Talk:Dog/Archive 2

Archives
October 2005 – February 2006

Lifespan?

Great article, but the expected lifespan of a dog seems to have been omitted. Someone should scrounge up some information on that range.

Yes, that would be nice. I mean, I know the approximate figures, but I don't know the actual numbers, like average lifespan, max. lifespan and such. It would be great if someone would dig that numbers up and put them on page. Even grey wolf has lifespan clearly stated! --Arny 19:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Added summary & link to appropriate article. Thanks for the were named because they looked like X" being reinforced.

Origin...

At least according to Konrad Lorenz's "Man Meets Dog", the ancestor of most modern dog breeds is actually a jackal, not a wolf. 82.139.47.117 21:37, 27 May 2006 (UTC)suggestion. Elf | Talk 20:15, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That is not correct. Stop Me Now! 21:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought: When we talk about dog life expectancies, are we referring to the ages at which they naturally die, or at which they are euthanized? A huge amount of domestic dogs die in this way because the treatment they require is too expensive, because their quality of life is so poor or for various other reasons. Surely this fudges the statistics we have? With wild animals we can say how long they are likely to naturally live for, but with domestic animals this isn't quite the same. The question is, how much does this bias the figures (if at all)? --StoneColdCrazy 01:24, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting question. I've never seen that addressed in these discussions. However, I suspect that it wouldn't bias it by too much because at least in my experience dogs aren't usually euthanized because it's inconvenient to continue their care but because it's likely at best to extend their lives by only a short amount. Personal examples--my 17-year old husky who gradually got to the point of not being able to stand up on her own from a down, then not being able to stand even when lifted, to not being able to even roll up into a "down" when lying on her side... in the wild, she'd probably not have lasted more than 13 or 14 years (if anywhere near that) when the arthritis set in, and certainly not 17 years, and certainly if we hadn't put her to sleep then, it's not clear that she'd have lived more than a few days more. Also my 9-year old dog dying of cancer; when he started having violent convulsions and we put him to sleep, he'd have died 4 months earlier if we hadn't treated the tumor on his heart, and even so, if he hadn't been euthanized, it appeared that the tumor had spread to his brain and it's doubtful he'd have made it more than a couple more weeks at the outside. So, from my experience, medical care *increases* the lifespan quite a bit more than euthanasia *decreases* it. Which still might be a bias but not in the way I think you were thinking. :-) I would also guess, but have no proof, that when they're compiling life expectancies, they are NOT including things like the millions of pets put to sleep at animal shelters because there's no room for them. Elf | Talk 01:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I see exactly what you mean, Elf - you've hit the nail on the head when it comes to better expressing what I meant to say regarding to how we take care of our animals. I'm starting to wonder if we might have any natural statistics for the life expectancies for the domestic animals we keep. How long does a cow usually live for, a sheep, a hen? --StoneColdCrazy 03:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Of Kittens

Why does "kitten" have its own article while "puppy" leads to a disambiguation which then leads to dog? This is an outrage. :P The_Irrelevant_One 06:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Irrelevant One, I think this article could be made better by putting in only a little about the lifestaged where a dog is considered to be "puppy" and linking to an article that has in depth information about puppies, including development, needs etc. This article would be made a little more compact. Stop Me Now! 16:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Killing Dogs in the UK

This article says that killing dogs, even if they are on your private land, is illegal in the UK. Although I don't have the relevant statutory provision to hand, that is factually incorrect - it is perfectly legal to kill a dog if it is worrying livestock. I am also unaware of any statutory prohibition on killing dogs, save those laws that prohibit cruelty to animals in general. Accordingly, unless someone feels different I propose removing this line.

There is no such law.--CosmoKramer 13:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Break off a dog origins article

(moved initial Q from User talk:Elf:) Opinion request: I notice the dog article has a section on the ancestory of the dog as a wolf. Do you feel it might be time to create a separate article Origins of the dog or of similiar title? Cordially SirIsaacBrock 17:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

It's possible, as this article is certainly a long one. We'd have to come up with a good summary to leave included here. I don't know how much more info could really be stated, though, since the domestication of the dog occurred in prehistory and even the genetic data is indefinite so far--all of which it already says here. So it might be a very short article. I could go either way. Elf | Talk 20:57, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I would suggest leaving the dog article section alone, to avoid edit wars. I was in the process of cleaning up History of dog fighting breeds and noticed there is no "Dog Origin" article to link to, so I starting writing my own. I think we need a separate article so people can discuss this topic. My 2 cents. Cordially SirIsaacBrock 21:02, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a good idea. The article could talk about the domestication of wolves and how they have changed in appearance and temperment. It would be good to compare dogs their ancestors and show how they have changed. Stop Me Now! 16:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: figures to be used

We have good, genuine figures illustrating anatomy of dogs on the Slovak Wikipedia. I have also converted 2 of them so far into .svg format for easier translation. You could use them, if you are able to label it in English. Images are included in the article sk:Pes_domáci and the converted ones are Image:Nos psa.svg and Image:Typ ucha u psa.svg. If you use them, upload them on Commons and add links to other versions of the same image. ~~helix84 13:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Bad link needing to be fixed!

"Dangerous substances Some foods commonly enjoyed by humans are dangerous to dogs, including chocolate (Theobromine poisoning), onions, grapes and raisins, some types of gum, turkey" Under that section "turkey" leads to the country of turkey, rather than the food. Can someone fix that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.118.200.30 (talk • contribs) 14:57, March 24, 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed the turkey and gum links. I presume that "gum" refers to chewing gum, but it really isn't very clear. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 04:11, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Dog Breed Info Box

Each box has an image. I think we should consider adding one video to each box as they are available now at google [1]. A picture says a thousand words but a video says more :)

Cordially SirIsaacBrock 22:51, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Picture Captions

"Some Dogs, like this Weimaraner, are predators suited to chasing after, leaping at, and killing prey."

Oh come on!! First of all, the Weimaraner (or any other breed of domesticated canine) is not a predator - yes it could theoretically kill an animal if it had to, but it would have to be pretty desparate to try it. Therefore, it is not suited to "chasing after, leaping at and killing prey". Weimaraners are retrievers, bred to sit patiently while the human brought the animal down, and then to go and retrieve it where it fell. They were almost never used to kill the animals themselves, unlike certain sighthounds and terriers that were. Secondly, as I've pointed out, most dogs were bred to help with the hunting (if they are hunting breeds) but not to actually kill the animals themselves. Granted, Salukis did hunt gazelle in the Middle Age years ago, and Terriers can catch and kill rodents on thier own, but this caption makes it sound like the dogs are out there like tigers, feeding themselves by pouncing on pheasents! Can someone please fix either the caption or the picture?--The Wizard of Magicland 17:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, just to nitpick the English, why is "dog" capatilised? — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Wizard of Magicland (talk • contribs)

Grammatically, it should not be. However, some editors believe that every occurrance of an article's subject, and sometimes any species name, must be capitalized, which I have not found supported in the manual of style. Attempts to conform the style grammatically tend to be reversed, so it's a waste of time to try it. Coyoty 20:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Diet

The diet section states that, "Some sources suggest that a dog fed on a strict vegetarian diet may develop dilated cardiomyopathy since it lacks L-carnitine.[3]"

However, when you look at the wiki page for carnitine, the natural sources of this substance are listed as:

"The best source of natural carnitine is in red meat and dairy products. Other natural sources of Carnitine include nuts and seeds (e.g pumpkin, sunflower, sesame), legumes or pulses (beans, peas, lentils, peanuts), vegetables (artichokes, asparagus, beet greens, broccoli, brussels sprouts, collard greens, garlic, mustard greens, okra, parsley), fruits (apricots, bananas), cereals (buckwheat, corn, millet, oatmeal, rice bran, rye, whole wheat, wheat bran, wheat germ) and other 'health' foods (bee pollen, brewer's yeast, carob, kale)."

If this is correct, I don't see how a strict vegetarian diet (should this be changed to vegan, to be more specific and to reference further wikipedia reading?) would lack carnitine. The paragraph seems to be expressing only one viewpoint at the cost of the other and the words "some sources" and "may" are very vague, though I'm glad the statement is referenced.

I'd suggest modifying the paragraph to something more balanced such as this:

"Some sources suggest that a dog fed on a strict vegetarian diet may develop dilated cardiomyopathy since it lacks L-carnitine, [3] however, maintaining a balanced diet is also a factor since L-carnitine is found naturally in many nuts, seeds, beans, vegetables, fruits and whole grains."

All references to L-carnitine should be linked to the carnitine wikipedia entry for further reading. Limes 05:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I linked all references to L-carnitine to the appropriate page and noticed that "strict vegetarian" redirects to veganism anyway so I left it as is and linked it as well. Modified text as above. Limes 18:16, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Diet - Dangerous Substances

It may be worth finding out and listing what makes each of the listed items dangerous to dogs. Chocolate I know about -- it contains "theobromine", a compound similar to caffeine which zaps the central nervous system and the heart. OTH, all the discussion I could find about turkey revolves around the "indigestible" skin and large amounts of fat. I should say that many of these sites recommend _cooking_ bones for the mutt, a practice my vet sternly and vehemently warned us against! Gordon|Talk, 24 April 2006 @13:05 UTC

I don't know what you mean by "_cooking_", but my vet claims that bones are fine for dogs as long as they are raw, since it is the cooked ones that snap easily and can do damage. He picks up raw bones with shards of meat on them from a local butchers and gives them to his dogs regularly (so perhaps they are cooking bones in that they might be used in soup or so on). However, if you meant that you should prepare and cook special bones for your dog, yes, this is definatly a bad idea! I wouldn't classify turkey as a dangerous substance just on the measure that it is fatty - that just makes it unhealthy but not harmful per se. You're right about the theobromine though, and I do agree that we should expand this section to include further details.--The Wizard of Magicland 16:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The other issue with bones is the RAW diet. I know alot of people who give chicken and turkey wingtips 'raw' to their dogs. However, would you like to be kissed or licked by a dog after they ate that. That's my only concern. Also I wouldn't appreciate a dog kissing a child after eating that. RAW diets (and BARF?) do include raw meats. If your concerned with bones you get at the pet store they are usually sterilized then treated with flavour but from I know they are not 'cooked'. Might be some help. LdyDragonfly 20:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right about the kissing bit! They pong a bit, don't they? Still, it only lasts an hour or so :) Gordon | Talk, 5 June 2006 @12:24 UTC

Missing Image

I can't edit the page, but there's a broken image on it right now. Kushboy 17:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

fixed. Lee S. Svoboda tɑk 17:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Terminology

Yes, the correct term for a female dog (and most female canids) is bitch, but the terminology section has the etymology reversed, and colloquial usage of the word bitch has no place in an article such as this. Baleeted. -- horsedreamer 07:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Where is the list that says how many breeds are known to live on the world????????????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pig,guinea (talk • contribs)

  Search for "List of Dog Breeds"

Improvement to 'Wolf Ancestors'

From the article

Although all wolves belong to the species Canis lupus, there are (or were) many subspecies that had developed a distinctive appearance, social structure, and other traits. For example, the Japanese Wolf and the Eastern Timber Wolf possess different distinctive colouration, hunting and social structures.
It would be better to subsitute Indian Wolf for Japanese Wolf in the above sentance. The Japanese Wolf could refer to one of two distinct sub-species , both of which are extinct, making the certainty of their categorisation as a sub-species of Wolf disputable. GameKeeper 09:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Unneccisary, Unsubstantiated or Incorrect info.

1. "The constellations Canes Venatici, Canis Major and Canis Minor are so named for their perceived resemblance to dogs."

-Ok, IMO these are the kind of things that need to be tightened up. First, its irrelevant, but worse its wrong. I guess Canis Major looks like a dog - as much as a cow or a horse or a... Canis Minor is composed of 2 commonly discerable stars and 7 others that are near the limits of human vision assuming no light pollution. I guess its a wiener dog, sorry dachshund. Canes Venatici is only 2 stars, dim and very dim. If any similar referances are retained I would propose tying Canis Major and Minor to the whole mans best freind thing, because they are orion's hunting dog's and I presume were named to give him these treasured (apparently since ancient times) companions; not because they looked like dogs. Especially in the case of C. Minor... I just don't like to see popular assumptions, ie -"constellations

That idea may just have been tenable in 1954, but it isn't now. Ben-w 07:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

External Link

- * http://www.animals-pictures-dictionary.com/cat/25-Dogs-Domestic-Breeds Dogs - Domestic Breeds Pictures Why does the POV user removed this link? it was one of the "General Info" Links, and I realy think that it is interesting for the surfers, don't you people?

That link is in violation of the External Links policies, and seems to be designed to get more eyeballs at the ads on the page - Trysha ^(talk) 05:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't find any violation of the External Links. And about the ads, I have never seen a website that put ads in such a "no greedy" way.

Genetic fossil evidence

Edited quote from the article:

Dogs were first domesticated [...] perhaps as early as 100,000 years ago based upon recent genetic fossil and DNA evidence.

1. What does "genetic fossil and DNA" mean? I don't understand "genetic fossil."

2. I tried looking for fossil evidence in the referenced links, but couldn't find any. One of the references mentions dog could have evolved "as much as 135,000 years ago," but that was through genetic studies, not palaeontology.

So is there a good reference on fossil canines? I thought I saw something about dog fossils lately, but I can't seem to find it again. --Kjoonlee 11:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Mimics?

This is a stupid thing to say:

"The loyalty and devotion that dogs demonstrate as part of their natural instincts as pack animals closely mimics the human idea of love and friendship, leading many dog owners to view their pets as full-fledged family members"

Can you define the difference between "loyalty and devotion" and "love and friendship"? And anyway, in what way does the instinctual behavior of dogs mimic that of humans? Didn't dogs behave in this way long before they were domesticated?

I would put it another way:

"Dogs show loyalty and devotion due to their natural instinct as pack animals. This behavior is close to the human idea of love and friendship, leading many dog owners to accept their pets into their families as full-fledged family members."

Dogs are cool, luv em.--John Lake 17:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC)