Talk:List of surviving veterans of World War I/Archive 2

This article was nominated for deletion on November 13, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Robert ^{T | @ | C} 22:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Archives
Archive
5 Aug 2006 - 18 Jan 2007

Stanislaw Solinski

After chatting to both contacts & media in Poland, and in Dragonawa particulary, I am now even more certain Stanislaw Solinski is no longer alive, and as there are no media reports after his birthday in early 2005, that he almost certainly died later in that year. We must remember that not every death is covered by the press (Stephen Butcher, Harry Newcombe, Justin Poor) as perhaps it should be, but no media report should not be taken as proof of being alive. (and all three above are 100% dead) I will continue to work on finding (or scanning) an obit or a mention or something on this man for precise evidence of death (ie day) but as there is no evidence for him being alive (bar here, it seems - and that's not evidence), I would stress to people to please give me the benefit of a doubt here (as they did with Stephen Butcher), and allow his name to be removed, provisionally, into the 2005 deaths section until I can prove a date of death or online proof he has died. (or of course vice versa & he pops up alive again!)

Originally he was removed, but appeared back up again, strangely, towards the end of the year?

My brother-in-law is Polish, and a fluent Polish speaker & this is why I've got a vested interest in it & have been able to use contacts with this case even though my name is about as Polish as the late lamented Emiliano Mercado del Toro.

Thanks in advance for your understanding with this case, especially you, Bart, as you reinstated him last time.

Richard J —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.132.144.160 (talk) 18:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

Yes, since no one confirmed his death. Extremely sexy 00:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Greetings,

We should NOT move someone into '2005 deaths' with no confirmation of death. If you will, we can create a 'limbo cases' at the bottom of this page. Many people assumed dead turned out to be living...Edna Parker, Du Pinhua, Gladys Hawley, etc. Simply not being heard from on one's birthday is NOT proof of death. In the most extreme example, Du Pinhua was in the news in 2002 for her 116th birthday, and then not heard from again until 2006 for her 120th. With Edna Parker, she was heard from at her 109th, but not again until her 112th. For Gladys Hawley, she was heard from at her 109th birthday but not again until her 111th. Also, even if they died, we shouldn't invent a date. With Maria Bernatkova, we know she is dead, but we only have fl. 1968. No death date. Eventually, sometimes a death date is found (as with Maria Corba). Please be patient and STOP trying to make this a game of can we drop the most people possible. The list should reflect a balance between skepticism and optimism. The comments of some ("no one's died in a long time" and "they'll all be gone by 2006") were way off base. → R Young {^yakł_talk} 07:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that he should be left on the list until some type of confirmation of his death can be located. When it comes to these veterans, it is more likely that a birthday would be overlooked before a death. --Brianmccollum 09:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I might have guessed. Well, Robert Young, you deleted one of the French unknown veterans. Where is the proof? If you can't provide it, why did you delete him?

I was told that he died in December 2006. Last I checked, both he and Pawel Parniak were in the UNVERIFIED section. Last I checked, UNVERIFIED means 'NO PROOF.' Is this too hard for you to understand?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I know your credentials, but there's till no proof. Where is the proof that all these German veterans are alive or that they've died? Or is it a case of we trust Thomas or we trust Robert but we don't trust anyone else? We don't trust a French or British or Polish contributor?

It's a case of openness, transparency, and a track record. Credentials are earned. In the cases of the Germans or French or Italians, someone with a proven track record has said they are dead or alive. In the case of Poland, we don't have a track record and, moreover, what was claimed... that "Solinski's birthday in 2005 didn't make the papers" indicates that the Polish correspondents were not even claiming that they knew he was dead, only that they could not vouch that he was still alive. Last I checked, I suggested a LIMBO list for cases like this. Did you not read that? Also, if I revert an edit with multiple changes, I may not have favored all the original version. In fact, those who make the changes should make them one at a time, to allow cumulative improvement. I would favor moving Solinski back to the "unverified" list, where I had put him earlier (or did you forget?).→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

In that case, that's contributor snobbery & not exactly working together is it?

Name-calling is not exactly working together, is it?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It's hardly a "game" but do you really want the scenatio that the last veteran alive was found to be someone who died years ago?

That's what the unverified/limbo list is for.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I have asked local sources in Poland about him and they believe he is gone. I admit I can't prove it yet but look at some of the deaths in 2005 & 2006 & see if they have online proof - especially the Polish fellows.

If they believe he is gone, they should report it...but no one reported it! The only mention came from a French blogger!→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

There's still nothing online for Stephen Butcher. Under your rules, even though i've seen his death with my own eyes, he should be put back on, hmm?

I never added Stephen Butcher back. That was someone else. Making false charges don't accomplish anything. Also, you claim to have seen him die, yet no one has claimed to have seen Solinski die. There is a difference.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Look, however, although this lack of faith saddens me, can we have a compromise?

I already suggested a compromise...unconfirmed deaths should be moved to the bottom (either as unverified or as limbo cases). This isn't about faith, it's about making sure we are doing the right thing by double-checking.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Could his entry have a small mention of something along the lines of "may have died in 2005, confirmation currently being sought" or something? At the very least that would make things clearer about this particular case.

Thanks, Richard J

I do have faith in you, Richard. Extremely sexy 19:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Robert, your reply, more or less, is fair enough. There are still some sticking points (name calling for one, which you bring up, but then 20 words or so later you revert to), but I'll let them drop for the sake of resolving the issue. The only thing in reply to some of your post is that you keep stating Solinski and the "dead" "unknown" French veteran are in a limbo list. I can't see Solinski is in a limbo list, or an unverified list for that matter. I can't see "Raymond" in a limbo list. All I can see is SS in the main list, and Mr X as having died in 2006. So, I didn't "forget" that fact, as it isn't there to start off with! But whatever. I'll get this resolved & sort out something for Solinski before long.

Robert meant that he suggested this, Richard. Extremely sexy 21:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

If you look at http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weteran whoever is keeping track of the Polish veterans on this list also thinks that Solinski died 2005, fairly strong circumstantial evidence I would have thought, after all a Polish speaker is more likely to have spotted an obituary in a Polish paper, then us largely English Speakers here. [[SRwiki 10:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)]] 10:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

This misses the point, however. No one believes that Marie Bernatkova is still alive. However, her death was never reported. We cannot assume she died in 1968 without some facts. No one from Poland has said anything or posted anything with even a death date, and the claims that he died were equivocal...i.e. "I doubt that he is still alive" rather than "he died March 1 2005." There is a difference.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Last infrantry veterans?

Can someone make a list of the last 'infantry' veterans? After the death of Robert Meier, I wonder if there are any combat-wounded veterans left. Mr. Meier was actually shot in the knee...131.96.70.164 06:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a more general point here as well, it would be good if we could have a few notes on some of the veterans listed, The German, and Italian Vet lists, are noticeably short on background information. I am not doubting they are real Veterans, just that it would be nice to know a little bit more about them. A problematic one (well at least to me) is Stanislaw Wycech, if we don't even know which army he served with, how can he be validated? By the way, I've put some information on Wycech on th site as well. SRwiki 08:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Jim Lincoln, a bit of information

Evening All, Just idling round after, work and I found this little snippet on Jim Licoln: http://media.www.dailyemerald.com/media/storage/paper859/news/2006/10/18/SteppinOut/More-Than.Just.A.Bar-2375155.shtml?sourcedomain=www.dailyemerald.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com So apparently he lives in Eugene, Oregon, and sounds remarkably sprightly for a 108 year old. I was just wondering if now we know where he lives, if someone could do the Public records check on Jim Lincolns in the area of Eugene, and see if a 108 year old does live there. I would do it myself but I have no idea how to access the US public records. Thanks SRwiki 17:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What you've found is, I think, the same report that saw him put on here in the first place.

Below, however, is a list of male Lincolns in Eugene, Oregon:- make of it what you will......

A Lincoln B Lincoln Dale E Lincoln 37 yrs old David M Lincoln 32 yrs old Herbert E Lincoln 70yrs old Herbert L Lincoln 33yrs old J Lincoln James (Jim) Lincoln, 61 yrs old Leon E Lincoln 61 yrs old Robert D Lincoln 55 yrs old Samuel A Lincoln 41 yrs old

There are no more James or Jim Lincolns in the county (Lane) other than the one above.

As for the rest of Oregon.. the oldest is a fellow of 82, in Gresham, Oregon.

There are some without a birthdate as well, but whether they are mistakes, or the man himself, I do not know.

Well, that's the evidence......

Richard J

While I believe that Jim Lincoln is a fake, your searches shouldn't be misconstrued as comprehensive. Many people are unlisted in phone books. What search source are you using?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:35, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I never ever claimed my research was COMPREHENSIVE, Robert, please don't start this sniping AGAIN, I'm trying to let this unecessary unpleasantness go & work on resolving the issues. All I did, as requested by SRwiki, was check the US Public Records at a number of different sites. The above was what came up. I didn't suggest anything, delete anything, just presented some evidence on this case, for people to digest. What they do with that evidence is up to them..

My suggestion is he is a fake, but I'm not sure, and can't conclusively prove anything. But I can at least put supporting evidence for a case for & against, surely? After all, there's more evidence there above than a lot of WWI veterans have (say Raymond X for example).

But really the question we should all be asking is what evidence is being found to further SUPPORT his original claim and is that consistent with everybody else on this list?

Richard J

Perhaps a phone call placed to the bar may shed some light on the subject. The owners or employees may have some information, as well as the writer of the article. Perhaps Mr. Lincoln himself will be there when you call, and questions could be asked to him directly. --Brianmccollum 05:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry folks I realise I have been leading people up a blind alley here, The original citation: http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/06/28/d1.cr.108yearold.0628.p2.php?section=cityregion contains an interview with the man himself. I still don't believe it though, especially as there doesn't appear to be a record of a Jim Lincoln of the right age in the county.SRwiki 08:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe Jim Lincoln is real...but part of the justification for validation can be had by exposing fakes. So, if someone talks a tall tale and claims to be an extraordinary age and a WWI veteran, the idea is to blow the bubble out of proportion until it bursts (like Merlyn Kreuger). Eventually someone somewhere should find the time to track this man down and get to the bottom of this.

The point of having someone in the footnotes that may be a fake is not simply to give them a chance to prove it. It is also there to keep a watch on, and to be informative (otherwise someone several months later will say "hey guys look I found this new case"). Think of a "WANTED" poster...a "person of interest" wanted for further questioning.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 17:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Polish veterans

Hello there. I'm Polish. I've checked Polish websites and made some changes to the article. The previous main source, i.e. http://dersdesders.free.fr/pologne.html has mistkaen information on Kos surname and Wycech date of birth, there is a lack of Polish fonts. I've searched for Stanisław Soliński, but not a single information exists except for Polish Wikipedia pages, but those are based solely on this English Wikipedia article and http://dersdesders.free.fr/pologne.html webpage. While reading about weteran quests on wars anniversaries I've realised that Stanisław Soliński might have never lived, or might have deceased years ago, so I'm deleting his entry here.

So that's it? Does anyone know who this annonymous poster is? The regular posters had resolved to move Stanisław Soliński to the Limbo category for the time being until further information could be found. Being Polish does not give one authority or license to delete an entry. --Brianmccollum 06:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

By a strange coincidence I posted this to the Stanislaw Solinski thread yesterday.

If you look at http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weteran whoever is keeping track of the Polish veterans on this list also thinks that Solinski died 2005, fairly strong circumstantial evidence I would have thought, after all a Polish speaker is more likely to have spotted an obituary in a Polish paper, then us largely English Speakers here. SRwiki 10:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC) 10:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC) I think the evidence is building that Mr Solinski is probably deceased (or the new possibility that he never existed) SRwiki 07:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Stanislaw Solinski "existed" alright, but whether he was ever a WWI veteran was never confirmed, which makes it even more bizarre he should've been in the main list. (Look about half-way down) http://www.dziennik.krakow.pl/public/?2004/02.11/Podkarpacie

Anyway, it looks, like FINALLY he is off the list, like he should've been ages ago, and it seems I was justified all the time in suggesting he died in 2005. I hope my credentials are a little more "justified" now.....

Richard J

Oh please. How can a 2004 link prove that someone died in 2005? Preposterous! In 2004, 2005 hadn't occured yet. I'd rather delete Solinksi entirely than to completely make up a 'convenient' death-date.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the two above comments were badly edited by Statistican here Robert. The 2004 link was shown as an example that Solinski existed, not when he died. The comment that he had gone in 2005, was originally related to the polish Wikipedia page, that lists him as dying in 2005.

I think it would be fair to have read the thread at the time and in whole rather than resort to namecalling & rudeness later on. To be fair to you, it was badly edited but a moment's thought by you would've helped try & resolve the issue rather than cause any more bad feeling here.

Can somebody translate the link? Now he's listed as being in limbo. Can't the link solve the problem? Statistician 06.02.2007 13:18 (CET)

[[1]] 2 February 2007

1. Józef Kowalski
2. 2 February 1900-
3. 107 years old —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.30.181.75 (talk) 14:31, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

If possible, could you translate the article?

Yes, I can. Unlike Jung, this guy does appear to be a WWI vet...

Oldest inhabitant still gets around.Joseph is a inhabitant of rest home. He need a wheelchair, and has poor sight & hearing, but it is possible still for him to communicate and be communicated to. Mr. joseph is great company, and is lucky, as he has a big bunch of co-inhabitant of other members of the rest home with him always, and can count on frequent visits from his family near by. His secret to long life is not to worry so much.

Joseph was born in village of Kowalski Wicyn on 2 february 1900. He was in combat near the end of first world war with bolsheviks. In WW2, he was in captivity. Then after that he moved to Przemysławie Lubuskie, where he worked as a farmer. After ill-health he moved to the rest home, which houses over 200 people, many of whom are now over 100 years of age.

Cheers, Richard J

The polish Wiki doesn't list Kos, Józef & Wycech, Stanisław. Does anybody know why? Statistician 02.02.2007 20:33 (CET)

Could someone add this fellow to the list then, please? Since the tables were brought in, it's become mighty difficult to add people. He seems to have more credence than some of the US veterans, for a start.

Aarne Arvonen

If you read this: http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20020806IE7 Absolutely nothing in there to suggest he is a Veteran. Thoughts anyone? SRwiki 18:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The article appears to suggest he is a war veteran of the Finnish Civil War, but not of World War 1. But when it says recruited to work in St. Petersburg, would this be "recruited" as in a job, or "recruited" as in the army?

What I will say though is there seems to be an awful lot of adding "veterans" on just because they're male, and over 105.......

Given that the article says he was taken on a six month contract I would go for recruited for a job. If you dig round some of the links It is mentioned this was after the Russian revolution SRwiki 18:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

He is a veteran of the Finnish Civil War, according to a Finnish correspondent. However, it could be argued that this is part of WWI (after all, the war began in 1917, when Russia was weakened due to German attacks). So he served before the Armistice.

Thoughts?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 19:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we can find someone who speaks Finnish, and can translate the Finnish wiki-article at http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne_Arvonen Statistician 02.02.2007 20:33 (CET)

I found a translator (into German): "> Ensimmäisen maailmansodan aikana hän oli linnoitustöissä > Venäjällä.

Im ersten Weltkrieg war er in Festungsarbeiten in Russland.

> Vuoden 1918 sodassa hän oli punaisten puolella ja joutui > vankileirille Tammisaareen.

Im Krieg des Jahres 1918 war er auf der Seite der Roten und kam in einen Gefangenenlager in Tammisaari."

In English: In WWI hier work on a fort in Russia. In the war of 1918 he was on the side of the Red and came in a prison camp in Tammisaari (Ekenäs)."

-> He isn't a WWI-Veteran. Statistician 03.02.2007 0:45

But is he a veteran? Of the Finnish Civil War, which could be thought of as part of WWI? After all, the French and Indian War in the American Colonies is considered part of the Seven Years War in Europe→ R Young {^yakł_talk}

Likewise, the War of Jenkins' Ear is said to be part of the War of the Austrian Succession even though it started first.

Rather than state things in unequivocal terms, it is better to state the facts and allow the reader to draw their own conclusions.

Did Clement Ader invent the airplane? Hmmm...what about Gustave Whitehead? When you consider that the Wright Brothers were only considered the 'inventors' of flying after bribing the Smithsonian in 1948, and that the 2003 model replica failed to fly, we can see that 'history' is not facts but INTERPRETATION.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 05:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Back to topic, can we consider this man a veteran of the war or not? Many of you regulars here know a great deal about this time period, so maybe we could all take a few days to review and research and then come up with a valid conclusion. Can we consider these Finnish battles as part of the war? How has this (Finnish)war been treated in modern history thus far, as I can't believe this is the first occasion that such an issue has presented itself? I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say. Despite whatever arguments that may have arisen thus far, if this old soldier deserves recogintion as a WWI Veteran, then we have a duty to see that he is properly recognized on this page. This should be an interesting discussion, but, as goes without saying, please site facts and sources.--Brianmccollum 07:28, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Going aside from the off-topic nonsense from Robert Young, which has no place here, it is quite clear that Arvonen is a veteran of the Finnish Civil War, but not of World War 1. In that case, that would put him in the WWI era section, along with Charles Brunier.

Anyone with that small of mind shouldn't even be in this discussion. So, you think who invented the airplane is not debatable? Please. Even Louis Epstein agrees that Gustave Whitehead flew before the Wright brothers. Taking a larger view, if you fail to see the analogy between, for example, the French/Indian War is to the Seven Years' War as the Finnish Civil War is to WWI, then I suggest you need some refresher courses in both logic and history.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Who invented the aeroplane is indeed worthy of discussion. Just not here, in what I remind the author is a discussion on World War 1 veterans. I can see the analogy but there's simply no need to go into depth about something that has no relevance at all in this discussion. Who cares what Louis Epstein thought about the first flight when we are discussing Finnish veterans for goodness sake???? Interesting also that you talk about a good debate and that name-calling is the last bastion of a losing argument and you sign off with a suggestion that people should learn their history as they're ignorant.. Hmm.. Pot Kettle Black....

Might I add, a good debate isn't simply about right and wrong but each side should learn something from the other, and give some ground when the other side deserves credit. Again, name-calling IS the last bastion of a losing argument. So, calling historical analysis 'nonsense' lowers the debate for everyone. Claiming it is 'off-topic' is even further from logical.

Taking a larger view, check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

If we don't want him as a WWI vet, then at least a WWI-era vet. How can the US consider American Expeditionary Forces in Russia WWI veterans, but we can't consider Finns in the Russian Empire as WWI vets? Also, even the name 'Finnish Civil War' is a misnomer, as it is more a struggle for independence from Russia, which was an opportunity that arose from the confluence of Germany's attack on Russia, the Bolshevik revolution, and the deep dissatisfaction with many with the world's largest land empire, a polyglot assemblage made by force and ruled through fear.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The Finnish Civil War isn't a part of WWI, but a result of WWI and the Russian Revolution. I would give him extra credit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_last_events#Finnish_Civil_War

Okay: I agree. Extremely sexy 16:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

We claim it is a "world" war, but we don't even include all of Europe? Had Germany not attacked Russia, the Finnish Civil War wouldn't have happened. And it happened before Nov 11 1918.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

You are probably correct that if Germany hadn't attacked Russia the Finnish war would not have happened, but then again you could say exactly the same about the Second World War, which would not have happened without the First World war, or that the First World War wouldn't have happened without the Franco-Prussian war of 20 odd years earlier, or that the Franco Prussian war would not have happened without.... and so on. Everything has cause and effect, no war exists in a hermetically sealed bubble. but in order to make some sense of what has happened it is necessary to seperate conflicts out by Chronology, combatants etc. Looking at the Finnish Civil war (or independence war - I am trying to be neutral here)it appears we have a province of the Russian Empire attempting to Seccede, and the war is fought almost entitrely between internal pro and anti forces. World War 1 era? - certainly, a part of World War 1?, personally I don't think so SRwiki 09:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the article, written by someone other than me:

The Finnish Civil War was a part of the national and social turmoil caused by World War I (1914-1918) in Europe. The war was fought from January 27, 1918 to May 15, 1918, between the forces called the "Reds" (punaiset) led by the People's Deputation of Finland under the control of the Finnish Social Democrats, and the forces called the "Whites" (valkoiset), led by the Senate of Vaasa representing the Senate of Finland formed by the bourgeois parties. The Red Finland was supported by Soviet Russia, and the White Finland by the German Empire and Swedish volunteers.

Hmmm...so Germany supported the 'whites' and Russia the 'reds.'

Saying the Finnish Civil War isn't part of WWI is like saying Afghanistan isn't part of the "War on Terror."→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 23:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree...in that case do we include veterans of the Russian Revolution? Czolgolz 02:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a good point. I was thinking about that, too. :) The First World War ended in Russia in 1917... the Finnish Civil War after that. If the Russians wouldn't have fought with the Germans, the Germans don't Lenin back to Russia - so is the Russian Revolution a part of WWI? I don't think so. There were a lot of fights after the WWI as results of the WWI, but not part of WWI: Polish-Soviet War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#Freedom_wars_.281918-1922.29 Statistician 06.02.2007

What exactly do you mean with "the Germans don't Lenin back to Russia"? Extremely sexy 12:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot "send": "the Germans don't send Lenin back to Russia".

Statistician 06.02.2006, 15:54 (CET)

So in fact you really meant "the Germans wouldn't have sent Lenin back to Russia", right? Extremely sexy 16:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Statistician 08.02.2006, 01:48 (CET)

Got it, man. Extremely sexy 11:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, include civil wars in Africa being fought between 1914-1920, then. In fact any wars before 1924.......

There were German troops fighting for the "Whites", Russian troops fighting for the "Reds", some possibly in the very same trenches with Aarne Arvonen. Are those Germans and Russians WWI-veterans ? If they are then Aarne Arvonen is as well, don't you think ?

I think this depends very much on who we think of as WWI-veteran. The Finnish Civil War was very much part of a greater picture but is not as well known as eastern or western front as it seems. On both sides there were international troops supporting their interests. There were Russian and German troups taking part in fighting. I am sure You and most of us would consider these soldiers serving in Finland as WWI-veterans. Aarne "Arska" Arvonen was serving with the "Reds" side by side with Russian soldiers, maybe against his will but anyway he was there. They lost making this "Finnish front" as perhaps the only scene in WWI were the German side did win in the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Civil_War describes well the involvement of German and Russian troops.

I think it could be discussed a little further what does it mean to be a WWI-veteran ? What restrictions for the definition there are ? Are some of the war scenes not counted in ? Is it that someone serving the Red Finnish Army cannot be classified as WWI-veteran ? Is this only because he is not serving the Russian Army ? Even when the Russian soldiers may have been in the very same trenches at the same time ?131.96.70.164 01:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Note: I didn't write the above, I just copied/pasted what a Finnish correspondent e-mailed me.131.96.70.164 01:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point, but I think, our working definition of a Vet includes soldiers of a combatant nation, regardless of where they where, I would hazard a guess that a fair few British soldiers spent the war guarding some rock or other in the Indian Ocean, but for our purposes we would count them as WW1 vets, solely on the basis of being in uniform, for a relevant country. Not entirely sure if that answers the question, but in the case of the German intervention in Finland, a case could be made that they where furthering the aims of Germany in WWI (i.e. to get the Russians permanently out of the war), so they are WW1 vets, but the same may not apply to the Finnish fighters.

It's a bit messy, I agree, but simultaneous does not always mean the same as to go off topic a little: the UK has fought several simultanous wars, e.g. The Second Afghan War (1878-1881), and The Zulu War (1879), but no-one would argue they were the same war. So in this case you could argue that Germany was fighting two wars, and then argue whether any German soldier who only fought in the Finnish Civil War, should be considered a WW1 vet or not, but given the relative brevity, and number of German troops involved, I suspect this would have amounted to no more than a handful of German troops, - but if one ever came to light, then it make for an interesting debate SRwiki 12:27, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference, however; the Zulu and Afghans were not a united enemy. In both WWI and the actions in Finland, Germany was fighting the Russian empire, so they were fighting the same enemy at the same time. I believe that at least constitutes being a WWI-era veteran, and some could view the conflict as part of a whole. The only connection between the Zulu and Afghans would be a larger concept such as "British Imperialism" (like the "War on Terror") whereas the other had common enemies (Germany vs. Russia, Germany vs. Russia) at the same time131.96.70.164 01:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The WWI-Era is getting a bit messy. I know it was talked about quite a bit last year. I was for having an Era listing, but wonder how far it should go. I am comfortable to have a cut off date for USA veterans as being 11-11-1918, and for the USA Era veterans extend to 6-28-1919. The USA veteran Era would be extended to those US veterans that went to Russia to fight during the end of WWI and after, but of those 5,050 they are all deceased, and as for the US Vets that went to Siberia I believe all of these soldiers are deceased (if any of them are alive the VA considers them WWI vets, and they are allowed a WWI victory medal). That is only my opinion of how the USA vets should be counted. AS for some of the other countries it is a bit messy. I kind of like the Era section and even the limbo section and unverified. This gives us a heads up. The main thing that bothers me is adding and removing those from the main list without either a document to verify a date they were in the service, and to move one out when we cannot find a newspaper stating the person has died. I think the Era section can and probably will be a can of worms, but it gives us something to work with to make sure no official WWI vet has been left out. I really think we need to be strick about the main listing. I also think it would be a good idea to list any special atributes as for example Mr. Mayne being the last British officer (probably the last allies officer for sure), and if they were only in training or saw combat. We have decided that it does not matter if they were only in training, and I am fine with that, but if we know for sure lets list that on the side. (PershinBoy) 63.3.7.2 05:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I always suspected it would get a bit messy, the next challenge will be when possible claims are unearthed from conflicts where most (if not all) of the combatants were not part of an organised army as such. Still should make for some interesting debates SRwiki 09:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

If we cannot agree that Aarne is a "true" WWI vet, how about adding a heading "Finnish Civil War" ? Aarne does differ from US vets under heading WWI era veterans in many ways. He was at the front before the rmistice, along with some "true" WWI vets unlike none of the US vets in the category. Could you live with this ? Also, if you think of the description "Veterans, for the purposes of this list, have been agreed to be those that were members of the armed forces of one of the nations involved in the War, up to and including the date of the German Armistice that ended the War on 11 November 1918. Other WWI-era veterans are listed separately. This policy may vary from the policy in actual use in some countries", one could very well think of Finland as a combatant nation. There, the peace treaty wasn't signed before October 1920 in Tartu, Estonia. Please look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tartu_%28Russian-Finnish%29.

What do we mean by World War I Era?

Morning All, now that Arvo has re-appeared on the list, I think we need to get more of a handle on what the term "world war 1 era" veteran means for the purposes of this list. Originally it appears to have merely followed how the US defines a world war 1 veteran, but as far as I can see it's definition is slowly expanding, not that I have a huge problem with this, currently we have two claimants from French Syrian expidition, and from the Finnish Civil War (or war of independence depending ou your view) but there are other conflicts that fall into this era, most of which are a product of the end of the war, (e.g. Russian Civil War, Greco-turkish war, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_1900%E2%80%931944 for a fuller list. If we are to have a world war 1 era veteran, category then we would have to include veterans from a whole slew of minor - mostly European Conflicts arguably going up to the 1924 Georgia uprising. I am just wondering if other people are OK with sort of thinking, as we could end up with dozens of names on the World war 1 Era list - assuming people track them down in the first place.

In the meantime I have moved Charles Brunier and Arvo into the WW1 era list.

Thanks SRwiki 09:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, new user interested in this subject. Why not a "world war 1 era" catergory including related conflicts worldwide through 1919, and cut there, since the recent US "WW1 era" veterans included joined the armed forces not later than 1919. No need to go up to 1924.

I would also like another Finnish civil war participant added to the list, Lennart Rönnback, b. may 21,1905. He joined the finnish fight for freedom before his 13:th birthday & his first active fight was to help unarming the Russian troops in Vaasa Jan 28, 1918. See swedish language article http://www.vasabladet.fi/story.aspx?storyID=581819 Regards, Hepcat65 07:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Before we add him, can some-one translate the article in question? my natural reaction is to treat any claim to have been a boy soldier with fair degree of caution, we think William Olins claim to have been a 13 year old soldier, is wrong. I would treat a claim to have been an even younger combatant, with even more suspicion. Don't get me wrong I don't doubt boy soldiers have and regrettably still do exist, but any claim appearing out of the blue some 90 years after the event, needs to be approached with caution.

I would also treat the story of disarming Russian Troops in Vasa, with some scepticism, as far as I am aware Vasa was firmly in the grip of the White Finnish forces from the start, so I am a little sceptical about whether there where any Russian troops there to be disarmed. I must stress again, it could have happened, but i think a bit more proof is required.

On a more general note, I chose the 1924, at the Georgia uprising is the last gasp of the unrest to have engulfed Russia in the wake of the Revolution. But it also highlights the problem, that we could end up with lots of very difficult to dis/prove claims from small, poorly recorded wars, involving non-regular combatants 86.129.202.51 10:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was proper to include the Finnish Civil war in the "ww1 era" since it took place before the armistacle.. the Georgia uprising seems a bit late. Here's my translation of interesting parts of the article about Lennart Rönnback ; "Lennart Rönnback had not even reached his 13:th birthday when he, as a member of Böle protection unit took part of the disarmament of the Russians in Vaasa January 28, 1918. He would actually not have been allowed to carry firearms, but did it nevertheless. He borrowed one revolver of a villager.

But it did not come to use. It lay all the time safely in the pocket during the fights, he says. Rönnback came there with his group, transferred to strengthen the so called Gerbykolonnen with the archipelago inhabitants. But nowadays, few details from that january Sunday is retained in his memory.

Lennart Rönnback was born May 21, 1905. His mother died in 1913 and when also his father went in 1918, he had to move to his uncle in Böle. During the nervous days of the war of independence, he served as a guard as many other boys.

From my uncle I borrowed a Grafton gun. But I got only one cartridge. And my uncle was most anxious about the Grafton gun wouldn't end up in the Russians' hands, he says with a big smile. A strong memory from the freedom war concerns the sight of Onni Kokko lying injured with bandage around the head at the hospital in Vaasa. Kokko was adjutant to the lutennant Oskar Peltokangas from Brändö. Rönnback remembers that he admired Kokko for his bravery and he therefore decided to visit him at the hospital where he lay injured. He can not have been more than 14 years old, Rönnback says. On this point (Finnish historian) Nils Erik Nykvist in Vaasa can add that Onni Kokko was fast as a weasel and very popular among the men. Both Kokko and Peltokangas was fatally injured in Tampere March 25, 1918. Both lies buried in the heroes graves in Vaasa."

Extra material on child soldiers in the Finnish civil war: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:LimingaSoldier13years.jpg "13-year-old child soldier Onni Kokko from Liminka. The child fought on the white side of the Finnish Civil War in 1918. Such child soldiers were commonplace on both sides." Hepcat65 13:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair play to you, it appears as though child soldiers were common, so I can't really argue against his inclusion as WW1 era vet SRwiki 13:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Does the French government only recognise western front veterans?

I have just found a site that has a picture of the French Medal struck for those involved in the Gallipoli campaign - http://www.diggerhistory2.info/graveyards/pages/equip-uniform/fr-medals.htm - go about 3/4 of the way down. So I am just wondering how did it come to pass that the French government only officially recognises Western front veterans, can any one shed any light? Thanks SRwiki 16:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Franz Künstler

Someone keeps changing my correction with respect to German resident Franz Künstler. He is an Hungarian citizen residing in Germany. He served for the Austro-Hungrian forces and later moved to Germany. I can´t tell when he moved to Germany, but I know for sure he kept his Hungarian citizenship. He is the final survivor of the Austro-Hungarian forces.

Okay, but can you prove this? Extremely sexy 22:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I changed it back. The Name "Franz Künstler" is a typical German name, and so, without proof I don't know why it should be changed. Statistician 12.02.2007 1:16 (CET)

I found the following two articles:

http://www.niederstetten.de/aktuell/archiv/archiv01.html "Über den im Jahre 1900 in der Nähe von Temeschwar geborene Ungar berichtet am Montag, 7. August zwischen 18.45 u. 19.45 Uhr die Landesschau unter SWR."

http://www.fnweb.de/archiv/2006/m09/11/me/region/20060911_f0b1154001_24406.html "Geführt werden die Besucher seit nunmehr 30 Jahren von Franz Künstler, dessen Geschichte ebenso interessant erscheint wie die des Museums. Geboren am 24. Juli 1900 in Soost, Ungarn, wurde er gegen Ende des zweiten Weltkrieges aus seiner Heimat vertrieben. Seit 1946 lebt der inzwischen 106-Jährige nun im alten Pfarrhaus direkt am Schloss." The first one says "born Hungarian", but the second one writes that he was dispersed after WWII - like many people with German origin at that time... So, it sounds to me that he is what we call in Germany a "Spätaussiedler" (= people with German origin who come back to Germany after some generation - normally they achieve the German citizenship when they come to Germany). I will do some research. Statistician 12.02.2007 1:28 (CET)

I believe that too - if he was born with that name in Temeschwar in "Siebenbürgen", he is most probably a descendant of the "Siebenbürger Sachsen" who came from Germany some generations before.

I've phoned a woman how works with him. She says that he was born as a German-Hungarian and was dispersed, because he was German. She thinks that he has the German citizenship, but will talk with him to prove that - but that will need some time, because we will have to solve this with letters. Statistician 12.02.2007 13:02 (CET)

I was wondering if Franz Künstler really is the final survivor of the Austro-Hungarian forces. Could it be that he served for the German forces instead, given he is a German-Hungarian? (unsigned comment)

Hungary was a part of Austria-Hungary, and so he fought for Austria-Hungary. What's the problem about that?

Statistician 19.02.2007 3:16 (CET)

Last U.S. combat veterans

Greetings,

I question the assertion that Howard Ramsey is the last U.S. combat veteran.

First, let's not forget that, technically, those who served in the Navy could have been torpedoed by U-boats, so Lloyd Brown could be considered a combat veteran.

Second, Frank Buckles did go to France: http://www.talkingproud.us/HistoryWWIVets.html.

I'm not going to argue that escorting German POW's was that dangerous, but Howard Ramsey drove supply trucks, not exactly an infantry position itself.

So, I think even among the term 'combat veteran' we need to separate those very few who served on the front line, in the line of fire, from those working logistics/operations that incurred some risk but not extreme risk.

Obviously, Harry Patch and Henry Allingham may be said to have incurred extreme risk. Any others come to mind?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 06:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The real point I'm making is that the first thing people have when they think of 'combat veteran' or WWI is the trenches. Given how dangerous they were, relatively few survived in proportion to those who performed the still-vital but less risky tasks of supply. In a sense, Mr Pierro could be seen as the last 'real' US combat veteran. Even he usually was part of the 'supply' team but hearing some of his stories...such as being ordered to pick up live shells and him nearly getting hit by another, makes me think that Pierro, even if not an infantryman, still was close enough to the front to have experienced signficant danger.

A few years ago, Alfred Pugh claimed to be the 'last combat-wounded WWI veteran' (at least from the U.S.). Of course that was overstated. But the recent deaths of Maurice Floquet (Nov 10 2006) and Robert Meier (Jan 29 2007) (both combat-wounded veterans) makes me wonder if any of the remaining veterans were wounded by enemy fire. There is a chance there may be a few; the point here is, can we identify these people so they can get the recognition they deserve while still living, not after they have passed on and been overlooked.65.81.28.227 17:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

One more thought: ironic that Charles Brunier was wounded in combat! He was a hero and awarded medals as such (in both world wars). But he was also a 'villain' for killing someone. So he is disqualified from 'icon' status, but as for historical facts, his place needs a little more research but most agree he was wounded in action.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 17:14, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Harry Patch certainly WAS injured by enemy combat, that's been well chronicled. Whether he's the only remaining veteran who is, maybe others can confirm? Richard J

Ok, I do think Antonio Pierro was the last U.S. veteran that had really served on or near the front lines. Even Mr. Pierro wasn't an infantryman, but went to the front lines to retrieve dead bodies, itself a dangerous job. Howard Ramsey drove trucks (still dangerous but far less so than the 'front line'). It seems we have a sliding-scale here.

With the bursting of the US. age bubble (Emiliano Mercado Del Toro, Moses Hardy, George Johnson, Ernest Pusey, Antonio Pierro) and numbers bubble (dropping from 13 to 6 since Nov 11 2006), there certainly isn't much left for the U.S. WWI vet fans to cheer for. Italy is back in the lead again with 7....→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Italy leads? I think you'll find it's Britain - Choules, Young, Lucas, Bolaise, Allingham, Patch, Mayne, Stone, Powers - 9. Though it must hurt you to give Britain credit for something, Mr Young

One would think that you would bother to SIGN your posts. Note that this article lists persons by residence, and using that standard, Italy leads with 7 veterans. If you choose to list persons by place of birth, don't forget that Ponticelli and Tuveri were born in Italy and last I checked, 7+2=9. So, Italy leads. It may hurt you to admit that a nation with far fewer veterans to start with has been the equal of the mighty Brits...that is, if you include the disputed Violet Bolaise case. As for England, I'll give you credit for winning Wimbledon in 1936.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: this isn't over until the last veteran passes away. And if you 'win,' you win. C'est la vie.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

For a "noted historian", and "well-travelled" person to think that "England" & "Britain" is one & the same is an unforgiveable error. Good thing Alfred Anderson is no longer alive.... How he would have bristled to have been called "English".

But then, what else to expect of a Brit-hater. The War of Independence ended..ahem.. a while back, Mr Young, move on. (unsigned comment)

First off, let me say that as a child I actually 'rooted for' the Tories, because I felt the American educational system was too jingoistic. I in fact take a stand against what I see as TOO MUCH BIAS in favor of one group over another. In the case of WWI vets, we see virtually every UK veteran now listed with their own article, but for the rest of the group, we're surprised to see one story for France, zero for Italy, etc. Hence, it is not about 'hating the Brits' that I'm about, but standing up against the tide of provincialism...seeing one's own group as overly important.

Second, I clearly know what England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, etc. are. This is a TALK page, not a scholarly journal. Personally I think the real shame is the amount of hate between England and Scotland. But, as I said "English" because last I checked, Scotland had ZERO remaining WWI vets while England had nine.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 21:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S.: hardly surprising that there's so few British veterans left now considering the sheer amount killed in the war. So, if you take that into consideration - the Italians have the most left... Figures...

Greetings, aside from all this, why is Violet Bolaise's service disputed as mentioned above? Her service was verified in 2006, by Dennis Goodwin, the UK's foremost World War 1 expert, and friend & confidante to the remaining British veterans. Surely we're not doubting Goodwin's word, (for if we do, we doubt anybody's word) or have I missed something? (unsigned)

Sounds rather convincing to me. It says her start date is unknown, but isn't only the end date important here? Czolgolz 21:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

But the problem is whether she served before the Armistice or not, my dear friends. Extremely sexy 22:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to confirm I wrote to Dennis Goodwin at the end of last year, and he confirmed to me that he may have made an honest mistake concerning her start date, and was investigating further. I was the one who noted Violet Bolaise's entry accordingly. You have reminded me that it is about time I wrote to him again. Thanks. SRwiki 09:27, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It's my pleasure, as you should know. Extremely sexy 11:22, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Louis Lagaurnadie

Should this fellow be on the list at all?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?act=Print&client=printer&f=3&t=64988 http://jolagier.blog.lemonde.fr/jolagier/2005/10/combien_resteti.html (towards the end) http://seb77.blogs.nouvelobs.com/archive/2006/11/index.html

Both the veteran himself & his government don't consider him a veteran - so why should Wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.156.230.214 (talk) 22:16, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

Greetings,

You should understand that the term "poilus" doesn't really translate well to English. In France, a WWI veteran must have served 3+ months in combat. None of this 'one day on the train' stuff like in the U.S. Even the one saying he is not a veteran said he joined in April 1918. By U.S. standards Lagaurnadie is a WWI veteran...but not by the higher French standards.

Also, let's not forget that sources conflict. Desderers lists Orin Peterson as a US WWI veteran:

4 millions de soldats américains furent engagés dans la guerre 14-18. 100.000 y trouvèrent la mort.

Les derniers survivants sont:

- Lloyd Brown (07-10-1901) : Charlotte Hall (Maryland) ; il servit à bord du navire de combat le USS New Hampshire. - Howard V. Ramsey (02-04-1898) : Portland (Oregon) ; il servit dans l'AEF en France durant les derniers mois de guerre. - Frank Buckles (01-02-1901) : Charles Town (Ouest Virginie) - Anthony Pierro (15-02-1896) : Swampscott, Massachusset ; d'origine italienne, il émigra aux Etats-Unis en 1914 ; il combattit pour les USA en France (à l'Ilse-Aisne, St. Michel, Meuse-Argone). - Jud Wagner (05-09-1899) : Kansas - John F. Babcock (23-07-1900) : Spokane, Washington (US) ; combattit dans l'Armée canadienne. - Coffey J. Russell (01-09-1898) : Ohio - Samuel Golberg (19-03-1900) : il servit dans la cavalerie. - Harry Landis (12-12-1899) : Tampa Bay (Floride) - Charlotte Winters (10-11-1897) : Maryland ; servit dans l'US-Navy - Orin Peterson (27-02-1900) : Washington ; il servit sur le continent américain.

So, which way do you want it?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:11, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see, thanks. I can see why he is listed, when you take into account others. Fair enough, I just wondered. PETERSON SAYS HE DID NOT JOIN UNTIL POST 11-11-1918...... LET'S NOT GET THAT STARTED AGAIN.

Wilhelm Remmert

I found an unknown German WWI-Veteran. I phoned his family and spoke with them. Sadly there isn't any article at all about him. Statistician 12.02.2007 13:33 (CET)

So, how did you find out anyway, and when exactly was he born? Extremely sexy 13:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

We know that he still lives, and normally all German men of 18+ served in the War - not serving was a exception. So I talked to his family and asked them if he was in WWI. This is the same way newspapers confirm this, since there aren't offical lists in Germany. Statistician 12.02.2007 14:13 (CET)

Okay then, but do you know as well where exactly he lives, please? Extremely sexy 15:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Just one word of caution: without further proof, I would not be so quick to call veterans like Remmert and Kaiser "second oldest" or "third oldest German man". Not all men of that age served in WW1, for various reasons. For example, there were quite a number of fourth, fifth, sixth... sons who in most cases did not serve because three of their elder brothers did.

Greetings,

Please note that the German Office for Federal Administration maintains a list of everyone in Germany aged 100+. The chances of a case missing aged 107+ is extremely small. However, it is likely that as you said there will be more German underage cases emerging. Part of the problem was that there was a social stigma about the war until very recently. With people like Charles Kuentz and Robert Meier coming forward to meet Allied WWI vets, many of the German vets are finally OK with being recognized.

So, let's suppose someone was recruited at 15 and was born in 1903. Today they would be 103 or 104 years old. Chances are, we won't know about him being a WWI vet unless he lives to 105 or older (when our German trackers are starting to track). So, as I said earlier, there will be WWI vets until at least 2009, probably later.

What we are running out of, however, are WWI infantry/combat-wounded vets, of which very few remain.

Sincerely, Robert Young→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 10:53, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

1. It's right that not all German men served in WWI, but the Veterans are selected out of the list of the oldest German men. 2. In WWI it was not possible to serve as a child. Perhaps a 17-year-old boy can serve freely, but Germany didn't recrute them. So we can say that the last Veterans can be found very soon. There wouldn't be any born after 1901 - and 1901 for itself is very unlikely. 3. The official German list of people 100+ isn't what you think. The local registrations send the datas to the Bundespräsidialamt, and the Bundespräsidialamt sends them a letter (for 100th birthdays and every other birthday starting with the 105th), so if the local authorities forget to report them they wouldn't be in the statistics. There are cases not counted in the list... and people that don't work for the government can't take a look at this list... 16.02.2007 11:43 (CET) (unsigned comment)

WWI Era Veterans and Veterans of the First World War who died since 1999

There is another problem with that: someone listed as WWI Veteran in Veterans of the First World War who died in 2007: Lehtinen, Eino. He's a Finnish Civil War Veteran, so he should be listed as WWI Era Veteran. I deleted him from Veterans of the First World War who died in 2007. Statistician 13.02.2007 0:50 (CET)

By the way, someone deleted my text from last night - I think because he/she only restored an older version of the discussion page - so I posted it again (now as a new topic). What do you think about the topic? Statistician 13.02.2007 12:18 (CET)

You are doing a great job, man. Extremely sexy 11:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought you were going to ARCHIVE the pertinent deleted messages, but I see no archived messages after Jan 18.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 08:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly which messages you are looking for? You can see all articles I've archived on the history page: other articles after that aren't my doing.

Statistician 14.02.2007 16:05 (CET)

So everything has been saved, Stéphane? Extremely sexy 15:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Why have all the previous messages been deleted by Statistician? Links like the Stephen Butcher information have gone completely? The last archived message I can see is 18 January, but there seems a heck of a lot missing since then........?

I hope he didn't delete those "solved" cases, since everything should definitely be kept in an archive. Extremely sexy 01:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Statistician,

No one can find these 'archived' cases. Where did they go?→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 10:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

And moreover, where did he go? Extremely sexy 12:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

They had been saved in the wrong archive, but now they are in the right one. A point to think about: The Finnish Civil War was from January 27 to May 15, 1918, but WWI ended March 3, 1918 for Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty of Brest-Litovsk). So what? Do you really think this is a part of WWI? Country A is fighting against B and starts a war against C: is the war against C the same as the one against B? (unsigned comment)

Would like some more information about Mr. Harry Landis of Florida

It seems to me, from the article I read, his situation is like that of Mr. J. Russell Coffey. He was also in training before the war ended. However, Mr. Landis did not speak out as being a WWI vet. since he was sent home after training, and was not sent to the battlefield. Perhaps he thought 'training only' did not count as being a WWI vet. HOWEVER, it is my understanding that training was before 11-11-1918. If so, he would in fact be a WWI vet. I am hoping there are other cases out there like this, and believe there may be a couple more. I really believe there are more German WWI vets out there, that were not in the fight long, but were veterans in the age range of 13 to 16. Any constructive thoughts more than welcome. 63.3.7.129 07:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)(PershinBoy)

It sounds like Harry Landis would be a full veteran. Mr. del Toro was in training as well when the War ended. I agree with your statement about the German World War I veterans. I feel the same way about Russian veterans. The fact that two veterans of the Finnish Civil War (I would still count them as World War I veterans, having been with the Russian Army) were discovered just now shows me that that there are likely more left that have not been discovered. The same is probably true for the United States as well. (unsigned comment)

I don't think so about German veterans. This was WWI, not WWII. German soldiers of 13-16 for this War are not common. (unsigned comment)

You are correct, I was thinking more of WWII. I do think there are a couple more Germans and Russians out there, and maybe another U.S. vet that doesn't think he counts because he was only in training. 63.3.7.129 16:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)(PershinBoy)

The 1930 census lists Harry Richard Landis as a WWI veteran. Clearly, this is not a case of vanity or age exaggeration. Considering that Mr. Landis's wife is still alive and he is caring for her, I'm sure he is more concerned with her than with his own recognition. The WWI draft lists Harry as drafted in Sept 1918. He reportedly began training (per the reporter) in Oct. 1918 before being sent home after the Armistice. So far no new US vets have been discovered since Mr. Landis, although worldwide we had Mr. Remmert of Germany emerge earlier this month. One French vet still remains anonymous.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Maurice Starkey

What happened to his listing in WWI Era Vets? Did he pass away, or was he just deleted? --Brianmccollum 16:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

He passed away in December of 2006. (unsigned comment)

Indeed so, a mere six days before his 105th birthday, my dear friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_of_the_First_World_War_who_died_in_2006. Extremely sexy 17:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Thank you for filling me in. --Brianmccollum 20:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's my pleasure, as you should know. Extremely sexy 22:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Renaming military 'veterans' to 'personnel'

Am I the only one who was disappointed at this broadside?

(diff) (hist) . . mb Surviving veterans of World War I‎; 01:34 . . (+10) . . Cydebot (Talk | contribs) (Robot - Moving category Lists of veterans to Lists of military personnel per CFD at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 February 2.)

Last I checked, everyone in this list is a former, not current, member of the military. Also, the word 'personnel' sounds so lame and business-speak...human resources personnel. People become simple personnel clones.

Also disturbing was that these re-names were made without alerting any of the list participants...a bad-faith gesture. I suggest someone re-open the discussion and hold another vote.

Or, we could go with the flow and have a blanched version: "Antonio Pierro was the last American personnel of the Meuse-Argonne Offensive." Doesn't work for me.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 07:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I cannot agree more with you, Robert. Extremely sexy 10:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Finnish civil war veterans

Uhm - is the Finnish civil war considered a part of World War I? Is that specific for the Finnish civil war or is any conflict during the time of World War I considered an integreal part of World War I? Gardar Rurak 08:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Also - I can accept including Finnish civil war veterans on this page if there are special circumstances which somehow links the civil war to World War I - I don't know enough about either of the two events to know if this is the case. However, it's pointless to write up the names of everybody who lived and fought in a conflict during this time - this would include quite a few conflicts:

• 1910-1920 Mexican Revolution
• 1911-1912 Xinhai Revolution
• 1911-1912 Italo-Turkish War
• 1912-1913 Balkan Wars
  • 1912-1913 First Balkan War
  • 1913 Second Balkan War
• 1915 United States occupation of Haiti
• 1916 Easter Rising rebellion in Ireland
• 1916-1931 Basmachi Revolt
• 1917-1918 Russian Revolution
• 1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War
• 1918 Finnish Civil War
• 1918-1920 Armenian-Azeri War
• 1918-1919 Sochi conflict
• 1918-1920 Georgian-Ossetian conflict (1918-1920)
• 1918 Georgian-Armenian War
• 1918-1919 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War
• 1918-1922 Russian Civil War
  • 1918 Petsamo expedition
  • 1918 Viena expedition
  • 1918-1919 Polar Bear Expedition
  • 1919 Aunus expedition
  • 1921-1922 East Karelian Rising by Karelian Forest Guerrillas
• 1918-1919 Polish-Ukrainian War
• 1918-1919 Great Poland Uprising
• 1919 Czechoslovak-Polish war
• 1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
• 1919 First Silesian Uprising
• 1919-1921 Polish-Soviet war
• 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence
• 1919-1922 Turkish War of Independence
  • 1920-1922 Second Greco-Turkish War (aka War in Asia Minor)
  • 1920 Turkish-Armenian War

While it is certainly fine to keep track of this I wonder if it's really appropriate for this page. When people come to this page they will clearly be looking for veterans with some sort of affiliation to World War I - not the First Silesian Uprising. If this becomes costumary the "Surviving Veterans of World War I" in year 2015 will contain the names of a bunch of World War I era Veterans - and no actual World War I veterans. That's arbitrary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gardar Rurak (talk • contribs) 08:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Many of those conflicts listed above are intricately linked with World War I, some clearly aren't. The Mexican Revolution, the Xinhai Revolution and the Basmachi Revolt clearly aren't closely tied in to the goings on with World War I. Although the Basmachi Revolt may have started due to the fact the Russians were tied up fighting World War I - the conflict (or ongoing low-level insurrection), clearly wasn't impacted in any way by what was going on in World War I - though many of the other conflicts you mentioned did resolve themselves soon after World War I concluded - precisely because of the resolution of World War I, indicating how closely the nature of their conflict was tied to World War I. It's a good argument to have, but I would argue that conflicts that started and ended based around factors relating to World War I - that are closely tied to World War, I like that - have a fair argument to be called World War I-era in relation to a page relating to World War I itself. The three I listed above clearly don't fit that brief description I believe. jkm 09:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Linked to WWI is not WWI. And again: can somebody show me a historian that counts the Finnish Civil War to WWI?

Statistician 19.02.2007 3:21 (CET)

Well, if any surviviving veterans from the WWI linked wars above up to.. say 1919, can be found - then why not include them in the WW1 era category. Or split the page into one with pure Western Front survivors, and another page with WWI era survivors? I doubt many can be found anyway, so the page doesn't risk being flooded with newcomers. In the 70s there were lots of stories of old men from the Caucasus, up to 150 years old - turned out to be fake identities, using their father's identities to avoid joining the military. But anyway, shouldn't there still be one or two Russian Eastern Front veterans out there? Can anyone who participates here read/understand Russian? (I can't) Hepcat65 15:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

And nor can I. Extremely sexy 19:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find many...if any...veterans of the above conflicts. Certainly some are not relevant and probably have no living survivors. Your point is a 'shotgun' point...throw everything out there and hope something sticks. In the Finnish Civil War, one side was being supported by Germany and the other by Russia, at the same time the main Germany-Russia conflict was going on. Let's not forget that U.S. veterans of the Mexican border conflict are listed as "WWI veterans" (like Samuel Goldberg). Let's not make hypothetical issues. We can deal with each real issue as it occurs.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 15:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Floyd Matthews articles

Greetings,

The Floyd Matthews articles clears up a mystery (who was the man who moved from Florida to Alabama?). Note also that Charley Newton Cook and Henry Abram died in Dec 2003, not Dec 2005 as the article states (check the SSDI). One more thing, the article says there are just "10" WWI veterans left in the USA...this from a man who definitely knows the difference between WWI and WWI-era. So, I wonder if there are three more cases out there we either don't know about, or perhaps it is someone like Robley Rex that despite all the excoriation, no one has yet produced any draft or join-date documents for.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 15:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed so, and I posted them, so say "thank you, Bart". Extremely sexy 15:06, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Lloyd Clemett: oldest Canadian WWI veteran dies

Obituary: Lloyd Clemett, 107 Canadian Press/ Toronto Globe & Mail

TORONTO — Lloyd Clemett was the youngest of a band of brothers to heed the call to battle and sign up to fight in the trenches of the First World War.

The enthusiastic teen set his sights on the battlefields of France, but three older enlisted siblings, his young age and fate ensured his safe return to Toronto when peace was declared on Nov. 11, 1918.

Late Wednesday, Mr. Clemett died in the city where he was born, raised a family and lived for more than a century. He was 107.

His death leaves only two known surviving Canadian veterans of the First World War.

Lloyd Clemett joined the army as a private in the 109th Battalion. The army made him a bugle boy when he enlisted for the First World War in January, 1916.

“It was something you had to do, so you went and you did it” was the explanation he offered when asked why he went to war, his son, David Clemett, said in an interview.

“It's really something that he never elaborated on, he never talked about when I was growing up. It was just a fact, that at some point in time he was in the First World War.”

The only indication that his father had served in the conflict was a brass-bound war chest containing his service uniform, tucked away in the basement of the family home in north Toronto. It was only in recent years that Mr. Clemett shared his war stories with his family.

Like so many others anxious to join their countrymen in the trenches of France, Mr. Clemett told the army he was 18 – the official enlistment age – when he signed his papers in January, 1916.

“He went when he was 16, he got sent over to England and was working with the lumber group over there, doing timber,” said his niece, Merle Kaczanowski. “It was at the very last, when they needed more people, he actually did get shipped over to France.”

Ten per cent of the roughly 600,000 Canadians who enlisted to fight in the war died on the battlefields of Europe, and 170,000 more were wounded.

The war would ultimately claim 15 million civilian and military lives on both sides of the conflict.

Although Mr. Clemett's true age was discovered in England, his older brothers also did their best to ensure that their younger sibling was kept out of harm's way.

“His brothers intervened. They said, 'No, no, Lloyd stays with us, he's not going anywhere,' ” his son said. “I think that's how he ended up in the forestry division.”

When his division was shipped to Aubin St. Vast, France, Mr. Clemett volunteered several times for the front line. The sound of artillery fire in the distance only fuelled his company's desire for combat.

“That made them that much more compelled to go to the front,” said his son.

One month before his 19th birthday, Mr. Clemett received orders to join the others at the front, but fate intervened.

“The day that the Armistice was signed was the day his battalion was supposed to go to the front lines,” David Clemett said.

“Disappointed” at having never seen action in the war, Mr. Clemett returned home and took a job as a railway agent.

A life-long hockey fan, Mr. Clemett played for the Brampton Maple Leafs in the 1920s and also coached a woman's softball team.

He opened a lawnmower repair business and kept it afloat during the Great Depression, married his wife, Catherine, in 1936, and raised two sons in Toronto.

Mr. Clemett finished out his working years as a meter reader and repairman before retiring in 1965.

When his wife died in 1993, Mr. Clemett continued living alone, in their Millwood Road home.

“He was in pretty good physical shape up until about the age of 103,” David said.

“He'd whittle baskets out of peach stones. He'd read a western paperback book every day, bake his own cookies, muffins and bread.”

Failing vision and hearing led Mr. Clemett to move in 2003 into the veteran's residence at Toronto's Sunnybrook and Women's Hospital, where he lived out his remaining years.

Oregon Loses Its Last WW1 Veteran

Oregon loses its last living World War I veteran By Frank Lenzi/Portland Bee

AM 860 KPAM, Feb 23, 2007, Updated 1.9 hours ago

He was proud of his service, but Howard Ramsey hated war. Oregon’s last living World War I veteran has died. He was 108.

Ramsey, America’s oldest known combat veteran, served in France. Dale Potts, commander of the Veterans of Foreign Wars post in Tualatin said Ramsey was shaped by his duty during World War I.

“He said ‘nobody should have to go through that hell,’” Potts said.

Ramsey’s job during the war included driving officers up to the frontline and bringing the bodies of dead soldiers back. Ironically, Potts said that the military initially would not let Ramsey join the war effort.

“He didn’t weigh enough,” Potts said. “So he and a buddy, they ate bananas and drank water for a couple days and they went back again and enlisted and…he weighed enough and they took him in.”

Potts said Ramsey could see the humor in almost any situation.

“You couldn’t go away without feeling good about yourself after you talked to him. He was just a great, wonderful guy,” Potts said.

Potts is in the process of planning a funeral service for Ramsey, with veterans from all wars represented.

“I mean he’ll be looking down at us, and the bigger send-off, the better.” —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redpepper1952 (talk • contribs) 05:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

Notice this is the last Oregon World War 1 veteran - mentioned in almost every news report. Surely this is confirmation that Jim Lincoln, already not verified in terms of age, military career or in fact ANY verifiable info at all, just shouldn't be on the list at all. I agree that we should be careful not to delete people for the sake of deleting, but in absolute truth, has ANYONE got ANY proof that Lincoln is: a) 108 b) A world war veteran c) telling the truth about anything?

I really don't think we should have him on the list. At least William Olin's age is verified. I can't think of one single good reason why Lincoln should be there, sorry

One, the case hasn't been investigated yet, that's reason enough. You don't execute a killer without a trial first, even if you know they did it. Two, none of these news stories has any clue what they are talking about or any good references in them. Claims that there were '50' US WWI vets is just one example.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 02:54, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I would use caution about zapping Olin/Lincoln from the list. True, the news reports state Ramsey was Oregon's last WWI veteran, but what about Florida? When Mr. Pusey died in Nov. news reports came out stating he was Florida's last WWI vet. Then Mr. Landis was found. 63.3.7.129 19:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

Babcock and Landis

Apparently John Babcock and Harry Landis have also died => http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=2&aid=118907.

To the poster who states "apparently John Babcock and Harry Landis have also died". Nonsense! You base that assumption on a reporter's list that for whatever reason omittes their names, naming only 4 WW1 U.S. Veterans. Better check the facts and information more closely for reliable proof! P.S. I did.. checking the Spokane newspapers. No mention that John Babcock died and the same for Harry Landis. Premature at best. User:Redpepper1952 9:18 27 Febuary, 2007.

Well, Babcock was Canadian, so he wouldn't be listed. Any word on Landis? Czolgolz 20:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Chances are he is still alive, because he isn't on any official list, hence. Extremely sexy 01:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a reporter's list, NOT a reliable source.

Here is a more reliable source:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/02/08/oldest_world_war_i_veteran_in_massachusetts_dies/

Jim Benson of the federal Veterans Administration Department of Veterans' Affairs, said Pierro's death leaves only seven World War I veterans on VA rolls nationwide. He said there may be three or four additional veterans not on the rolls, adding it is difficult to know with any certainty.

Note that 7-1 (death of Howard Ramsey) equals six.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:16, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

In truth, the U.S. wouldn't count Babcock who served with Canadian forces. I wonder if they count Robley Rex or someone we don't know about.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I received an autograph from Mr. Landis in the mail postmarked 2-23-07. He was alive several days ago. Sadly though, if your lucky (as most would think) to live to be 108 or so, the odds of being well one week, and what you will be doing this time next year is up in the air. This note was to just let you know he was alive several days ago. I know Jim Benson will not tell us the names, but is he counting the U.S. Vets. with the same cut off date and such? 63.3.7.1 04:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC) (PershinBoy)

Raymond Guay and the last anonymous French veteran

Greetings,

One of the two anonymous French veterans was revealed as Raymond Guay (Apr 17 1900-Jan 2 2007). It has been reported that the last anonymous French veteran is 'almost 108', indicating birth in 1899.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Charles Brunier has died

Morning All

There is a fair amount of web-chatter in French regarding the death of Charles Brunier at the start of February, for instance there is an obituary at: http://chezmartine.canalblog.com/archives/2007/02/06/3918105.html dated 6th Feb. I have moved him to the 2007 deaths page. Thanks SRwiki 08:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC) Using my schoolboy level French I have been able to narrow the date to somewhere between 1st and 4th of Feb - can anyone narrow the date down any further? SRwiki 08:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey there

I just found http://www2.leparisien.com/search/resultat.html in french. It shows that the 29. January 2007, date of the news, Charles Burnier went to pass away very soon ago... so in good faith, it seems that he died at the end of the month of January.

Sincerily [[user:Paris75000]] 10:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Merci SRwiki 10:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It says "last Friday", so that's January 26th, and I just corrected it accordingly as well. Extremely sexy 12:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the French Wikipedia, he died Jan 26 2007 => http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Brunier.

→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 03:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm still awaiting the standing ovation I deserve for this, people. Extremely sexy 22:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Stanisław Soliński has died

I'm Polish. Yesterday I wrote an e-mail to http://www.chorkowka.ugm.pl/, where Draganowa is. They wrote me back that Stanisław Soliński has died in Draganowa on December 6th, 2004.

Thank you very much indeed, dear colleague. Extremely sexy 15:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if Robert Young will accept this as proof or not. I don't expect he will apologise to all those he insulted simply because a)they said he was long dead b) he didn't find it out for himself first.

Anyway, thanks again to the Polish contributor for this, and we avoided the potential fiasco of having a dead veteran being "one of the last living" veterans. But as Solinski has twice been removed, and then twice added again, we will wait & see...(unsigned comment)

First of all, thanks to the Polish contributor for finally 'laying Solinski to rest,' metaphorically, if not in reality.

After all this, it turns out I WAS RIGHT...SOLINSKI DID NOT DIE IN 2005. I await the apologies of those who were wrong, but insisted on adding him to '2005' with NO citation and no one even saying that they knew he died.

Second, whoever wrote the unsigned comment...your ignorance is devastating. What do you think LIMBO means? It means we don't know someone is alive, but we don't have a death date. WOW. I never said that Solinski was ALIVE...I said that we don't have a death date, and no one who deleted his entry ever said he died, they only said they 'assumed' he was dead because there was no 105th birthday story. There is an old saying "ASSumptions make ASSES of us all."

If you stopped one moment to realize what I was saying, there would have been no dispute.→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 21:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Stanislaw Solinski has returned, but it was the same person who added Boris Efimov and Matthew Engh this time...(not me).→ R Young {^yakł_talk} 21:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Great, so he is a ghost who can't find eternal rest before having killed our anonymous contributor. Extremely sexy 22:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Unverified cases section

What happened to that section? The American and British sections have been erased. If someone could please fix if that would be great. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.191.145.24 (talk) 07:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

I tried, but I made an almighty pigs ear of it. It needs the attention of some-one a bit more IT literate than me. SRwiki 08:19, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

So I will fix this as well now. Extremely sexy 11:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There is still a problem with the listings. Engh, Matthew seems to have resurfaced again, though not formatted properly. Are we still to believe that this is the work of someone playing games, or is this a legit addition by one of the regular posters? Someone who knows more about how to change this, should format it correctly or delete it if need be. --Brianmccollum 20:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, someone must have been updating the page while I looked at it. Is there any substance to this veteran claim, as his name popped up on here a few months back if you all recall. --Brianmccollum 20:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all in fact then. Extremely sexy 22:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Boris Efimov

Hmm, I'm not sure about this case, having googled his name I can find nothing to support World War I service, to quote from his Wiki bio:

"During the First World War, his family fled the advancing German armies and returned to Kiev, where he pursued legal studies, only to be interrupted by the October Revolution and subsequent turmoil. He began to express his emotions through caricatures of politicians, the first of which were published in 1919 and circulated in the Kievian Red Army." There is a big difference between fought with his family and fled with his family

Another quote from a Russian biography (http://www.peoples.ru/art/painter/efimov_b/): "Boris returned to Kiev, completed training in real school, and in 1917 enrolled at the Kiev Institute of National Economy. But completing there for a year, he moved to the Faculty of the University of Kiev.

In interviews with the man himself he makes no mention of his possible war service.

I also don't think that the war service of such a notable person would have gone unnoticed all this time.

In short: he makes no claim, and no biography of him makes a claim either.

Thoughts anyone? SRwiki 08:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't seem like a Great War vet to me. Czolgolz 12:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts as well. Extremely sexy 13:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The same guy who added Matthew Engh has also added Boris Efimov to the Veterans list. At best, Boris Efimov may be in the WWI Era Category, but nothing any of us has come across seem to indicate any veteran status at all. Why would someone add two people to this list without any type of citation? What else has this guy changed? --Brianmccollum 21:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

This guy doesn't seem to realize he doesn't have to retype the whole article over each time. Czolgolz 21:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

He is incorrect anyway. Extremely sexy 22:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Gladys Powers war service

Just a little snippet: http://www.abbotsfordtimes.com/issues06/052106/news/052106nn1.html. If someone could do me a favour and turn it into a reference on the main page, I would be very grateful. SRwiki 08:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Then I will try to do just that. Extremely sexy 11:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. SRwiki 14:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I did it, and it's my pleasure. Extremely sexy 14:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)