Talk:Charles Ives: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
add archivebox
move all pre-2011 discussion to archive 1
Line 31: Line 31:
*[[Talk:Charles Ives/Archive 2|Archive 2 (1 January 2011 to TBD)]]}}
*[[Talk:Charles Ives/Archive 2|Archive 2 (1 January 2011 to TBD)]]}}
__TOC__
__TOC__

== Revise sentence ==

The sentence "Although he is now best known for his instrumental music, he composed two string quartets and other works of chamber music" (found in the first paragraph of the second section) could use some revision. Chamber music is a type of instrumental music. Is "orchestral music" the intended phrase?

:You're correct; I fixed it. Thanks! [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus]] 22:55, 2 May 2005 (UTC)


The photo description "Charles Ives, left, captain of the baseball team and pitcher for Hopkins Grammar School"

Shouldn't it be "captain of Hopkins Grammar School and pitcher of the baseball team"?
[[User:Rwiggans|Rwiggans]] ([[User talk:Rwiggans|talk]]) 02:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

:Nope, he was indeed both pitcher and captain of the baseball team while at Hopkins. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 03:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

== Request for references ==

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the [[Wikipedia:Verifiability]] policy. Part of that is to make sure articles [[Wikipedia:Cite sources|cite their sources]]. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check|Fact and Reference Check Project]] has more information. Thank you, and please [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Taxman&action=edit&section=new leave me a message] when you have added a few references to the article. - [[User:Taxman|Taxman]] 17:12, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

==Vandalism==
Hey nerds, stop vandalizing.

== Should this be in the Introduction? ==

Ives, who died in 1954 in New York City, left behind material for an unfinished Universe Symphony. Although there have been several attempts at completion, none has found its way into general performance.

This is certainly interesting information, but hardly introductory (the symphony, I mean; date and place of death are appropriate here). After this article passes its time as featured, I plan on editing this.
[[User:Joshuabowman|JPB]] 15:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

:No, I don't think it should be in the intro either; it's detail which is better covered elsewhere in the article, as indeed it is. Definitely feel free to edit it. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus]] 18:00, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

== Date of Yale entry? ==

The Charles Ives article lists him born in 1874 and entering Yale in 1864. I'm a novice at Music History, but I don't think that could be right. Maybe it's 1894? -PSS

:You are correct--he started at Yale in September 1894, and graduated in 1898. He only began studying with Parker seriously in 1896; it appears he only audited his courses for the first two years (that's not in the article... yet). [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 20:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

== The rest is silence ==

Ives was virtually silent for the last 30 years of his life. Shouldn't there be some attempt to explain this?

:I added a paragraph. The reason is not known for certain; there are lots of theories, but the story told by Harmony to John Kirkpatrick is pretty well known. [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 04:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

::So what ''is'' the story told by Harmony? --[[User:Wspencer11|Wspencer11]] [[User talk:Wspencer11|(talk to me...)]] 19:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

::: Pretty well known. Those in the know, know, you know? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/68.163.65.9|68.163.65.9]] ([[User talk:68.163.65.9|talk]]) 22:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

::::Well, it ''was'' in there. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Charles_Ives&diff=23571557&oldid=23227944 This] was the paragraph I added in 2005, but the article has been beat up a bit since then. "Harmony's story" is the one about him coming down the stairs with tears in his eyes, saying "nothing sounds right any more." [[User:Antandrus|Antandrus ]] [[User_talk:Antandrus|(talk)]] 22:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

== Influence of Dvorak ==

"The first symphony of 1898 was Ives’ graduation piece from Yale and is directly modelled on the spiritual godfather of all American symphonies, Dvorak’s New World which had been premiered just five years previously in New York. Although it sounds closer to Dvorak than it does to Ives’ own mature works it still contains many fascinating insights into the composer he was soon to become."
- quoted form
http://www.necgroup.co.uk/visitor/whatson/2005
Given the strong early influence of Dvorak, why is this not mentioned?

== Low marks at Yale ==

If i'm not mistaken didn't Ives receive either an overall grade of F or similar failing grade in music, or was it low scores in just some music courses? If so, it would be interesting to include this in the article!
:If I remember correctly, he had a C average in music coures and a D average for everything else. Though I can't recall a source for that. --[[User:Mahlered|Mahlered]] 08:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
He got around a middling B in music and Ds in everything else <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/{{{IP|{{{User|86.149.49.69}}}}}}|{{{IP|{{{User|86.149.49.69}}}}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{IP|{{{User|86.149.49.69}}}}}}|talk]]) {{{Time|18:52, August 20, 2007 (UTC)}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== His interest in popular reception ==

I think this should be verified.

== Maynard Solomon article ==

Why no mention of the [[Maynard Solomon]] contentions? It seems rather central to a modern understanding of Ives.

Well his claims have been largely debunked and rejected by most Ives scholars such as Jan Swafford, and considering they mostly arose 20 years ago, I don't think it's worth adding. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/131.111.8.102|131.111.8.102]] ([[User talk:131.111.8.102|talk]]) 23:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== State of the article ==

This article looks to me like a candidate for some significant cleanup. It needs overall reorganization, a large number of sentences have rather clunky structure with useless words abounding, and the overall feel is pretty amateurish. I will do what I can but I encourage you to help out too! --[[User:Wspencer11|Wspencer11]] [[User talk:Wspencer11|(talk to me...)]] 19:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

:I have attempted to address the clunky sentence structure in the first part of the 'Early Music' section. The 'two pillars' part was a bit vague and I didn't know if it included his father or the 'two pillars' of outdoor music and instrumentation-so I just replaced it with 'interests' and hope it flows better. --[[User:Godfinger|Godfinger]] 11:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

:I've tried improving a few other sentences too, which I feel needed improving to avoid the amateurish tone. It is easy to get carried away so I'll leave it for now as I don't want to mess anything up if it is getting any where close to featured article status. But I still think there is a lot of stylistic problems with parts of the article. --[[User:Godfinger|Godfinger]] 14:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the second paragraph of the "Early Music" section (about the "Variations on America") is entirely redundant, as its material is better covered by the fourth paragraph in the same section. There is a recording on Naxos 8.570559 of [a transcription of] the "Variations on America" played by "The President's Own" United States Marine Band, recorded in June 2003.
[[Special:Contributions/86.13.158.235|86.13.158.235]] ([[User talk:86.13.158.235|talk]]) 04:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

== For me, this seems a bit unclear ==
<Quote>
His works have dissonance, which comes from untrained voices singing a hymn together: some voices straining and sharpening the pitch, others just missing and flattening the pitch, creating a cluster of tones instead of a single tone.
<unquote>

I think I know what you are saying, but it sounds like "dissonance comes from untrained voices..." etc. I think that perhaps you mean that Ives creates the image of "untrained voices, missing pitches, etc" by using dissonance and other things (cluster tones, polytonality, etc.)

Anyway, I don't mean to take away from such a great article, just to say that for me this was unclear. It seems as if the article is defining dissonance, and that isn't what dissonance is. Just my opinion. Ditto BTW on Polyrythm.
Thanks! --[[Special:Contributions/83.145.228.42|83.145.228.42]] ([[User talk:83.145.228.42|talk]]) 22:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

:: yeah i don't think discussing the origins of ives' compositional devices in hymn-culture belongs in the introduction anyway (see [[Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Lead_section|WP:BETTER]]), and is probably [[WP:OR|original research]]. [[Special:Contributions/70.49.253.29|70.49.253.29]] ([[User talk:70.49.253.29|talk]]) 23:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not original research perse - it is true to an extent that his experiences with choral music influenced his experimental thought and this has been commented on many times. However ths is not the only place where is 'comes from', so the information as writ is not correct. The wording of that section is appalling, and I agree that this is not really information that should go in the introduction. If someone wants to paraphrase this in a less clmusy way in a later section of the article (making it clear that there were many other influences on his poltonality, polyrythms and dissonance), then that would be great. If not, I will do it in about 1 weeks time, to allow enough people to comment on this. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/86.149.54.164|86.149.54.164]] ([[User talk:86.149.54.164|talk]]) 00:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:: I have edited it now [[Special:Contributions/131.111.8.104|131.111.8.104]] ([[User talk:131.111.8.104|talk]]) 08:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

==An image on this page may be deleted==
This is an automated message regarding an image used on this page. The image [[:File:1997 Charles Ives stamp.jpg]], found on [[:Charles Ives]], has been nominated for deletion because it does not meet Wikipedia image policy. Please see the image description page for more details. If this message was sent in error (that is, the image is not up for deletion, or was left on the wrong talk page), please contact this bot's operator. <!--bot warning File:1997 Charles Ives stamp.jpg--> [[User:STBotI|STBotI]] ([[User talk:STBotI|talk]]) 17:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

==WikiProject Contemporary music==
See list at top of this page. I do not think Charles Ives meets the criteria for [[WikiProject Contemporary music]]. [[User:Davidships|Davidships]] ([[User talk:Davidships|talk]]) 17:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

:Everywhere Ives is taught, discussed or critiqued, he's assigned contemporary music status. I would never question his inclusion in that project. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 19:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

== Composer project review ==

I've reviewed this article as part of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Composers|Composers project]] review of its B-class articles. This article is still B-class; things mentioned in the last FAR have still not been addressed, 18 months later. My full review (which mentions some other things), is on the [[/Comments|comments]] page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. ''[[User:Magicpiano|<span style="background-color:khaki;color:firebrick;">Magic</span>]]''[[User_talk:Magicpiano|♪piano]] 19:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

==Stamp image removal==
I have removed the stamp image [[:File:1997 Charles Ives stamp.jpg]] because it a non-free image of a stamp that fails [[WP:NFC#Images]] which clearly states: ''"Stamps and currency: For identification of the stamp or currency, not its subject''', which was the use here, so it may not be used in this article. This use is improper and must be removed. If you disagree you may want to familiarise yourself with the following: [[WP:NFCC#3a]], [[WP:NFCC#8]], [[WP:NFC#Images]], and [[User:BKNFCC/FAQ|this FAQ]] to better understand the issues. Sorry. [[User:Ww2censor|ww2censor]] ([[User talk:Ww2censor|talk]]) 04:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
:The FAQ doesnt mention stamps, which are public domain in most countries and much used in de: articles such as [[Nelly Sachs]]. US stamps, [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Stamp/America I now understand], are PD only if issued before 1978. [[User:Sparafucil|Sparafucil]] ([[User talk:Sparafucil|talk]]) 06:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

== Link to Peermusic Classical website ==

This information is being added so that English speaking readers will know the availability of works by Charles Ives in the catalog of Peermusic Classical. Most composers’ works are represented by more than one publisher, which can cause consternation for interested parties. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/216.139.153.138|216.139.153.138]] ([[User talk:216.139.153.138|talk]]) 20:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Aleatoric Elements? ==

I have become a recent admirer of Ives. In the beginning of this article, it is said some of his works contained "aleatoric elements." Reading both this article and the one on aleatoric music, I have found no specific mention of how Ives incorporated aleatory into any of his music. Nor was any available on the internet, as far as my searches could prove, and being a novice to his works I could not inform myself. Could anyone tell me how Ives implemented chance in any of his music? If not, I suggest mentions of it be removed. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Chakibi|Chakibi]] ([[User talk:Chakibi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Chakibi|contribs]]) 01:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== Possessive's rule ==
== Possessive's rule ==

According to [[MOS:POSS]], it should be done the way it's pronounced. I've never heard it pronounced Ives's (Ivezez) but rather simply Ives' (Ivez). If I'm mistaken, please undo the two changes I've made. --[[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 21:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
According to [[MOS:POSS]], it should be done the way it's pronounced. I've never heard it pronounced Ives's (Ivezez) but rather simply Ives' (Ivez). If I'm mistaken, please undo the two changes I've made. --[[User:Walter Görlitz|Walter Görlitz]] ([[User talk:Walter Görlitz|talk]]) 21:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 21:25, 15 September 2011

Former featured articleCharles Ives is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 2, 2005.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
December 18, 2003Featured article candidatePromoted
April 4, 2006Featured article reviewKept
October 13, 2007Featured article reviewDemoted
Current status: Former featured article
WikiProject iconSpoken Wikipedia
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Wikipedia articles

Possessive's rule

According to MOS:POSS, it should be done the way it's pronounced. I've never heard it pronounced Ives's (Ivezez) but rather simply Ives' (Ivez). If I'm mistaken, please undo the two changes I've made. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Charles_Ives&oldid=450707605"