Wikipedia talk:External links

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flickr?

Please share some thoughts on how the External Links guidelines (what to include / what not to include), would apply to the usage of a link to "flickr tagged images of 'x'" in an article about 'x'. See, for example, the Syon House article. Thanks, Lini (talk) 12:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I am opposed to Flickr external links. I think Flickr is an interesting and useful web site. The biggest problem I see is that the content seems to be pretty dynamic. I have seen a number of cases where copyvio images are used there. They may be eventually caught and tagged, but there is an indeterminant window when a link to a Flickr copyvio may be available. Also, external link directly to images, rather than images in the article namespace are a bad idea. It would be used as a mechanism to get around the normal standards within Wikipedia on images. If an image is worth linking to in an EL section, then why can't it be brought into commons and go through the normal process. Even using this method from commons, I have seen where a Flickr image brought into Commons was marked initially as cc-by-sa-2.0, but goiung back to the link to Flickr, the image on Flickr says "All Rights Reserved". Sure, if it "had" been put in the public domain via cc-by-sa-2.0, it can't be put back to all rights reserved, but are we going to get in a legal battle with the photographer to force using an image? Well, that topic is outside of the scope of this conversation. The point is, Flickr images are too volatile, transient and untrustworthy. We should not be dependent on the image policies used by Flickr (which are different from our own) and the capability and efficacy of their enforcement of their policies. Atom (talk) 14:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Flickr is on user:XLinkBot's revertlist for these reasons, it gets often spammed, or there are copyright problems with it. There are only few cases where the link is appropriate, but often it is better to upload the images onto a wikimedia server. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like search engine results to me, and therefore inappropriate under WP:ELNO #9. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't view Flickr links as an equivalent of search engine result pages, because the site relies on a folksonomic approach. Every image is tagged by a human, as opposed to machine-generated content of SERPs. Whether folksonomic links are appropriate external links is worth discussing, but it's a broader issue than just Flickr. - Eureka Lott 17:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's good enough. Nearly every page that Google indexes was created by a human, too. The problem with search engine results is not just the fact that people are smart enough to run their own searches; it's that we can't evaluate them usefully because the content changes every day. It's the same problem that we have with links to blogs: a great piece today -- but next month, it could be garbage, and we'd have no way of knowing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Flikr or no, just links to a bunch of images don't have an encyclopedic purpose. Regardless of where and how these images come up, they are not appropriate per our standards, and the fact that flikr has copyright problems, etc. makes them just that much worse and inappropriate as external links. DreamGuy (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

My reaction to the Flikr link is in line with DreamGuy's observation - it does not seem to contribute encyclopedia-standard information to the article (Syon House). Thanks, everyone, for your input. I am going to go ahead and remove the link. --Lini (talk) 20:16, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Unless the article is about a specific Flickr photostream itself (unlikely, but who knows someday) I'd say avoid it for now. The only exception would be if we had an article about a notable person, and their flickr stream was involved in their notability, or it served as their principle personal website, in which case it's just any old personal site link. rootology (C)(T) 23:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Linking to Songs on YouTube that are uploaded to YouTube by the copyright holder

Hi! I linked songs on YouTube to their corresponding artist page on Wikipedia. I was careful to make sure that the version of the song was one that was uploaded to YouTube by the record company or artist that (I thought) owned copright to those songs. My links were reverted nevertheless. I'm discouraged. Please help me understand how to proceed on this. I believe it really strengthens an artist page on Wikipedia when there are direct links to that artist's songs. Are songs directly uploaded to YouTube by an artist or record company not legal to link to? If yes, am I okay to revert the reverts?  :-[ (Whose responsibility would that be? I'm sad at all the time I've wasted if I was operating under the wrong impression.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichLindvall (talk • contribs) 10:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

As long as you are 100% confident that the copyright holder put the work up on YouTube, you can link to it; however, it is generally the case that such songs are linked only from the individual song articles. If you only have the artist's page on WP, you may want to link to the provide that contains all their submissions instead of individual songs. --MASEM 12:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a purpose to link to a video, and I don't feel comfortable with people off the street deciding that the group uploaded it (because most everybody would just choose to assume they did... it'd open ourselves up to massive copyright violations). Better to link to an official site with the video, if at all. DreamGuy (talk) 20:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

You got an example? rootology (C)(T) 23:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Blogs

Point 11 currently reads as follows.

Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority (as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies).

Blogs and personal web pages are two different things; so it seems odd to me that they are listed so closely together. The portion of the sentence about personal web pages seems fine. I question the portion about blogs though: many blogs are devoted to specialized topics, and can be very useful to know about. Is the point worded correctly? Should it instead read "personal blogs and web pages"?   TheSeven (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The point is that blogs (of all sorts) and personal web pages tend to have very limited fact checking and editorial oversight of the sort that would make them reliable. They also tend to be more on the opinion side of things than the summary of current understanding side. So only those written by people whose general ramblings could be considered particularly pertinent (regardless of whether they had been fact checked etc.) should be included. A blog from a well respected institution and/or that uses well regarded contributor(s) and is known for the particular topic might be appropriate for instance. But a blog that is simply by, say, a minor academic, even at the same institution, probably wouldn't be. -- SiobhanHansa 19:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Kind thanks for explaining. I was thinking primarily about technical subjects, where there is some opinion, but the discussions are mostly about technical issues. For example, there might be a blog on R, or on some aspects of stereos, or on some special type of automobile. Such blogs can be very useful for people in getting up to speed on the subject, yet they might be run by persons who are not notable enough for a Wikipedia entry. I understand what you are saying about reliability. My view, though, is that readers of a Wikipedia article on the subject would benefit from being directed, via External links, to important blogs on technical subjects. And I thought benefit should be the main criterion.   TheSeven (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Benefit is subjective. In the end, we are here to provide encyclopedic information and not to be a web directory. Most blogs of any sort do not meet our standards. DreamGuy (talk) 20:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I understand your point about "encyclopedic infomation", and I agree that general blogs do not fit that. Thanks much for explaining. TheSeven (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Blogs and personal websites aren't automatically different things. Someone's blog may be their personal website. Just tossing that out there. rootology (C)(T) 23:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Personal web pages in external links section

The issue seems to be having personal web pages in the external link section of the article Statistics, judging by the discussion at Talk Statistics. Spam patrollers have dealt with this article repeatedly (it had close to 40 external links in Dec 06, in spite of several efforts, starting in earnest in Aug 06 [1], in order to control the problematic external links section), and it has been the target of many clean-up efforts since then, so I think it is on people's radar already. But I'm afraid I have to leave the issue of explaining how personal web pages differ from pages by authorities to other participants in the spam project, in light of the following talk page entry [2]. Afv2006 (talk) 21:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I see that you did not answer the question. I have undone your revert on WP:EL. TheSeven (talk) 21:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

During the past year or more, I have probably been the most active spam patroller on Statistics External links. I provided some evidence for that on Talk:Statistics. This is the third time today that you have commented on something that you do not appear to have read. TheSeven (talk) 21:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your question: Your edit deleted part of an important sentence - the sentence that reads, "This is meant to be a very limited exception". I don't have a problem with the change of format from footnote to parenthesis. As a matter of fact, I have not authored that section, but edits to accepted guidelines that delete sections without prior discussion are often related to vandalism, which is why you were reverted. Deletions in general need to be discussed before being implemented. Regarding your personal comments to me, I'll answer you here: I monitor this page. It is always the first page I check after a period of absense, as it is important for me to keep up to speed on changes implemented here in order for me to work effectively. When something is deleted by someone without prior involvement in the project, there is usually a dispute brewing somewhere, most often due to the fact that someone has run into limitations when it comes to adding their own link. Appears to be accurate in this case as well. Regarding the spam clean-up of the statistics article, there are many, many editors who have been involved in this major clean-up task, some of them for far longer than a year, although you are of course commended for part-taking as well. Afv2006 (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the very limited exception wording should stay. Without that it's easy for someone skimming the line to read it as endorsing adding the blogs of any notable person who happens to have a blog on the subject. -- SiobhanHansa 22:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

(See my comment below.) My main concern was to incorporate the endnote in the text. The point about notability is too easy to miss if it is in footnote. (I missed it on first reading, and another editor corrected me; so I wanted to give it more prominence--I'm pretty sure that I would not be the only one.) TheSeven (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I have restored "This is meant to be a very limited exception". I removed it before because (a) it did not seem important to me (admittedly a non-expert on this) and (b) removing it made the grammar/sentence flow better. After removing, I put a note on this discussion page [3] and stated that I had trimmed it. (I still have a slight preference to remove it, but will not argue the point.) TheSeven (talk) 22:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Alabama

User:Encyclopediaofalabama has recently added links to several articles, I believe in good faith, to the Encyclopedia of Alabama: a project run by the University of Alabama Press, the Alabama Humanities Foundation, and Auburn University. User:Themfromspace has deleted all of these links as an understandable interpretation of Wikipedia:EL#Advertising_and_conflicts_of_interest. I can understand this, although Themfromspace has also been deleting Encyclopedia of Alabama links from additional pages like Harper Lee. Given Harper Lee's unique connection to Alabama and the nature of the source (article written by Nancy G. Anderson of Auburn University Montgomery and published by the three sources mentioned), I think such links should be allowed to remain (This link was added independently by User:Dystopos back in June 9, 2005). I also think instead of all the warnings it would be best to simply explain to Encyclopediaofalabama Wikipedia:EL#Advertising_and_conflicts_of_interest and that if such links are to be added, they should first be mentioned on the talk page for editors to decide on inclusion. --Jh12 (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. - Jmabel | Talk 23:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Me too, it is very sad the way in which some editors and admins are so opposed to the addition of relevant, useful links. Unfortunately, our policies as they stand and are interpreted are opposed to editors with access to such useful material actually adding it to articles. DuncanHill (talk) 16:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Current Weather information

I'd like to place links to real-time, current weather information on a large number of articles in the external links section for cities, towns and villages. The links would be to the free and non-commercial US National Weather Service and they would go in the external links section. I've looked through this guideline and nothing appears to directly prohibit this, but I thought I would ask prior to starting to add the links. I'd like a specific rationale if this is not recommended / allowed. Maybe its worth mentioning if it is allowed or not allowed in the guideline. Thanks. --Dual Freq (talk) 01:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOT a weather service. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't strike me as encyclopedic information. I'm sure that WikiTravel would like to have something similar, but I'm not sure that it meets the "meaningful, relevant content" clause here. The weather at any given moment in time doesn't really tell you much about the subject of the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

It makes sense to me that real-time information like current weather is not really that useful to an encyclopedia article. However, I've seen that John F. Kennedy International Airport#External links and a few thousand other airport articles have weather and current flight delay information linked. I was thinking that since those seem to be acceptable and relevant, then the same would apply to city articles. They seem to add nothing about the airport, only what the current weather is, but if the airports have it why not cities? Maybe a link in the links normally avoided section should recommend against real-time links like weather or travel delays like aircraft or trains. --Dual Freq (talk) 13:11, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'd support removal of those links as WP:NOT being encyclopedic as well. I'm not sure that we really need to have a special rule about it, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:54, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I also would remove these as nonencyclopedic. For what it's worth, city-specific weather weblinks have even been somewhat controversial at the Open Directory Project, which is a web directory (something that Wikipedia is not), in large part because there is a large number of commercial websites that provide city-specific weather links, and there is no sound basis for choosing to link to some sites but not others. (Also, over time the links have proven to be unstable, making them a maintenance headache.) --Orlady (talk) 23:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't fit an encyclopedia, and all that aside and the points everyone made above, are we going to update the weather daily on each location? :) rootology (C)(T) 23:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Hulu.com

I'd like to know if http://www.hulu.com can be considered as a valid external link. The site hosts legally obtained content from various film and television studios available public viewing, and is currently linked in over 100 articles. However the site content is not accessible outside the United States, thus a violation of item #7 under 'Links to be avoided'. There has been a discussion on WikiProject Films that resulted in favor of the site and even a separate template has been created for inclusion of site link. LeaveSleaves (talk) 15:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Not only that, but the actual content (shows, vs. promotional materials) are only available for a limited time. It seems like a bad, but not terrible, idea to link to Hulu or any other site with the same lack of content stability. The non-US restrictions seem like a valid as well, so I see no reason to contravene item #7. Jclemens (talk) 16:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I've gotta agree with Jclemens; Hulu fails WP:ELNO #7 and #16. Showing the link with a disclaimer that it's useless outside of the US might get you an exception to #7, but the temporary nature of Hulu listings is unavoidable. At least the advertising isn't horrible though... from what I'm seeing it's not much worse than most ad-supported video sites. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hulu links are certainly not ideal, but I suspect that they're often the only legal source for the video content. So, which is worse: an external link that doesn't completely comply with the guidelines, or having no links to the material at all? - Eureka Lott 19:16, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It's much worse to have a link that doesn't comply with the guideline. We don't add copyvio or malware links just because they offer information not available elsewhere. 2005 (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, if its noted via a non-hulu.com source that the show is available at hulu.com, I see no reason why this can't be included in the article (not the link to the hulu video itself, just the note about availability). --MASEM 22:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not think that a sentence that says, "The video is available at hulu.com"^[ref] is really the sort of thing that you want in an encyclopedia article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

If the video just happens to be there, and there's no third-party source that goes into more detail, I agree, just saying an episode is onl Hulu (w/o Hulu link) is not worthwhile. But, say, take Dr. Horrible, there are third-party sources to say it appeared on Hulu (such as this), so we can state that this is the case as it's notable coverage of the topic. --MASEM 17:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

No: Blogs are not reliable sources. Even if a reliable source said such a thing, it wouldn't matter. This guideline does not apply to references. You cannot link to Hulu.com under ==External links== just because a cited source (under ==References==) mentions the website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

---

I also agree that links to this site violate 7 and 8 (and 16). I don't see how having a link to view the episodes adds any extra value to an article. Before the site, it was never needed...people primarily watch episodes on TV or video. We don't link off to the channels to find the next air date, nor to stores. This, to me, would be no different from adding iTunes and YouTube links to all series/films that have legal content on either. We also don't generally link to movie trailers because, again, seeing the video isn't so necessary or providing such rare information that its worth an exemption to the guidelines. If its agreed here that it is not an appropriate link, I think it would be appropriate to have the template deleted, as has been done in other such cases. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 21:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I think an exception should be made for Hulu. When the link goes dead, it can be removed. If there is an online version of an article topic, without copyvio and other issues, we should link to it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? What encyclopedic value does it add to warrant an exception? -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 17:34, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

It could potentially aid in making some primary-source references more easily verifiable. Of course, ideally, we'd have secondary sources for everything, but for things like the plot of a television episode often the primary source is the best reference.

Consider a hypothetical non-video example: a novel, with established encyclopedic notability, is made legally available online, but only for a limited time, and to readers in one region. I think that in that circumstance, we would say that there is encyclopedic value in letting readers in that region know that they can read the novel at such-and-such an address. I don't see how telling readers that they can view a television episode or film at such-and-such an address is any different.

The BBC makes its programmes available for a limited time on its iPlayer service, which is available only to UK IPs. Do we have an established policy about that? It seems similar. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The primary source is actually the release of the film or first airing of an episode. This is just a reproduction. And I agree with Josiah, if this is agreed on, there would be requests for iPlayer as well. A similar condition can be said about the network site themselves that allow full episode access based on region. LeaveSleaves (talk) 18:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there certainly seems to be a need for a precedent that spans beyond hulu.com. One question: Are any of the dead-link determination bots able to find inoperable rich media links? If one exists or could be coded adequately for each such site where content is somewhat ephemeral, it would somewhat reduce the mess of having dead links to removed content. Jclemens (talk) 18:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

That, to me, falls squarely in with WP:NOTNEWS. Its one thing to mention, where sourcable, that episodes were released to iTunes, or whatever, but I do not think we need to link to every last possible online viewing method, particularly if they are primarily temporary links. If people want to view them online, they can follow the relevant links from the official sites (and if the official sites aren't linking to Hulu, to me that tells me we don't need to be doing it either).-- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 18:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps slightly off point, but WP:NOTNEWS doesn't seem to have the clout it once did, else we wouldn't have the current political coverage that we do. There are a large number of editors who don't seem to think recentism or lack of enduring value are large problems, and I perceive this to be a symptom of that shift. Jclemens (talk) 18:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

So what, we should put in some sort of disclaimer that says the content of the site might change, as is done on current event articles? Or at least try and find out what is the shelf life of a media on that site? LeaveSleaves (talk) 18:30, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me expand on Collectonian's point: Wikipedia is WP:NOT#LINKS. If a reader wants to find something online, the reader can ask Mr Google. Our purpose is to write an encyclopedia, not to provide a comprehensive list of links to the original source for a variety of formats, locations, and times. Providing a link to a television show is not a requirement for an encyclopedia article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I love Hulu, but Hulu absolutely does not meet our requirements for external links. We are not a web directory, period, and the links serve no encyclopedic purpose. DreamGuy (talk) 02:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there a bright line which distinguishes an external link which serves an encyclopedic purpose from one which does not? It is reasonable for an article about an author in a printed encyclopedia to list all his or her works; it seems reasonable for an article about an author in a hyperencyclopedia to list links to all his or her works and to rich media where he or she discussed the works. If an article about a playwright says "she spoke at the Actors' Studio," it would make sense for there to be a reference to the video of the speech; and if the video is on Hulu, that is what should be referred. Eustace (talk) 03:36, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

That might not be a bad argument if Hulu content was going to be available 1) indefinitely, or 2) worldwide. As of now, Hulu is neither, and that pretty much puts a stake in its encyclopedic value. Jclemens (talk) 03:53, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Once again: This guideline has nothing to do with links to reliable sources that are used to support information in an article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

There considerable barriers to clearing the rights to worldwide distribution of conventionally-licensed material make "available worldwide" much too severe a standard. Indefinite availability is highly desirable, but more so for a static reference work such as a printed catalog than an adaptive one such as Wikipedia. It is not hard to see how a breadcrumb trail of legitimate sites which hosted a work would be of use to someone in the future attempting to locate that work, and during the times when there is a host, an active external link to the work will be of immediate value to typical users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eustace Tilley (talk • contribs) 13:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Such a link addition would require constant monitoring whether the content is still available or has the link gone dead. This can't be a desirable situation, particularly when the link has already been added to a number of articles and granting it to be valid would lead to its inclusion in more articles. Plus in terms of availability of TV shows, major network sites host full episodes that are accessible for a much longer time. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 13:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

At this moment, at least one of the major networks offers a distinctly lower resolution version of their content through their site than they do through Hulu. All links, internal as well as external, suffer from decay risk. Monitoring and healing decay are a special strength of wiki. We should not deprive users today because we may not be able to provide for users in the future. Eustace (talk) 17:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Deprive? Please. We don't link to Google, nor do we link to pirate sites of copyrighted content, even though both of them would unqestionably help some users find what they're looking for. The more I see the arguments in favor of Hulu links, the less I like the idea. Hulu is one specific commercial enterprise that benefits financially from viewership--it's something Wikimedia in general and the English Wikipedia have no business supporting, any more than we link books to Amazon. Jclemens (talk) 17:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the case of death of a link, and not decay. And the only possible way of monitoring these links that I can think of, is to actually know when are this videos are removed from Hulu, of which I can find no record. And there's also the matter of access of the content to limited users. If the content is only accessible in US, where the show has been aired for mass audience, who also have a direct access of the content on the network site, I don't see what additional contribution does Hulu make. Other than perhaps, better quality of video, something that bores no importance in regard with addition of the link. ^LeaveSleaves _talk 18:10, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

JSTOR links

Can someone clarify specifically whether links to http://www.jstor.org/ are within policy? This is a database of scholarly articles which can be read by paid subscription only. The policy on the Citations and External Links pages reads:

The purpose of citing sources is to ensure that the content of articles can be checked by any reader or editor. ... one should avoid ... links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content, unless the site itself is the subject of the article, or the link is a convenience link to a citation. ... Sites that require registration or a paid subscription should be avoided because they are of limited use to most readers. ... A site that requires registration or a subscription should not be linked unless the web site itself is the topic of the article or is being used as an inline reference.

But some people on other talk pages say it's ok to add JSTOR links as long as a citation of the original print source is also given. (Maybe the part about "inline reference" is a loophole, but I don't understand what that means.) Strawberryjampot (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has separate guidelines for external links and references. What works well for one may not be appropriate for the other. So, while Jstor links can be very handy for references, they do not belong in an article's external links section. If you're still concerned about The Greek Myths article, the Jstor links are being used properly there. - Eureka Lott 18:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"Inline reference" means that the link is being used as a citation for information. Most footnotes on Wikipedia are inline references. Citations exist to show that material is supported by reliable sources. Many reliable sources are not freely accessible, but are available via many library systems. There is no meaningful difference between a JSTOR reference and a reference to a print source — either one is verifiable by going to an academic library, where you can either check out the journal in question or view it via the library's JSTOR subscription. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Format

External links section currently says:

Most external links should present different details than citations. For instance, a concise description of the contents and a clear indication of its source is more important than the actual title of the page, and access dates are not appropriate in the external links section. Because citation templates were not designed for use in the External links section, editors that use citation templates in this section should be careful to ensure the resulting description is appropriate for an external link.

I think this advise is wrong for several reasons:

• There is no reason if the external link has an author, title, and date of publication why these should not be part of the information provided along with the publisher, just as we do for any other reliable source in any other section. It will help readers to gauge at a glance if the link provided is to a reliable source.
• It allows the list to be sorted on author which removes one of the POVs when deciding the ordering of a list of external links.
• It is one of the biggest obstacles in maintaining Longevity of links. If a URL becomes obsolete unless some clue is given as to the title and the author of the piece it is next to impossible to find the article again given just a general description and unless one read and remembered the link before it went missing there is no way of knowing if one is replacing like with like. But if the title and the author is know then if the page has moved it is usually relatively easy to find it.

There for I suggest that we take a lead from WP:CITE:

External links for world wide web articles (for reliable sources such as the Australian War Memorial) typically include:

• the name of the author or authors,
• the title of the article in quotes,
• the name of the website (linked to a Wikipedia article about the site if it exists, or to Website's "about page"),
• date of publication,
• page number(s) (if applicable),
• the date you retrieved it (invisible to the reader if the article has a date of publication),
• optional concise description

Other descriptions for other types of links can be added if this template needs alteration to suit those other types. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:43, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Except an external link is not a reference. External links shouldn't include all of that unless it actually is being used for references. If all of that information is available, it seems like it is is likely to be a reliable source and should be used as such. Alternatively, put it in further reading. It isn't a plain, external link.-- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 16:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

No, external links are not citations, and most definitely should not always look like them. Additionally sorting external links by author is illogical and unhelpful. Sorts in external links should be the official sites first always, then in some cases by link type (interviews togetherm rich media together), jumbling them up by an irrelevancy is not helpful. the point though is this guideline makes a great effort to distinguish external links from citations, and we should continue to do so. 2005 (talk) 23:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I think some info is useful and expected in an external link - Name of article, name of publication or site it is on. Maybe the author if it's significant in some way (someone somebody might recognize and know what they'd be seeing if they clicked it based upon the name). That's all good so that people sort of get an idea of what they'll see if they go to the link. Maybe a short description if it's not already obvious from the title of the page or article. But things like page numbers and especially the date when you went there are completely pointless. DreamGuy (talk) 03:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this is ill-advised, and I oppose the proposed change to make external links look like references. Furthermore, some excellent external links can't be shoe-horned into that system very easily. Consider an external link to an online calculator: It's not an article. It has no "publication date". It probably has no visible author. It may not have a proper title. Adding the access date for something that is supposed to be working now (and can be immediately removed if the link goes dead) is silly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Why should external links not look like citations? For many articles what is an official site? For other articles which involve entrenched political views which official site should be placed first? The section External links already list sites that ought not be included, adding author and publisher helps people judge at a glance if the site is one that ought to be in the list. WhatamIdoing please note I said "article" above and that "Other descriptions for other types of links can be added if this template needs alteration to suit those other types" which I intended to cover such things as maps, calculators Album descriptions, etc. Also what is silly in including information that informs the reader of the date when an article was reviewed for inclusion. Its contents may have changed since it was added to the list and is no longer relevant. What is silly about providing information for editors to make it possible to fix a useful link to an external article if it becomes broken? After all many URLs become broken because the a site map alters and without information that allows a search for an article on author, title or a content string, it is next to impossible to find from just a description. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 08:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Instead of phrasing things backwards you should be promoting your opinion. The reason that citations should not look like external links is self evident. They aren't the same. The only argument you make "adding author and publisher helps people judge at a glance if the site is one that ought to be in the list" is a very bad concept. Only a terrible editor would make a judgment "at a glance" about whether a link should or should not be there because of listed author or publisher. Since there is no reason we should confuse users or make terrible editing easier, keeping layout how it is is the best way to go. 2005 (talk) 12:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Philip external link descriptions should let a reader know what the link is about so they can decide if they are interested in clicking on it - titles often fail to do this well. Authors - or at least the source of the information ("Mayo Clinic article" for example) - especially when notable themselves, can help a reader decide if the provenance is such that they are more (or less) interested in looking. And dates can occasionally be useful for a reader - especially if it's an historical account or current event. But these things need considering on a case by case basis and will normally differ from that which would be used if the page were being listed as a citation.

In general we should be making sure that we focus the presentation so that it is not overwhelmed by detail that serves our editors more than our general readers. I don't see anything wrong with including the rest of the citation detail in such a manner that it is invisible to the reader, though I don't see any need to recommend the practice since in general external links are not critical to articles in the way citations are. -- SiobhanHansa 14:15, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

"Why should external links not look like citations?" Because that's not the practice at Wikipedia. In this instance, this guideline accurately documents the choices made by thousands of editors in hundreds of thousands of articles. If a link breaks and can't be replaced because "Information from the Mayo Clinic about this disease" can't be found -- then who exactly cares? It's just an external link. It's not important to the article. Dead links get deleted all the time without the world coming to an end. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Is MoviePosterDB.com an EL?

Template:Mpdb movie is a template for adding links to MoviePosterDB.com to articles. MoviePosterDB.com's own article was deleted as spam and a non-notable website on February 6. The template was nominated for deletion on the same day, but somehow the discussion was never closed. It has now been renominated for deletion Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2008 September 21#Template:Mpdb movie, in part due to the feeling that this site completely fails the EL guidelines, including being a potential copyright violation as the images are all uploaded by users with no checking done to ensure they are being used within fair use requirements. To me, this is no different than linking to Flickr, Photobucket, Deviantart.com or any other user edited image site, hence my nominating the template for deletion. Additional views are needed at the TfD regarding whether this his a legitimate link, and if the template should be kept or deleted. -- [[::User:Collectonian|Collectonian]] ([[::User talk:Collectonian|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Collectonian|contribs]]) 02:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

From their site... In late 2004 I (jayef) decided to start a movieposter database. My friend (Roman) helped me to code the whole site and it went online in december 2004! While the site was growing really fast, the site got overloaded and we had to get another server. I'd say that they are not an EL as they clearly don't own all these posters and their images. The others you mention, Flickr, Photobucket, Deviantart, or Youtube, etc., are all OK to link to if they are demonstrated to belong to the given Article subject and are also relevant. Template links to movieposterdb.com, not so much. rootology (C)(T) 13:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Why Doesn't It Work?

Why doesn't [www.theseems.com] work as a link to a website? Please let me know by answering beneath this entry. Mollymoon (talk) 22:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

You have to include the http:// part: [4]. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

what this means

Lists of links to manufacturers, suppliers or customers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kasaalan (talk • contribs) 17:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It primarily covers links to pages that list "all the places you can buy this". Consider the iPod article. We like to Apple.com because it's their product. We don't link to a page that lists all the factories that produce things like this (potential manufacturers). We don't link to a page that lists all the thousands of stores (suppliers) that sell iPods. We don't link to a page that lists all of the millions of people (or hundreds of celebrities) that own an iPod. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Link Policy?

I joined Wikipedia a few weeks ago, and yesterday I started to go through CAT:ELC. Many of the links I've removed were pretty obviously policy violations but I noticed a trend in many articles: there seems to be a division of links into oppose/support sub sections. like in Book_of_Mormon#External_links. Is there a specific policy covering this? It seems like a bad idea, because it encourages people to add sites that may not be important or useful just because those sites hold a specific viewpoint (I noticed this especially in 9/11_Commission_Report. On another note; I think that external links in general rarely make the encyclopedia better, it’s so easy to find information with a search engine that listing other sites seems almost redundant.→(_Speak•^MorgothX•_Havoc) 01:33, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts. You may want to put Wikipedia:WikiProject External links and Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam on your watchlist so you can stay in touch with other editors that do similar things. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Would that be a better place to ask my question?→(_Speak•^MorgothX•_Havoc) 18:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no policy against organizing links by subject or POV. In fact, we encourage the identification of non-neutral websites, so the reader knows what s/he is getting into. To the extent that one link attracts another, it's just necessary to weed the linkfarm periodically. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Subsections are usually a no-no. Policy is that external links should be used sparingly. If a resource doesn't add particular descriptive value beyond that provided by the article (for instance it is a link to a group which promotes a certain viewpoint, but where the site itself is of no real additional value) then it should be removed. That normally suffices. YMMV on how well the article's regalars take such pruning on controversial subjects of course. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

That may depend on exactly what you mean. I avoid ===Subsections===, but fairly often use Subsections to organize links. (See Solar cooker#External_links for an example of what I like; see Lymphoma#External_links for what I don't like.) Usually, this is a preparatory step to deleting one or more of the Subsections. If we can all agree that these links belong in Information and those links belong in Charities this week, then it reduces the confusion when we decide next week that we don't need to provide links to any charities at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If an EL list is too long, but the links are potentially useful (i.e. could lead to or become cited-references for the article's content), it is often a good idea to move them to the talkpage, instead of just deleting them. Particularly in the case of stubs, where well-meaning non-writer editors will often add links in the hope that someone else will turn the linked information into article-content (e.g. lists of academic papers, news-articles, interviews, reviews, etc). -- Quiddity (talk) 17:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Style or content?

I think this guideline includes both style and content information. It certainly tells people what they may and may not include, which is content. It also tells people where to put the list of links and how to format them, which is style. What shall we pick? Is it possible to list it in both categories? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)