Talk:Born again

"text and context was meant to apply to Nicodemus particularly"

If the content is in the source, there's no reason to remove it, even if it doesn't make sense to one editor. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:29, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

'Famous conversions'

Asserting that famous individuals are notable as born-again Christians or for conversion to born-again Christianity may be a violation of Wikipedia's rules about biographies of living people. Any of the entries that cannot be properly sourced—specifically, sources showing that the person's conversion is both a) true and b) relevant to their notability—can (and should) be removed.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jeffro77: I can see claiming a subject as a "born again" Christian without a reference could be a violation of BLP, but I cannot see that it must be relevant to their notability. The entire concept of WP:GNG applies to both articles and lists. WP:LINKFARMs are discouraged, but unless you can supply a policy or guideline to support b, I would state it's you're personal option. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

And that would be your opinion. The fact remains that there is a list of names asserted as members of a faith with no sourcing whatsoever, and it's not appropriate. I clearly wasn't referring to notability in the context of the subject of an article, as it's just a list of names in a paragraph (distinctly different from a 'list article'); reliable sources are required for asserting that individuals are members of particular religious groups, and those sources should indicate such membership as somehow relevant rather an irrelevant passing mention.--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:00, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree the sources are needed. The fact is you do not have a policy or guideline to support your "b" point, so I will not allow you to continue to gut the article at your whim. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:03, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

You seem confused because I didn't use "notability" in a Wikipedia buzzword context. What I meant is that it is not sufficient to use, for example, some tabloid magazine that briefly states 'xyz is a born again' as a 'source' to support the assertion in the article that the listed people have 'influenced modern culture' (hence, their membership being relevant to their notability). The assertion in the article requires more than just that the status of membership is true because a 'famous person being a member' does not automatically 'influence modern culture'. I'm not particularly interested in what you imagine you will 'allow', and it is not at all clear why you are trying to equate unsourced claims about celebrities in one paragraph with 'continuing to gut the article'. Since you claim I would be 'continuing' to gut the article, you should also justify your accusation with evidence of what has supposedly already been inappropriately removed or retract the false accusation.--Jeffro77 (talk) 06:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not confused. I understand that I'm pointing to GNG which is a notability guideline. No false accusations: you need a policy or guideline for removing items from a list just because you don't want them there. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:51, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

If you're not confused, then you're just wrong. It is not appropriate to claim that specific famous people being members of a particular religious group has influenced modern culture without a suitable source. A source that simply says 'xyz is a member' does not support the claim that their conversion/membership has influenced modern culture. Unsourced entries can be removed without notice; I will liberally allow a month, to allow proper sourcing before unsourced items are removed, but other editors may remove any unsourced entries at any time. More broadly, you do still seem confused about the application of the GNG as it applies to 'lists', which actually refers list articles, not merely any list of comma-separated names in a sentence in a paragraph of a standard article. You have repeatedly claimed that I don't have a policy on which to base the fact that sources are required to support the claim that famous people becoming 'born again' has influenced modern society; though it should be obvious to any experienced editor, the relevant policy is obviously verifiability, particularly as it relates to reliable sources.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:03, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

As you have made no attempt to justify your false accusation, I have struck it out.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:45, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

And I have restored it. Don't ever change my comments.

As you have not proven that it's required, you're wrong. Yes, references are needed. Nothing else. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Clearly you feel the need to be obtuse. I'll let it slide for now, since you obviously have no concept of yourself being wrong or taking responsibility for your errors. However, if you ever make another false accusation about me, it will be reported to admins. The fact remains that the claim that famous 'conversions' have 'influenced modern culture' remains unsourced, and unsourced material can be removed at any time.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:37, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

In any case, another editor has removed the trivial list of names for most of which there were no sources, and for all of whom there were no sources indicating any 'influence on modern culture'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:06, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't read what you wrote the first few times, so I was clearly obtuse. Your primary object was not the list itself but the phrase "influenced modern society". It's a fluff phrase and I don't even like it. I understood it as evangelical culture, but I can see how it would be read as culture in general. I don't like link farms, but I do see how evangelicals like to hold up celebrities as some sort of trophy or proof that this form of belief is valid.

I'm OK with the list leaving, but I'm not OK with the claim that their faith must be "relevant to their notability" as that's not what the list claims to represent. Think of it as a list of notable individuals born or from a specific location. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:03, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, it seems you simply misunderstood (repeatedly, which is somewhat disappointing). The list, with the claim that their membership or conversion has influenced modern society is specifically why their membership/conversion would need to be supported by a suitable source that is relevant to the claim that they have had such influence. If the sentence were modified such that it doesn't make any claim of 'influence' but simply reports a 'list of members', then it would not require sourcing for the additional claim. In any case, sources are still required regarding membership/conversion for each person in such a list.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2017 (UTC)