzm ^{Chat wit' me § Contributions} ♣ 18:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ironic had I immediately followed up these changes when Ashnard made the changes initially then would he not be the one acting in a edit war? Yet somehow I was accused. I do not understand how the initial arguments concluded in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Melee/Archive3#The_tournament_section_is_written_like_an_advertisement.

suddenly holds no grounds.. Perhaps there is a mis I am the one with the previous version therefore his edits are the contested one please check previous edits. If you want to remove information you do not feel is relavent please explain why. Without Smashboards there would be no tournament. It is a reason and source of tournament therefore it is notable. It was mentioned in Nintendo power and MLG prehaps you should check your sources. Also I have defended this article twice in the past and done so sucessfully he edited the article first from my original version. Ken Hoang is a notable person within the since he is a driving force and the most famous smasher please refer to precedence. - Starcraft#Legacy. I never have bad faith so please dont accuse my name you can accuse this ip if you want. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 19:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Had I been the one removing the information when there was clear opposition in the beginning, I would have tried to reach a resolution before reverting my edition, instead of your actions. As a matter of whose onus it is to argue their case, what you had done had entered info that violated MoS and had trivia inside—that shouldn't remain when this is at FAC. When I had entered the current information, nobody contested, which has left this revision for over a month now. Secondly, "From my original own"; please read up on WP: OWN. Also, this is not a matter of whether Ken is notable, just whether he is relevant to SSBM, which he isn't. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 19:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not being sarcastic here, but please tell me how Smashboards are relevant. I'm willing to listen. If they're nothing more than a forum operating competitions then it won't be included. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:00, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

If you are willing to listen you would have just read everything above. It is all explained. Is smashboards relevent? Of course it is. Without smashboards the tournament scene would not exist. Also I have left smashboards out for now. 63.76.234.250 (talk) 20:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I have two words for the statement you've just given: Original Research. .:Alex:. 20:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

You certainly are quick to jump to conclusions. It was cited in Nintendo power and MLG Pro. MLG states that smashboards created much of the competitive community through discussion of advance techniques. If it is not OR it most certainly would be relevent to the tournament section. Ken is relevent to the article just as Boxer is relevent to Starcraft. I didnt write Ken's biography I only mentioned him. Now you must ask yourself, would a person reading about the tournament section of SSBM be interested in Ken or Smashboards? Of course they would. What is wikipedia for if not for information and its amazing ability to link related topics? 63.76.234.250 (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:CCC. Ashnard has been WP:BOLD, nobody has objected until now. If an MLG press release actually states that Smashboards was instrumental to the tournament community, that wasn't cited until Ashnard outright removed it. hbdragon88 (talk) 22:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"MLG states that smashboards created much of the competitive community through discussion of advance techniques". Find me a quote that indicates that, please. Ken is related to tournaments, and thus only indirectly to SSMB; he isn't relevant to the article. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 10:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Without smashboards the tournament scene would not exist". Unless you prove otherwise, this is an assertion that you have made from a particular quote, which would be Original syntehsis/research. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 10:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just ran through your source and there's only two brief references to Smashboards: one a reference to their forums and the other a slight thing about their rules. Sorry, but unless you prove otherwise, your claims are unjustified. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 10:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

On Smashboards: There was a 4 page article in Nintendo power, in which Smashboards is discussed in detail. If you need relevance for why Smashboards is important, you need look no further than there. The problem of course is that it is an in print source. I have copies of the two issues that covered Smash tournaments, but I won't be able to provide the text until I return home from college in March (the copies, obviously, I don't take with me everywhere I go). If you need a textual support of Smashboards revelence that is also online, MLG is a series on the "greatest competitive games of all time". Here is the article for SSBM: http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/165239&query=node/165239&pagenumber=1. The following quotes are from the article: "Going over to smashboards.com gives one an idea of Smash’s influence; a thriving community continues to innovate and develop the game years after its release. In fact, Smash Bros. Melee is one of the few surviving competitive games played on an older-generation console system."

"Backed by Nintendo, it is no surprise that Smash was the most successful competitive fighter in Major League Gaming history. The top Smasher of all time, Ken, even went to Japan to compete in a tournament, linking the competitive communities together." "Smashboards is the place to go for Smash information, whether you are a new player with some basic questions or a rising competitor looking to amp up your game." Another quote from another article - http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/44016 "The Smash Tier List has been around for years, during which it has been subjected to a number of updates and revisions. Its origin is the Smash Back Room at Smashboards, the members of which are all highly knowledgeable tournament players" The next quote is from: http://www.mlgpro.com/?q=node/43951 "Wavedashing has become so influential in defining competitive play that even the writers at Nintendo Power know of its existence." Wavedashing is known to tons of non-competitive gamers because of the prevalence of Smashboards and the tournament scene (which is why the tournament section, and thus Smashboards, are relevant to the article). Thinking that the tournament section is only for tournament players doesn't take into the account that its influence is felt by almost anyone who owns the game. Here at college I run into casual players all the time in the dorms and almost all of them know about wavedashing (they are simply unable to do it, for lack of care, trying, what have you). Some notes: The IV whatever tournament isn't THAT notable. It was a large payout for its time, but the reality was it was too early to get much coverage. The 2006 MLG championship in Las Vegas gave out $36,000 in prizes. Ken took home $11,000 alone from the tournament ($4,000 was for winning the season points race, which I did not include in the $36,000, he took third at the tournament in singles for $3,000 and split his $10,000 first place doubles prize with Isai). The 2006 New York Playoffs for MLG had a similary high payout, with $5,000 for first place and roughly $22,000 in prizes. Regular season events all had about $8,000 in prizes in 2006. MLG's 2005 championship had about $15,000 in prizes. This year, the highest paying tournaments were: FCD with over $10,000 in prizes, EVO World with about $10,000 in prizes (can't remember if it was slightly over or under). SCC with about $8,000 in prizes. Pound 2 with about $7,000 in prizes. I don't think all these things should be mentioned in the article, I'm merely pointing out that that one tournament back in 2003 is pretty pointless, few people even remember it and the winner (Recipherus if memory serves) was regarded as the player to beat of the time period but hasn't made an impact since Ken began dominating the scene in 2004. I can provide sources from MLG for the prize payouts of FCD and all the 2006 events, and for the prize payouts of EVO World. I've spent some time compiling information for my own work, information which can't be used for this article (yet, we'll see if things ever get published) but you may think is interesting: I took 25 notable tournaments, in these tournaments, over $100,000 was given out as prizes (some of the tournaments were also small events, like the Midwest Circuit Championship that had a prize payout of about $1300 and only 41 attendants, it was only notable, for me, because it was the circuit championship). There were roughly 500 tournaments held through Smashboards in 2007, this exceeds the number of tournaments for every other game, in these if I had to GUESS about a quarter million - a half million in prizes were on the line, I'm going to start working with an actuary to get better estimates, this number is in no way scientific other that $500 over 500 tournaments (the average payout for the 25 tournaments I do have data for was about $4,000). MLG has now partnered with the Smashboards community in what it officially calls "The 2007 MLG Underground Smash Series" (this is cite able). Basically, MLG takes events that are run by Smash members, give these events a few staff members and some monetary support, and viola, the Underground Smash Series is born. As for MLG's relevence, it is THE most successful tournament organization in the country, and the world if you exclude PC gaming (and thusly SC). Most importantly though, it is the only gaming competition that is broadcast on standard cable networks (USA in 2006, G4 in 2007). Now MLG only broadcasts their Halo events, so this shouldn't be mentioned in the article, it is only important back here in discussion because, I would assume, some question the importance and validity of using MLG resources for information. Simply put, they are the official and one of the most important sources for competitive gaming. Sorry about the wall of text, I'm not very good with wikis. Alphazealot (talk) 16:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Information overload; it may take a while for me to make sense of it. Firstly, I need to know about who said what, specifically if you've got anything from Nintendo Power. Are any of the above quotes from Nintendo Power, as they are definitely reliable? By the way, the Smashboards is mentioned next to Nintendo Power, but only that they reported Smashboards. Secondly, it seems that all the sources and quotes up there are written by you, Alphazealot. Who exactly are you? Are you a member of this website who posts or what? I'm just trying to measure the reliability of this website and how the information is operated. Of course, we've already got an MLG citation up there, so we need to know about this. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 16:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, what I'm saying is that if they're blog posts from site members, then these can't really be used for anyhting. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 17:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Each of the quotes that I put in the previous post was from a feature article on Major League Gamings website (none of the quotes are from Nintendo Power, I need to reread the NP article and find quotes, which won't be possible for several months unless I decide to track down the old scan ins from 2005, which will be tedious). Do not confuse the feature articles on MLG with blog posts--feature articles have to go through MLG's editor before they get put on the website and I am paid for the work. I work as a journalist for MLG, specifically as their expert on Smash, for this I'm paid to write about the game and to travel to tournaments run by MLG to give first hand recaps (post event articles), its the same job as a journalist who would work for NBA.com. Some of the quotes are not from my own work, specifically the quotes from the "greatest competitive games of all time" are from a different writer for MLG (Brick). If you don't view MLG has a credible source for information then there isn't much I can do for you other than provide you reasons why that conclusion is inaccurate (mainly that MLG has sponsorship deals with: Red Bull, Boost Mobile, The Navy, Gamestop, and Old Spice. There have been other sponsors in the past and this may not be all of them, but these are the biggest sponsors. This, along side MLG having a TV show and having the largest and most professional tournaments in the country, should be reason enough to trust MLG, and thusly my writing in MLG's feature articles, as a reliable source). I don't consider blog posts or forum posts to be reliable and I know they should not be used for wikipedia entries. This is also important, because I don't care as much about the quality of my writing in blog/forum/wiki discussions (someone a year or so back tried to use a forum post I made as evidence in a wiki, much to my displeasure). As for me, personally, I've been to the following states for tournaments: Texas, Virginia, California, Nevada, Florida, Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, New York, New Jersey, and Maryland. I've been playing Smash competitively since 2003 and I've been writing for MLG since 2005. Along side this my writing has also been featured on a few other websites, mainly blogs, but also www.getyourtournament.com, a site which essentially only covers the Cali competitive gaming scene. Aside from all of this I'm also a moderator for the tournament forum of Smashboards and the Melee discussion forum there.

"By the way, the Smashboards is mentioned next to Nintendo Power, but only that they reported Smashboards." Not sure what you mean by this.Alphazealot (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"In two separate issues, Nintendo Power covered the independent and corporate Smash scenes, including Smashboards, Major League Gaming, and FC3". Sorry for lack of clarity, I was just referring to that sentence in the article. Right, thanks for clearing that up; I've explained the situation at Wikiproject Videogames for advice on what to do. The posts seem more credible than I first though, but I have a big reservation about neutrality and bias. I may be proven wrong, but how can I cite a reliable and unbiased source about Smashboard's relevance from a person who—self admittedly—is a moderator on their forum? I really think your best bet is them Nintendo Power issue. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess I should note that I worked for MLG as a writer before I became a moderator at Smashboards. My moderator job there, specifically in the tournament section, is actually largely because of the work I did with MLG. I'm considered an expert in my field (the field being Smash), citing the writing that is on MLG would, again, be no different then citing any other sports/esports website that is credible (and again, MLG is a credible organization, considering it holds the largest tournaments in the USA). If you want to point out statements, specifically the quotes I mentioned, that show bias, then please do so. I highly doubt you will be able to though, at least not towards Smashboards. In the 50+ articles I've written for MLG over the last 2 years I think I've mentioned Smashboards a TOTAL of 4 times. I write about Smash, the players who compete in tournaments, and about MLG (given that I work for the company and cover their tournaments). The slight bias you may be able to find is toward MLG, yet the articles that I took quotes from contain no such bias. In other words then: The articles meet verifiability standards, if you don't think so, please explain why. Also, even though I defended the moderator comment, the comment itself is pretty unnecessary, Smashboards operates completely independent of any other site, moderators are mostly chosen based on knowledge, and considering the vast knowledge I have of the game and constant exposure I have with the community and players who at the peak of the meta-game, then it makes sense that I be a moderator. Its like blaming a sportswriter who also contributes to voting for the Heisman candidate. They are more knowledgeable than just about anyone and it makes sense that they have a say in the voting, just as it makes sense that I help run and moderate a community of tournament players. I accidentally wrote over your last comment...not sure how to get it back... Alphazealot (talk) 20:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk: Verifiability#Need to know whether a source should be used. Take a look there. I've never pretended to have full knowledge of the policies, so I've seeked external advice. Feel free to argue your case there. Also, it's not a matter of whether you show bias, but your speaking from a position that needs to be relaible for an encyclopaedia. Being the moderator of that site—in my eyes—jeopardises the reliability. But who knows. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The first thing I want to point to, again, is that several of the quotes I listed were NOT written by me, instead, it was written by another writer for MLG. The position I speak from, in this talk page right now, has no bearing, the position that is spoken from in the articles that I've cited on MLG, are of a paid writer who is an expert on the game of Smash. I think, considering you are trying to edit this page, and in particular the tournament section, that you need to educate yourself a little more on eSports, both in America and around the world. It should help your understanding of just what tournaments are and what sort of influence they have. The problem now, and I totally understand this, is that the idea of eSports is still somewhat in its infancy. That being said, I decided to annoy myself and dig up the old NP article, which I will copy the text from now (actually I'm C/P the text of someone who took the time to write down the entire article, so keep in mind there are some mistakes with spelling/punctuation, this is merely for your own reference), keep in mind this is missing the text for captions, and in one of the captions Ken Hoang is mentioned.

"The Smash Circuit

Though much can be said about the game's bells and whistles, Smash is what it is partly because of its rabid fan base. Smash players comprise a passionate, community-oriented array of gamers that spans the globe. They all have their own nicknames, rules, and strong opinions about how the game should be played. And though Smashers are generally very competitive, the community thrives because of the excitement and good nature of its members. "Smashers approach the game seriously but with a healthy amount of humor and goodwill," notes Jason Rice, a Smash vet and tournament organizer for Major League Gaming. "Because of SSBM and Smash Boards, I've got friends all over the country that otherwise I would have never met and I'm very grateful to be a part of it."

Most Smash players consider smashboards.com - an unofficial website started in 1999 by a 13-year-old fan named Ricky Tilton - the hub of the community. Today, the site has almost 20,000 registered users and receives millions of hits each month. "I still remember the first person who tried advertising his tournament on the forums a few years ago," recalls Tilton (known in the Smash community as Gideon). "I simply glanced over his post thinking, 'Yeah, right, people are going to trust some random user on Smash Boards and fly across the country to a video game tournament!' Amazingly, however, it succeeded!"

Smash tournaments were born out of the desire of fans not only to show off their skills, but to see what other players around the world were doing in the game. During the early days of Smash tournaments in the US, the competitions were conceived and organized unofficially, using the smashboards.com forums to promote the events. Today, larger organizations such as Major League Gaming have included Melee in their offerings, and Smashers can now play for big prize money all around the world. The competition can be fierce, but those involved in the Smash community know that it's all in good fun. And it should be. How seriously can you take yourself when you're pooping Kirby off the edge of Mushroom Kingdom in a Yoshi egg? Fun is the nature of the game, and the affectionate fans know this well. "We're Nintendo fan," exlpains [sic] Rice. "We love the characters in the game and the individual gaming worlds that each of them has come from.... In comparison to other gaming franchises and companies that are relative newbies, we're players who were raised on Nintendo characters."

Not to say that Smash players are softies - hardcore Smashers are capable of feats in the Melee world that can blow the minds of even the game's creators. And it doesn't matter how long you've been playing Smash - there's always something new to see. "Playing in tournaments and being involved in a sommunity that loves the game as much as I do keeps the game fresh," explains Rice. "There's always someone showing up to tournaments with a new trick to learn or tactic to master." SSBM continues to evolve as players explore its deepest secrets. As Tilton puts it: "[SSBM] is never the same, no matter how many times you play it. There are always new situations and variables to deal with each time you play."

That isn't the full article, here are the scans that someone made, you may need a mirror to read the second page...don't know how that happened: Page 1- http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8113/ssbm16jm.jpg Page 2- http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8256/ssbm21wp.jpg Page 3- http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1577/ssbm36nr.jpg Page 4- http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8365/ssbm41jb.jpg

At this point I've shown you WAY more than should have been required for good faith, especially if you consider that I haven't edited the Smash tournament section here(at least significantly) in years. I've given you articles, written by me and others, and just because I'm talking to you right now doesn't make the articles I have written carry any less weight, nor does my position as a moderator on Smashboards effect my articles on MLGpro.com, considering, again, that I've mentioned Smashboards maybe a total of 4 times in 50+ articles. More importantly, the type of cross checking you're doing to my work is almost never applied to other writers who are known as authorities on their material. The problem just seems to be the simple fact that Smashboards is the hub for Smash, and for some reason when that gets mentioned *some* people think its advertising for the site, when in reality Smashboards needs no advertisement. In the NP article it mentions that there were 20,000 users on Smashboards. When that article was written Smashboards was the largest site for Smash, this is even more true now that the number of users has balooned to 80,000. Alphazealot (talk) 21:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the lesson—consider me educated. By the way, where has this article came from? What publisher do them images relate to? I need to know. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 23:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind about the above question; Iknow it's Nintendo Power now. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 23:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Plus, where are you getting the idea that being a moderator of a site doesn't make you biased. This is an encyclopaedia! Whatever you say, whether you believe yourself to be impartial or not, your position inhibits the comments from being considered neutral. Don't take this as a prsonal attack on your journalism—it has nothing to do with that. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 23:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo Power is a decent source, so if you want to mention something about Smashboards based from Nintendo Power with a proper citation, then I won't object. That's all I wanted—a reliabke source. Finally, I hope nobody minds if I omit the reference to Ken—he is relevant to the tournaments in themselves and not directly to SSBM. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 12:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel your trying to use my position as moderator for Smashboards as a way to dis include EVERYTHING I've written for MLG. Its like saying that the commissioner for the NBA is not allowed to say things ABOUT basketball and the NBA, when he actually has more credibility than just about anyone else, yes he is BIASED toward the NBA, but you can't say that just because he is biased that he is LYING or UNTRUTHFUL or UNRELIABLE when he says the NBA is the largest and most professional basketball organization in the world. Again, why is MLG a bad source? Consider, again, that both Smashboards and MLG are mentioned in the Nintendo Power article when it comes to community and to tournaments. Why would something written by MLG not be a valid source? This is the...I don't even know how many times I've asked. More imporantly though, why would these two quotes, that weren't written by me, be invalid? "Backed by Nintendo, it is no surprise that Smash was the most successful competitive fighter in Major League Gaming history. The top Smasher of all time, Ken, even went to Japan to compete in a tournament, linking the competitive communities together."

"Smashboards is the place to go for Smash information, whether you are a new player with some basic questions or a rising competitor looking to amp up your game."Alphazealot (talk) 17:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Disincluded? ...I'm sorry if I've offended you; I think you've seriously misinterpreted what's been said and are gauging meaning from the semantics alone. When I say something's unreliable, I just mean unreliable in this context, which it is, because of issues I've discussed. As for the NBA analogy—which you seem to love—if we were to measure the relevance of basketball by quotations, then a reliable source outside the basketballing profession will always be preferable. I realise that some quotes aren't attributed to you, but considering the strong links between both sites, I'm far more comfortable as a Wikipedian using Nintendo Power as a source. Also, please understand what the section's about; it's not a feature on the history of tournaments, but only the tournaments in relation to SSBM. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You dodged the question. Why is an article, written on a third parties website (MLG) an unreliable source? If you feel you've already explained it, could you please do so again so I could better understand. I feel you are holding this information to a standard rarely seen or used in wikipedia (IE performing, what amounts to background checks. I could have easily pretended to be a different person and just pointed to MLG as a source, and I believe you would probably have arrived at a different conclusion than you have. I'm arguing back here because I believe what you have done for this wiki entry is actually GOOD, which is why I'm not editing entries myself yet simply trying to convince you of the relevency of a source. I would also suggest you check the Basketball wiki page, as they discuss in it at length the professional leagues (the NBA, MLG is the NBA of US video gaming competition).)Alphazealot (talk) 18:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I thought I indicated that the main objection was your link to Smashboards, not the site's. As for the "Brick", I don't think I've said that his sources are unrelaible, just that Nintendo Power is preferable. NP are preferable because they are totally external from the Smashboards altogether; as you've said, MLG is linked with Smashboards in some new tournament, and many of the workers there are members at Smashboards (assumption). Please note, this doesn't make MLG unreliable, just NP preferable. Secondly, using real names is perferable in citations to aliases. Of course, all of this is under the assumption that "Brick" isn't another member at Smashboards. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As for the basketball page, that's barely cited, and the NBA is only used to verify rules. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 18:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Might as well throw in some third party sources on MLG, though they may not all be relevant to Smash (Halo 2 is the biggest game for MLG), but to the validity and importance of MLG:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12353167/ http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/071008 http://www.gamespot.com/news/6163418.html http://www.gamespot.com/news/6152992.html http://www.gamespot.com/news/6147757.html http://www.gamespot.com/news/6153008.html In the previous link, there is a quote that says: "Ken and Isai haven't lost a Smash Brothers match in years, it sometimes seems. We are pretty broad and deep when it comes to talent" http://www.gamespot.com/news/6110888.html EGM (Electronic Gaming Magazine) also did a print article on Ken, calling him one of the top 5 most deadly gamers in the world and the best Smash player on the planet. I'll have to find the article and scan it so you can believe me, but know that outside sources, that aren't just online, exist. Alphazealot (talk) 19:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Just remembered a very nice news article written about Smash, probably one of the more incitement ones, its a good read: http://thephoenix.com/Article.aspx?id=28078&page=1 Alphazealot (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Sorry, but what's your point here? I haven't disputed the importance of MLG. As for Ken, I don't doubt that he's notable; his article survived an AfD, but that doesn't make him relevant to SSBM. I'm sure he's a big guy in tournaments, but that's got nothing to do with what the section in the article's about. Oh yeah, please don't try to wipe over my posts. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 19:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You've disputed quotes from articles written on MLG's website. If I wiped over your post it was an accident, if you think, after all this time, I actually care enough to wipe over a post or unfairly edit this wiki or anything of that nature than I apologize, but it should be obvious based on the content I've already posted that I clearly have good intentions (even if you think they are biased) and not malicious ones. If I understand correctly then, the best tournament player has nothing to do with the tournament subsection of this wiki? Alphazealot (talk) 19:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The point is I'm provided you a wealth of knowledge in third party sources at this point yet you still dispute everything I've said as biased, when in reality I haven't even said anything, I'm merely arguing over the validity of using my writing as a source, for articles here or anywhere. Part of making the succesful argument for my writing as a source is showing MLG as an authority on video gaming, which I did in my previous post with...what? 8 links to outside articles from major news sources.Alphazealot (talk) 19:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, I now it was an accident. You're correct, the best player has nothing to do with this section. His link to SSBM is only indirect. This section doesn't document the history of tournaments; it's just a brief mention of the relation of SSBM to tournaments. We don't need to mention the winner of the tournaments, because it's beyond the meaning of the section. By the way, I don't see how these sources have any effect on your neutrality towards Smashboards. As a matter of semantics, when I say bias, I don't mean a conscious intention to embellish the truth, I'm referring to your position on the subject. I've never disputed that MLG is an authority. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 19:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If you don't dispute MLG as a valid source than any of my writing found on MLG's website that is or once was a feature article is also a valid source as it is paid for and edited (by MLG) material. That is all I am saying. Alphazealot (talk) 19:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Your detailing it as if you and MLG are the same entity—you're not. You can't say that MLG's reputation as an organisation negates your involvement with Smashboards. In the broad sense of journalism, there's nothing wrong with that involvement; it's just that I don't think I should use your evidence to assert the impact of Smashboards because of this. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I need to go offline now for about an hour, so don't expect any quick responses. Thanks. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 20:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Once MLG publishes anything I write it is an endorsement of truth by the company (as in it supports the writing as fact). It would be the same thing of any author for any publication, this is the point I think your missing. Bias, while it may exist within the writing, has no effect on the writings validity as a source once it is reviewed and published on a credible website. Alphazealot (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)