Talk:Big lie

WHY IS THEIR A LINK TO AND A DISCUSSION OF THE SOAP THAT COMES FROM INFAMOUS HOLOCAUST DENIER DAVID IRVING'S WEBSITE http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/soaptale.html

How is one to fix the problem with the Schopenhauer nested link? --Daniel C. Boyer

There was an extra pair of square brackets - I've taken them out, and it's OK now. --Camembert

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How to include information about "Cocaine: The Big Lie" campaign (in US) in article? --Daniel C. Boyer

My sister used to wear a self-designed t-shirt, "Reality: The Big Lie." --Daniel C. Boyer

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Added mention of the big lie as a generalized technique in propaganda. It seems this is the far more common usage of the term and merits mention.

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Perhaps someone could add a mention of the argumentum ad nauseam, the logical fallacy which this technique uses

Contemporary Examples Needed

Agree with the above comment re cocaine. More modern examples of this insidious techinque are sorely needed, esp as it seems to be the principle technique of George W. Bush's administration with respect to the WMD fiasco. As well, Rush Limbaugh and the other talk radio rightards like Bill O'Reilly seem to be enthusiastic and expert users of the Big Lie and the gaping ignorance of their audience doesnt even know the origins of their method. -User:User

perhaps the Saddam Hussein - al-Qaeda link that was claimed to exist?

Or how about the claim by liberals that Bush lied about WMDs as oppose to recieving bad intelligence. Al Franken and other left wing pundits repeat this hourly.

The "claim" is not made by only liberals as you seem to suggest. Labeling someone as a member of a [political] group you don't like doesn't change the truth of the matter. Research Valerie Plame & her husband for the truth on the Iraq/yellow cake/WMD issue. It's not simply a "claim" as you say; Bush lied but has plausible deniability on his side. Try to look beyond the political labeling system which only serves as a distraction from real, important events that don't get enough attention. Peace. - 68.105.184.37 (talk) 23:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, McCarthyism was a great example of the Big Lie technique. I don't know enough about it to add in a reference to it, but perhaps someone else does?VetteDude 21:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

World War I

So where did Germany lose WWI? According to the WWI article Germany was forced by military means to sign an armistice. While I must concede it's not the same as total oblivion, I still think it counts as "in the field". Any comments? Shinobu 17:46, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

The Germans, particularly under the Nazi regime accused the victorious powers of using propaganda and other shady techniques to undermine the German morale on the homefront. The 1917 Revolution was already in full swing after the Russians had been knocked out of the war and the German Bolsheviks were trying to stir up a conflict in Bavaria as well. There were talks about signing an armstice or puting the war on hold so the Germans could deal with the internal problems, which they later accused the western Allies of having incited in the first place. Thats kind of an oversimplification and there were a number of factors, but essentially the moment the Germans began talking peace the support for continuing the war bagan to collapse among the German people. The Allies, particularly US President Wilson promised Germany that it would not be forced to concede territory among numerous other lies. The Allies then imposed the treaty of versailles on the Germany, threatening to start the war back up again if the Germans did not give in. Because the German people had become so demoralized and were fighting internal dissent from Communist elements they could no longer sustain a war effort, thus they were defeated, not militarily but through underhanded trickery, subterfuge, deception and propaganda. The Nazis according to their own words behaved as they did and used sophisticated propaganda in order to 'innoculate' the German people from being undermined from within again in the future, to unite the country into a single mass conciousness whereby it could never be divided by external influences. --Nazrac 06:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Was or wasn't, the internal Communist political threat largely lead by Jewish elements. This explains alot of Hitler's, et al anti-semitism. Whether it was or wasn't lead by Jewish leaders - I think Hitler and most of Europe thought so ( maybe - incorrectly ). Whoever the Communists or their leaders were it appears the Jews got blamed.159.105.80.141 19:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a topic without a head or tail

When i read this i initally couldn't make head or tail since the introduction was missing and seems poorly phrased. This looks more like a cut and paste article than something that explains some concept.

Goebbels' quote

I have been searching for a while now, trying both English and German keywords, but I have not been able to find the quote that is attributed to Goebbels. While me not being able to find it is no proof in itself, I personally don't believe Goebbels actually said or wrote it in the form stated, or something resemblant, until I come across the original document containing said quote. Shinobu 23:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If it is false then the popular definition of "the big lie technique" is itself a pretty good example of big lie technique. But of course, no one could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.Jim Bowery 07:46, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The article shows the "quoted" locution to be an artifact of the US, not a verifiable Goebbels quote. I cannot read much German but found no such thing in the translated version of "Michael," a 1929 novel by Goebbels. What is interesting in the American context is that here, in the Wikipedia, you can read the planks of US political platforms. I can attest that in none of the US party platforms from 1840 through 1968 is there a single admission that the party doing the writing was ever in the wrong. The Democratic platform of Reconstruction days refers to the Civil War as "happily" ended--to give one of the best examples. Before the Wikipedia we used to have to look these up in "National Party Platforms," published circa 1972. The quote as an attempted tarbrush backfires like one of Walt Kelley's Pogo cartoons I dare not quote here. translator 20:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Alternate meaning?

The article says This technique, he believed, consisted of telling a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe anyone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". The journal Skeptical Inquirer, Vol 30, #2, 3/06, page 44 saysThere is a theory in psychology called the "Big Lie" - if you tell a colossal lie often enough, people will tend to believe it's at least partly true. Is this the same thing, or something different? Bubba73 (talk), 05:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Shouldnt this be mentioned as an exelent example of a Big Lie?

Someday -when passions cool this of course would be a perfect example - a lie so big it was almost unbelievable that it could be untrue. 159.105.80.141 (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't think this should be merged

I don't think this article should be merged into Dolchstosslegende. That article discusses a general theory, which did not originate with Hitler, whereas this article mainly describes a propaganda technique, of which that theory was a prominent part. If it were a really short article I could see it as a section within Dolchstosslegende (something like Use by Hitler as the "big lie"), but it's too long for that, so I think ought to have a separate article, although perhaps Dolchstosslegende should have a "see also" link pointing here. --Delirium 06:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Another example!

Alright wikipedians, this is... possibly... unprecedented in this topic. What? A more contemporary (though not completely) that ISN'T controversial! Can you believe it? Alright: I believe it was elaborated on more in the movie, but I do think the book has it down pretty well too: Matilda by Roald Dahl. In it, Ms. Trunchbull is said to "go the whole hog" and something along those lines; it is right after she hurls a girl through the window by the girl's pigtails. I don't have the book with me, unfortunately, so I can't quote it. But at any rate, if anyone can, I think this would be a less esoteric example of the Big Lie in practice.

Reading the article I catch that the Big Lie concept is somehow related to Hitler. However, is Hitler advocating Big Lies or is he saying that Jews use Big Lies. Without reading MeinKampf I would susprct the second interpretation - any German readers know the answer. The article should be clearer.159.105.80.141 15:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Also the Goebbel's lack of verification of a quote we have all come to know and love seems really historically important - particularly if a quote was made up ( by whom ).159.105.80.141 15:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Easy enough to find - MeinKampf ( wiki link ) Chapter 10. The quote is carefully excised in most sources to omit that Hitler was referencing Jewish forces. He wasn't advocating its use, just warning Germans, etc to beware of the Big Lie. I don't think this is probably a new concept with Hitler - he just used examples in his book. How does this rate a wiki article? 159.105.80.141 19:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Went back and read the opening sentence to the article - about Hitler developing the technique of the Big Lie - instead of saying Hitler developed the technique it would be more accurate to say he was exposing/warning about it.159.105.80.141 19:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The US pscychological profile - Goebbels - seems suspiciously close to what we now believe Goebbels said - a good paraphrase ( question was it a German to English or English to German paraphrase?159.105.80.141 19:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

"developed" by Hitler?

Is it really appropriate or accurate to say that the Big Lie was "developed" by Hitler, when really it was (as he saw it) recognized and implicitly criticized by him? - the academically surplus parenthetical qualification being necessary in, shall we say, a topic as emotive as this —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.143.159.75 (talk) 21:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

My sentiments exactly. The article attempts to portray the "big lie" concept as some lying technique invented and used by Adolf Hitler, rather than an observation that was made in Mein Kampf with regards to the political climate in Europe at the time. We see examples of the big lie all around us today in modern politics. The problem with Hitler, is that far from being an incredible liar, he was actually brutally honest and said alot of things that were politically incorrect in his day (and even more so by todays standards) yet he was able to convey them in such a manner that the subtle and underlying thruths showed through in a way that every common person could indentify with and understand. Lies are an incredibly poor substitute for the truth, as they become more transparent and distorted with the advantage of hindsight. Time has a sort of property that sorts the truth from the allegatory and disolves away lies from the truth. The fact is Hitler was not despised in his day for being a liar, but rather for being very skilled at exposing the lies of his opponents, and because he told the truth at any cost. We still see today the after effects of this, still Neo-Nazis follow this man's teachings with a religious fervor, still his ideas hold weight in in modern contexts, and still the status quo politicians laugh on one side of their face at "right wing extremism" and cringe on the other from the mere thought of being outshined by them. The fact that Hitler and his National Socialist doctrine hold such powerful influence even today in the face of supression by the current system politics should reveal the subtle truths of its nature. This is in stark contrast to Bolshevism and the other extremist ideologies from that era whose relevancy and truthfulness continues to thin and dissolve beneath the scrutiny of hindsight while Hitler only continues to become a more powerful icon. When we come to understand this, we see why Hitler never tried to benefit on the short term by using cheap or convenient lies, because they always unravel later. The fact that Hitler hasn't faded into the footnotes of history like so many of his opponents should be attributed to the fact that only truth and the avoidance of lying has such power to preserve ideas. --Nazrac 11:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

A few days ago I was surprised to see the Big Lie article completely rewtitten. It was accurate and a considerable upgrade from what is now - and in the past - being used. Am I on the wrong site/page? Is there a way to find out who is the author of the current article - the previous one? Who controls the article content - noone? The current attempt seems to hope that noone has/will read Mein Kamp or has/will do even the least bit of independent reading on Goebbels,etc.

PS It appears to be easy to check old versions - the article, back a couple of years ago, was alot better - almost like an encyclopedia. Wiki appears to be getting more political with time. Good work, it will either get more factual or get laughed at - it can only get better. 159.105.80.141 17:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

As to the original point here, yes, there appears to be some amount of confusion by virtue of the fact that Mein Kampf does not endorse but rather denounces the big lie. The fact that the Nazis seemingly used the big lie elsewhere subsequently is relevant to the article and the point, but is a potential source of confusion, as it does not directly relate to the fact that Hitler had originally accused his enemies of using it, nor is it a function of that fact. If the Nazis are to be accused of having mastered the big lie technique, this point should not be conflated with the largley unrelated denunciation of it in Mein Kampf. It is my impression that if a given individual is to be characterised as having "developed" the big lie, that would be Goebbels, not Hitler. Hitler merely coined the term. Consequently, I am going to modify the opening to reflect this --Yst 18:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Long before Hitler et al were born the "big lie" was well established. A quick browse of the internet gives Arthur Schopenhauer ( early 1800s ) who described the phenonmenon and even attributed it to the Jewish race. I am sure that many others beat Hitler to the punch - wiki seems to want to "adjust" history ( really hilarious to see it done in the Big Lie" article.) I can think of Lucifer - wasn't he called the chief of liars ( several thuoosand years before Hitler ) - I bet a classical scholar could find Latin and Greek texts on the "big lie". You are giving Hitler far too much credit for new ideas.159.105.80.141 13:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

This is getting to be hilarious - the "Big Lie" article has completely changed again. The "Big Lie" appears to be a big lie.159.105.80.141 12:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

RE Goebbels' quote - if noone seems to be able to find where he said it, does anyone know where/who said he said it first. It may be possible to trace backwards on this - I am sure someone has already done the legwork, maybe some wikian remembers, thanks. This would make a great example for this article - how propaganda/rumor/etc can create a big lie, etc In a similar vein - wiki can't have been the first - who first attributed the big lie originating from Hitler, this would be another example of either bad translation/poor reading skills/propaganda/etc leading to a big lie. 159.105.80.141 15:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Context!

This article as it is fails in clearly explaining the context in which Hitler used to expression 'Big Lie' which is the heart of this subject. Until this is done, the article is completely insufficient and utterly useless. --68.188.70.138 20:35, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I found hitler using this in chapter 10 (Ursachen des zusammenbruches(WHY THE SECOND REICH COLLAPSED)) Mein Kampf 1938 342-346 auflage munchen (N?DAP) on page 252. The english translation of the text in wich the only two instances of Big Lie are found;

But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice. All this was inspired by the principle--which is quite true in itself--that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes.

For more information j.vander.meulen@onsneteindhoven.nl I have the German, Duch, and english version of Mein Kampf

For contempory examples in Dutch politics. The telling of richt wing that left wing is spending to mutch euro's while figures show the opposite. Or that economy is going bad (Pim Fortuin) under Purple while figures show the opposite. The telling that the main problem is immigration, etc. etc.. The big lie technique is wildly usen by richtwing politicians nowedays.

Depending on your viewpoint - Hitler may have defined the Big Lie by making a Big Lie ( Jews and WW1 loss - or a lie versus faulty analysis etc etc etc ). A Big Lie inside a Big Lie - like one of those Russian dolls.159.105.80.141 18:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Such a claim can only be grounded in pure speculation and is thus a moot point. At-any-rate, Wikipedia has a strict NPOV policy. Therefore, the correct thing to do is to explain Hitler's use of the term 'Big Lie' within its proper context. No more, no less. --71.10.168.250 21:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• • • • • • • • • • ATTRIBUTED TO GOEBBELS **********************************

If I recall correctly, the quotation is attributed to Goebbels by Wiliam L. Shirer in his classic history: "The Rise & Fall of The Third Reich." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.133.0.13 (talk) 18:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Heh. Shirer, eh? Well, let's see Mr. Shirer's source, if he even has one. --Grimgerde (talk) 20:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

The opening sentence makes no sense!

"Big Lie is a propaganda technique in which the lie is so complex that the public will either dismiss it as impossible or choose not to believe it out of willful ignorance." So the propaganda's usefulness lies in the fact that the public won't believe in it? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Who wrote this? Esn (talk) 23:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Plato?

How is that new text added to the introduction by Thommmurt relevant? Who equated that to a "Big Lie"? Esn (talk) 13:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The heading to this article asks for more citations. What specifically needs more citations?159.105.80.141 (talk) 20:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)How this article reached it's current level is beyond me - gradually someone out there dragged it kicking a screaming into something actually approaching an encyclopedic article - congratulations to whoever you are ( you must have the scars to show ).159.105.80.141 (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)