Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America

New Rating for Havasupai Page

I just redid the whole Havasupai page and it is no longer a stub article. I am pretty new to the whole gradine standard and didnt want to grade it improperly. I just know that it is no longer a stub. If someone that it more adept to grading articles feels like grading, please do. Or you can shoot me over some info on how to grade articles and what you think this article should be graded as. But whatever happens Havasupai needs a new grade. Thanks. Josh Matthews 17:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

New page for the WikiProject template

Template:WPIPNA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Toussaint (talk • contribs) 16:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Vandalism

I worked quite a bit over the last year on the John Ross page, and find myself spending an increasing amount of time removing vandalism from the page. First, I'm wondering if other pages from the Indigenous Peoples Project are having the same problem. Two, I'm believe there is some way to keep anyone who has not logged in from making edits on a page. I don't know how to do this and am looking to hear how this can be done. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jaedglass (talk • contribs) 22:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, if you want to request the semiprotection of a page (due to frequent vandalism), you would request it at WP:RFP. However, from what I can see on the John Ross (Cherokee) history, it doesn't look like there's an unusually serious vandalism problem--any more than a lot of pages have. So I'm not sure if they'd agree to protect it or not. Anyway, that's who you'd ask (follow the instructions at the top of the WP:RFP page, if you go ahead with it) --Miskwito 01:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I looked on this page by accident today, and found some really stupid vandalism right at the top. I removed it, then I looked at the history, and it seemed there was more vandalism then I had seen on other pages. I don't know if you want to prohibit those not logged in from editing, because I'm not logged in, but I think this kind of vandalism is inexcusable, so there must be something you could do. I can understand how Jaedglass feels. He did put in a lot of work, and if I had done that and had to spend all that time removing stupid things, I'd be mad too.

I have noticed this too. It appears to me that a NY group, calling itself Upstate Citizens for Equality has taken to editing articles concerning Indigenous North Americans. As much in fact that many of these articles now point back to the article on themselves. Hexe1998 22:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Kinnikinick redirect

Currently, Kinnikinnick redirects to Bearberry but around where I live, we call the Red Osier Dogwood as "kinnikinnick" and bearberry as something that is added to the "kinnikinnick." Is this a pure regionalism or should this redirect instead go to a disambiguation page and from the disambiguation to the various uses of this word? CJLippert 23:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

List of Native American Place Names

I started this page after reading Charles C Mann's 1491. I realized that there are a few pages that deal with names for a specific area, but nothing that deals with both the North and South American continents. I know this is likely to be huge, based on existing work, so I think that it should be some kind of guide to smaller areas. It won't obviously fit on just one page, but a summary would be an intro point for going deeper into an area... Hires an editor 19:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Category:Native American tribes

I have nominated the category for renaming as Native American peoples. Please offer your comments at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_28#Category:Native_American_tribes Asarelah 03:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Native American and First Nation music

I think that we should add first nation musicians to List of Native American musicians. If we do this, do we need to change the title and/or lead paragraph? Or should there be another list? Thanks. Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

lists of lists

I've been working on List of Native American musicians for a while, and now I've gone meta, looking at List of Native Americans (for which there is an afd). I'm trying to organize that list, as well as make sublists for it. My problem right now is in terminology, is there a way we can talk about past NA leaders, I've created an article called List of Native American leaders which includes past chiefs, military leaders, medicine people, etc, but doesn't include politicians, or other historic figures such as Sequoya. My instinct is to add historic to the title of the page, but I don't know if that makes sense. I was originally going to call it list of NA historic figures, but I didn't like that either. I picked this title because it matches an existing category. Does anyone think I should change it? Also, stop by and help out with these lists if you like. There is a lot of sorting to be done, some new sublist articles to create, and each name should include some basic bio information on it (dates, tribe, notability). Thanks. Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're not including any notable modern-day tribal leaders in the list, then I'd rename it List of historical Native American leaders or something along those lines, yes. There have certainly been notable leaders recent times (e.g., Joe Byrd of the Cherokee tribe), so you might want to include them in the list too, though, rather than having to rename it --Miskwito 21:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Brothertown Indians

Would someone assess this article? I won't assess, as I am the main contributor to the article. I would appreciate an honest strengths and especially weaknesses commentary. Royalbroil ^T : C 19:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Renaming of a category

At the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Anishinaabe, we were in discussion about category merging of the two different Anishinaabe mythology categories out there, which after looking around I came across this category: Category:Algonquin-language films. Looking at what is there, it seems we again have the Algonquin/Algonquian confusion going on. Should we remove the non-Algonquin film in this category and give it a new category or shall we rename the category to Category:Algonquian-language films? Currently, there is a request to populate this category. CJLippert 01:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

My vote would be to rename it to Category:Algonquian-language films--it would be much easier to populate that way. I don't think it'll ever become a wildly large category; there aren't many films with an Algonquian language in them (let alone just Algonquin) which pass the notability threshold of Wikipedia. --Miskwito 00:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: And it seems the user who created the category in the first place doesn't mind. --Miskwito 00:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I have moved the Category:Cree-language films into the Category:Algonquian-language films. This will increase the chances of populating this category. CJLippert 04:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Alaska Natives

This is more by way of an FYI than anything, I guess. As part of an effort to improve the coverage of Alaska Natives both for this project & WP:ALASKA, yesterday I created Category:Indigenous languages of Alaska, got all relevant languages in Alaska sorted into it, created pages where needed (for example, to differentiate between "people" & "language"), added language infoboxes for almost all of them (a very few already had one), & in most cases also added info based on writeups at the Alaska Native Language Center, Yukon Native Language Centre, Ethnologue. Still a bit of clean-up to go, but I'm really pleased with what I've accomplished. Now I'm heading into the rather frightening work of trying to sort out all the weirdnesses that the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (ANCSA) has wrought that makes Alaska look so different from the Lower 48 of the U.S. Wish me luck. --Yksin 02:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Very, very good work, Yksin! Good luck indeed. --Miskwito 03:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Assessment of Wendigo

In the last few days I've done a significant rewrite/rework of the Wendigo article. It's inappropriate for me to rate it myself, then; but I don't think my original "stub" rating applies anymore. If anyone wanted to take a look at it and give it a new rating, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks! --Miskwito 03:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Having a play with it. Needs a 2 or 3 para intro at top. Might do this soon....cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 01:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Template not quite working?

I was pecking away at the Category:Unassessed Indigenous peoples of North America articles and noticed something. It seems about a quarter of the articles are listed alphabetically by their names and about three-quarters of the articles are listed under "T" as Talk:XXXX, though all are shown as the Talk pages. I looked at the differences between the two and both types look identical with the {{NorthAmNative}} template in their Talk pages. Can anyone figure out why so many are being listed under "Talk"? Thanks. CJLippert 05:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I know part of what is going on here. When we have the {{NorthAmNative}} template alone in the Talk: page, it files the article under "T" for "Talk" but if there are multiple templates on the Talk: page, then it files the article under the article's name. This seems like an issue not of IPNA but with the Wikipedia system in general. I will take this question to the Wikipedia:Village pump or the Wikipedia:Help and ask there how to resolve this issue. CJLippert 18:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I just got a note at the Wikipedia:Village pump that the problem has been resolved. Sure enough, the Category:Unassessed Indigenous peoples of North America articles now show as the Talk: but lists them by the article title and not under "T" for "talk". CJLippert 02:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

In addition, there is a blank page called Wikipedia:Catholic Encyclopedia cat FirstNations with a {{NorthAmNative}} in its Talk: page. May I request this to be speedily deleted? CJLippert 15:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW. Thank you to all of you who just happened to have the template on your User talk: page and have either deleted it or have said to not tranceduce it (by making it say {{tl|NorthAmNative}}). CJLippert 15:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

As an additional note, we have several Category talk: with the template. Do we want to leave them in the Category pages or just have them in the actual articles and in instances of template descriptions. CJLippert 18:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Somewhere on my talkpage or its archive there's an un-colon'd category name that lists my user page as being in Category:First Nations in British Columbia. If anyone else can find it and "neutralize" it it would be appreciated. ThxSkookum1 22:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it for ya. Don't say Oregon never did anything for you. :P Katr67 23:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem had been fixed at {{NorthAmNative}} using category sorting by {{PAGENAME}}, but I didn't notice the other template {{NorthAmNative/Anishinaabe}}. Both should be sorting properly now. –Pomte 01:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! CJLippert 02:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Nez Perce Horse

This is a stub article on a tribal breeding program for native youth. You may want to add it to the project. I didn't want to just add the banner, as I am not associated with the project. Cheers. --Robbie Giles 18:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Opinions on page move request

I have requested Sioux Uprising be moved to a more neutral title. Please see the talkpage for further information if one is interested. Thanks, oncamera^(t) 06:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Just noticed, & want to congratulate you on your successful effort to get the article renamed to Dakota War of 1862. --Yksin 19:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What about now?

Whereas much of Wikipedia is guilty of presentism, our handling of Native Americans seems to suffer from just the opposite, a sort of historical-anthropological filter.

For example, I recently wrote three articles about a prominent, contemporary Sin-Aikst family, siblings Bernie Whitebear, Lawney Reyes, and Luana Reyes. There seems to be very little to tie them into in terms of contemporary "urban Indian" activism. And I noticed that our Nuu-chah-nulth article does not mention Joe David, a pretty notable artist, born 1946.

I've noticed that this is an issue in the handling of a lot of the Northwest tribes and, I have to suspect, those of other regions I don't know much about: we write about Native Americans from an anthropological point of view that we would never bring to discussing a European ethnicity, and we deal only with traditional cultures, completely ignoring present-day culture, even when personified by reasonably major figures. If there has been any significant writing in Wikipedia about "urban Indians" and/or about syncretic contemporary native culture, I've largely missed it. Is it out there somewhere?

I won't claim that this is exactly my element, but I assume that the revival and transformation of Native American life that I've seen around here in the thirty years I've lived in Seattle cannot be unique; Wikipedia seems to be doing a weak job of covering it. (I've noticed that there is definitely a difference in attitude here in Seattle to New York where I'm originally from. In museums in New York, Native American art was nearly always just attributed to what tribe the artist was from. Here, whenever possible, it's attributed to individuals, exactly as it would be for an artist of European background.) - Jmabel | Talk 08:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Jim Thorpe FAR

Jim Thorpe has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Native American Tribal Entities have been updated

List of Native American Tribal Entities have been updated per the Federal Register, Volume 72, Number 55 dated March 22, 2007 (72 FR 13648). However, there are a lot of entries needing re-directs. Please assist in linking each and every list entry by creating an appropriate re-direct to the existing articles. Thanks. CJLippert 20:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, List of Alaska Native Tribal Entities will need to be updated as well to reflect the new FR72-55 listing. CJLippert 22:00, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Alaska Native Tribal Entities updated. CJLippert 16:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Rights

I just wanted to put this template on this project's radar. It needed to be made and nobody has said anything about it yet, so... yeah. - Freechild 06:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Good work, Freechild :) I'll add it to the Project's templates page asap. Phaedriel - 06:48, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hm. Makes me wonder if there should be, or already is, certain variations on that, e.g. category:Aboriginal land claims in Canada, which would have subcats ; we just way "Land Claims" and "aobiriginal rights (when including Metis and Inuit, othrewise "Indian rights" would jes' fine - I've onticed a shift back/to/from Indian vs. First Nations, and I think maybe it's going on south of the border; not in pc.acaemic-speak but in how, er, Indians themselves use it. Just thoughts; I can barely see this as my glasses are maybe in the lost and found at transit since last Friday, so I'll sign off; I like the category, and know there's a whole bunc hof canadian aticles that will need it, eithre etant or to be written ;and wondering about other cats on rights-related things e.g. land claims, with provincial subcats (BC's is a very differennt situations form the other provinces/territories, so there might also be perhaps Category:BC Treaty process participating government (cmberesome nuh?) but you get the idea....ok, Hi Phaedriel; still here so far; think this must be your first post in the wikiproject page since you're back (or I would have noticed). Hmmm. parting thought, concerning cats re Indian Rights(/struggle) it just popped to mind that there's, if you'll forgive me, "Indian otlaws", or rather rebels - "insurgents" as I pointed out the "attackers" at Talk:Battle of Seattle *1858) 1856 if that redlinks; can't rmember). All depending on how you look at it, but there's a particularly lrage number of those who were falsely charged and either did time or went on the run, or got hung or shot or whatever; i.e. those many who surrendered on terms of amnesty/truce only to be arrested and tried for murder; there's more than a few in history on both sides of the border; a lot of these guys just get Category:Native American leaders or Category:First Nations leaders, e.g. Simon Gunanoot, whose is an interesting story btw, but because they were hunted and wanted me, it would seem a special category would be appropriate; what to call it I don't know....tegory:First Nations insurgents? BTW re Indian/Native American, what do I do about, say, people of mixed parentage in BC who aren't Metis, i.e. those we just used to call "halfbreeds" without any taint; there's really no other way to say it until Metis got applied across the board; but the original Metis as you can see form that page and its talkpage don't include the cdn constitutinal definition. I'm thinking of particula4r people in the history of BC/WA/OR/ID e.g. David McLoughlin, son of Dr. John, Frank Gott a half-St'at'imc war hero who died in a quarrel with a game warden when he cameback; Slumach, whose article I'll write before I'm gone, who was tried for the murder of a "Kanaka halfbred" (which could mean either half-white or half-Indian...of a mix of both and perhaps more...) named Louis Bee, but who also had this "lost" gold mine that anybody who went looking for in later years died in the course of the search (see - this will be added to Volacni Brown when I get around to it, as even though he had slumach's secret, he died (sluamch wnet to the gallows, it's debatahble if he was the killer; myths grew up over the years that he lured and murdered women, none of which happened or was in the press of his day; eerily, all this went down in the vicinity of the [[Robert Pickton}Pickton pig farm]]....a real creepy paralel now that I know about it. Anyway, I'm sure it's the case throughout the US - non-status people of nkown Indian blood (and I don't mean just Cher and Burt Reynolds ;-p); people who were/are culturally "half-breed"; depends on the culture; the late great artist Bill Reid (sculptor)/Bill Reid (artist) (whichever of those works) was only 1/16 Haida, and not raised in Haida culture; but whethr by Haida custom (as in Hawaii as it happens) or by adoption because of hte fvervour of his late-adopted/revived Haida-neess (his artwork was a pinnacle of hte modern revival) - he is considered full Haida....anyway, amazing I got this far for someone who can barely see the screeen...I'm going to eat my porridge and cottage cheese now (it's quite good with walnuts, banana and protein powder if you have any... Skookum1 08:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Help with references for mythological aspect of Raven in Common Raven

Hi all, I'm involved with Wikiproject Birds getting Common Raven up toward (hopefully) an FA. Was wondering if anyone had any references for Raven in North American mythology to slot into the bottom of the Common Raven and Raven (mythology) articles? Much appreciated in advance. cheers, Casliber | talk | contribs 01:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I mentioned some ravens on Miwok mythology that you might use. Goldenrowley 05:02, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Harmon Percy Marble

I added the article to this WikiProject. The article needs to be cleaned up, and I think it should be done by someone in this WikiProject. I found the article on a bot's new article watchlist for WikiProject Wisconsin. Cheers! Royalbroil 01:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

(Moved from top)

I am interested in lending assistance to this project in the areas of law and advocacy. I have a Juris Doctor and have been active in American Indian Movement, Indian Right, and Indigenous peoples Rights for 29 years. I am new to Wikipedia so please for give any gaffes I have committed. Please email me with info on how to join, etc. Wabus44 12:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Wabus44! You don't have to do anything special to join, just start helping out with the articles that interest you. If you want you can add your name to the list of participants. Take care, --Miskwito 06:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Need more articles for Native writers list

I was shocked to find no entry for prominent poet/writer Simon J. Ortiz, and just attempted to create one (although it's incomplete). There are many others on the Native writers list that have no article or are mere stubs/starts. The last part needed for the article I just wrote is a summary of Ortiz' most important works and their mark on Native lit. Your help with this would be most appreciated as I don't feel qualified to write a good general commentary on that as I haven't read enough of his work. Man, do we need help here w/ Native writers... Let's do it, people! Efrafra 06:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been working through Kratzert, M. "Native American Literature: Expanding the Canon", Collection Building Vol. 17, 1, 1998, p. 4, which has material for a couple dozen stubs. If you are interested, its a good source... Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, finished adding material from the article, added some names to the list and blued some redlinks. Left comment there about Jamake Highwater. Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: additions were all stubby ; ) Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Scope of top-level articles

I had some comments recently here in which I think out loud about the scope issues of Native Americans in the United States (and, by implication, related articles).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

{{NorthAmNative}} code broken

Can someone help fix the code in the {{NorthAmNative}} template? It's not working properly when placed in a banner shell. I left a more specific message on the talk page for the template about exactly what the problem is. I'd fix it myself but it's beyond my skills. I can see it not working, but I can't see where the issue is in the code. Miss Mondegreen | Talk   07:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see this before, dear - I created that template originally, so I'll look into it right away. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! Regards, Phaedriel - 00:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks--I'm an uber-obbsessed with the bannershell, just because it is so very beautiful. The template isn't listed as compatible so once it's fixed, one of us can update the list there. Btw--I am very impressed with the template. Anyway, thanks again! Miss Mondegreen talk  03:43, May 6 2007

Please review and comment on the following policy proposal

Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

New thing - Experts wanted

Hi guys. I just wanted you to know I've added a page where people will be putting requests for experts on the Indigenous peoples of North America, and began to identify such topics that have asked for experts: Category:Indigenous peoples of North America articles needing expert attention. This is part of the expert finding process. Goldenrowley 04:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

help needed Jonayaiyin????

i'm trying to find the correct grammar for Jonayaiyin, for an article, not related with the wikiproject(The Maxnificent Seven).The real name can be quite distant.

Jonayaiyin:A skilled warrior in the Apache tribe's myths. He was said to battle the enemies of mankind.

• --87.65.141.62 22:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Cherokee Chiefs

I've added new articles on the remaining principal chiefs of the Cherokee Nation, and some pictures, so that there is now at least a stub on every principal chief the Nation has had since 1730. --Aaron Walden 20:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

German Wiki

I don't speak German, but I noticed there is a Wiki, in the German language devoted entirely to this subject. Indianer Wiki. --Aaron Walden 04:25, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it (at least for the Anishinaabe-related articles), it is a less robust wiki compared to the de.wiki site. BTW, there is a similar non-Wikipedia wiki site devoted to all things Canadian called Canadawiki. Their First Nations DCB Entries can be accessed here. Now, here is a question, I have noticed copyright violations happening on other Wikipedia language sites as I have been checking the interwiki links for the articles I visit and maintain. How would I address these issues to the greater Wikipedia community at large? CJLippert 13:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Indigenous Peoples of the Pacific Northwest

The Pacific Northwest article's history section has been expanded on, but still lacks even a paragraph on the indigenous people.

Can someone more knowledgeable than I spend a little time on that? Thanks.

.s

X ile 03:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC) - Talk

Infobox ethnic group for Nations

Template:Infobox ethnic group is currently being used for some US tribal sovereignties, eg: Navajo Nation. It's a bad fit for Canadian First Nations, where key statistics are things like government structure, establishment date, area, population, etc. I've thrown Template:Infobox country up on Tsawwassen First Nation, Kwantlen First Nation, Semiahmoo First Nation, and Squamish Nation just to see how it looks (there's precedent for using Infobox country on non-countries, eg: Wales, Hong Kong, European Union). I think it's a step in the right direction, but this project should work with WP:CANADA to customize the template. Vagary 20:43, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Can't one use whichever of the two infoboxes seems most appropriate?--Aaron Walden 09:14, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

By all means use the country infobox as it currently stands. I'm assuming that there will be desire for customization when it is used more widely. Vagary 10:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

(Not a regular reader here...) I've never liked Template:Infobox ethnic group because of its inflexibility. I'm sure it was the best that could be done at the time it was created, but nowadays some Infoboxes are much more flexible. The ethnic group box should probably be updated along the lines of the Military unit infobox, where there's a plethora of special fields, all them optional, with many field labels that can be customized. Do something like this, and North American tribes can still have a central infobox which can be adjusted for First Nations, unrecognized tribes, extinct tribes, etc. If you get grief from the Ethnic Group project, simply create Template:Infobox North American native. ;-) —Kevin Myers 00:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

MJCdetroit has proposed using {{Infobox Settlement}} for Tsawwassen First Nation. This would not work for a non-contiguous nation like Nisga'a. Thoughts? Vagary 04:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Sewan mnana and Rustic kofos

What are these articles: Sewan mnana and Rustic kofos? For the "Rustic kofos," it states it is a Polish translation of the Ojibwe word "Sewan mnana" but I don't know of any words in Anishinaabemowin that sounds even remotely close to this... even with syncope into consideration. In the Freelang Ojibwe master database (an not the downloadable modules from the site), I have the ability to look things up based on "how it sounds" in Ojibwe rather than the "double vowel" spelling and I had no "hits" with "z?o?n" search (for the "sewan") or with "m?n?n" (for the "mnana") that had the terms "sleep", "dream," "steal," "stolen," "stop," or "death". I did the similar from English to Ojibwe and other than the word for "sleepless" ("nibaasiiwin": does not sleep), I had not "hits" resembling "sewan" or "mnana". In addition both articles seem to lack references. Have anyone heard of this? Maybe it is a term not found in Anishinaabemowin and was misattributed to an Ojibwe phrase. Help appreciated. CJLippert 22:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Bizarrely I found a reference to this on Google Earth at 45°10'12.77"N 82°34'12.98"E - at a Chinese railways station... and a photo of Adolf Hitler and Wittgenstein...??? Comments by Anonymous User Special:Contributions/213.162.106.145 on 22:43, 1 July 2007.

Google Earth shows the article only because the coordinates were given in the article for that station in the remote western China. The picture of Hitler and Wittgenstein is unconfirmed, but I have heard of them being classmates, so the photo may be real, but the picture doesn't belong in the articles in question; it belongs in the article for Wittgenstein. I had put in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sewan mnana and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rustic kofos and bunch of us there tried to figure out these two articles, and none of us could, other than we determined they did not have an Ojibwe or Polish names. One suggested maybe the "Sewan mnana" was Spanish, which "sueño mañana" would sort of sound like it. CJLippert 13:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

terminology

Sorry if I've missed this somewhere else, but I'm curious if there are standards for terminology. Things like referring to the time before colonization as pre-colonization, pre-white, pre-history, etc. Murderbike 21:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yavapai people

I've started writing this article in my sandbox, and wanted to open up to advice from folks here. I'm not Yavapai, and was raised by US public education, but am trying to be aware of slips in terminology that can make an article bad. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Murderbike 21:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and published this article, if folks want to take a look at it, or if someone wants to grade it, that'd be great. Murderbike 03:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

So I left the "population" section of the infobox blank, because it seemed really hard to measure beyond reservation population, and it seems ridiculous to only include a reservation population. Anyone got advice? Murderbike 22:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

That's a tough one. We already know that Yavapai-Prescott have 159 and Ft McDowell have 900 (of which on 600 are on the Rez). The big question is Yavapai-Apache. Tribe's website makes no mention of how many people have membership, of which 743 people are on the Rez; and of that un-mentioned total number, how many identifies themselves as Yavapai and how many as Apache. We can estimate: Say, let's estimate 2/3 live on Rez (based on Ft McDowell's example), which would make the estimated total population as 1,114, of which if we estimate 50% are Yavapai, our guess on the Yapavai portion of the Yavapai-Apache would be 557. So, 557 + 900 + 159 = 1,616. So our estimation here is 1,616 total Yavapai associated with the three Rezes. Better than no numbers. Otherwise, send the Yavapai-Apache Tribal governement an e-mail ask them. With a firm Yavapai count from them, and then combining that with the numbers from the other Rezes, you should have a number better than our quick estimation of 1,616. CJLippert 23:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Washita River

I'm putting a general call out here for anyone who knows about this battle, in which Custer's forces attacked the camp of Black Kettle at the Washita River near present day Cheyenne, Oklahoma. There has been edit warring over there for the past couple of days resulting from an editor, Custerwest (talk · contribs) almost completely rewriting the article, apparently against consensus. I'm not involved directly in the article as I have insufficient knowledge of it to really judge facts & sources, but it seems to me that more eyes of knowledgeable people are needed there. My involvement is more simply to try to stop the edit warring & try to get the parties to discuss on the talk pages without personal attacks in order to achieve consensus. In that regard, yesterday I filed a report at ANI -- see WP:ANI#Problems between HanzoHattori and Custerwest -- but nothing is resolved yet; I've just asked an admin I somewhat know for intervention. But for the sake of actual article accuracy, that's why I'm asking for your help here. --Yksin 17:06, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

We could really use some help with this if people have the time. Murderbike 23:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

American Indian identity article (Who is Indian?)

After a recent ado at Cherokee, I decided to pull my notes together (and add more) to make an article on Cherokee identity. I wasn't happy with the article, however, and expanded the scope, which I've collected as some notes at User:Smmurphy/American Indian identity. I'd like it if anyone has any comments on the project. Right now the article is long (but not longer than many other articles), and I'm not sure if many sections can be spun off, although much could be cut, and much of it probably already exists elsewhere (such as in blood quantum). Also, articles like this usually are tough to title (see Who is black, Who is a Jew?), does anyone have an idea or preference about the title? Thanks, Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice research! I would agree that American Indian Identity is a good title for the article as it stands on your talk page, as it's not a world-wide view. Although we could also stub out sections to challenge other editors to fill in the blanks. (eg: Métis people has very little about identity presently) Vagary 06:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

From the perspective primarily seen in the US, yes, this is an excellent article; however, this isn't quite how it works in Canada, and for Indigenous peoples cut in half by the international boundary, the issue becomes even more complex, mainly due to differing policies between Canada and the United States, though differing from each other, they both go against the very notion of "peoplehood". To this mix, if we then throw in treatment of indigenous peoples in Mexico and their Mestizos, the results of past French, British and Spanish colonial policies to which Canada, United States and Mexico inherited, the issue becomes extremely complex. However, the article proto-type you have started is segmented in a way to allow the reader to explore key topics in detail, which is very good... but more of these key topics with links to each of their "Main Article" are needed. I think if we have a further developed topic intros with these key handle-bar links to articles to bring light more on these issues, the article will be one of the strongest out there. It already is well on its way there. Good job. CJLippert 13:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a good point. Most of the material is based on US authors, who cite and are cited by mostly other US authors, which furthers the bias. [Even the material that isn't specific to the US government is (mostly?) based on researchers working with US Indians.] I hadn't thought about like that, but you are right that things become very complex if you try to broaden the scope more so that issues in many different countries are included. I still feel the article is hardly more than a collection of notes, and I'm humbled that you appreciate the work. I do think it would be ok to de-userfy it. Based on CJLippert's comment, and after removing the feminist criticism of Canada's Indian Act, I think the most correct title might be "American Indian identity in the United States," unless American and US are somehow redundant. What do you (anybody) think about the title and readiness for article space? And as always, feel free to make edits there if you like. Thanks, Smmurphy^(Talk) 17:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of keeping this US-centric and spinning off full articles as data from Canada and Mexico becomes available. (For example, the Indian Act feminist critique can either be put into Indian Act or an article about Native American gender issues.)

I don't think "American Indian" gets used very often in Canada, so to a Canadian American Indian identity is unambiguous, but to an American it probably is? Native American identity in the United States would follow the precedent set by Native American name controversy. Vagary 18:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it might be more encyclopedic to use "Native American" rather than "American Indian,' although "American Indian" is used more by the sources I've seen (for whatever reason). Convention sounds like the best reason to go with any particular name, though. Although, "Native American identity in the United States" is a bit long, it seems to satisfy both political correctness and universal understandability. If there isn't any reason not to, we can probably move it to article space (and this discussion can go to the articles talk page, especially so that "not-quite-as-major" content issues are discussed there rather than here).

BTW, I'm sorry that the sources, my time, and my experiences didn't let me bring Canadian and Mexican indigenous identity into the article. I know there are plenty of other sources for Canadian identity issues (much of the Indian power movements came out of Toronto, and their literature might be a good starting place), but I don't know much about the Mexican side at all. Even so, I'd be happy to help get a stub started on both, but I'm just as unsure about what the titles would be as I am about the content. Would it be "First Nations identity in Canada," and "??? in Mexico"? Do you (anybody) think a stub there would be a good idea?

Thanks a lot for your advice. Best, Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again, the page is now live at Native American identity in the United States. I've pasted this conversation to that talk page, so feel free to bring any issues you have their. Best, Smmurphy^(Talk) 05:29, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, I just forked some of the content from this page to [[Native American recognition in the United States. There is also talk of the use for a "representation" page or something to discuss how Indians are represented in cultural artifacts (think the Boston Tea Party), which is also mentioned at the identity page's talk page. Feel free to comment on any of this stuff. And as an article on stereotypes and representations of Native Americans would be a nice link for the identity article, please let me know if one exists already, so if I can link to it instead of trying to create an article on something I'm not to knowledgeable about. Best, Smmurphy^(Talk) 13:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

NativeWiki

A {{prod}} template has been added to the article NativeWiki, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached.

--DieWeisseRose 01:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that the article NativeWiki stub is even worth mentioning here at Wikipedia. However, it might be a good idea for us here at the WP:IPNA have the NativeWiki site link be made available as an External link. But, where on our project pages would such an external link be appropriate? If we have such an external link, would we want to also add the site link to that German Wiki page devoted to all things Indian? And the CadanaWiki? I think there is a Wiki out there in Spanish similar to that German Wiki... would we also want a link to that be placed at such External link section as well? CJLippert 22:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

We certainly should refer to it on the project page: since it's GFDL I believe Wikipedia is free to copy&paste text directly. (With the language sites translation is necessary, and Wikimedia projects are already well interlinked.) Vagary 23:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, NativeWiki is listed in the "List of wikis". --DieWeisseRose 20:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Treaties signed between US and Tribal individuals v. Treaties signed between US and Tribal governmental representatives

Please see the discussion starting up at Talk:List of United States treaties#Treaties with Native American entities. CJLippert 17:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Request for help with Brocket 99

Hello. I've been helping out a user who is protecting Brocket 99 from repeated vandalism and spamming by a couple of users. The article was listed as belonging to this project by User:The Halo who has now left Wikipedia. If any project members could help police and improve the article, it would be appreciated. If it is not patrolled, offensive stereotypes about the Peighan First Nations will be continued. Canuckle 13:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You can list any repeating-vandals at WP:AIV to curb that, and request for page protection, as well. Good luck, oncamera^(t) 19:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Formatting help needed for the TOC at List of Indian reservations in the United States

I just went through and tied the listings found on List of Indian reservations in the United States to the list the U.S. Census Bureau has. In the process, many links that were there got broken. In the coming days, I will be placing re-directs to re-link the ones that were there that got broken. Meanwhile, in addition to the Federally established Indian Reservations -- which includes Rancherias, Colonies, Communities, Pueblos and Trusts -- I have added in everything the Census Bureau has, including OTSAs, SDTSAs, etc. The compact TOC works great for the "Reservation" section, as it is indexed, but I can't figure out how to put an upper-level TOC in place so that folks accessing the page could easily go to other sections other than the "Reservation" section. If you know how to format TOCs, please help. Thanks. CJLippert 15:51, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Figured it out! I suppose Alaskan Villages and Corporation Areas could be added in as well. Also, the Chapters, Reservations and Off-Reservation areas of the Navajo Nation is being added in. Now, here is a question. I have noticed there are some State and Tribally designated areas and reservations that were on the list before the update but the Census didn't list. How should we add them to the list? CJLippert 00:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Map needed

Classification of indigenous peoples of the Americas has a nice map of North America and the cultural regions. What it needs is a map of Central and South America. Do we have one around or could someone create one? Rmhermen 05:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No article on art

I don't know if this has been said before, but there is a glaring lack of an article on Native American art. Even a stub that linked to the various articles in Category:Native American art would clear various redlinks in global overview articles. Johnbod 02:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Mountain Meadows massacre

I have requested a peer review for the MMM article. I am placing this here in hopes editors can take a look at the article's treatment of Paiute participation in the event. Sources I have used (yes, many of them are Mormon apologists) vary wildly in the number of native participants in the massacre. I am going through the testimonies of admitted Mormon participants to narrow down more exact numbers. Many of the larger claims come from third or fourth hand retellings based on rumors put forth by people involved in covering up white participation. (My opinion, although I am trying to remain as neutral as possible.) Any feedback is appreciated. You can comment to me directly if you prefer. --Robbie Giles 13:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

What about books?

Two books immediately come to mind: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus, and an article I just started about a second book: Indian Givers: How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World. Is there a list of books that deal with topics like this? Or is this just general history? I put the NorthAmNative tag on the new article's discussion page, but I also wonder if there is any project for the South American Indians. Does anyone know? Hires an editor 02:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)