Talk:Japanophilia

Seagaliana

by a consensus of wikipedians, it was determined that this useful category be eliminated. however, i maintain this valuable resource on my user page --Ghetteaux 13:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Wapanese

It was my understanding that the word Wapanese is not derived from white and Japanese at all, but was meant as short for "wannabe Japanese." Surely, there are many people who could be considered "wapanese" who are not Caucasian.

Can you find any supporting references for this? If so, we can add that as a possible origin for the word. --nihon 17:07, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

That's how I always saw it as. That's the only way I've known the word, and while I don't know exactly the origin of the word, it's the only way I've heard it used. --mirth 17:47:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

If you can find 2-3 references online indicating that, then we can add that as a possible origin. --nihon 02:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Rewrite

I rewrote the article a bit, aiming to make it more objective. Comments? Questions? Criticism? Concerns? Suggestions? --nihon 19:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Merge

Someone on the Asian fetish page suggested merging similar articles:

"couldn't this page be merged with Japanophile and/or Asian fetish ? I think it returns to few hits on google to be worthwhile :-P Flammifer 02:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)"

I think he is right. All three articles, Asian fetish, Asiaphilia, and Japanophile, are poorly written, very POV and poorly sourced. I think a merge under the Asian fetish page would lead to a better article which can prevent all points of view and also list various terms. 50 pages of stub-like quality vs. one comprehensive article. Japanohpile and Asiaphile are slang terms anyway. For an encyclopedia, a more neutral term is preferable, thus "asian fetish"

Feedback please! Willowx 07:13, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

==

Let me give this a try. There are three Wikipedia entries to examine: Asiaphilia, Japanophile, and Asian fetish, plus Asiaphile (redirect page); and decide which to delete, leave alone, or merge. Can we agree that there are two fundamental differences here? On one side there is the socio-cultural issue of a non-Asian person with an interest in aspects of Asian culture such as music, food, people, movies. To my way of thinking this pertains to both the Asiaphilia and Japanophile articles. Now there is also sexuality side of it, Asian fetish. One does not necessitate the other. Regardless of one’s own personal beliefs, the fact does exist that there are individuals who these terms do apply to. Looking at the history of the pages it seems obvious that these subjects incite some strong feelings by some users here. My conclusions are below, and I welcome any more eloquent member to amplify with their own thoughts.

• Keep Asiaphilia
• Merge Japanophile into Asiaphilia
• Keep Asian fetish
• Change Asiaphile (redirect page) to point to Asiaphilia
• Use the Template:Cleanup-verify {{{cleanup-verify}}}
• Remove the Template:Disputed {{{disputed}}} and the Template:POV {{{NPOV}}}
• Recommend also look at Otaku and Orientalism

Your ideas? --Tony Hecht 19:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The problem I see is that there are two aspects: 1) a positive view, a la Francophile, ie. a fan of a culture and 2) a negative view, of some kind of exploitation/fetish. On top of these ambiguity, we have mulitple slang that convey the same idea: Wapanese, Japanophile, Sinophile, Koreanophile, Asiaphile, Asian fetish etc. I think it is silly to have a separate page for every single slang variation, and plus the quality is very low. I'd rather we condense this topic into one or two articles that presents all sides objectively, with sources, and maybe lists various slang variations. In essence, one article presenting both negative and positive views. Does this make sense? The question I have is, if we merge, is Asian fetish a better central term (or is it too exclusively sexual) or is Asiaphilia a better term (although a bit POV slangy). Is there any better word????????? "Asian dating controversy", "Asian White controvery" or something more encyclopedic?? Willowx 09:32, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

==

Okay, speaking as someone who was described 100% in the Japanophile article, here's my input: When refering to the sexual side of things, I think it is probably safe to throw everything under "asian fetish" (after all, the average white guy probably can't tell which country the naked asian porns stars he stares at really come from). Then a separate, well-written article for the culture side. The Japanophile could be thrown in with Otaku section since both terms have the same roots (a heavy interest in Japanese culture). BTW After reading the Wapanese/Japanophile I felt slapped. I think an encyclopedia should be more objective. Mostly we're just people who watch too much anime, but the article makes it sound like a bloody psycologic disorder!

BTW for interest sake, I come from South Africa, so Japanophiles exist as far out as here;-p

User Name: FinalAngel

I agree that there should be separate articles for the sexual side (Asian festish) and the cultural interest side (Japanophile, Asiaphile, or whatever). There are many people who have an interest in Japan without it being a sexual interest. --nihon 19:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the Wapanese article should be merged into and become a subsection of this article. It seems to me the someone who would be considered Wapanese would be an extreme version of a Japanophile.

I also think that Japanophile should be kept separate from Asiaphile.

Since we're going with the English definitions of the word, I think Otaku may be a good candidate for a subsection of Japanophile, as well, rather than a separate page (for the same reasons I'm suggesting for "Wapanese").

--nihon 17:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The Wapanese page has been merged into this one now. --nihon 20:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is full of undocumented assertions that seem basically made up. I think it needs some academic sources to back up these assertions, otherwise people can claim the stereotype means anything they like. Otherwise it should be put up for VfD.

==

"However, those that can just barely write their name in katakana are pretentious hypocrites, and should be ignored."

Should wikipedia really give advice like this?

I don't think so.

==

Is this the only problem with this article's "point of view"? If it is, then the NPOV notice is totally unnecessary, cause that line isn't there anymore. Count Zero 06:22, 2005 Mar 3 (UTC)

Not very objective, but great article here!

== I don't think we should lump lolicons with wapanese.

And then there are the Japanophiles who go on to become gaijin. What a world, what a world. Jeshii 01:06, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

==

1. a fetish towards underage girls; many different mangas feature underage girls as sexualised idols, which gives the impression that Japanophiles are pedophiles as well, worsening the stigma around them

those poor tokyo freaks. How will we ever get the world to love them?

== Deleted the following line due to its absurdity.Atheistrabbi 17:02, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Also, a Japanohpile is someone who has sexual relations with the Japanese alphabet. Also known to develop feelings for certain letters.

Pejorative?!

Is this term really pejorative? Checking some of the entires in "what links here", I find only one other mention on Wikipedia of it being derogatory, which is in the Otaku article, whereas it is used simply to mean "one friendly towards or interested in Japan" in the articles on, for example, Franco-Japanese relations and Henry Watkin. I used it myself in the Kanon article simply to mean "fans of Japanese popular culture". I have never encountered a pejorative use myself. I have edited the beginning of the article to remove the claim I believe to be incorrect, namely that the word is usually pejorative; I can find no support for this. It is my opinion that most of the rest of the article is a redundant duplication of information already present under otaku, but I shan't delete it outright without giving people a chance to explain to me why I'm wrong.  ;) -- Haeleth July 2, 2005 16:47 (UTC)

Why is this term pejorative while Francophile and Anglophile are not? Is there something shameful about being interested in Asian cultures? This seems like a problem with systemic bias. –Shoaler (talk) 11:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

couldn't agree more. frankly, i was shocked when i first came across the word japanophile, used pejoratively, meaning "one who is obsessed with things japanese beyond healthy measures". this is because i always considered myself a japanophile, in the conservative meaning of the word - i studied japanese at uni, i have been there, travelled a bit, enjoy reading a japanese book from now to then and seeing the occasional japanese film. also, i have little to no interest in anime or manga - i percieve those as an interesting facet of the culture i study, but don't obsess with them. to me, the way the article is written now seems rather POV - the way i see it, the "obsessive maniac" part of the meaning of the word is a fairly late corruption of the word's original meaning, used in a fairly small percentage of it's use (mainly younger american populace, the way i understood it). while i'm no prude about language and know that language evolves and some things, seen today as "inacurate" or "corrupt" uses of a word might be canonical dictionary definitions of the same word by tomorrow, i still think that this article stresses way too much on this minor meaning of the word. i suggest the article should be toned down a bit on the "obsessive maniac" meaning of the word and stress the wider used and more correct meaning of the word as counterpart to "francophile" or "anglophile". for starters, a list of famous japanophiles (politicians, writesr and such) could be added. english is not just the language of young americans, it is today the accepted lingua franca of the world. and yes, i am not american, nor is english my mother tongue. 213.172.254.36 16:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

A Japanophile such as Lafcadio Hearn is not referred to as a Japanophile perjoratively. Perhaps there are people who use the word perjoratively, but they are the same who would use Francophile or Anglophile the same way. The word is not perjorative in normal usage and I am editing the paragraph accordingly. As to the wapanese phenomenon shown (and the reaction to it), well, it does exist and should be noted. 198.60.159.10 20:30, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is because francophiles or anglophiles tend to have their interests focused on the higher aspects of those respective cultures, whereas "Japanophiles" [though I've tended to use "Nipponophile" instead] almost without exception implies an interest in the *trashier* components of Japanese culture. That and the fact that much of Japanese culture is considered [and rightly in my opinion] decadent to Europeans, what with the underage eroticism, tentacle rape, cartoon sex and all that... it all adds up to a imply a negativity about the term. - Walshicus

Asiaphilia

Any thoughts on merging Asiaphilia into this article ?

Also, shouldn't the term "wapanese" also appear somewhere in this article ? Flammifer 02:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Japanese vs. Asia

Yikes... these is so much wrong with this whole topic... but since I don't fall under any of them, I barely care... however: DO NOT MERGE Japanphilia with Asiaphilia... why? Because Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans language, looks, and culture are all different... also, Asian includes India and the Philipines... both of which are VERY VERY different from "oriental" asia. Basically, not everyone who has a Japanese fetish also has a fetish for Chinese and Korean... JUST Japanese. The two should remain seperate. Natsuki 23:08, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

You have a point. If I typed in "japanophile" and ended up on a page called "Asian fetish" I would be quite surprised. --Apoc2400 00:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with not merging Japanophile and Asiaphile. While one may be a subset of the other, those interested in Japan are not necessarily interested in any other Asian country. --nihon 19:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Do not merge Otaku with Japanophile

Otaku can refer to someone who lives in Japan and is an obsessee of some subculture (like a furry). If anything, the article about this definition at least must be preserved. There are articles titled Otaku in roughly a dozen languages; check out the size of the Japanese article, there's a lot to be translated there! Actually, I move to get rid of the {{mergeinto}} template now. Ashibaka (tock) 05:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

After thinking about it a bit more, I think the Otaku article is large enough and different enough to stand on its own. Removed the {{mergeinto}} template. --nihon 06:28, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Wapanese Talk (merged from former Wapanese article)

"and occasionally written as wotaku"

Is this true? In Japanese, wotaku is just an alternative, 2ch-style spelling for otaku. User:130.233.22.111 (Talk) 23:51, October 28, 2005 (UTC)

I believe this was a misunderstanding. Ashibaka (tock) 05:51, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I would say that it is written as wotaku to distinguish from a Western Japanese anime lover User:yukikanou (Talk) 23:00, Febuary 22, 2006 (UTC)

The only time I see ヲタクis if it's some snobby otaku magazine or website in Japan, or if it's a really old reference to the word. Currently, オタクor おたくare the "spellings" used 99% of the time. --日本穣 05:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Merging with Japanophile

It has been proposed this article be merged into Japanophile as "Wapanese" is seen as a sub-categorization of it. Thoughts? --nihon 06:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

weeaboo

i always thought weeaboo meant a person who enjoys spanking

Correct me if I am wrong, but the story behind the weeaboo/wapanese link comes from 4chan.org's /b/ image board. A few months ago, the word "wapanese" was filtered to "weeaboo" (a reference to Perry Bible Fellowship) and "wap" was filtered to "wee". The filter was so popular that weeaboo became synonymous with wapanese at 4chan and elsewhere.

---McSnuffy

weeaboo is 4chan term.Its not real word. If that wordfilter wasnt there the article will have it removed (or referenced as alternative)?

Does 4chan 

have such wide cultural impact in America? Do people get insulted weeaboo on the street(hypothetically:Does this term replace it.)? Mcsnuffy could you elaborate on "elsewhere"?

Weeaboo originates from the Perry Bible Fellowship comic and didn't really have much of a meaning. Since /b/ wordfiltered 'wapanese' to 'weeaboo' on 4chan it became synomous with Japanophile on there since. Some don't even know what's the real use for it there anymore.

How about Chapanese (description for Japanese impersonating Chinese people)

I just want to ask how about Chapanese, if not, what is the definition for Chinese people who likes to impersonate the Japanese and their lifestyle, just like Wapanese as it is very common in Asian countries like Hong Kong

This is very similar by definition.Wapanese are not exclusively White americans. Its like people who are emulating Japanese Culture,regardless of ethnicity. quote http://bash.org/?295020 may describe such behavior(albeit one-time event)? Its a international subculture.

Wopanese

Neither well known or not commonly in use? Perhaps not in your neck of the woods. Where I am from, Wapanese is hardly a well known term - even less well known, perhaps, than Wopanese. Now, I accept your right to edit your page and to keep the content limited to what you feel is related and appropriate, and I will create a separate page for the term, but I must disagree with the reasoning.

FYI - the origins of Wapanese do, indeed, come from the same roots that gave us Wigger. My feeling, however, is that is only likely to find any use in such places where there is somewhat of a noticeable Japanese population. Wigger is very common in America at least in part due to the entirety of pop culture... and you don't exactly see a lot of J-Pop on MTV.

Just my two cents. Have a nice weekend.

Jacques Chirac's Inclusion

Can anyone explain why Jacques Chirac is mentioned as a Japanophile in this article?--Halloween jack 03:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to know as well. I don't know much about him, but it doesn't seem like he'd be one.

The Jacques Chirac article makes no mention of it, and I think this should follow the wishes of the editors over there. I believe there was a mention of Jacques in Da Vinci Code, which might be where the previous editor got his idea from.  freshgavinΓΛĿЌ  05:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

what a progress

I remember this was a redirect to japanophile.I still think this needs to be expanded.This term is used not only in american forums.Its worldwide.

here is my definition: Wapanese is racial slur by proponents of mainstream American/Local Country/Popular culture to single out anime fans and people deeply interested in Japan. Adoption of Japanese Culture is myth,these people don't live in Japan and Don't usually socialize with japanese.They are fascinated with certain aspects,most of them which are Unique or different in Japanese Culture(there are thousands f things for example that separate mainstream American Culture values and English

culture,but this is far greater rift.).They emulate these aspects.

Calling themself anime names or taking identity of anime/manga characters is not "becoming japanese".By this logic Tolkien fans are "becoming Elf".

People who really want to "Become Japanese" just emigrate to japan(which isn't actully changing them,they just seek to be assimilated in Japanese Culture which wapanese already do). Cultural Superiority? Each culture is unique,people who are dissatisfied with mainstream culture adopt a foreign culture,or form a new subculture(which is only a case when the people develop something unique e.g. art,social cirles,etc). anime subculture is however different then Wapanese. Some who seek to emulate aspects of Japanese culture even ignore anime and concentrate on such things as ikebana (flower arragement) ,kendo (sword fighting) or martial arts (karate,aikido,etc) or just Japanese cuisine(What makes this insulting you don't get called Francophile/French fag for eating a french baget or Chink/Sinophile if you order Chinese food. Pocky is different? )

Picture and latest edits

I have attempted to repair some of the damage done by a handful of strong unsourced fact dependant edits that reek of OR and the image has now been reverted twice, with no reasoning given on how to keep it. Please discuss why you feel the image should be included here before attempting to revert again. Thanks.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, why was the image removed to begin with?--Raguleader 21:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a picture of a well known expert on Japanese culture and he's "popular" among the internet community with regards to Japanese popular/mainstream culture. The name escapes me as of now. What does everyone else think? Ttchiem 22:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have just recently discussed with Ttchiem (an acquaintance of mine and the original poster) about this picture . As far as I can tell, the picture fits appropriately and is adequately labeled for this topic. Relevenance to the topic includes

• 1) A non-Japanese person interested in Japan
• 2) Obvious signs of interest in Japanese history (flags)
• 3) Obvious signs of Japanese sports (kendo)

These are direct properties listed in the description of the listing for "Japanophile" and the picture in no way hurts this topic. For this reason I have reinstated the picture. The person in this picture is widespread on numerous locations on the web as well as conventions to be the 'The Japanophile.'--BrookieDragon 22:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The picture was removed (check the edit summaries) because in all honesty it appears to be a simple vanity shot Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines. The whole problem here is not that it was removed, but that it was re-reverted twice with no logic presented. If you think it deserves to be here, please argue your case instead of simply reverting.

The sentence you just used It's a picture of a well known expert on Japanese culture and he's "popular" among the internet community [...] The name escapes me as of now gives me no reason not to think that it's just a bogus statement fabricated for the very purpose of this argument. Which forces me to ignore your comments entirely. BrookieDragon has taken the effort to actually write up some sensible reasonings. Since the three points he gives are correct, if you can prove that the image is not just a "vanity image" e.g. he's not just some random Wikipedia editor holding a kendo stick, then the image can rightfully stay.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  03:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears the original inserter just was a little short on proper methods to deal with these things. Well known expert on Japanese culture seems to be pushing it, but if I recall correctly, this guy is a regular at many local and other southern conventions I've been too (in the past at least). He had a booth representing his site I believe at a few. From what I recall, what made him notable was a blog I read a few years back called "Keep your Socks Clean." I don't know if its still in effect but he was easily seen as, and tried to portray himself as, a stereotypical Japahophile (at least what appears to be so in Wiki definition)... and in other cases an otaku, though this picture clearly fits his belonging as Japanophile. This was the source of alot of his writings and the reason he was read. --BrookieDragon 20:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, please read the vanity guidelines and What Wikipedia is not and also have a look at the articles in notability criteria category carefully. The person in question, with all due respects, is not a "well-known expert on Japanese culture" and I don't see what valid excuse can disqualify this picture from being vain and non-notable. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a photo album, with all due respects. - Ganryuu 21:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course not, but I reapplied the picture from the original inserter because it fits the catagory properly. It is only helpful to the this word listing, and follows closely what the wiki definition is. Saying he is an expertert in Japanese culture is pretty bogus, but then again, a Japanophile never really is classified as an expert. It says within the definition itself as a misguided interest sometimes. "Japanophile" is not something that one person can represent, but this picture and what this person has done makes this picture adequate. --BrookieDragon 22:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I remember Keep Your Socks Clean.I loved it. I'll support his picture here so that the vain argument of the original poster doesn't hold water. The picture fits the word perfectly. --Getlow 16:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be helpful to know who this actually is and what he actually did (I feel the description above is rather vague). BookieDragon's explanation was argumented, but I am concerned as a picture of the same person was posted with a different description, see [1], although a discussion above resulted in not merging otaku with japanophile... Tensaibuta 02:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've now added an image of Lafcadio Hearn, a notable author well-known for his works on Japan, which is befitting of this article, instead of the earlier, non-notable, non-verifiable image. Lafcadio Hearn's strong interest in Japanese culture and his scholarly works are much more verifiable, documented and notable and better befitting of an encyclopedic entry. - Ganryuu 14:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

--Ulver99 19:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Reinstated a picture removal. Though the addition of Lafcadio is notable, it was far from purposes of benefit of the article, but more to suite your harassment of the "Japanophile" picture. You seem to be trying to crash this picture as well as the one simular on another article for your own personal goals, not the benefit of Wiki. Lafcadio does suit this article, but I have reinstated the previous picture also as it touches on the fanatic/popular culture side of Japanophile which is so common today and what most people recognize the word as. Several people seem to have said they where familiar with this person so your arguement that it was a vain picture that you've been using to crash these pictures has been proven wrong time and time again. Just because you are not aware of the source does not mean no one is. Now, your picture is up, and the other picture is up. They both help this article and go well with the definition, lets get along now?

It's a little bit hypocritical to revert someones actions and then insist everyone get along at the same time. But anyway... the point you're missing here that Ganryuu is trying to get across is that you are confusing the core meaning of Japanophile with otaku. Japanophile is a historical word with strong links to experts on aspects of Japanese culture. Someone with an obsessive interest in modern Japanese imagery (despite the fact that kendo is a traditional sport, the idea of it as a cool fashion is a modern idea) should not be considered a Japanophile because they lack the intellectual affection to the country, which is implied by the word.

Of course, the meaning of both words (Japanophile and otaku) has become increasingly blurred because of misuse and the fact that nobody really cares that they are different, but that's no excuse to essentially officialize the merging of the two words, when they still have unique messages to contribute to an encyclopedia.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the picture again, it looks like some random guy dressed for Halloween than a serious example of a Japonophile. --62.245.143.34 09:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Repaired picture. I think his purpose of "getting along" was that adding both pictures for all aspects of the word was better then just one. I think he was going for compromise instead of 'my way and my way alone.' Japanophile deals with numerous aspects beyond that of Otaku. The differences are subtle but very different. Though Japanophile may have links to "experts of Japanese culture" (Ex. professors and the picture of the author), it is impossible to denounce the common day use of Japanophile in common culture. This use being something with a huge interest (addiction?) in something Japanese. I would bet my life to say that most use of the word in present days is that of the popular culture of someone obsessing rather then someone studying about Japan.

If its causing this much of a problem between the historical aspects of the word and the common present day uses, maybe we should more clearly define two sections within the entry, seperating the old and the new? I agree that the older and more original use of the word is important, but we can't ignore the common day uses that most people know the word as.--Getlow 16:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Otaku pic has to go

Okay, that picture has got to go. It is not a picture of a Japanophile, but of an overly-obsessed fan (a.k.a. otaku) of kendo and the Imperial Japanese Navy. There is a difference, as Freshgavin pointed out above. That picture has no place in this article. Period. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This picture has nothing to do with otaku. Otaku deals with, anime and manga obsessions in the foreign sense as well as a lonely, secluded,geeky individual with "dark" habits (and often hygeine) in a Japanese sense.

This picture suits nothing for that so calling it otaku is crossing the line between that word and Japanophile. Further more, the description of the word "Japanophile" directly says a person with a limited perception of Japan, often a foreigner. It further went to describe fans of Japanese sports such as Kendo, but I Just noticed that someone just edited out Kendo within this word as a way to further prove their arguement. I'm gonna have to go through history and find out because its cheap to edit liable information in a subject just to argue your way further in the topic. So as others have said above, it shows a foreigner (non Japanese)(1),with a strong interest in Japan (2), pertaining to history (3) and kendo (4).

I also say if you think so badly about it go ahead and make a popular culture section that GetLow has been talking about and then the historical section. Cause every time I have heard "Japanophile" in my life it has been about someone that is obsessed with something with Japan with no reason other then it is Japanese. I've never heard anyone describe a historian or something as such.--BrookieDragon 14:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

BrookieDragon, I think you should stop relying on your stock of common knowledge taken off of Wikipedia to fuel your arguments. The description of the word "Japanophile" directly says a person with a limited perception of Japan is an un-cited statement probably added by an anon. IP user, and if I had the energy I'd probably argue to get that removed as well. I don't understand your statment often a foreigner either, because Japanophiles are always foreigners of Japan. Your description of "otaku" also hints at a lack of true knowledge of the term, and again I wouldn't advise you use the wiki page for reference on such a watered down topic. There will never be a "popular culture" section and a "history" section, because, well, wikipedia is not for posting imaginary unsourced documents. I don't know why you feel so strongly about this anyways.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  14:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)