Talk:Belgrade offensive

One sided

This is very one sided if I say so myself, but at this time I have no time to do the research on Germans and their allies, notable the Serbia AG on which I have virtually no information--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this article is very one-sided. There are some good information about the German side in the German Wikipedia article, using Google Translate I could get a better English translation (and information) than the Russian article. I'm not sure how to fit them here, though. Someone else might take a look and improve this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlphaBravoCharlie (talk • contribs) 21:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Grammar

Wow, this is a lot of info, but please be more careful with the grammar. It's hard work cleaning up and preserving all the information, I'll do my best. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I would appreciate if you did not. I am tossing around reverting you completely ot just undoing your edits partially--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

What! why? I'm "tossing around" rewriting the whole article because it's full of unreferenced info. The article is at least readable now, though I'm not sure how correct it is. I really doubt, for example, that two whole Soviet Fronts were engaged in the liberation of Belgrade, I'll look it up. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, you shoudl have looked to see who and when edited last and contact that person if it was recent. Secondly, you are not adding referenced material. This article needed a complete rewrite. You should have seen it before my previous edits. Thirdly, it was not the the Yugoslav Partisans, bu the Yugoslav Army that was formed shortly prior to the operation, one of the reasons Tito went to Moscow. The Croats were not some collaborators like local police but fully fledged armed forces in units and such. I would like to collaborate on editing, but do little bits at a time and try to reference as much as you can, ok?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

(Well, sources I found say that the 4th Guards Mechanized Corps, the 75th Rifle Corps, and the 5th Independent Motorized Rifle Brigade are the only Soviet units engaged in the actual battle.[1])

Ok, I don't want to sound "aggressive" here or anything, but

1) who's talking about unreferenced info!? The whole article is completely unreferenced, and you're criticizing me for adding unreferenced info. I mostly only rewrote sentences in English grammar, the first section was unreadable and packed with mistakes (as is the rest of the article) here's an example:

"against Nazi Germany and its Croatian and the Serbian and Chetniks during the Great Patriotic War"

The "Serbian" wikilink actually leads to the Croatian Home Guard, while the "Chetniks" wikilink leads to the Serbian State Guard (their bitter enemies). This is completely wrong even if we ignore the fact that the Croatian Home Guard and the Chetniks had almost nothing to do with the Belgrade Offensive. Furthermore, the whole text is written as if it was a bad translation from the Russian Wikipedia.

2) why should I have contacted you, are you in charge of the article? Third, the Yugoslav Army was formed on March 1 1945,

3) the People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia are far more widely as the "Yugoslav Partisans" (or just "Partisans").

4) I am a Croat and know exactly what the Independent State of Croatia was, the simple problem is that those genocidal bastards were not involved in the defense of Belgrade, as weren't the Chetniks.

I suppose I should apologize for not immediately corroborating my edits with sources, but I first wanted to make the thing readable, and then improve it. The generals I added (and that's all I basically added), are referenced here as well [2].

I suggest we both stop editing until we can clear up our misunderstanding. (Would it be agreeable to you if we used "Soviet" in some places and "Red Army" in others, I remind you that "Soviet" is by no means a pejorative and is perfectly correct in this context, and that "the Red Army 57th Army", for example, does not sound very well.) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the Yugoslav "partisan" is a commonly used term by Germans and in English, but officially they were the People's Liberation Army of Yugoslavia, and that is what should be used.

"Soviet" is commonly misused, but is meaningless. Soviet Union was a state. However the military activities were conducted by the Red Army. There was no Soviet Army until after the war. I also discourage use of "Soviets" which in Russian refers to village councils.

The Croat fascist formations did participate in the withdrawal to Belgrade, and remnants of them did fight allegedly in and around Belgrade although I have not found a good source yet.

A lot more Red Army forces were involved then just these formations you mentioned.

I'm not criticising you, but it is really the hard way of editing the way you do it. If you make it readable first, are you creating a better article? It may be readable, but still not worth reading! What I do, if I may share my experience, is go paragraph at a time and insert references. This means that anyone coming after me has something to base their edits on. I had not done this because did not expect so much furious editing on the article all of a sudden, so maybe my fault. I was also looking for a good source on the Yugoslav side which I lack.

I'm not in charge of the article, but I do accept a certain responsibility for it because I am upgrading the entire Eastern Front range of articles (see my user page). I have collaborated with two other editors on the operations in the Baltics and Belarus, so have no problems working with you. Just don't make huge edits, and reference every statement you make if at all possible.Cheers--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 11:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

1) Take that up somewhere else and out of this particular article, the common name for the movement in English is the "Yugoslav Partisans", that's been established [3].

Quite frankly I don't care what the common name in English is. Partisans do not operate divisions, Corps and Armies. If you look here[4] you will see that the Yugoslav forces were an Army officially from December 22 1941, and partisans only as a mode of operations and doctrine given their operational circumstances. Being partisans also allowed the Germans to shoot them rather then imprison as POWs, so the distinction I make is not trivial.

2) "Soviet" is used perfectly normally in English (do i need to quote a dictionary?), your personal feelings about the adjective are not relevant here.

Usage of "Soviet" is not perfectly normal in English, and feelings have nothing to do with it. While ultimately the troops of the Red Army were citizens of the Soviet Union, and the Red Army itself was subordinated to the government of the USSR, calling it Soviet is as wrong as calling the Royal Navy "British ships". The ground forces participating in combat operations were those of the Red Army, and not "Soviet", as in Soviet 57th Army. For this reason the formations were red-tagged 57th Army (Soviet Union), a system adopted before I started editing, and not worth changing even if wrong.

3) Find sources about the "a lot more units", I also think that there might have been more, but I can't find any reliable sources confirming your assumption. And I seem to remember something about the Partisans having more troops on the ground in Belgrade than the Soviets (as a prearranged concession from Stalin), but I'm not sure.

I have Soviet sources on the operation and the two Fronts involved in general.

4) Well I am especially careful when correcting grammar, I do not leave out information unintentionally, only when I have a source (for example, my source says there were no NDH, or especially Chetnik, forces on the Ground there). Like I said, I'm sorry I did not list the source immediately, but the entire article is unsourced, so I can't see why you're holding it against me.

Not holding anything against you. I may have assumed that others look at the article edit history before editing as I do. Most of the Eastern Front articles have not been edited extensively in ages, in some cases years. I'm still going through the list and reviewing what needs to be done and how, gathering sources, etc.

I'm sure we'll be able to work any problems out, for now I hope we can agree, per English usage, that "Yugoslav Partisans" are the most common short name for the movement, and that "Soviet" can be used in the article. Also, we really need sources for the troop numbers in the infobox, they seem realistic but this sort of info should be referenced. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see above on the partisans and use of "Soviet". English usage is not the dominant factor in writing reference articles. The dominant factor is informing the reader and the information should be more accurate then what the reader could have gathered him or her self, which is the entire point of a reference work. I am currently trying to prove this to some gentlemen in Talk:Second Battle of Kharkov.

At this stage I am not dealing with statistics; too much to do in the narratives as it is. As far as I'm concerned any numbers that are not referenced can be deleted.

A note on the use of flags. I will probably ask someone to remove all of them from the articles in the relevant categories since they are contrary to a reasonable MOS. There is actually no need for them.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 12:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

1) The Yugoslav forces were an "army", 800,000 strong, but this is irrelevant. Their name does not refer to their strategy (partisan or otherwise), but to their name (which is determined not by your personal feelings, but by English usage). The "Partisans" was their name, most used in English (notice that Partisans is always written with a capital "P"). But this is your problem: "I don't care what the common name in English is" I do not care what your personal idea of what a movement should be called is. We will not use some approximations of a proper name for the organization, we will use the actual common name (per Wiki policy).

I'm not sure what you understand to be a reference work, but it is not for promotion of Wikipedia policy. The forces that cooperated with the Red Army were referred to by the Red Army sources as the Yugoslav Army. It was officially referred to in this way by the Western Allies also. It was organised as an Army Group for the operation. As they say, "if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck". Wikipedia policy for use of common English names does not preclude the proper names of organisations despite other commonly used names being available. Given that the Yugoslav Army of the period the article deals with has a clear date of creation, and the Yugoslav Partisans does not, the matter is academic. As academics do, I deal with facts and not common assumptions about what may or may not apply. If this article can be written by a common term user, what is the point of it being a researched article?

2) ffs! "Soviet" is the official adjective for the state known as the "Soviet Union". It is not a pejorative, nor is it incorrect in any sense, the discussion is kind of silly. It's the same as "Russian" or "Croatian" or "Yugoslav". Are you actually trying to ban the use of a perfectly normal English word here!?

Not sure what "ffs" means. Soviet may have been the official adjective for Soviet Union, but its application to military operations is inappropriate in this article. That, is why the name of the Red Army was changed after the war to Soviet Army. That is also why prior to that the common reference to service personnel in English was Reds, and subsequently to renaming became Soviets. However, in a reference work it is inappropriate to use adjectives when referring to organisations because they actually represent not only the military personnel, but the wider society of the state. It would be wrong to say that "Croats committed atrocities during the war" because most did not, and not all Americans fought in the Battle of the Bulge, nor were all the airmen in the Battle of Britain Englishmen. Therefore they are US Army troops and RAF pilots.

3) Ok, but you should get some sources for the troop numbers. I can't read russian, so I have to believe what you say, I would appreciate, however, if you could provide English sources.

I can also read Russian, but at this stage I am not going to get into statistics. You can either delete the numbers or source them using your own research. I simply do not have the time.

4) Ok. I was just correcting the confusing grammar (cleanup), I removed and changed very little.

(What flags?) I'm sorry, but you'll find that "Yugoslav Partisans", as the most frequently used short name, and "Soviet", as a perfectly normal state adjective, can be used in any context, no matter how confusing you personally feel it would be for a reader. Let me put it in simpler terms: the "Chetniks" and the "(Yugoslav) Partisans", were both partisans in the military sense, but the latter uses the word as a most common short name. Let me at this time caution you against the removal of correct, sourced info that is in accordance with Wiki policy. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:21, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I refer to the flags in the infobox.

We don't want the most frequently used short form or anything. What we want is the complete, explicit and sourced form appropriate for the subject matter. Neither Yugoslav Partisans nor Soviet ate explicit. Wikipedia naming conventions are not policy. Nor do they preclude use of proper organisational names regardless of there being a "common" English term. In fact it is encouraged as a matter of the general intent of Wikipedia to provide the reader with best quality reference possible, which includes provision of as much verifiable data as can be reasonably included in the article--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 15:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

("Soviet" is the normal English language adjective, I do not know what more to say. How would you say "of the Soviet Union"? "Red Army" is not equal to "Soviet Union". Please do not remove the adjective)

"Yugoslav Partisans" is correct, "People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia" is correct. Your names and abbreviations are not. You cannot simply create a name for an organization because you personally happen to believe it will be more "understandable", or whatever.
On Wikipedia, as I'm sure you know, we use the most common correct name in English, "People's Liberation Army and Partisan Detachments of Yugoslavia", though correct, is not the most common name. "Yugoslav Partisans" is both correct and the most common name (it is also used by many reliable English sources, see Britannica [5]). I am fully supported by policy in this, and will go to the Admins if you insist on pushing your "more understandable" name. "Yugoslav Army" is just plain wrong. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Please NOTE: Britannica is not a 100% reliable source. Plenty of Wikipedia editors have found mistakes in its articles, so you do need to look at several sources before you start editing. In nay case, the article this refers to is on Tito and not the Belgrade Offensive!--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 17:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I am fully aware of that, but let's just assume in this case that Brittanica and the general public are right, and that you may be wrong. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Text organization (Joint offensive)

We must remember that this was by no means a Red Army operation only. We are talking about an (excellently) coordinated joint operation by both the Yugoslav Partisans and the Soviet forces ("Soviet" is a normal adjective of "Soviet Union", I have to use it). The article's sections are organized with mainly the Red Army operations in mind, and need to be reorganized, I suggest by the time of each operation. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The most important thing here now is to see where all this comes from: can anyone find reliable English sources to corroborate the info here? we need the troop numbers and non-Soviet related info (i.e. Yugoslav and German). --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I sympathise with your patriotism, but the operation was planned and executed under Red Army's command. That was the other reason that Tito flew to Moscow. That is why the article is predominantly organised from the Red Army's planning point of view. --mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 15:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Allied order of battle section

The 'Allied order of battle' section, while being the only referenced text, is a complete mess, could someone organize it properly? I can't read Russian and I'm having trouble getting heads or tails of it. If it helps, this is the 'order of battle' we used up to date [6]. Furthermore, it might be a good idea to leave out all the commanders, that seems like just a little too much info. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Please STOP

undoing my hard work, you will start an edit-war. I removed no information, I merely fixed grammar, sentence structure, and organized the article. I did not change, add, or delete the content meaning. I went on to fix the article organization

1) Joint operation: [7], a very well known fact around here. Tito made a point of that when he visited Stalin. The CPY were very careful about that point, believe me. (please do not patronize me, see Tito-Stalin split)

2) "Soviet":[8]

"... - adjective
4. of or pertaining to a soviet.
5. (initial capital letter) of the Soviet Union: a Soviet statesman."

Use of "Soviet" in the 5. sense is perfectly normal. You cannot forbid its use on any grounds whatsoever.

3) "Yugoslav Partisans" (initial capital letter "P"): used by the Encyclopaedia Britannica [9].

4) One sided: the article and its organization is written almost exclusively about the Red Army. You yourself admitted it [10], I endeavored to make the section organization more neutral, as the text CLEARLY deals with more than the title Soviet Armies.

5) Remove the infobox flags!? What's with you!? Just look at any other conflict infobox! [11], [12], [13], [14], [15] --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

How editing works

Tell you what DIREKTOR, you bring sources, and we can talk about your editing. For now you can go and read about the history of the Yugoslav Army in other Wikipedia articles to get an idea of what it was called. You can also read the article on the Red Army. The reason it is written predominantly from the Red Army perspective is because it was a Red Army operation in which the Yugoslav troops played a supporting role. You really need to look at the map to at least appreciate the role played by the 4th Mechanised Corps. It was not a "joint" operation, but one where the Yugolsav Army Group was under direct command of the 3rd Ukrainian Front. There is no source for a "joint" operation.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 16:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC) PS. I'm not sure waht you refer to by "What's with you?", and what I am supposed to be looking at in the other infoboxes, but if you refer to flags, I suggest you look at the MOS for use of national flags.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 16:30, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

the sources for all my points are above. That's your perspective and I respect it (and I have looked at the maps), but according to sources, it was a joint operation. I'm calling in an admin, btw, this is crazy --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

if I removed all your unsourced info, we would not have an article to talk about. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

No DIREKTOR, they are not sources. Please read up on what is a verifiable source. I mean books and articles written the subject, and not the first thing you can pull up on a Google search. You can try Google Books if you have no sources of your own on hand. And I can assure you I can use dictionaries, in several languages. I was not the original author of this article. Yo go and look at my TWO edits prior to your involvement and see how much was done before you make accusations. I am unable to immediately comply with your request because I am working on several existing and new articles, but you go and invite an admin. Maybe he/she will cool you down, sit you down and explain how articles are edited, improved and properly referenced.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 16:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Vojska.net is a perfectly reliable source, and has been used all over Wikipedia for Yugoslav military operations. Look around. I'm sorry if once again you personally do not like it, but I hope you can be flexible on this matter, considering the fact that you have no sources for your claim, and I do for mine. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

If you take a look above you'll find that I mentioned vojska.net earlier as a source, which is to say I didn't just find the site now in a few minutes. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

DIRECTOR, you may be shocked at this, but anything referenced to your "perfectly reliable source" is subject to question because is is not a source! It is unreferenced, and lacks authority of an accepted published source. No one would have any idea where all that information came from if they wanted to do their own research, so it is not acceptable. You need published reliable verifiable sources, not hobby sites online--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:06, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

My website is fully referenced, there is very big section called bibliography if you haven't noticed, I was only little lazy in early articles since I never expected website to grow this big so now I have to rewrite many articles both to fix broken English of the early days and update reference list. Bigger issue should be the fact that my work could be considered original research since several of my articles at Vojska.net have information discovered from individuals who contacted me directly in order to correct errors which have been published in history books.

If you have problem with hobby sites online used as source please start with uboat.net, Axis History, Axis History, Feldgrau etc. and GlobalSecurity.org has my website listed as only reference in two of its articles M53/59 Praga BOV, one of which is linked from wikipedia BOV (APC). So if my website is not reliable source how can then all these other websites be one? >:-) --Ivan Bajlo (talk) 09:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, but frankly I'm starting to wonder if an acceptable "reliable" source exists (you just said Britannica is unreliable). Due to a general lack of English web sources on the Yugoslav Front, involved Users tend to agree that info from vojska.net is not "invented" and is generally correct.

However, I have stronger reasons for claiming the matter was a joint operation: I like to think that I generally have a good understanding of Yugoslav politics (if I may be so bold), and it is crystal clear that Tito and Stalin were very cautious of one-another (mostly Tito of Stalin;). In other words, Tito flew to Moscow for the purpose of ensuring (among other things, of course) that Belgrade, the capital of Yugoslavia, would not be liberated solely by the Red Army, but through the course of a joint operation. Why? because self-liberation was a very important matter to the Partisans, because it obviously brings forth eventual political independence (see Tito-Stalin split). I also must point out that you yourself did not provide sources for your claim that the offensive was a Red Army operation. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Look, I really don't care about your political views. This article is also NOT about the relationship between Tito and Stalin. I just note that Tito was not there for the start of the operation. The owner of the site you used for "referencing" is now claiming possible copyright violation, and has done nothing to add to the verifiability of the data found on his site, correct though it may be. The thing about Wikipedia is that we prefer to do our own research rather then rely on other reference works! In your case, the article in Britannica was not on the subject of the article. Did I say that Belgrade was not liberated without participation of Yugoslav forces?! I even provided a referenced list of the forces that did participate in its liberation. The full name of the operation is Белградская наступательная операция and comes from one of David Glantzs books. That was also adopted by the Yugoslav forces. I am just not ready to add references to the article because I have not completed my research. It seems to me that you have not even begun--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Be careful

As someone who stumbled onto this article, I'd like to ask people (especially mrg3105) to be careful with links: for example, there's no reason to replace Presidium of the Supreme Soviet with Presidium of the Supreme Council of USSR. Nyttend (talk) 23:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I had a look and the only fault of mine was linking without checking the Wikipedia usage since the wording was already there. It happens, but I was a bit tired after revision of the article.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be in the habit of reverting edits just for the sake of making a point. That whole edit was merely spelling, grammar and link fixing. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Dispute

Ok, cease fire. Let's try to reestablish organized discussion once again and go through the dispute here (add points if there are more):

1) Grammar. First of all, let's agree to be careful not to revert the grammar cleanup improvements. I am sure we'll agree a legible article is paramount here.

2) Sections and titles. The text of the article deals with both Soviet and non-Soviet formations and their movements. In order to allow for a more balanced article, the subsection titles should be removed or remain in a completely neutral wording. This is not the Russian Wiki, and the section titles should not have only with the Soviet units' names. (The title of the "Allied forces" section should not be "Belgrade Assault", because that title is incorrect as it has nothing to do with the actual text of the section).

3) Joint operation. Ok, we'll both apparently try to find sources on whether or not this was a joint Soviet/Partisan operation. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There is not such thing as a "cease fire" in Wikipoedia editing. I don't have a dispute. You may not know it, but I have an editing shadow called User:Buckshot06 who sees it as his duty to correct my grammar and he had a week to do so, so I'm assuming it was not that bad. After looking at your edits I realised that all you did is reshuffle my words to suit your POV. I have no idea what your qualifications for editing are, but I use section titles that reflect the section contents, you do not. I don't need to "try to find sources on whether or not this was a joint Soviet/Partisan operation", because I have them. What I do not have is the sources for actual operations of some Yugoslav units on the extreme northwestern flank of the operation because they were not in any significant contact with the 3rd Ukrainian Front. Given that you clearly do not have any sources, how can you say that there was a "joint" operation! Strategic and operational planning was entirely in the 3UF staff planning due to IFF issues, and only the tactical planning was left to the Yugoslav command. This may be hard for you to accept, but you need to understand the operating (not operational) conditions of the campaign to appreciate what I'm saying. This is overwhelmingly true for the Bulgarians who had NKVD and staff liaison parties attached down to regimental level, and it is they, the Red Army officers that performed much of the coordination between the 13th Yugoslav Army Corps and 2nd Bulgarian Army.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

It would appear that User:Buckshot06 arrived a little late, though I'm glad someone keeps an eye on your edits. If fixing sentence structure is "reshuffling words" then so be it. I remember a sentence in the text actually stating that the Soviet 17th Air Army "took control over an area with support" from one of the Partisans army corps(!) This article's original text was probably (badly) translated from the Russian Wiki, and any impartial observer can see that it is not balanced (which can be expected), even you yourself said so.[16] I merely tried to balance the article by removing some of the overwhelming emphasis on Soviet units and their participation.
As for the "joint operation" dispute, please present these reliable sources of yours confirming that the Partisan units involved in this operation were not under the command of Tito and the Partisan supreme HQ on a strategic level. I do not care about liaison officers, I am talking about military command structure. Noone is denying the importance of the Red Army and its pivotal role to the success of this operation, but, once again, we are talking about command. (Also, please cease addressing me in that patronizing tone, I dare say I may even know a bit more than you about the Yugoslav front.) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

As for my source, I refuse to accept your personal "interpretation" of the reference. If you choose to believe that "joint Partisan-Soviet force" actually means "Soviet force with Partisan support" that is your problem. I do not mean this as a threat, but removal of verifiable sources is vandalism, you are edit-warmongering. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 03:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

All I can say is that if you know more then me about the Yugoslav Front as you put it, then you should have no problem proving referenced sources from which this knowledge is derived. If you think that four Red Army Armies provided support to a partisan (not Partisan) Army Group, then all I can say is - good luck proving it --mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 09:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You're twisting my words, I said no such thing. It would be stupid to say the Red Army was here in a supporting role. What I said was that the involved Partisan units were not under the command of the Red Army, but were merely coordinating their efforts. I remind you that you've given nothing but your word in proving otherwise. In any case, the current sentence:
"The Belgrade Offensive (Croatian, Serbian: Beogradska ofenziva/ofanziva) (September 14 1944 - November 24 1944) was an offensive military operation conducted by a joint Partisan-Soviet force."
is sourced fully in accordance with WP:V, do not remove it (or its sources!) without consensus, per Wiki policy. Since this did not stop you in the past, I'll add that you will be reported for any such edit which may easily be interpreted even as a breach of WP:VAN (removal of sourced verifiable info due to personal oppinion). I remind you that you are not in "charge" of this article, and I ask you again to please curb your generally arrogant and patronizing tone of discussion. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Look, so far as I'm concerned you clearly do not understand either the concept of WP:V or the concept you are trying to reference, "joint operations". I know you think I sound arrogant and insulting, but I have no time in educating you on these. I will revert anything that I see as unverified and contrary to my understanding of the operation. If you want to get an admin to explain to you what WP:V means, please get one. If you want to find out more on joint operations, I have expanded the combined operations article a bit, but by all means do your own research. Even get an RfC if you want to. Don't care. I have no time as it is to spend on the things I should be doing. Best wishes.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 12:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh I'm not pretending to be as much of an expert as you. Indeed I hardly think anyone on Wikipedia should contradict you, you being so wise and all knowing. However, I do have some limited knowledge of Wikipedia policies, far beyond my understanding though they may be.
I will repeat: the LIBRARY OF CONGRESS ref is fully in accordance with WP:V and it covers the sentence entirely. Removal of verifiable referenced info is, to my knowledge, not allowed on Wikipedia and may be considered a breach of WP:VAN. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay I've read the books I have and added some more info at my website from memories of the Partisan veterans and commanders it sounds as if the two armies merged, while there was general plan agreed with Tito and Stalin nobody seems to have informed lower ranked Soviet generals like Zhdanov or given them other instructions then take Belgrade (probably not expecting such large Partisans force to reach the city in time) and in the confusion of battle improvisation was normal with Peko Dapcevic giving orders to commander of 4th Corps Rear Area colonel M.I. Toropko to withdraw while Partisans hold the enemy. Errors and chaos on German side were probably also great aid since there were several occasions in which offensive could have been stalled allowing Germans to withdraw in good order and regroup. --Ivan Bajlo (talk) 20:35, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah but, according to your sources, were the involved Partisan units under the command of the Soviets, as mrg asserts, or were they simply coordinating their efforts? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no evidence of Partisans being under direct Soviet command (they were very picky about that and British often got annoyed beacuse of it), Soviet actions in Yugoslavia look more like they got orders from Stavka, carried them out and left - if there were Partisans (some Chetniks also initially welcomed Russians) in the area they would cooperate otherwise they would simply carry out their orders and move on. --Ivan Bajlo (talk) 22:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

They were very particular about that, yes. I agree that it is highly improbable that Partisan forces were under the command of the Soviets at any point, particularly during the liberation of their own capital. Their situation was somewhat unique, and they are certainly a different matter altogether from the Bulgarians and Romanians. I already have something to this effect from the Library of Congress, but I wonder if you have any further sources that can be used to clarify this point? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the US Library of Congress is a very good quality source, plenty good enough to meet the requirements of WP:RS. However, other sources would of course be most welcome. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing contradictory about what Ivan presents, except that a Red Army officer would never take orders from a Yugoslav Army officer, regardless of the rank. There was probably a great degree of coordination between the 4th Gd. Mech Corps and the Yugoslav troops because the 4GMC as the 3UF mobile operational group was inserted into the 57th Army front and advanced to Belgrade making use of the havoc created by the Yugoslav troops attacking German units from the west. Even without reading the accounts, just by looking at the map it is clear there was very little combined operations going on until the very last phase of the operation, the city assault. So far as the Red Army was concerned it was a by-the-book operation, and the cooperation with Yugoslav troops was minimal, most notably working out the interaction between Yugoslav and Bulgarian forces that came into contact first, and the obvious implications of having Bulgarian troops in Yugoslavia. Soviet forces smashed the AG Serbia, cut the railroads from Greece, and assault-crossed the Morava by the time they met with the Yugoslav troops and only some divisions of the 14th Yugoslav Corps actually interacted with the 4GMC in its race for Belgrade by securing the corridor for it to Polanka. Given the Yugoslav troops were not motorised, as is depicted on the well known photo of their entry into Belgrade, how could they have kept up with the 4GMC? There were Yugoslav troops operating south-west of Belgrade, but they (I believe) had their hands full with German troops trying to withdraw via the rail from Bosnia.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that if involved Partisan units were not under the command of the Soviets, that the matter was not a Red Army operation on the whole (as mrg asserts). Rather I'd call it an offensive conducted in cooperation between both the Partisans and the Red Army, with neither actually commanding the other. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)