Talk:The Holocaust

GA/FA status

I think it's about time that we try once again to bring this article up to Good/Featured article status, because the significance of it is quite huge, in terms of the impact, and the aftermath of The Holocaust. --EclipseSSD (talk) 19:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Victims and death toll

The edits I made in the past day were made to give support to the figure of 9-11 million Holocaust deaths which are listed in the introduction. The source for the figures is Niewyck's Columbia Guide to the Holocaust. My goal is to improve the article and give it credibility. Previously the article listed 9-11 million deaths with no clear explanation as to it's breakdown. The source to back up the figures is Donald Niewyck, a recognized scholar of the Holocaust. The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust was published by Columbia University. I believe that the article has been improved. I would like to hear the opinions of other editors on my changes to the article.--Woogie10w (talk) 11:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I knew that the jewish death toll was undescribably high,6.8 million.But I never realised that other types of peoples were affected also, the homosexuals,s0w-prisoners.When I looked at the given photos of the people being murdered, a child dying and people just walking by, emaciated bodies and sickly babies.I was disgusted at the sick mindedness of the thinkers of "The Final Solution".Constituting I have my own history of attrocities in my country, South Africa.Though I was not remotely on the existance list.Apartheid in my country left millions of casulties and traumatised generations.The worst I think is :that Hitler could talk a whole country as well as educated people into believing his sick ideal.And now the affected families and cultures have to live with the reminiscent sting of their past generations endurance of these attrocities.

All we can do is know all are equal individuals which have the divine right to existance and life.Nothing gives anyone the right to ever corrupt lives or constrict freedom. Nothing!God made us all and that makes us special!

If the Auschwitz number of dead was 4 million then it was changed to 1.1 million why has that not changed the total number of dead?--Rothschild&co (talk) 23:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• Because no responsible scholars ever paid attention to the 4 million claim; it was recognized as inflated. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 02:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Now the number is 9 to 11 million total? Were did that number come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rothschild&co (talk • contribs) 21:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC) Read the article, pal--Woogie10w (talk) 11:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The origin of the 4.0 million murdered persons, Jews and Christians, at Oświęcim is a statement by Soviet sources in 1945, this preliminary estimate was repeated in western historical literature for many years. Today scholars in Poland believe that between 2.5 and 3.0 million Jews were murdered in Poland during the war, including 1.0 million Jews at Oświęcim. Since the fall of communism in 1989 historians in Poland have been able to publish research free from government censorship. An analysis of this recent research in Poland can be found in this source. Gniazdowski, Mateusz. Losses Inflicted on Poland by Germany during World War II. Assessments and Estimates—an Outline The Polish Quarterly of International Affairs, 2007, no. 1.This article is available for purchase from the Central and Eastern European Online Library at [1]--Woogie10w (talk) 11:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems like there is manipulation going on in this article, I think every major news agency still use 6 million. Now how or why your inflating the number is still not clear. But it is clear that 6 million is the accepted number in main stream media and I think that should be respected.--Rothschild&co (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Hm? The "main stream media" isn't what determines inclusion in Wikipedia; rather, we insist on reliable sources, and favor scholarly sources, which is a different matter entirely. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To be a revisionist which is what your doing by flying in the face of known accepted information, you need extraordinary evidence. Going from 6 million to 11 million is a very big jump. Now I have yet to see the extraordinary evidence which overrides all known and accepted information about the official number. Do you have the overriding information which allows you to support you revisionist claims?--Rothschild&co (talk) 23:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Who are you talking to? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
• I believe I was responding to your last statement, sorry if I didn't make that clear, but I would like to have a response on my previous statement I made.--Rothschild&co (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you'd be pretty hard pressed to find one reliable, third party source that does not list the total death toll for all Nazi death operations during WW2 as ~11 million. The confusion often arises from the fact that the term "Holocaust" can be used to describe either solely the Nazi campaign against Jews or the wider ethnic cleansing programme. The article has to explain all uses of the word, not merely the use that is most common in the press. The Jewish death toll is generally put at around 6 million, while the non-Jew death toll is put at around 5 million, giving a total of around 11 million, higher or lower depending upon the estimate. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 02:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The wider ethnic cleansing programme encompassed the USSR. According to a Russian Academy of Science Report of 1995 the civilian death toll in the USSR territory occupied by the Germans was 13.7 million, out of the total population of 68 million ( 20.1%). Western scholars need to become aware of the research in post communist Russia on the human losses during the war. For example in the battle of Stalingard the USSR lost 323,856 men. The civilian toll in the Stalingard region was 555,700.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Source of the statictics mentioned above, Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk. Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 ISBN 5-86789-023-6--Woogie10w (talk) 23:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Woogie, you might be able to source this or correct me, but I've heard that the total Soviet death toll, civilian and military, was over 20 million. However, we need to be clear over exactly under what circumstances we are counting deaths ie, do we count only deaths in death/concentration camps, or all deaths at the hands of the Nazis. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 03:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Total deaths in the USSR, including the annexed territories, exceeded the pre war level by 26.6 million from 1941-45, including an increase of 1.3 million in infant mortality, based on a study by the Russian Academy of Science in 1993. A 1992 Russian study gives the official total of military deaths from 1941-1945 as 8,668,400; including 6,330,000 killed in action/died of wounds and 556,000 dead from non-combat causes plus an estimated 500,000 MIA and 1,283,000 POW dead out of 4,059,000 total POW . A 1995 study by the Russian Academy of Science lists deaths in German hands of 13.7 million civilians, including 7.4 million victims of Nazi genocide and reprisals; 2.2 million deaths of persons deported to Germany for forced labor; and 4.1 million famine and disease deaths in occupied territory. There were an additional estimated 3.0 million famine deaths in the territory not under German occupation. These losses are for the entire territory of the USSR in 1941, including territories annexed in 1939-40. Civilian losses in territories annexed by USSR are also included in totals of the Baltic states(600,000), Poland(2,500,000) , Czechoslovakia(80,000), and Romania(300,000). [2],
Sources :
Andreev, EM, et al, Naselenie Sovetskogo Soiuza, 1922-1991. Moscow, Nauka, 1993. ISBN 5-02-013479-1
Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk. Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 ISBN 5-86789-023-6
G. I. Krivosheev. Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses. Greenhill 1997 ISBN 1-85367-280-7
--Woogie10w (talk) 10:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC) This data is also available online at[ http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt]--Woogie10w (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

The current page has extreme vandalism done to it, I don't have the right to edit it and I've no clue how he did it.Villadelfia (talk) 19:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• Is it still there? Likely someone messed with a template. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Ah, I found it. Yes, someone messed with a template, and the damage was already reverted by the time I looked. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
    • I still see it...Villadelfia (talk) 19:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Perhaps I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Have you reloaded the page? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 20:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
        • I just came here (see my signature for time), never loaded

the page, and see the vandalism. Some of the best vandalism Ive seen by the target and time up. (not as good as willys page moves, the ascii goatse, and the bodybuilder with an erection that made the front page) 71.37.50.189 (talk) 00:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

'Hear-Say in subarticle 3.2.3'

In the subarticle 3.2.3 'South and East Slavs' there is hear-say statement of a former Nazi official which is taken as true, or at least trying to imply something for a fact.

Quote: Hitler's high plenipotentiary in South East Europe, Hermann Neubacher, later wrote: "When leading Ustaše state that one million Orthodox Serbs (including babies, children, women and old men) were slaughtered, this in my opinion is a boasting exaggeration. End quote:

The objective data is at the end of the subsection.

Quote: The USHMM reports between 56,000 and 97,000 persons were killed at the Jasenovac concentration camp[73][74] However, Yad Vashem reports 600,000 deaths at Jasenovac.[75] End quote:

Instead of the quote from Neubacher I suggest putting a list of WW2 casualties in Yugoslavia of all nationalities not just one.

The following link contains one such list. It is an online version of the paper number 69 in the quote list. Table 5 of the paper has a column named 'victims in camps' which should indicate victims in concentration camps. http://www.hic.hr/books/manipulations/p06.htm

Disambiguation

Why does the "holocaust" link here? It is not a proper noun BY DEFINITION. There is a disambiguation page and it should fo there first. From there viewers can choose to come here. Furthermore, why is it THE holocaust? the definition of holocaust is not limited to 1940's. Perhaps Holocause (Nazis) would be more appropriate. 59.183.149.111 (talk) 12:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed many time in this page and editors are tired of rehashing it over and over. Check back through the archives. This is not WikiDictionary so the most common historic usage of the term gets priority hence Holocaust redirects here. There are other historic uses of Holocaust where it means "burnt offering unto God" and those are covered in the dablink (disambig link) found at the header of this page: "Holocaust" and "Shoah" redirect here. For other uses, see Holocaust (disambiguation) and Shoah (disambiguation).. As for THE Holocaust, can you name any other Holocaust as widely known as the WWII one? Alatari (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Article beautification

I went through and made sure all the headers were left justified instead of free floating and improved the flow of pictures, quotes and charts. The number of changes made in the Victims section over the last 6 months made that task a bit harder. The only change to wording was done in one chart which was a non-Jewish victim chart and was free floating. I made it just a victims chart, added Jews and the same ref from the other table listing 6.8m and moved the table to the first paragraph which describes all victims and death tolls. So it is now spatially attached to it's relevant subject material. Alatari (talk) 17:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Why cant any one edit this article ?

Why cant any one edit this article ? I do not see the edit this page button on this article about Holocaust. I have never seen this happen on any other Wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fforest1222 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

• This article is under semi-protection to prevent persistent vandalism. Please see the article on Wikipedia's Protection policy for more information. Edward Lalone | (Talk)

Did any SS, Gestapo or even Hitler, Himmler regret any actions?

A normal person would agree that a conscience is embedded into any human.This would be my probabal conclusion.But in the case of German rule and World War Two is concerned I differ from my own niave conclusion! No, they did not regret it.Going through the archives, seeing laughing german soldiers pleasuring themselves or busy their boredom by torturing a jew .No one knows Hitlers motives for writing "Mein Kampf" and spreading his Arian ideal, or being the forerunner in the creation of the death camps.Though there are many forelorn and unfactual articles as to why he dispised the jews.But one must actually realise that he did not just despise only jews, he despised any culture, or type of people that did'nt conform to his sick standard.

The most ironic thing in the case of Adolf Hitler as a actual human,who eats,drinks,sleeps, etc.He spoke in one of his speeches of replenishing Germany of its clean roots, of filling his country with the super race.He wasn't even born in Germany,he was an Austrian. Thus the conclusion has already been stated.Discuss this topic.Do you agree or not? Refer to Bella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.247.65.146 (talk) 18:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't think me an idiot.I am just writing this so that I can edit my discussion to sign it.Excuse my unuse of wikipedia etiquette. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.247.65.146 (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

This Wikepedia article on the holocaust is very informative. I am surprised there are still people around who deny that the holocaust ever happened, especially with the ample testimony from eyewitnesses such as eichmann and hoss. I guess it's still unbelievable that something that monstrous could have happened in a country like Germany. I have also been reading some books on the German atrocities in 1914 in Belgium and even those were pretty frightening.75.84.227.196 (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)edwardlovette75.84.227.196 (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Why are Soviet POWs under Slavs section ? Soviet soldiers were also people like Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Azeris who were murdered as well.

Why are Soviet POWs under Slavs section ? Soviet soldiers s were also people like Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Azeris who were murdered as well. And they definetely don't classify as Slavs.--Molobo (talk) 01:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• That's a good point. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• I propose to remove it then from Slavs section, if nobody disagrees.--Molobo (talk) 11:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Nazi propaganda depicted Soviet Army as Untermensch hoards with Asiatic features. The reality was quite different, only about 5% of Soviet combat forces were from the Turkish and Asian ethnic groups. These groups were considered unreliable and were used mostly in rear area units. The Germans did recruit a Turkestan legion during the war. Nazi propaganda depicted these Asiatic volunteers with their faces turned to the side! [3]--Woogie10w (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Source for 5 % ? Anyway it would still mean that placing Soviet PoWs among Slavs is wrong.--Molobo (talk) 11:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Source for 5% figure-Rossiiskaia Akademiia nauk. Liudskie poteri SSSR v period vtoroi mirovoi voiny:sbornik statei. Sankt-Peterburg 1995 ISBN 5-86789-023-6--Woogie10w (talk) 11:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Please take no offence, but are there any other estimates ? For example Soviet ones or Western we could compare with Russian ones ? I am asking because Russia underwent nationalism period after collapse of SU and sometimes the role of Russians and Russian history is portayed in dubious way by Russian sources. Anyway it still means placing Soviet POWs in Slavs category is wrong-they were killed primarily because they were Soviets not because they were Slavs(I do not deny that Slavs were to be exterminated according to German state, and such operations existed) --Molobo (talk) 12:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• On a practical level a knowledge of Russian language was necessary for troops in combat units. In combat orders must be communicated and understood without delay. For example in 1940-41 the Soviets drafted men from the annexed territories; Poles and Baltic conscripts were usually placed in construction(tyl) formations. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

"Poles and Baltic conscripts were usually placed in construction(tyl) formations"

Balts are not a Slavic people's group. Lithuanians and Latvians belong to Balts people's group and Estonians are Finno-Ugric.--Molobo (talk) 13:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Nazi racist propaganda that depicted the Soviet Army as Asiatic was not at all accurate. About 90% of Soviet combat troops and POW were Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian , 5% Turkic and Asiatic and the remaining 5% from various ethnic groups such as Georgians, Armenians ,other minorities from the Caucasus and Baltic regions. The Soviets needed men who could understand orders given in the Russian language. Conscripts who were not proficient in Russian were placed in the rear (Tyl) units for construction and supply. I was told by an ex German POW that guards in his camp were Volga Germans, among the prisoners at the camp were Soviet soldiers convicted for offenses.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• I propose to remove it then from Slavs section, if nobody disagrees. Go ahead, be bold and move it, I have no problem with that. The only bone I have to pick with this article is the fact that the Russians count only 1.3 million dead POW, not 3 million. The balance of 1.7 milion were considered civilians because they were conscripted reservists not listed on the strength of military units. Western historians really need to become familiar with contemporary Russian soruces.--Woogie10w (talk) 15:06, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

why were my edits to this page removed?

and who removed them? i'm getting a little pissed here. Bannedtruth (talk) 15:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Because they were pure trolling and denialism. Paul B (talk) 15:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

says who? you? Bannedtruth (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't argue with denialists because there is no point. They are way way beyond any form of mainstream scholarship on the subject. And that's the last I'll say on the matter unless you want to raise any legitimate issues about the article. Paul B (talk) 15:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)