Talk:Saint Peter

Funny, but inappropriate

"If God is a DJ, and Heaven's a dance floor, St. Peter would be the bouncer."

This article shows a Protestant Bias

Maybe there should be two articles. One with all the nonsense in this article and one about the real St. Peter.

Please elucidate. I am baffled by how little we know of Peter, who was appointed by Christ to lead the movement in comparison to Paul, who was not. ThePeg 21:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Peter couldn't have been Catholic... wasn't the Church founded after the great schism of the 11th century? I know the Catholics claim he is, but... it doesn't make sense to me. The Person Who Is Strange 00:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah...no that's just wrong. The Catholic Church was founded at the Pentacost when the Holy Spirit descended upon his Apostles.

Some Changes Explained

I made various changes to the section on the New Testament in this article about St. Peter. Besides nominal changes, I attempted to add more information and additional scholarly opinions in an attempt to present a more informative and balanced article in keeping with the project goals. In each instance I attempted to provide quotes for support. Furthermore I preserved the original opinions for comparison, with one notable exception. The article contained the following quote and then explanatory text:

Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a normal or chronological narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictional into the statements. —Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.14–16

If this tradition were to prove to be true, then this would imply that many of the stories about Peter in the New Testament were not likely to be true, since such stories, particularly the paean to Peter in Matthew, if genuine would be expected to have been included by Mark. The attribution of the Gospels of Matthew and of Mark to their traditional authors is disputed among scholars for many reasons, the most obvious being that the gospels themselves are anonymous, and their titular attributions are not attested earlier than the second-century writings of Papias.

I found the explanatory text to be worthy of removal for the following reasons. (1) The quote clearly says that Mark knew Peter, so it does not follow that “if proved true it would imply many stores in the New Testament were not likely to be true”. Indeed the opposite follows. (2) The discussion of Matthew was out of place and seems rather irrelevant, though I would encourage a better section and discussion on Matthew given its proper due. (3) The mention of paean was vague and the link referenced Homer, not Matthew.

Strange Passage

I found this passage to be a bit out of place:

From the early Christian writings, it is clear that Peter was considered chief leader of the early community. Most of the gospels suggest that he was favored by Jesus. Although, since Peter does not reappear in Matthew's gospel after his denial of Jesus, a few scholars have suggested that for Matthew, Peter was an apostate. Perhaps the mystery is solved by the fact that Jesus appeared to Peter and charged him to return.

I did not edit it, but it seems odd on two accounts: (1) the scholars with this view are not referenced, and (2) the "mystery" is not well explained. It doesn't seem very "mysterious" at all. A "few scholars" have presented a view where a particular interpretation of Matthew is placed in contradiction with Acts and John (and all ancient authorities) - there is no way to "solve" this other than to either reject the interpretation or to agree with it.

Pope from the Greek?

If you actually go back to the origanel language,of the New Testament, Koine Greek (of which if you are interested in learning, the new Interlinear by Wallace is great), you will see that through context and Greek exegesis, Mathew 16:18 cannot be misconstrued to mean that Peter is the first pope. I thought that this would add more info on the subject, but I wanted to post it here before I went ahead and put it on the front page as it can be quite a controversial topic... In order to resolve this question we need to look at two key words in the original Greek: The word “Peter” and the word “rock.” In the original language the text reads: “You are Petros, and on this petra I will build my church.” Notice how Jesus distinguished between Petros (Peter’s name in the Greek, which means “stone” or “pebble”) and petra (the Greek word for “rock” or “boulder”). For Jesus to have avoided any confusion all He needed to do was to simply use the word “Petros” twice. In this way, He would have clearly demonstrated that the church would be built upon Peter. However, as we have seen, He used a different word — namely, “petra” — to make it absolutely clear that He was referring to the foundation of the church. The context of the passage (which, by the way, begins in verse 13) attests to a play, by Jesus, on these two words. In fact, interestingly enough, He used “petra” (or “rock”) to refer to Peter’s confession — that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Thus, Jesus (not Peter) is said to be the rock upon which the church would be established.

Peter himself underscores this fact in Acts 4:11 and 1 Peter 2:4-8, when he alludes to Christ as a “stone rejected by builders” and as a “rock that makes unbelievers fall.” Furthermore, the apostle Paul calls Jesus the foundation (1 Cor. 3:11), the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20), and the spiritual rock (1 Cor. 10:4) of the church. And so, in light of this we must conclude that the Bible does not support the idea of Peter being the first pope. Ego Eime

Not True. Paul does not say "of the church" as you have stated. If you're going to quote from scripture, let's not add to what the scripture actually says.

• Let us come to the point. Is Jesus the 'chief cornerstone' and precious, mentioned by Simon Peter and the Apostle Paul? Or is it Peter? Peter would thus be preaching about himself, as the 'stone of stumbling' and the 'rock of offense', the chief cornerstone rejected by the builders, and He is precious in our sight. Then the Apostle Paul would have been preaching Peter as the Christ, instead of Jesus. Who is the Stone made without hands, that will crush the empire of the latter days? Is it Jesus or Peter? I am almost afraid to say these words, lest it might cause anyone to stumble. So, think well before you answer. Who is the head of the Christian Church, described by Paul in the letter to the Colossians? If you think it is Peter, tell that to Jesus when you see Him. Simon Peter was a humble servant of God himself, and never would have made this claim. How could Peter have been the first Pope, when there wasn't any Pope or 'papa' for several centuries after the apostles? Jesus Himself said, "Call no man Father; for you have one Father in Heaven, and you are all brothers" (Matthew, I believe). All the blessed saints are brothers; the Pope is not my dad. When Jesus said, "Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name" (again, Matthew, I believe); He was praying to God, not to the Pope.
• James was the first bishop, or 'overseer' of the Jewish Christian Church, which began in Jerusalem! The Romans as a nation were pagans, for centuries afterward. Get your facts and your theology straight, that it might benefit your soul and your clarity of thinking. 129.24.93.219 00:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC) (Nov.)

• * In Scripture Jesus is represented as the foundation (1 Cor 3:11), the builder (Mt 16:18), the cornerstone (Acts 4:11), and the temple (Rev 21:22). We also see the apostles and/or believers as: builders (1 Cor 3:10), foundations (Eph 2:20; Rev 21:14), stones (1 Pet 2:4), buildings (1 Cor 3:9), and temples (Eph 2:21). In 1 Timothy 3:15 the Church is the foundation (of the truth). If we are allowed to speak only of Jesus as rock and foundation, we will have to cut several verses out of the Bible.

Could someone tell us what the Koine Greek is which is translated as 'Church'? Tyndale translates it as 'Congregation. I think this is significant as this passage is often cited as justification for the existence of an organised, hierarchial religion. ThePeg 21:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

ekklesia. Literally a "called out assembly of citizens". Fasinating stuff. Grover cleveland 23:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

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Moved from the main page:

Not true. Peter was never Bishop of Rome. Paul ordained Linus the first bishop in Rome, and the second, Anacletus; Peter ordained the third, Clement, as bishop. Clement became bishop in Rome several years after Peter's death, in a period when a bishop ordained by Paul was in place, so there isn't a case here for some kind of 'direct succession' as claimed by Rome. Bishops, the leaders in the Church, comes from the Greek 'episkopi', overseers. In the Orthodox Church now, as it was then, no bishop is superior to any other in the Church.

Any documentation as to which scholars or religious groups espouse this particular history? As to whether any bishop is superior to any other, it's clear that at the very least some bishops in the Orthodox Church today are given greater honor than others. That's why some are called 'bishops' and some are called 'archbishops', some are called 'metropolitans' and some are called 'patriarchs'. Each has different appropriate forms of address, and so on. I don't know the full history of this modern practice, but am sure it's quite old; archbishops go way back. That's quite different from anything approaching infallibility, but the idea of greater and lesser honor is certainly there at the very least. Wesley

And your sources for these claims are ...???

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I doubt whether the fact that Peter was bishop of Antioch and Rome is mentioned in the Bible. Does anybody have references? Clearly biblical is the fact that he was one of the most important disciples. -- David, 2 January 2003.

No, Peter's bishoprics are recorded separately, not in the Bible. But speaking of Antioch, he is listed at List of Patriarchs of Antioch, and according to that he was succeeded there by Euodius. The article should probably specify that he was succeeded by Linus at Rome, and by Euodius at Antioch. Suggestions for how best to do this without messing up the List of Popes template too badly? Wesley 16:47, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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I don't like the table at the beginning. It frightens me. Would someone move it to the template namespace? --denny vrandečić 08:53, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

It doesn't frighten me, but it is misleading as it presents a Roman Catholic viewpoint as that of all Christians. Few Protestants would "venerate" Saint Peter. Honor, yes. And few Protestants would attribute any current powers to his sainthood. (No, I didn't move it; I'm just thinking out loud.) Pollinator 12:12, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

Uhm, I didn't actually mean the content, but the table itself... it looks frightenly complex for a newbie if he wants to edit the page. Did it myself now. --denny vrandečić 11:14, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)

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Few Protestants deny that Clement, and the later popes, were legitament episcopal successors to Peter as bishops of Rome. What Protestants deny is that there is any special authority that was also passed on. In other words popes are nothing more than pastors entrusted to shepherd the Church of Rome.

Also I removed a sentence about Eusebius considering the 2nd letter of Peter as spurious. He did not. He listed it among the disputed books as are many other books found in today's canon. I'm not sure if the other information in that section is accurate either. -- Ye110man 18:29, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I assume you go with the interpretation of McGiffert and Richardson for rejecting the "spurious" interpretation of the term νόθοι describing the rejected letters (Eusebius, Church History, XXV.3-4), The translator's note below: "then, in this passage, must not be taken, as it commonly is, to mean spurious or unauthentic, but to mean uncanonical"

Given the common use, and the regular translation here of this passage, I would suggest that it at the very least can be taken to mean "spurious" --65.120.153.129 19:35, 16 May 2005 (UTC) (eleuthero--can't log in from here)

For NPOV, shouldn't the section on Roman Catholic views of St. Peter have the counterview of Protestants? Something like "Protestants, of course, do not find any scriptural basis for the office of Pope and find no evidence that Saint Peter was regarded as a Pope-like steward of the church during his lifetime." --Jeffrey Henning 03:03, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Or how about "do not acknowledge the evidence..."

• "If you actually go back to the origanel [sic] language,of the New Testament, Koine Greek"

The original language of the New Testament may have been Koiné Greek, but the conversation in Matthew most likely took place in Aramaic, not Greek. Aramaic did not distinguish Kephas the name from kephas "a stone." (Similarly, French uses Pierre for both.) It's also my understanding that Koiné Greek, unlike Attic Greek, made no distinction in meaning between Petros and petra, using both words to mean a rock or stone. Petros was required in the context because it was masculine gender, but otherwise the significance was nonexistent.

Article title: NPOV?

This title is based on Saint worship, isn't it? It should be changed to Simon Peter. Rantaro 02:24, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

While I wouldn't say "saint worship", but rather "saint veneration", I would personally have no objection to a more "neutral" name. That could be Simon Peter, Cephas, or probably a large number of other things. We could also move the "Saint Peter" template down to the "Catholic views of Peter" section—although many Protestants call him "Saint Peter", few would say that they venerate him. (The Wikipedia Saints project actually recommends that the template go in the "Veneration" section, not in the introduction or life sections, provided there is enough material to do so.) -- Mpolo 07:18, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

But all the Christians don't say "Saint Peter". I am a Christian but I don't say him "Saint Peter". He is only "Simon Peter" or "Apostle Peter". Precisely, this encyclopedia isn't only for saint venerators of Catholics and Protestants. Then, this is POV. Rantaro 01:11, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Saint worship? Hardly! That's like saying that calling Karol Józef Wojtyła Pope John-Paul is Pope worship or calling Elizabeth Windsor Queen Elizabeth is Queen worship. Most of us non-saint venerators (and non-God venerators for that matter) are quite happy to use the names Saint Peter or Santa Claus without worrying that the rest of the world is going to think that we've taken up religion! We don't see it as some POV religious statement -- just as use of the most commonly recognised name. And when it comes to a page like List of saints, how do you propose to make it work without using the word "saint" ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:07, 2004 Sep 10 (UTC)

I think the problem here comes more from divisions within Christianity than from outside it. For some Protestants, it is offensive to call someone a "saint" other than in the plural: "I am suffering here for all the saints" (St. Paul, paraphrased). As such, to respect their views, I would have no problem at all with changing the title to Simon Peter, Peter the Apostle, Simon of Bethsaida or the like. "Saint Peter" would be mentioned in the first paragraph, as it is common usage for all Catholics and a good number of Protestants. I'm going to go ahead and move the template down lower in the article. It could be that we want it in a slightly different spot in the end, but it's very little effort and makes the article less "Catholic-centered". -- Mpolo 07:19, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, Mpolo, I have no particular objection to moving the article in principle. I was merely responding to the original statement that "This title is based on Saint worship, isn't it ?" which required a clarifying response. -- Derek Ross | Talk

Well, I don't know that I disagree, exactly, but are there any general naming policies involved here? I don't think we should move this without seeing what the general policy is supposed to be. john k 14:44, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints. It's not binding, but seems to suggest "Saint" in the title is only when it's the only real way of differentiating, like Saint Lawrence. -- Mpolo 15:27, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Also, I found this in Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/archive1:

Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump on Thursday, July 10th, 02003.

Is there any kind of rule about whether "Saint" is abbreviated in article titles? —Paul A 05:44 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Saint" is not abbreviated is article titles about individual saints (Saint George, Saint Nicholas), however it may be abbreviated in names of building, etc. when this is common practice (St. David's Cathedral, but Cathedral of Saint Stephan). Furthermore, the title "Saint" is avoided in article titles when possible (John the Baptist, Martin of Tours) - Efghij

In many cases however it is impossible to use a saint's name without using saint because they are identified exclusively with it and unrecognisable without it. (BTW there are a few people who insist on changing the names of buildings from St. to Saint, even though that should not be done. Can we put a wikicurse on these people? :-) FearÉIREANN 17:57 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

-- Mpolo 16:46, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...I can agree, in general, with the idea that it should only be used when it's the only way of differentiating, as Saint Lawrence, Saint George, Saint Paul. But Peter's an interesting case. Certainly we could use Simon Peter. On the other hand, he's almost certainly better known as "Saint Peter" than as "Simon Peter", so general wikipedia naming policy would suggest the former. Anyway, I won't fight particularly hard if the consensus is to move to Simon Peter. But I would suggest that we shouldn't move articles where "Saint" is the only way to distinguish, because it might offend certain sects of Protestants. john k 00:23, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As an atheist in a pseudo-secular Anglican country (the UK), I had never ever heard the term "Simon Peter" before it was suggested above. I'd suggest that quite a few people would also be in a similar situation. Wikipedia naming policy is to give a topic the most commonly used name; exceptions are granted for names which are biased or offensive in some way, but the sub-text there is that there is at least one widely-known alternative name - is that the case here?

James F. (talk) 03:57, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think Saint Peter is not his Biblical name and true name, and it's only a name used by Catholic and Protestant churches, but I think Simon Peter is not only for Catholic and Protestant churches. If Saint Peter is widerly-known name for Catholic & Protestant churches, it is not used by other religion that Simon Peter is not a Saint. Then I think its name is POV.Rantaro 04:39, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Saint Paul is essentially a disambiguation page. The actual article is at Paul of Tarsus. Saint Joseph is found at Joseph the Betrothed—I have no idea who uses this term normally. I suspect it was coined by a Wikipedian and allowed to stand. (The talk page has one objection to the naming and no other commentary.) Saint James, the brother of the Lord, is found at James the Just, which is not a name I was familiar with, but maybe that's common outside of the Catholic church, where the liturgy (still) conflates him with James the Less.

If Simon Peter is not that well-known as a name, what about Peter the Apostle, with redirects from Saint Peter, Cephas, Kephas and Simon Peter? -- Mpolo 07:20, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:naming conventions:

"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

If "Saint Peter" meets these requirement, then it should remain "Saint Peter." Otherwise, simply "Peter" is an obvious alternative, in keeping with the handling of many Biblical names. (Of course the existing disambiguation page there would need to be moved to "Peter (disambiguation)"--Johnstone 00:41, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Some meaningless Google statistics:

"Saint Peter" 528,000 hits

"Simon Peter" 75,400 hits

"Cephas" 78,300 hits

"Peter the Apostle" 14,500 hits

"Apostle Peter" 53,200 hits

Those come out pretty strongly in favor of "Saint Peter" as the common name. Obviously, Rantaro can rightfully say that all those pages are POV, but it does appear to be by far the most common usage. Nonetheless, I wouldn't object to Peter or Peter (Bible) or Peter (apostle), either.—Mpolo 07:18, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

This is inconclusive, though. Many Protestants will simply refer to him as "Peter". Some additional data:

Peter; + apostle OR disciple; -saint 262,000 hits

the same, -"saint Peter" 311,000 hits

Peter + Jesus; -"Saint Peter" -"Simon Peter" 2,980,000 hits

(That last one is because I figured probably it if it also mentions Jesus, then it's thinking of the same Peter we are looking at.) [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 18:34, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There are also 2,460,000 Google results for "St Peter", which is just a contraction of "Saint Peter". (Also, "Peter" alone would only be used in context. You couldn't just ask someone in the street "What do you know about Peter?" and expect them to know who you were talking about, unlike, say Noah, Moses, Abraham or Jesus.) Proteus (Talk) 21:15, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If Peter is in line with other saints and if there are redirects from Saint Peter, Simon Peter etc what's the struggle? Wetman 07:25, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that it doesn't meet the criteria of being the "what majority of English speakers would most easily recognize with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity." Also, after thinking about it some more, although Old Testament figures are referred to by monikers, it's not really in line with the naming of articles on other saints. And some of those that aren't, perhaps should be renamed. It all depends on meeting the aforementioned naming convention.--Johnstone 01:45, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As referance, Wiki-ja use Simon Peter instead of Saint Peter. Many people think it's POV.Rantaro 09:28, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Saint Peter seems like the best choice to me, since disambiguation is needed and it is by far the most easily recognizable disambiguation. Plenty of Christians accept the term saint in reference to the New Testament apostles even if they don't care for Roman Catholic practices in designating saints, so I don't think it should be particularly offensive. And the most basic level of recognition is in the popular folklore that has St. Peter guarding the gates of heaven, so I think this is the best choice. Nobody's being forced to believe anything about sainthood, any more than you're forced to accept Buddhist teachings by having an article titled Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama. --Michael Snow 00:00, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Non-canonical" Gospel of Thomas

"Non-canonical" is a distracting irrelevance inserted by User:Josh Cherry. The concept of a Biblical canon is an anachronism when discussing Peter or any 1st-century or 2nd-century figure. It is also a POV value judgment arrived at in the 4th century, and as tiresome to the neutral reader as always having to read "the tacky Gospel of Thomas." The upfront agenda in this unwarranted intrusion poooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo is merely to denigrate the Gospel of Thomas. It has no genuine other motivation, and nothing to do with the subject, Peter. We don't all want to be bullied by Catholics. I haven't reverted it, as reverting has become a degraded technique at Wikipedia. Please remove this little blot. Wetman 23:14, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is perfectly valid because it refers to an historical fact concerning a source used. Namely, there were gospels that were canon and those who were not. Earlier in the article there was a reference to a synoptic gospel. I also have no problem with the use of Saint in the article title because that title (Saint) was given to Peter, independent of whether I I believe it is deserved or not. You can refer to historical facts and remain NPOV. RichBlinne 20:58, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:27, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whether the category is kept or not, Peter is not a Bible story. I'm confused about why it would be appropriate to list this article in that category. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 21:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removing the Papal box

Thoughts on removing the papal box? It screws up the layout, all of the information is available in the text and in the Saint box, and the pope and patriarch succession boxes at the bottom even allow you to navigate through the order. I do like the image and will move that into the main text, but I think the box itself is just too much. If there are no objections, I'll remove it in a day or two. --MikeJ9919 17:38, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm neutral on the issue but I thought I should explain that there are a group of people who have taken up the project of adding the papal boxes to all the articles on people who have held the title of Pope in the Roman Catholic tradition. They have begun at Pope Benedict XVI and have been working backwords until they get to all the biographies. So if you remove the papal box now, it might find itself on the article again in the future. There is debate as to whether or not the papal succession boxes will be removed when the project is completed.

If I had a gun to my head and was forced to choose which infobox to get rid of, it would be the saint box as not all the saint articles have the saint box. However, all the pope articles will have a streamlined pope box by the end of this summer.

As for NPOV questions that might come up since calling Saint Peter a pope of the Roman Catholic Church is a strictly Roman Catholic view.... I think it's safe to have as long as it's in the section of this article that details Roman Catholic views on Saint Peter.

All in all, if you must delete it I do not object. --Gerald Farinas 04:22, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, I removed the Saint box and moved the Christianity box. I think the page looks a lot better now. I'll try to incorporate the Saint box information into the text next. --MikeJ9919 19:04, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Templatename

Template:Saint Peter has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion#Saint Peter. Thank you. MikeJ9919 19:16, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Peter and Cephas

Quoth the article:

In the same Holy Scriptures, Saint Paul refers to Saint Peter as Cephas or Kephas, an Aramaic equivalent of the name Peter.

Does this mean that Kephas is Aramaic for "rock" or "piece of rock"? --Jfruh 17:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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"kepha" or "kefa," referring to a small transparent green stone used for divination. is it true? --Melaen 8 July 2005 16:54 (UTC)

Simon Peter

I put Peter back into the Born-again Christians category because he was a born-again Christian. If you read John 3, you will see that Jesus said to have eternal life it was necessary to become "born again". Peter was a follower of Jesus and he followed His commandments and became one of the leading evangelists for Jesus after Jesus left Earth. That means Peter followed what Jesus taught, and became born again.

If we are going to remove him from this category, then we need to remove all of the Roman Catholic beliefs about him (that he was the first pope, etc.), because I dispute those beliefs. If this article is only to support a Roman Catholic Peter, PLEASE let me know so I can create a Simon Peter article to have the truth about him told. I though encyclopedias were supposed to be true...also, I thought Wikipedia had a NPOV, that would mean that we have to include him in the Born-again Christians category or it is not neutral...it is only Roman Catholic. --phatcat68 12:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to revert you again, but the simple fact is that the term Born-again Christian does not have the meaning you assign to it in common usage. I'd like to see someone other than you supporting the application of this categoy to this article. -Aranel ("Sarah") 21:40, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

There is no evidence, whether Biblical or extraBiblical, that Peter was "born-again" in the sense that it is used today, your statement that Peter "was a follower of Jesus..." as evidence of Peter's "born-again" status, notwithstanding. The overwhelming scholarship on Peter is consistent with Roman Catholic Tradition. It's a shame that religious bias would show itself in what is supposed to be a neutral document.

• I'm sorry to 'hear' you say that: if it were true that Simon Peter was not 'born again', then he wouldn't be in Heaven right now. Jesus said, "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven". (John 3:3) 129.24.93.219 00:03, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Well then, let's add a category People Who Are Now in Heaven! Then we could add a category People Who Are In Purgatory and then we can debate whether Purgatory exists. Please. Bds yahoo 18:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Longest serving Popes

I have written the section on Popes under Coincidences by treating Peter as the longest serving Pope (followed by Pius IX). The pattern still stands whether or not Peter is regarded as a Pope (but second rather than third in each case).

Jackiespeel 17:01, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Mattew, not Jesus wrote the Gospel of Matthew

It wasn't Jesus who did a play on words with Petros and Petra. It was Matthew.

Furthermore, Jesus likely spoke Aramaic, NOT Greek. He would have used the word Kephas for both "Petros" and "Petra".

• But, Matthew was simply recording and reporting Jesus' words to his Jewish audience. It is not the 'Gospel of Matthew'; but the 'Gospel [of Jesus Christ] According to Matthew'. The other Gospels were the gospel story, according to someone else (three different times), but always about Jesus Christ. 129.24.93.219 00:14, 2 December 2005 (UTC) And yes, Jesus did use two different words to refer to Himself, and to refer to Simon Peter. The reason for that was for Jesus' audience to avoid the error that the Roman Catholic Church has fallen into: Jesus, not Simon Peter, is the 'chief cornerstone' that the builders rejected, and He, not Simon Peter, is 'precious' in our sight.

"Most scholars"

Ah, those wonderful weasel words, though here they're defending something that doesn't need defending. The article says that "most scholars" believe Jesus spoke Aramaic. Are there any scholars who don't think Jesus spoke Aramaic? ("If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me!") --Jfruh 20:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You are right, as far as I know, no-one doubts Aramaic would have been Jesus's main language. There is a debate as to how far he may have additionally spoken Greek (or Hebrew) - but that's another matter. (Although, like most of these topics, we would probably be safer putting: 'virtually all scholars, except the inevitable obscure tin-foil-hat revisionist that some Wikipedian is surely about to mention, believe that.....) Doc ^ask? 22:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Papal infobox suggestion

I'm not any flavor of Christian. I both see why you'd want to have a the papal infobox in this article and why its POV to have it there. I have a suggestion: rather than have it all up front at the very top of the article (which sort of implies that the most important thing about his is that he's the 1st pope/bishop of Rome, which many Christians would dispute), why not have it under the "Roman Catholic Church" heading? --Jfruh 13:33, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The box is POV. Was Peter ever a 'Pope'? =POV. Is this the most important thing to say about him? =POV. Was Linus in any sense an historical successor or even historical figure? At best POV (most neutral scholars (and many RC's) seriously doubt the historicity of the early papal succession). Peter's date of death is speculative. I'd prefer the box removed, it is POV and adds no information not easily found in the article (where it is easier to qualify the nature of the claims). The fact that some people might want to have it here irrelevant - it infringes on NPOV so it has to go. Puting in the RC section, I would perhaps accept, but only as a compromise if we can't get a consensus to remove it altogether.

However, to avoid an edit war, I will leave it in place for a few days - but if no response in made to my charge that it is POV, I will then remove it again. --Doc ^ask? 17:53, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Doc, to have papal boxes on all the popes recognized by the RCC except Peter also strikes me as being POV -- it's essentially saying that Peter was not a pope, and belief that he was a pope is pretty fundamental to a lot of Catholic theology about the papacy. Obviously he wasn't the pope the way Benedict XVI is the pope, but you'll concede that the apostolic succession thing is the basis of Catholic claims to papal supremecy.

I realize that this is a potentially sticky argument because Peter was an important figure to several different Christian groups who have mutually contradictory views about how and why he is important. That's why I agree that putting the papal box up top -- as if that was the most important thing about him -- is inappropriate. I don't think it would be a terrible thing to put it in the Catholic beliefs section. In fact, I'm just going to go ahead and do it -- we'll see if it sticks. --Jfruh 19:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'm willing to look for an acceptable compromise here - and your move is a very good start. But I would gently question some of your logic - you seem to accept that the box reflects a 'RC POV', yet point out the inconsistency of having it on other 'popes' and not here. I'd submit that might be an argument for removing it from the others - rather than one for putting it here. Even the historical existence of some of the other popes is questioned - yet this box proclaims a line of succession and implies historicity.

I'd prefer to omit the box altogether, but my proposed compromise (and I'm not quite sue how to do it) is to make it clear in the box that this is 'according to Roman Catholic tradition'. I think that the tradition is important enough to report (perhaps even in a box) in the RC section, as long as it is not asserting (or, equally, denying) factuality. Actually, if you want consistency, it might not be a bad idea to have such a rider in all of the papal boxes. --Doc ^ask? 22:27, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

There are several points in the nearly-2000-year papal sequence where there are disputes and POV differences over who was or wasn't a pope. There are a number of antipopes, and also cases of people who were elected pope and then died before being properly consecrated, causing disputes over whether they deserve to be listed as a pope or not. There are also some attempts to depose popes, and popes who attempted to resign, with disputes over whether such actions were legally binding at the time. Nevertheless, Wikipedia has somehow managed to get a consistent sequence of succession boxes and infoboxes for a lineage of popes, which usually (but not always) follows that which is officially endorsed by the Roman Catholic church at present (though even the official church list has changed over time). There's something appealing to my neat sense of logic to having such an unbroken sequence, but perhaps it is not historically justified. (BTW, I'm not any sort of Christian, either, but have for some reason taken on the task of putting in infoboxes on numerous pope articles, going by the sequence given in the pre-existing succession boxes.) *Dan T.* 18:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

2 Peter and Authenticity

If we could adjust the final two paragraphs here, it would appear there is a "discussion" going on between one writer who upholds doubt with another upholding confidence in the authenticity of the book. There would appear to be enough facts with minimal POV difficulty in the first few paragraphs of the section without adding in the "most liberal scholars believe" followed by "most conservative scholars believe" sniping.--eleuthero 20:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Patron Saint of Rabies?

I'm not sure if this is supposed to be there, but it says that Peter is the patron saint of Rabies. I'm not an expert, but this doesn't seem to be the sort of thing to have a saint for. I'd change it myself, but I'm not Catholic so I'm not sure what it's supposed to be replaced by. "Babies" maybe?

    ~Cyril Uberfuzz

It appears that a certain St. Hubert or maybe St. Francis might be the rabies guy, but not Peter. I've fixed this. pschemp | talk 04:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Infact more checking reveals the answer to be Hubertus. pschemp | talk 04:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Not Rabies, RABBIS! LOL 86.138.186.75 23:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

2 saint info boxes

I don't think we need two saint info boxes. which one should be deleted? Gugganij 11:28, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Dave from Australia here. I think this page is poorly structured. It doesn't make sense, it states that peter never got to rome, just babylon? but then says he was crucified in Rome? So what happened? It doesn't explain when he left the holy land to go to Rome.

Pope Peter

I'v heard that no pope has ever named themselves Pope Peter II because to do so would be seen as extremely vain and ambitious. I think this merits inclusion in the article if anyone can find a source for it. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 11:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, I don't think that sounds reasonable at all. Following that line of thinking there wouldn't be anyone ever in Catholic cultures named after previous people, saints, popes or kings, don't you think? John Paul took his name from both the apostle and the sait.--T-man, the wise 02:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically John Paul II took his name from John Paul I, who took his from John XXIII and Paul VI, the two previous popes before him, but it does all come down to the saints, mostly. The Prophecy of Saint Malachy has something about a pope called "Peter of Rome" who'll bring about Doomsday, or something like that. 222.126.76.56 23:19, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the Prophecy the second Pope Peter will be the final Pope of the Catholic Church. User:Gavin Scott

Judaism and "St Peter"?

This paragraph: "In Jewish folklore St Peter has a pristine reputation as a greatly learned and holy man who established the Sunday Sabbath for God-Fearers instead of Saturday, Noel (as a new year feast but not as Christmas) instead of Hanukkah, the Feast of the Cross instead of Rosh Hashana, Pascha instead of Pesach, remembering the feast of the Jews instead of Sukkot, and the Ascension for them instead of Shavuot. R. Judah Ha-Hassid, who led Germany's 12th-century Hasidei Ashkenaz, considered him to be a Tzaddik (a Jewish saint or spiritual Master among Hasidim)."

sounds very un-Jewish to me, a novice student at best. I can find no extensive references to R. Judah Ha-Hassid in reference to "St. Peter" that don't ultimately have their origin in Wikipedia.

It's very unlikely a Jewish figure would applaud any changes in the Torah, especially of the magnitude of substituting "the Feast of the Cross instead of Rosh Hashana..."

Can someone verify this? It sounds very off, or at the least revisionist; I am not even sure Judaism has "saints" as such.

A Tzaddik Is Not a Saint, Tzaddiks are only really a hasidic Institution, as A Jew I can Guarantee they're is NO CHANCE St. Peter is a Tzaddik. The first real observed was the Besht. Their is also no validitiy in the applause of replacing Jewish holy-days with Cristian ones. My guess is this paragraph was written by a so-called "Messianic" Jew, aka Hebraized Evangelical Christian. I hope this is deleted. -Zack

Post thought- Hasidism was founded in the 17th century I beleive, No chance there were 12th century German Hasidism, Hasidism was never even prevalent in Germany!

-Zack

I am in full agreement. I have never heard anything of this sort and after asking four rabbis (including one Rabbi Shalman, a very significant figure in Reform Judaism with a world-wide reputation) from both a Conservative synagogue and a Reform synagogue I have recieved no conformation. As such, I am going to take the initiative and delete the section. If anyone is able to provide substantial proof they can revert the deletion. Israelite9191 16:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this right?:

'was one of the twelve original disciples or apostles of Jesus'

I'm a Catholic from the Peninsula of Yucatan, Spanish is my native language, and maybe I'm wrong but, from my understanding, there were many disciples of Jesus, but the apostles were only the 12. The sentence implies that a disciple is the same as an apostle; therefore, to me, it'd make more sense written "...was a disciple and one of the twelve original apostles of Jesus'. --T-man, the wise 02:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Paul refers to himself as an apostle, and mentions others as 'apostles', indeed he speaks of the gift of 'aspostleship', so the word can be used in different ways. It can refer to the 12, but it does not have to be so limited. --Doc ^ask? 02:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at where Paul refers to himself as an apostle. He is clearly self-appointed, claiming that he does not need any "letter", or certification from the disciples. T-man is right in that there is a clear sense of apostle to mean the 12, but Paul broadened the definition somewhat, and included himself.Trishm 03:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Usage of "Saint"

I removed the stuff about Protestants believing that all Christians are saints in contrast to Catholics. Catholics believe all non-canonized Christians (at least) are "saints" too, that's what "communion of saints" in the Apostles' Creed refers to - the Church Militant (for them, at least). 203.215.120.226 10:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Shall I move Marcion to Saint Marcion then? Clinkophonist 21:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This slightly misses the point - certainly Roman Catholics also believe that all Christians are 'saints', but the relevance of mentioning this under Protestantism is that it is on the basis of the this understading of 'saint' that Protestants object to the Roman Catholic veneration of 'canonised saints'. (As for 'Saint' Marcion, well at least all Protestants and Roman Catholics agree that that heretic goes straight to hell ;) ) --Aoratos 23:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Its interesting to remember that Marcion argued that people holding the views of what is now Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are already in hell, and Valentinian emphasised this. Clinkophonist 12:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Peter in Rome??

Saint Peter buff, trying to track this down - need some help. I've added a citation request for Saint Peter going to Rome.

This assertion Peter went to Rome is based on a tradition but its cited within the article as fact. I know that many believe Peter to have gone to Rome, but faith does seem to be enough for other Wikipedia articles, and so I'm asking someone to track down evidence that Peter went to Rome.

• Certainly the early writers who documented the early Popes say nothing of his visit
• The Gospels's don't have Peter going to Rome
• Saint Paul doesn't greet Saint Peter in Rome when he writes to Rome, though he greets just about everyone else
• Saint Peter certainly wan't there when Saint Paul arrived there and greeted the Jews in Rome who claim not to have heard anything about the Gospel when Paul arrives. In fact they really wanted to hear his thoughts (Acts 28:21-22)
• We do know that Peter went to Babylon for quite some time, where he wrote his letters from (1 Peter 5:13).
• We also know that he brought the Gentile Cornelius to Christ (Acts 10:10-48)
• And we know that he headed back to Jerusalem from Babylon to attend the Countil of Jerusalem (and Paul headed back from Rome) (Acts 15:1-11)
• We also knew that Saint Peter and Saint Paul argued with each other occasionally (but this needs not be mentioned in the article)
• Other historians that document Peters travels are Metaphrastes (Cave, Antiquitates Apostolicæ), but but he doesn't have Peter going to Rome either.
• Peter writes in his own Apostolic Constitutions (Book VII Section IV) that Paul appointed the first Bishop of Rome as the Saint Linus article seems to suggest that Paul had more to do with Rome.

I've probably missed the source of this tradition somewhere. Hopefully someone can help out here by pointing to a reference. Hopefully it shouldn't be hard to find if its true. Therefore I think that Peter's journey to Rome either needs to be set as a tradition without substantiation, or cited.

Keep up the good work all you volunteers. This place is awesome!

I came to this article hoping to understand what the traditional explanation or explanations is as to how Peter went from being a leader in the Jerusalem church to being crucified in Rome. How did he end up in Rome, and how much time is he said to have spent there? As it stands now, the article says little or nothing about this and it would be very helpful if this information could be added. Sylvain1972 19:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The Mormons

I have added a section under religious interpretations about the Latter-day Saint conception of Peter. He is a major player in what they claim to be a restoration of the original Christianity through Joseph Smith, and as such this interpretation should be included. Please contact me with any problems, etc. Thank you, --Pahoran513 21:04, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This article shows a Protestant Bias

Maybe there should be two articles. One with all the nonsense in this article and one about the real St. Peter.

Splitting an article in two pieces in order to handle a possible bias is not appropriate. But you are welcome to contribute to this article. Gugganij 22:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You're right. We also need to include the fact that his corpse is beneath St. Peter's basilica in Rome. KittyHawker 06:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What...?!

"In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus prediction of Peter's denial is coupled with a prediction that all the apostles ("you", plural) would be "sifted like wheat", but that it would be Peter's task ("you", singular), when he had turned again, to strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:31-32)."

That is not correct in any way!

The text in the New King James Version: "And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon!" Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren."

Would Christ have given Peter a special prayer, for Peter and Peter only, after saying that the 11 disciples would stifle as wheat, and that Satan has asked for them? Surely not! He loves His children, would a father--a Heavenly Father, to be exact, let his children be prey to a wolf? Most assuredly not. I shall delete that sentence.

Plus, it makes no mention whether He be referring to the disciples or Peter, except for His saying, "Simon, Simon!" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.69.0.242 (talk) 10:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

The New Testament wasn't originally written in English. As such, reading the text in English loses some of the meaning, but the Greek makes it quite clear. The Greek says "Simon, Simon, idou, ho Satanas exetesato humas (this is you, plural, referring to the apostles), tou siniasai hos ton siton; Ego de edeethen peri sou (you, singular, addressing Peter), hina me eklipe he pistis sou; (your, singular again), kai su pote epistrepsas sterixon tous adelphous sou(your, singular)". If you don't understand any of the Greek, you can always read the original KJV: "And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted,strengthen thy brethren." Notice that it's you and hence plural in the first two instances, and thou, and so singular thereafter. Hence, we can see that it is the apostles who Satan has asked for, but Peter who Jesus prayed for. Unfortunately language changes since the KJV was constructed have obscured the question in the NKJV, and most other modern English translations. BovineBeast 16:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this Vandalism?

"Death

Saint Peter died by a noun with a scalp knife, whom butchered him for being a christian. Later studies found out that the noun was drunken and possesed by Hitler."

Seriously... and possessed is misspelled. XD Jaimeastorga2000 20:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Funny

I just watched the South Park episode Fantastic_Easter_Special, so I found this edit funny. Jamdonut 12:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Syrian Pope?

I saw one of the categories he is listed under is "Syrian Pope". Now I don't know so much about Christianity, but the article doesn't mention Syria, and I'm pretty sure he was from Judaea or at least the Galilee (modern day Israel). --Valley2city^₪‽ 08:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

"The wise man built his house upon the rock.."

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

In this passage, the word for rock in Greek is ‘petra’, which means a large foundation type rock. These days we use concrete foundations when we build houses.

The discussion between Jesus and Peter went like this:

Matthew 16:13–19 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus said: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church..”

The Greek word for Peter is ‘petros’, which means a small stone, one which would be used in the construction of a building, such as a church. These days we use bricks and blocks, but then they used stones.

In the phrase, “Upon this rock”, the word again is ‘petra’; a large stone foundation.

Jesus wasn’t telling Peter that he would be the foundation of His church, or that any single man would be. That would go against the principle taught in Matthew 23:8–12.

But statement: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” represents the testimony of Jesus, which is the foundation of our Lord's church. Peter would be honored as part of the building material. His writings where included in the bible, and they are a very solid testimony for us today.

Acts 8:37 ..And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. ..and he baptized him.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rush4hire 17:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

Umm, please tell me this line isn't true:

"Peter got his name after his neighbors in Jerusalem found out about his 'Milimeter Peter.' "

204.115.253.51 19:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Why are there two infoboxes? Trevor GH5 11:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)