Talk:L98A1 Cadet GP Rifle

I fire the L98A1 on a regular basis, and would be happy to answer any questions within my knowledge. haz (user talk) 15:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I, too am a cadet, which fires the L98A1 Cadet CP rifle regularly. It would be of interest to note that the Cadet GP rifle can, indeed, be fitted with a SUSAT and with a flash supressor, similar to the SA80.

I am not sure about the claim that old L85A1s have been "converted" to L98A1s. Firstly, the MoD are refusing to repair borken L98A1s; instead they harvest the parts for the SA80 IW and LSW (parts for the SA80 are either no longer being produced, or are few and far between).

Second, the L85A1s are in the process of being converted to the L85A2. L85A2s are not new rifles, simply conversions of old rifles. It does not make sense that the L85A1s are being converted to Cadet GP rifles, when there are units in various combat theatres around the world, which, still, do not have the L85A2.

ATM, there is a worry about which weapon will replace the L98A1 when the SA80 family becomes obsolete. It is possible that the Cadets will, possibly, continue to use the L98A1, maybe using old L85s for spare parts, or fixing the SA80s in "single shot" and using them as Cadet weapons. It would be intersting to hear people's views on how this problem will resolve. Yasmar arabbat 21:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Just been cleaning up

I've changed the "training" section so it would make more sense (read more as a training aid than an informative article) cheers aye.

I've just added a weapons info box to this article, but i don't have all the info neccesary. Does anyone know the Production period, weight, barrel length, or number built of the GP? Also, has anyone got any photos of it with the iron sights? It would be more appropriate, given that this is the configuration of the vast majority of the rifles. Finally, sources would be handy, but i can't find anything trustworthy online.

Also, the bit about the iron sight index being affected by using the carrying handle as a handle doesn't seem to be overly accurate - see discussion at Talk:SA80 -- Lordandmaker 00:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, the part about training doesn't fit with my experiences. I never trained with a DP rifle, and every excercise was a blank firing one - what else could we do? Point and shout 'bang'? That's true for all the Cadets i've come accross, from CCF and ACF. -- Lordandmaker 12:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Likewise. I've never heard of a DP GP either (though one of our No8s had had its butt replaced with one from a DP weapon at some point in its history). "Point and shout bang" exercises did and no doubt still do happen, usually either to conserve stocks of blank or because the DS can't be arsed with the more stringent requirements in force when cadets are issued with any kind of rounds.

A lot of this article is bullshit in my experience - a common ocurrence in the Cadets where most people are isolated in little groups with widely-varying training and the turnover is huge as people grow up and move on. Misconceptions and individuals' pet theories quickly become passed around as fact. Of course I realise that I'm susceptible to this too, but as someone who instructed on this weapon every Tuesday for two years, shot with it (full-bore) every Wednesday for three, read the manuals avidly (sad git that I am) and wrote a training guide for future instructors, and subsequently was trained on the IW at Sandhurst during a GYC I hope I'll be believed when I assure you I'm not pulling *everything* I say out of my arse. I never like to base my argument on my credentials, but as Lordandmaker says there's little in the way of public documentation on this subject (a reference to the Beige Book wouldn't hurt, but as it's Restricted it can't be used as a proper source).

That little essay out of the way, I'm going to go and add my tuppence to the article. PeteVerdon 21:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, fair point on the 'point and shout bang' excercises. I remeber using 'log mortars' and 'log laws' when there weren't enough rifles to go round...

I remember seeing, fairly recently, a book on British rifles in an army surplus shop. I'll see if it's still there, and if we can reference it, presuming i can remember *which* shop it was in. Lordandmaker 03:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Test

I've just mentioned the skill at arms test. In my contingent this was always carried out by a regular NCO from the Cadet Training Team, but does anyone know whether this was actually required? It would make a certain amount of sense (I can think of more than one CCF officer who would have happily passed everyone however incompetent they were) but I can't remember reading anywhere that it was. PeteVerdon 22:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain the NCO from the CTT was needed, purely on the basis that my SAA test was postponed at CCF because the one we'd 'booked' had been double booked.

That said, i don't recall there being anyone special doing it when i went to the ACF, though, given that i'd already passed it with the CCF, there would be little cause for me to notice. I know a couple of people who went far enough in the ATC to have ended up organising SAA tests, so i'll check with them when i see them.Lordandmaker 03:09, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

In our CCF, the Officers are allowed to do the SAA Tests. We have been told that an annual test is manditory, is that correct? If so, this has not been enforced very well...

I've never heard of an annual test for cadets. The regular army (and presumably the TA) have the Annual Personal Weapon Test which somebody may be getting confused with. The APWT is more about actual shooting than drills, though I'm sure anyone who couldn't unload their weapon safely would be picked up. PeteVerdon 22:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Our CCF has a summer camp in Germany this year! As we can't take the Cadet GPs out of the country, we are borrowing some SA80s!!! I wonder if we'll need to pass a shooting safety test beforehand, or simply be tested on stripping and assemblying (as that is the only part which differs)?

Has anyone else been on a similar camp?

Yasmar arabbat 16:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

My CCF did a couple of camps in Germany after I'd left; like you they used IWs instead of GPs. As far as I know they didn't all do the IW/LSW test, though I'm pretty sure that by the book they should have done. Stripping the gas parts will be new to you if you haven't been trained on the LSW yet; there's one tricky bit (getting the gas rod through the hole above the breech) and one potentially-serious bit (putting the gas plug in with the detent pin pointing downwards so that it clicks into the gas channel in the block and can't be removed). Other than that, you also have to remember to use the correct hand on the cocking handle and holding open device; the by-the-book stoppage drills vary a bit too, but not enough that you won't be able to sort things out. Oh, and the "forward assist", but that's usually unnecessary anyway. PeteVerdon 16:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, i don't recall doing an annual test, or even a threat of one. Though there were rifle handling tests/modules in each of, or at least most of, the star levels.

the L98A1

I am a cadet NCO and have been a cadet for quite a while now I have fired the L98A1 many times both in tranning and field craft and have found it an Okay weapon to fire. for inexperianced cadets the weapon jams quite often however this is usually the cadets fault, the GP is a good weapon in the sense of jams it does not jam if you clean and take care of it and if you do get a jam it is usually quite easy to clear. However I have found that most of the problems with the L98A1 are to do with the extended cocking handle assmbley and magazine release catch. I have found that these parts are normal the cause of much trouble. The cocking handle can get very stiff infact I have seen adults have trouble cocking an L98A1 before, I have also seen someone rip a cocking handle off their weapon because it was so stiff, this was by acciddent. The magazine cactch also over time losses it's "springgness" and will not click when you incert a magazine.

There has been so talk through the cadet force recently of the LSW being removed form cadet service due to the goverment not liking cadets with full automatic weapons? There is at the momet a rule of 1 LSW per company in a battalion. I have never fired the LSW and have only seen about 10 in my whole cadet life and I have only seen 1 being fired ever.

Losing the LSWs would be a shame. They're incredibly easy to shoot (much more so than a GP) - it feels almost like you're just putting the pointer on the target and poking a hole in it. Obviously having automatic is nice, though I've never been in a position to let off big bursts - if you're doing target shooting then two-round "bursts" are the way forward if you want to keep your rounds on target. I even have a little "LSW Champion Shot" trophy from 4-Div CADSAM '99 to prove I can do that :-) PeteVerdon 21:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Random stuff

Barrel length is 495mm, not 518mm - apparently they shaved a few mils off during production to improve the balance ... and then had to stick a whacking great weight on the end when that one went tits-up...

Re muzzle velocity: simple maths - shorter barrel, different time/pressure curve, lower muzzle velocity. LSW chronos at about 970m/s according to John Hobbis Harris' SAA+Shooting Pocketbook, no way will the L98 get near that with a 10cm shorter barrel.

Production dates - most/all L98s I've come across are serialled as 1987 batch (year is given by the first two digits of serial number, eg. UE87Axxxx would indicate 1987, UE88Axxxx 1988 production, etc).

BFA - won't fit for the same reason bayonets won't fit (in theory!).

For the record, I'm an ATC SNCO.

80.41.106.171 22:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The GP

who ever said the L98A1 is bolt action is a fool who doesn't know thier riles. The Gp has a cocking handle not a bolt. Therefore it can not be a bolt action rifle. Next time you decide to write about something may I suggest that you research very carefully and if you did research it change the source you research ftom!!!!

Problems

Added this section based on my experience with the L98 while an ATC Cadet and NCO. Can't find any online examples myself, so if it counts as OR please feel free to remove or source. MartinMcCann 21:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

pictures

Added a Picture or two please comment on them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Noltyboy (talk • contribs) 12:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

MISCONCEPTIONS

This article was obviously written by a cadet and so are some of the comments

Lets clear things up, firstly, someone claims there is no such thing as a DP(Drill Purpose) GP rifle, incorrect, every det has at least 2 or 3 DP rifles to hand, they are marked as such in white paint have the barrel cut out and the welded up firing pin, these weapons are needed as live weapons are no longer permited to be stored in buildings that do not have solid brick walls(the old fashioned wooden cadet huts).

Second, cadets have always been allowed to use automatic weapons such as the old Bren or the current issue LSW, the only reason for the shortage of LSW is due to a shortage in the regular forces, cadet issue LSW weapons having had far less use rounds wise than service weapons, plus SUSATS aint cheap!

Third, the original production run of L98 rifles were converted versions of L85A1 rifles, no more have been made since, you can tell this from the remaining hole and "R" "A" markings where the change lever would have been located, many cadet weapons have L98 markings stamped over L85A1 markings, only the hanguard was specialy marked as a L98 component due to the oil bottle clip inside the top cover, also, there will never be an "A2" version of this weapon, the modifications to rifle 5.56 were made purely to enhance the functioning of the gas system and bolt, the gas parts were changed and the cocking handle improved to help cocking and the "forward assist" drill if needed, the L98 needs no such modification as it already has a bloody great big cocking handle to push on in the event of the bolt failing to close, may I also add that the L98 does not take a blank firing adaptor or flash hider(a factory fitted component), the BFA is not needed and will not fit the muzzle any way as it lacks the NATO standard 22mm flash hider for it to fit on, the BFA is designed to bottle neck escaping gas at the muzzle and provide sufficiant pressure to operate the gas parts of a L85A2, it is not considered to be a safety feature, the L98 has no gas parts. There is also no such thing as an "Emergency Battle Sight" on a L98 rear sight, the flip sight has a "battle setting" of 300 in the down setting and adjustable sights when you flip the leaf sight up, the "Emergency Battle Sights" are fitted on top of a SUSAT, they resemble the sights from a hand gun or SMG and consist of a ghost ring and front sight blade, these sights are very crude and will only put the rounds down range in roughly the right direction, no one ever uses them as it is far easier to just point shoot the weapon at close range , plus I have never seen a broken SUSAT

Rant over

Nonsense

This will create a weapon which can produce tighter groupings (without the need to cock after each shot). This sentence is nonsense. Firing a set of rounds quickly will not provide a tighter grouping. Every shot must be correctly aimed in semi-automatic mode. A "good shot" will achieve a tight grouping regardless (or how did those people manage it with the Lee Enfield .303?). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TinyMark (talk • contribs) 21:18, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

The .303 and it's .22 conversion are a more accurate rifle. The Semi-automatic nature of the L98A2 would make it more accurate for most people over the A1, as coking the rifle is diffucult to achieve without changing your posture, especially for cadets. It could also be argued that thr reduced kick because of the gas parts would have an influence on frouping, with he A1 having a higher muzzle velocity. PiP 00:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

WHT

The air cadets must now pass a weapons handling test every 6 months to fire either the .22 or the L98, is this also true in the Army and Sea cadets? PiP 00:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep, a WHT must have been passed in the last 6 months for a cadet to be able to fire the L98 rifle. --86.140.197.29 22:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

In my county, cadets have to have passed a WHT at least 48hrs prior to firing any weapon(82.34.146.59 (talk) 13:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC))

ATC and blanks?

"Air cadets are no longer allowed to perform blank firing excersices, as of 2005."

ACP45B (NATO unclassified, though not available in the public domain) states that the air cadets are forbidden to fire blank rounds. I remember reading that when I was studying for my Staff Cadet interview ~1999. Was this just a reminder from wing with increased numbers of cadets going on the army cadet leadership course where you can fire blanks? I don't think it represents a change in policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.5.173.29 (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)