Talk:New England town

This Article Can't be for Real

This article assumes and proposes that New England towns are somehow distinct from the United States. We know this to be false. Other states may use other names, but it is all same. This article seems to have been created for the sole purpose of fictionalizing New England as a separate entity.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrcee (talk • contribs) 06:28, March 23, 2007 (UTC)

I've lived all over and never seen anything like a New England town. For one thing, as opposed to the South and West, there is no "unincoporated" land anywhere. The original settlers saw this as a benefit. I'm not so sure today, but it is a fact.

Most towns, and they are mostly all towns in Vermont, can't do anything without guidance from the citizens. As oppposed to cities where we are constantly throwing the rascals out because they've done something the population didn't like. You don't have that disconnect in a town. The selectboard is simply a place to discuss what the board can do with the guidance it has received from the townspeople. Selectboards tend to continue forever in office as long as they are willing to do so. The pay is miniscule.

Most of the town offices are filled by essentially unpaid volunteers. These people often have real authority and undergo training at their own expense - property appraisers, for example. These jobs would all be filled by paid bureaucrats if the county ran things.

The major drawback in New England is the lack of coordination between towns that you get with a county government. Roads don't always run the right way. You can't get there from here. Don't have that in most other places. Tiny school boards for that town alone. A teacher's services become unnecessary to a district, s/he has to go elsewhere and look for a job, there is no "county school board" to reassign her/him. Elementary schools are always placed within a town. Unthinkable to do otherwise. Tiny towns are frustrated as to when to build new schools - it would be a lot easier with the help of other towns, but then the school wouldn't be close. Libraries are tiny and have lousy hours. Definite drawbacks.

Yes, you can point to some of the same features in other rural areas, but in NE these are built into the system. Elsewhere, they are purely voluntary.

So I think the article is necessary. Student7 11:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention, the US Census Bureau defines New England towns * town areas differently (NECTA v CBSA)Drhamad (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Number of towns in Maine

JackME, I have a question on the edits that you made:

In the “statistics and superlatives section”, you changed the number of municipalities in Maine, raising the number of towns by two. The article now says that there are 434 current towns, and that there were 436 at the time of the last federal census in 2000. Previously the article showed 432 current towns, with 434 as of the 2000 Census.

I double-checked my lists, and I’m still only coming up with 432 current towns, with 434 as of 2000 (two towns have disincorporated since the 2000 Census, so the number of towns has defintely dropped by two since then). I understand that a new town called Chebeague Island is to be incorporated in Cumberland County on July 1, 2007, but (1) it hasn’t actually incorporated yet (2) that’s only one town, not two and (3) based on the fact that you bumped up both the current figures and the 2000 figures, it wouldn’t seem that you are referring to any towns that newly incorporated sometime recently, since any such towns obviously didn't exist in 2000.

In an attempt to figure out where the discrepancy is, here are the numbers that I have, broken down county-by-county. (These numbers are towns only, no cities or plantations.)

• Androscoggin: 12
• Aroostook: 53
• Cumberland: 24
• Franklin: 17*
• Hancock: 36
• Kennebec: 25
• Knox: 16
• Lincoln: 18
• Oxford: 34
• Penobscot: 52
• Piscataquis: 17
• Sagadahoc: 9
• Somerset: 27
• Waldo: 25
• Washington: 40**
• York: 27

(*was 18 of the 2000 Census (Madrid has since disincorporated))

(**was 41 as of the 2000 Census (Centerville has since disincorporated))

Unless I’m doing the math wrong, that adds up to 432. Can you clarify where you’re coming up with two more towns?

I also found a document (http://www.memun.org/public/local_govt/form_muni.pdf), on the Maine Municipal Association’s web site showing that there are 492 municipalities of all types (not just towns). However, it lists three Indian reservations, and it also still lists Centerville. Take them out, and you're left with a total of 488 towns, cities and plantations. This is the same as what had previously been shown on the page before you increased the number of towns by two (it now says 490).

MCT 23:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I am reverting the number of towns in Maine back to 432, because, as stated above, I believe the figure of 434 currently shown on the page to be incorrect. If JackME or anyone else has documentation to the contrary, please post it here and modify the article as appropriate.

MCT 16:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I could not respond sooner.

You are correct that I made an error in the totals. (And we don't agree on the number of towns for Aroostook--you 53 me 54-- or Washington--you 40 me 39--) As near as I can reconstruct it, it seems likely that in adjusting and compensating for the changes, and for errors in the listing on the State of Maine website, I inadvertently added the 3 reservations back into the total number of towns. At the Maine State website, the former town of Centerville is still listed, but the current organized municipality of Baring Plantation is omitted. (That is a real error which I have reported to several responsible parties, but which has not yet been corrected.) As you note, the Maine Municipal Associations PDF, even though dated July, 2006, also still includes the former town of Centerville, but in that file Baring Plantation is included as it should be. So their figure of 492, should be adjusted down to 491. After checking the math several times, here is what I have for a breakdown:

• ANDROSCOGGIN COUNTY
  • 14 organized municipalities; Towns: 12; Cities: 2; Plantations: _; Reservations: _
• AROOSTOOK COUNTY
  • 67 organized municipalities; Towns: 54; Cities: 2; Plantations: 11; Reservations: _
• CUMBERLAND COUNTY
  • 27 organized municipalities; Towns: 24; Cities: 3; Plantations: _; Reservations: _
• FRANKLIN COUNTY
  • 21 organized municipalities; Towns: 17; Cities: _; Plantations: 4; Reservations: _
• HANCOCK COUNTY
  • 37 organized municipalities; Towns: 36; Cities: 1; Plantations: _; Reservations: _
• KENNEBEC COUNTY
  • 29 organized municipalities; Towns: 25; Cities: 4; Plantations: _; Reservations: _
• KNOX COUNTY
  • 18 organized municipalities; Towns: 16; Cities: 1; Plantations: 1; Reservations: _
• LINCOLN COUNTY
  • 19 organized municipalities; Towns: 18; Cities: _; Plantations: 1; Reservations: _
• OXFORD COUNTY
  • 36 organized municipalities; Towns: 34; Cities: _; Plantations: 2; Reservations: _
• PENOBSCOT COUNTY
  • 60 organized municipalities; Towns: 52; Cities: 3; Plantations: 4; Reservations: 1
• PISCATAQUIS COUNTY
  • 19 organized municipalities; Towns: 17; Cities: _; Plantations: 2; Reservations: _
• SAGADAHOC COUNTY
  • 10 organized municipalities; Towns: 9; Cities: 1; Plantations: _; Reservations: _
• SOMERSET COUNTY
  • 33 organized municipalities; Towns: 27; Cities: _; Plantations: 6; Reservations: _
• WALDO COUNTY
  • 26 organized municipalities; Towns: 25; Cities: 1; Plantations: _; Reservations: _
• WASHINGTON COUNTY
  • 46 organized municipalities; Towns: 39; Cities: 2; Plantations: 3; Reservations: 2
• YORK COUNTY
  • 29 organized municipalities; Towns: 27; Cities: 2; Plantations: _; Reservations: _

• -----------------------------------
• TOTAL ORGANIZED MUNICIPALITIES: 491
  • TOTAL TOWNS: 432
  • TOTAL CITIES: 22
  • TOTAL PLANTATIONS: 34
  • TOTAL RESERVATIONS: 3

Check this over and report if and where you disagree. If not, I will make the appropriate corrections everywhere I had included this information. JackME 19:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Excluding the reservations, which I didn't include in my municipality count, I can see two counties where we're off. In both cases, the discrepancy is in the number of municipalities classified as towns vs. the number classified as plantations. After checking my numbers against the lists on List of New England towns, I believe that your data is correct in both cases:

• As discussed in my earlier comments on the Talk:List of New England towns page, I had Baring counted as a town, when it should be a plantation. I was showing Washington County with 2 cities, 40 towns and 2 plantations, but it should be 2 cities, 39 towns, and 3 plantations, as you stated above.

• I had Aroostook County as 2 cities, 53 towns and 12 plantations. The error is that I had Wallagrass counted as a plantation, but it is actually a town. So it should be 2 cities, 54 towns and 11 plantations, as per your figures. As with Baring, it looks like the root of the problem is that I originally used the 1990 Census to create my list of totals, and I had failed to update information that may have been incorrect as shown in that Census to begin with. The 1990 Census showed Wallagrass as a plantation, but I have from another source that it incorporated as a town in 1986. The 2000 Census does have it as a town.

Because I created the lists on the List of New England towns page using the 2000 Census, rather than updating information derived from the 1990 Census as I had done for the number of municpalities in each state on the New England town page, the lists on the former page did not have the above errors. But my two errors in the latter cancelled each other out, so my overall counts for the state as a whole were the same in both places. I think we're in agreement that the numbers that were originally up on the page (and are currently back on the page) are correct, 22 cities, 432 towns, 34 plantations, 488 total not including reservations? (See my comments on the Talk:List of New England towns page regarding reservations -- the page currently doesn't address them at all, but perhaps they should be added?)

It's so much easier keeping track of the other New England states, where plantations don't even exist and there are hardly ever any changes in municipality rosters. :)

MCT 22:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, no doubt the problems we both have had with the numbers is in the specific number of each type of municipality and then the total of the combined. It gets confusing, and more so when there are these errors of omission (by the Maine State page) and the continued inclusion of no-longer organized towns. (Still don't know why Madrid was properly removed, but Centerville still shows up!)

Well, I guess Madrid was disincorporated longer ago than Centerville. Maybe we're not giving them enough credit; they're only four years behind, not seven....MCT 23:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

This is likely true, although as a citizen and user of the web page, I would have expected that these corrections be made as immediately as the status of any listed town, city, plantation, or reservation changed. There WAS an excuse in the pre-web printed book day when cost and practicality dictated waiting for a new print run, but with the State's web page, there isn't any excuse for delay, IMO. JackME 20:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

As to the 3 reservations, since the Maine State Webpage DOES list those along with the towns, cities, and plantations (and not with the UN-organized townships) I definitely think they need to always be included in any article or reference to the state's organized municipalities. After all, they ARE organized, and self-governed as much as any town, city, or plantation, and maybe more so eh?

I definitely agree that they should be included in the explanation of the New England/Maine municipal systems on the New England town page. And they probably are even more self-governed than any town, city or plantation, since the state doesn't really have much authority over them. However, to your point about drawing the distinction that if something is called a "city" or a "plantation" then it's not a "town", I'm not sure that a "reservation" is typically regarded as one of the forms of a "municipality".MCT 23:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Much of this discussion, here, and on the other page, may simply be a reflection of the need to clearly and specifically define, and agree upon, the meaning of the words used (if your last comment here was serious). What is defined by municipality for example? As I've been using that "word", it is a generic term for the organized entities, as opposed to he UN-organized territory of the state. Ergo, towns, cities, plantations, and reservations in the state of Maine. My use of that word carries no implication of type or style of government within, or specific method of incorporation or organization.JackME 20:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

One final comment, it's obviously a simple typo of transposed figures, but I'm pointing it out to further illustrate how difficult it can be to keep all these numbers correct when dealing with different types and drawing from different sources. In the above comments you say that there are 423 towns, but of course you meant 432, right? Glad to see I'm not the only one who screws up! heheh. Thanks for bringing this issue to my attention so we could correct it.JackME 03:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Rephrased the introductory comment in Maine's superlatives section to eliminate the unnecessary and potentially misleading reference to the number 454. also reverted my change to the reference to Monhegan. That is one of the few plantations in Maine which are known by only one name, and do not normally use the word Plantation in common reference (although it's name is Monhegan Island Plantation). JackME 21:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Vermont

Can't find a reference but in the old days, the first article on the warning was "Shall we vote to tax ourselves and if so how much?" Needless to say this took up a bit of the discussion, but the implicit idea of maybe not taxing "ourselves" this year always seemed a bit puckish to me! Student7 12:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Status of the Isles of Shoals

There is a small group of islands along the coast of NE known as the Isles of Shoals that are legally part of Maine and New Hampshire. Though they have no permanent population today, they did at one time (the NH portion was incorporated as the town of Gosport). The big question I have is, how are they legally treated by the states WRT their incorporation status. Are they treated as unincorporated land? If so, they should be listed in the listbox for each state under the appropriate heading? Or are they part of towns? It would appear that, based on the nearest towns, they should be adminsitered as parts of New Castle, New Hampshire and Kittery, Maine. How do these states treat these areas? Just something that was bothering me about the completeness of this and other articles at Wikipedia on the subject. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:07, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The Maine portion is adminstered as part of Kittery while the New Hampshire portion is part of Rye. New Castle does not have any islands within its boundaries. --Polaron | Talk 13:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Cleared that up! --Jayron32|talk|contribs 01:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

see also link to unincorporated area

What is misleading about the See also link to Unincorporated area (New Jersey). That is exact same definition for entities like Hyannis. I will restore it unless someone can argue that the particular definition in that article (i.e. not separately incorporated) does not apply to New England. --Polaron | Talk 23:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hyannis is a unique situation. There are very few situations like Hyannis. Hyannis is a village within Barnstable, a unique sort of town with seven separate villages. There are few if any towns that work like that. To claim a commonality based on a single exception seems spurious. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

What about Dixville Notch and all the other entries in Category:Unincorporated communities in New Hampshire? There are many similar cases throughout New England. --Polaron | Talk 23:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, outside of Maine, there are very few. MUCH less than 1% of the population and about 1% of the land area in New Hampshire, and NONE of Massachusettes, Connecticut, or Rhode Island meets that definition. Most of the places like that in New Hampshire and Vermont are simply accidents of history; they were surveying errors that no one felt like dealing with and have come down as odd exceptions. They are not a significant portion of either population or land area, and exist purely as a curiosity. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, looking at that category again, most of those are "villages" which ARE parts of incorporated places, but this is a rather small list, given the number of towns (compare the list you gave to Category:Towns in New Hampshire, which are ALL incorporated towns) and you'll see what I mean. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess you could say there are two different meanings of "unincorporated". The first is "not separately incorporated" (which is the category Hyannis belongs in), the second "not incorporated at all" (Dixville Notch). In most parts of the country, the second is the typical meaning. But in New England and New Jersey the first is often what's intended, since the municipal layouts of those states allow for many examples of communities that meet the first definition, but few that meet the second (in NJ, MA, CT and RI, there are literally none). There is a section of this article devoted to the "not incorporated at all" areas in New England, which as already noted are not at all standard operating procedure in the New England system, although some such areas do exist. The section on boroughs and villages addresses the matter of places that are "not separately incorporated". Category:Unincorporated communities in New Hampshire seems to be mixing together places that meet either definition of "unincorporated", which is confusing. --MCT (talk) 18:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

New Jersey unincorporated areas still not the same idea. Read both articles again

The Unincorporated area (New Jersey) is not an identical concept to a New England town. It is related to a New England village, which is an unincorporated area within a town. New Jersey has true unincorporated areas, which lack any self-governance. This situation, with a few very tiny and insigificant exceptions, does not exist in five of the six New England states. While New Jersey has towns, they are civil townships which are NOT the same a New England towns. A New England town is a unique construct, and does not have analogues in other places. Even if you are trying to claim that the Unincorporated area in Jersey is equivalent to a "village" in New England, its not that good of an analogy, since Villages are separate urban compacts within an incorporated town; think of it as two downtowns within a single city. The very definition of on the page you are linking, "Unincorporated areas in the state of New Jersey are well-defined communities that are part of one or more incorporated municipalities but are not independent municipalities in their own right." is patently NOT similar to a New England town, since all New England towns ARE independent municipalities in their own right. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you are mistaken. New Jersey has no unincorporated areas. While New Jersey has a municipality type known as "townships" and were originally simple civil townships, in modern times, they are now full-fledged incorporated municipalities. See Township (New Jersey). --Polaron | Talk 23:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Even so, the link should say something like this: "Unincorporated area (New Jersey), which is similar to a village in New England." To equate an unincorporated area as defined in the New Jersey article with a New England town is patently wrong. It is equivalent to a New England "village". --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I like your wording -- much clearer and less confusing than mine. Thanks. --Polaron | Talk 23:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Polaron is correct about New Jersey townships being incorporated. New Jersey townships are probably the closest thing to a New England town that you'll find in any other state, although they're certainly not exactly the same. The two biggest differences are that the townships are often carved out by incorporated boroughs, and there is probably somewhat less of tendency for residents to think of the township/town as a single coherent community and somewhat more of a tendency to identify with "unincorporated areas"/"villages" than in New England. I agree that an Unincorporated area (New Jersey), as described in at the link, is very similar in concept to a (not separately incorporated) "village" in New England. Along the same lines, New York's system is likewise somewhat similar to New England, and the term "hamlet" is used there for the same. Since a NJ "unincorporated area" and a NY "hamlet" are like a New England "village", though, not a New England town, would it make more sense to work this into the discussion of villages rather than have it as a "See" reference at the end? --MCT (talk) 18:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Remaining incorporated villages in Vermont

There are currently a few notations on the main page regarding the statement that most of the remaining incorporated villages in Vermont are very small. My original purpose in writing this was to drive home the points that incorporated villages are, as an institution, 1) less important than towns, and 2) in decline. Not only are there fewer villages than in the past, but those that remain often serve very small numbers of residents. One of the current notations suggests that while many of the villages that remain are very small, many of those that have folded were also small. I have to concede that there is some truth to that, and I wouldn't object strongly to this line being deleted if others feel that it is misleading. But if you look at the numbers, I think that, over the years, a disporportionate number of larger villages have ceased to exist.

By my count, there were 39 incorporated villages in Vermont reported in the 2000 Census. 26 of them (66.7%) had populations of less than 1,000. Of the 13 that were larger, 8 (20.5%) were between 1,000 and 2,000; 2 (5.1%) were between 2,000 and 3,000; 2 (5.1%) were between 3,000 and 4,000; and 1 was (2.1%) larger than 4,000. The lone entrant in the last category is Essex Junction, which is by far the largest incorporated village in Vermont today.

For comparsion, I went back to 1930, which is the earliest census for which village data is included in the "Historical U.S. Census Totals" articles. I count 66 incorporated villages reported in that Census. 41 (62.1%) had populations under 1,000. Of the 25 that were larger, 15 (22.7%) were between 1,000 and 2,000; 5 (7.5%) were between 2,000 and 3,000; 2 (3.0%) were between 3,000 and 4,000; and 3 (4.5%) were larger than 4,000. While not that dramatic of a difference, there was somewhat more of a slant towards larger villages in 1930.

Looking at a list of the largest villages in existence back in the '20s or '30s, though, I'm struck by two things. First, the anomaly of Essex Junction aside, the largest villages of that era were larger than any villages today. The top five in the 1930 Census were all bigger than any village today except for Essex Junction. Second, hardly any of the largest villages from the '20s and '30s still exist today. Only three of the ten largest villages in the 1930 Census still exist today. Further, there were two additional large villages that ceased to exist during the '20s; both would have ranked among the four largest villages in the 1930 Census had they still existed (this would have left none of the top five still in existence today).

In 1930, the five largest incorporated villages were St. Johnsbury (7,920), Bennington (7,390), Springfield (4,943), Bellows Falls (3,930) and Windsor (3,689). The only one of these that still exists today is Bellows Falls. If you go back just a few years, you could add Brattleboro (disincorporated in 1927, had a population of over 7,000 in 1930) and Winooksi (became a city in 1921, had a population of over 5,000 in 1930) to the list. Three of the five villages with 1930 populations between 2,000 and 3,000 have disincorporated as well (Fair Haven, Proctor and Middlebury). --MCT (talk) 22:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This is an excellent summary. Wish we could find a way to use this in the Vermont History!

Having said that, it seemed to me that the phrase "very small" was pov-ish, trying to imply that no village worth it's salt would stay incorporated. Or that is was the last refuge or subterfuge, perhaps, of pretention (or something not stated, just implied). Something shameful about it!

The villages today have been villages for all, or most of Vermont history. Villages have disincorporated for several reasons. Populations have left for the city - probably the main reason. St. Johnsbury outgrew the limits of their charter. They could either incorporate as a city or disincorporate, thereby taking over the town, in effect. I don't know. It was a unique solution. Others became cities. Others disbursed their population, not to cities but into the town itself to take "advantage" of the "ten acre" rule of Act 250 whose purpose, ironically, was to slow sprawl.

Villages are threatened, no doubt. Most are at least discussing disincorporation. But the smallest villages have already ceased to exist IMO. Only "strong" villages have been able to make it to this point.

I haven't liked adjectives that are not supported by a reference. I have routinely deleted them! The question here is "what, exactly, are the parameters for a village being termed "small." Having seen many smaller villages that never incorporated or are now disincorporated, my standards may be a bit higher than yours!Student7 (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ready for forking?

The section on unincorporated areas seems a bit long. Maybe it can be forked? The beauty of forking is that then state articles can more easily link to sections. The drawback is that then newbies start adding everything to the main article not realizing that it is already in the forked one!  :) Student7 (talk) 12:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Only if it is called New England unincorporated areas. Most of the area of the the U.S. is unincorporated. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Towns are gathered around town center

This can't have been written by a New Englander, can it? The towns were laid out first by the proprietors. People moved there and eventually most coagulated inside a village inside the town limits, but towns only group themselves around a populated area outside of New England where the entire county is unincorporated, never in New England! Right? This should be reworded. Student7 (talk) 02:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That may be the case in the northern New England states, where towns were chartered before being settled and organized. In Connecticut, and likely in Rhode Island and Massachusetts, compact settlements came first, which were later formalized as towns. Subsequent settlements within these early towns later developed and broke off from their parent towns as the need arose. --Polaron | Talk 04:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

This makes sense. It does suggest that a generalized statement about towns and population centers can't be made for all of New England. Section needs rewriting anyway....Student7 (talk) 12:25, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm the one who wrote the original language, and I have to say that I like the revised language a lot better.

The original language wasn't necessarily intended to suggest that the town centers came first and the towns were then constructed around/named after them, just to note the existence of the "town center" phenomenon, which I think is connected to the stronger civic identity that New England residents typically have with their towns. At least in my area (central Massachusetts), it seems like the early towns always had a town center around which the town common, Congregational Church, town hall, any commercial activity etc. were built. This location almost invariably came to be called "[name of town] Center". Whether or not the town center pre-dated the incorporation of the town, and however you want to characterize the relationship between the two, a town center was almost always present. I think this really is something which distinguishes New England towns from towns/townships in the Middle Atlantic and Midwestern states. In those states, there is much less of a tendency for towns/townships to contain a place with the same name as the town/township, and even when such a place is present, I don't think there is nearly as strong of a "town center" concept. If one visited the town of "Wikipedia, Connecticut", one would be surprised to not enounter a place called "Wikipedia" or "Wikipedia Center", or a "Borough of Wikipedia" within the town. If one visted "Wikipedia Township, Ohio", one would be much less surprised to find that there was no populated place in the township called "Wikipedia".

The only minor quibble I have with the revised language is the comment that towns "usually, but not always" have a town center. A non-New Englander reading this could take it to mean "more than 50% of towns contain populated places bearing the same name as the town, but it's fairly common for towns to not contain a populated place of the same name", which doesn't sound all that different from the situation with towns/townships in some Middle Atlantic and Midwestern states. In reality, I'd say that the percentage of towns in New England that have town centers is more like 90-95% (although the town center isn't always the largest place in the town). A town that doesn't have one is very unusual, though not unheard of. "Almost always" might be a better way to put it. MCT (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Point well taken, so I changed it. I can think of a couple of examples in New Hampshire, but your estimate of 90-95% sounds right to me. --Ken Gallager (talk) 19:20, 7 October 2008 (UTC)