Talk:European Americans

This needs references. and used by who? When? Where? All we have is the why... --Sketchee 02:10, Jan 30, 2005 (UTC)

Use of this term seems to ignore historical treatment of some European immigrants to the United States, such as Irish Roman Catholics until recently and Germans during the First World War. Acjelen 01:22, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've only ever encountered this term in connection with white supremacists like David Duke, who describes himself as a "European-American civil rights lawyer". --Angr 09:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The derisive comments on this page only underscore the need for European-Americans to unite in much the same way ALL other ethnic groups but we have. We have no voice, no leader representing our issues. What conceivable relevance has the treatment of Irish Catholics -- a canard also used in the immigration debate to justify mass (often illegal) immigration -- to the discussion of a satisfactory nomenclature for our people? ANY discussion of white identify results in the speaker's being tarred as a "white supremacist."

I had to look up canard in my dictionary. I'll remember to use it often as a euphemism. The danger with the term "European American" is that it can only accurately describe some group of Americans during the 20th century (and probably the later part of it). Prior to that, Americans the majority of whose ancestors lived in Europe were not part of a single "ethnic group". History must deal with the individual nationalities coming to this country from Europe. Indeed, Europe as we now consider it is a relatively recent idea. Happily, those German-Americans, Polish-Americans, Hungarian-Americans, Ashkenazi-Americans, Roma-Americans, English-Americans, Scots-Irish-Americans, etc. let go of their Old World strife and have intermarried to such an extent that we now have European-Americans.

I find the term much more satisfactory, personally, than "non-hispanic white," as I've been asked to identify myself on countless government forms.

This article is somewhat inaccurate. It says that the "European-Americans" are also called white or caucasian. It sort of gives people the idea idea that white or caucasian only means European, when "white" or "caucasian" also refers to white-Americans who are of non-European background such as Turks, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese, Armenians, etc.--Gramaic 09:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

problems

I have several problems with this page:

1. It gives the impression that this is a common term in the United States, at least, which is most certainly is not. I have lived in the U.S. since birth (31 years) and have rarely heard this term used in general conversation or even in official designation. The main times I remember hearing it used were ironically either used by white racists, such as Duke, or were used in satire, apparently in an attempt to make fun of or denigrate other "hyphenated American" terms. Regardless of whether this intended satire has any legitimacy or truth to it (I personally think it does), the usage of the term in actual life in the U.S. is misrepresented here.

I think Americans with European ancestry have reached a level of integration which brings about a desire for their own identity and an easier way to talk about the history of European immigration to the United States and the prior colonies (as well as the unique experiences of these immigrants and their descendants). Americans without ancestry from the British Isles may also wish to use the term to bring attention to the fact that in the past the study of American history hardly included them anymore than Americans with African, Asian, or Mexican heritage. Since the WASPy nature of "white" America is now nostalgia and provencialism, we may need another term to discuss this segment of the population. -Acjelen 9 July 2005 04:57 (UTC)

Since when does "a level of integration bring about a desire for...identity and an easier way to talk about the history of...immigration"? I'm "European American", and I don't find any desire in myself to "find a shared identity" with anyone and everyone descended from non-British European immigrants. Is it now impossible for someone to feel that they're truly American without becoming hyphenated?? How is it possible that this group (or any such group) is deserving of identity *now*, when they are *more* assimilated into American culture, than when they were previously?? It just seems to me that all this hyphenation and "group identity" happening in this country is a result of current political and social trends, and does little to actually understand history. Believe it or not, it's quite possible to learn about African, Asian, and Mexican immigration history to the United States without having to conjure up "identities" like "African American", "Asian American", or "Mexican American". In fact, these "identities" actually get in the way, as they arbitrarily bunch together a group of people who have *individual* stories and histories regarding their ancestry and immigration.

But this is besides the point. My main point is that this term is not used much in the United States, except by white supremacists, and to most Americans, it conjures up pictures of David Duke and white racists more than anything else. I may not agree with terms like "African American", either, but at least these are widespread and adopted terms, which this one is not. The article does not reflect this. Revolver 9 July 2005 10:20 (UTC)

2. "Europe" is itself a relatively recent social construction in terms of identity, so I see little justification for the use of the term, personally. But then again, I have the same opinion and criticisms about the term African American, and this term seems to have caught on (unfortunately, IMHO). Europe itself is (like Africa and black Americans of African descent) a place of extremely varied cultures, ethniticies, histories, and identities.

And, of course, recent immigrants to America from Europe may wish to use the term to distinguish themselves. -Acjelen 9 July 2005 04:57 (UTC)

Distinguish themselves *from what*?? We're all distinguished from each other at some level. This is just a politically motivated attempt to forge divisive group identities under the guise of historical scholarship. Revolver 9 July 2005 10:20 (UTC)

3. The picture seems misleading. Where do the data come from? The info with it gives the impression that it refers to "whites", whereas the article says this is different from "European American". This should be cleared up and clarified.

4. The link at the bottom (as of 8 July) is to a website that appears racist and only confirms my first point. One of the main articles listed at this site questions whether "Zionists and Jews" are running the country into ruin. Revolver 9 July 2005 00:31 (UTC)

Caucasian-American

As all of you are aware, Caucasian-American redirects to this article. Caucasian-American should be a seperate article, because the term "Caucasian" also refers to non-Europeans such as Middle Easterners and North Africans. It's a big mistake having Caucasian-Americans redirect to this article! --Gramaic | Talk 08:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Is it really used that way? I've seen Caucasian and Caucasian-American used to refer to European-descended individuals, but I don't know any people of Middle-Eastern descent who wouldn't rather be called Middle-Eastern-descended.--Nectarflowed ^T 10:17, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the term goes beyond European. In fact, take a look at Race (U.S. Census) which is a copy of the real U.S. Census definition, and the definition of White/Caucasian would be; a person that descends from the original people of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. You could also look up the word Caucasian in the dictionary and the defintion would be; person who is the original inhabitant of Europe, Southwest Asia, North Africa, and Indian Sub-Continent.

<quote>I don't know any people of Middle-Eastern descent who wouldn't rather be called Middle-Eastern-descended.<quote/> Actually most (if not all) Middle Easterners in the United States refer to themselves as White or Caucasian-American. Yes there are some Middle Eastern people who would rather not refer to themselves as Caucasian, but as just Middle Eastern. In fact, I've seen some Italians who are of course White and European-Americans refer to themselves and referring to all Italians as non-White, but that doesn't mean that Italians are actually non-White. So that's why Caucasian-American should be a seperate article, rather than be a redirect to this article. --Gramaic | Talk 20:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the definition; I was speaking regarding a discrepancy between official usage and popular usage.--Nectarflowed ^T 21:52, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think Caucasian is used in the United States as a euphemism to refer to Whites and give them a more anthropological-sounding label. It is probably often used to refer to Americans who look white but don't "qualify" (so to speak) as being of European descent. Like so-called European Americans, Americans of west Asian and north African descent have only recently (if at all) thought of themselves as a single, coherent group requiring a handy label. It seems a disturbing trend in the United States that its people feel compelled to join (or restructure) one of its outdated and inadequately limited "racial" groupings. -Acjelen 20:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Mediterranean/Middle Eastern Ethnicity

From around eighth grade I have been interested in finding out the way our government groups people into racial categories on U.S. Census forms, State tests, and at the DMV, knowing that Hispanic is not a race and is already aforementioned on the forms. There seems to be many lacks of understanding on some and I am going to make it my sole duty to bring awareness to this politically sensitive matter. I support adding 'Mediterranean/Middle Eastern' as a separate category on the application form. The system is so screwed up that everyone from countries east of the Middle East is considered Asian despite the fact that people from India are Caucasians and not at all relative to people from China. It is stupid that our government views people of a darker complexion as non-Caucasian and we have all of these Nordic Nazi types claiming to be the Aryan race. I am sorry but Aryan people are nothing close to Hitler's description. Persians and people from the Indian subcontinent are the true Aryans, which doesn't even have a racial reference in their usage.

Our government just doesn't have a clue in the world how to identify people and therefore, we have people of an “unknown race” because of ignorance. I don't understand why Hispanic shouldn't refer to Portuguese culture instead of just pertaining to Spanish culture, especially when their cultures are more related to each other than our government gives them credit for. The definition is no doubt ignorant of that fact. After all, they both occupy the same peninsula, which was known as Hispania, and is known today as the Iberian Peninsula.

The Latins were the ancient ancestors of the Italians whom settled in the region of Italy known as Latium and is now Lazio. However, the Celt Iberians were the ancient ancestors of the Spanish and Portuguese and therefore, they are a Celt Iberian people, not a Latin people, despite their languages derive principally from their language. If a Latin was a native or resident of ancient Latium, then it's not a native or inhabitant of Latin America. A Latino is a Hispanic American whereas an Italian or someone of Italian descent residing in America is a Latin-American. However, people from Portugal and Brazil are not Hispanic American considering the definition for Hispanic.

I also have found out by curiosity that Ralph Nader is an Arab-American of Lebanese descent. Believe it or not Doug Flutie is also an Arab-American and they are white according to the government. This is why I prefer 'Mediterranean/Middle Eastern' added to the application. Latins, Greeks, Albanians, and Maltese (Mediterraneans) have a lot more in common with North Africans and Middle Easterners than Europeans in terms of culture, music, and history. In addition, Mediterraneans have generally the same complexion as Arabs because of where they live, and if I were full-blooded I would have more of an olive complexion, even though it is not always true. ~ Steven Colosi

As individuals and members of the global society, we must redefine our conclusion that we are different from another individual based on "ethnicity" which is defined by designated superficial characteristics such as skin color or eye shape. European-American, African-American Middle-Easterner, Asian, African are all terms from an extreme position on humans used to divide society into groups which deviates ATTENTION from the route of the issue--SURPRESSION. All terms regarding defined ethnicities, the European-American to the African-European to the Hispanic-Pacific Islander, are controlled in terms of superficial (topical) differences and with the use of those terms Contempt and fear is bred.

The definition for any of the terms is: group created by men which refers to the physical traits of an individual while taking into account their physical similarities and all places of birth with regards to other individuals in order to divide individuals of the global community

Expansion

This page needs to be expanded. European Americans are the most important racial group in the country, yet the "African-American" page is several times longer.--80.186.137.142 21:34, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, that`s an important point: I don't think that "European Americans" are a racial group (there are no human races in the biological sense, though people of african descent of course look different from other people with asian or european roots). It refers to Americans who originally came from the culturally-geographical defined region of Europe. Of course there are differences between the ethnicities of europe, who are devided by culture, languages etc., but there are also a lot of similarities. So I would say it is a term which includes all the different ethnical groups (or ancestry groups) like Irish-American, German-American etc. And the differences of these groups in America are slighter than the differences between the ethnicities in europe. (Sorry for my bad English).

Matthias

One reason the African American article is longer is because African Americans have existed as a group much longer than European Americans (the 17th century versus 1940s) Moreover, European Americans did not emerge until the general lessening of segregation in the United States along social, economic, and ethnic lines. In fact, that very flattening of American society made such a group as "European Americans" possible. But an unsegregated society makes it difficult for European Americans to create unique cultural, social, or political contributions. For example, more European Americans died in the Vietnam conflict, but they did so in an integrated military. European Americans are important in the history of popular music, especially rock-n-roll, but that would have hardly existed as it does today without the contributions of African Americans. The stereotypical hippy movement of the 1960s is European American. Generally one could consider the current field in Nashville-sound country music, Evangelical Christianity, and the rise of the contemporary Republican Party as contributions of the European Americans. White flight, of course, and suburban sprawl will be one of the lasting contributions of this group. -Acjelen 22:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you came upon a 1940s date for the start of the "existence" of European Americans, but I do not agree with that. Americans of different European ethnicities have been intermarrying from the start of colonization. Yes, there were more "pureblood" whites before the 20th century, but that had more to do with the fact that many of these people had recently passed through Ellis Island and had not had much of an opportunity to intermarry outside their ethnic group. In the South, where immigration rates were lower, whites had largely discarded their old ethnic labels well before the Civil War; they were less "Scottish," "English," "German" et al. and more "Southern." 24.192.17.34 07:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sense of adjective

It should be pointed out that the adjective in European American is used in the narrow biological sense. The U.S. Secretary of State, for example, wears European fashions, speaks a European language, and occasionally gives recitals of European music on a European instrument. In this broader sense, nearly everyone in the United States is a European American. -Acjelen 04:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Christina Aguilera

The article makes a point to distinguish between latin american and euro american, that while some people from both might be considered white in the census their ethnicities are different. So my question is, why does the article include Christina Aguilera as european-american when she is latin-american. Her father is from Ecuador. So, any comments? Cjrs 79 03:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The article does not make a point to distinguish between Latin Americans and Euro Americans. It just talks about Euro Americans. Latin American does not negate her being classified as a European American, because she was born in the USA and has origins in the original peoples of Europe.--Dark Tichondrias 01:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)