Talk:Mormonism and Nicene Christianity

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Mark provided this reference that discusses the history of God's revealed word, and explains why there can be no revelation after Jesus Christ. I wanted to comment on some of the statements. Note that I can only comment on the actual words of the catechism, based on my understanding of LDS doctrine. I am not familiar with whatever other ideas or meaning there may be behind some of these word. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

51 "It pleased God, in his goodness and wisdom...that men should have access to the Father...become sharers in the divine nature." Yes, "For this is my work and my glory..." see Moses 1:39 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

52 "...adopt them as his sons...knowing him and of loving him..." Yes, see Mosiah 5:7 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

53 "...God communicates himself to man gradually..." Yes, line upon line, precept upon precept. 2 Nephi 28:30 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

54 "...he manifested himself to our first parents from the very beginning...He invited them to intimate communion with himself..." Yes, "...the Lord God, took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden, to dress it, and to keep it...commanded the man..." Moses 3:15-17 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

55 "...After the fall, [God] buoyed them up with the hope of salvation..." Yes, "And Adam and Eve, his wife, called upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice of the Lord...And he gave unto them commandments..." see Moses 5 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

56-58 "...the principle of the divine economy toward the "nations" LDS consider Noah to be a prophet. I'm not sure what 'divine economy' means. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

59 "...God calls Abram...and makes him Abraham, that is, "the father of a multitude of nations...In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." LDS consider Abraham to be a prophet. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

60 "...people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people..." Yes, LDS agree with all of this and further believe that Abraham held the higher priesthood, had a celestial marriage, was promised exaltation. See LDS Bible dictionary, Covenant of Abraham. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

61 "...honored as saints..." LDS use the word 'Saints' to refer to members of Christ's true church. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

62 "...covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law..." LDS believe that God originally gave the Celestial law to Moses, but the children of Israel were not ready to live it, so he gave them a preparatory law, which we call the law of Moses. See LDS Bible dictionary, Law of Moses. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

63 "...Israel is the priestly people of God..." Yes again, see LDS Bible dictionary Covenant of Abraham 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

64 "...Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant..." This is really interesting. The footnote references Isaiah 2:2-4, LDS view this as a direct prophecy of the restoration. I don't think the words "new and everlasting Covenant" appear anywhere in the Bible, but they are included in several LDS scriptures, especially interesting is a revelation given in response to those who had previously been baptised in other churches, and wanted to join the Church of Jesus Christ without rebaptism: D&C 22:1 "Behold, I say unto you that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing; and this is a new and an everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning." 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

65 "In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say." Someone has added a lot to Hebrews 1:1-2 that isn't in the original text, at least not in the KJV. I didn't know who St. John of the Cross was, I thought maybe this was apocrypha, but I learned that he lived 1542-1591. Why are his writings being quoted as if they were scripture? I find it especially ironic that this expansion / interpretation of scripture, written 1500 years after Christ, is used as evidence to prove that God had given the final word when he sent Jesus Christ. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

66 "...the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected..." LDS believe that the fundamental gospel truths (Faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost), don't change.

67a "...there have been so-called "private" revelations... It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium..." It sounds like MC believe that people change, necessitating further interpretation of scripture, and so MC depend upon learned men to do this. LDS agree that eternal truths must be interpreted and applied to new situations, but LDS believe that this must be done by one who is called of God, by prophecy. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

67b "Christian faith cannot accept "revelations" that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment..." LDS also believe this. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

58-73 summary, review. 74s181 (talk) 04:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

74, I am not sure what objective you are trying to get to by identifying these possible similarities. Can you elaborate.

When Jesus was upon the earth he said repent, be baptized, and follow me. That was enough for discipleship. For LDS this forms the basis of Christianity. Jesus was so significant that to follow Him united his followers. When LDS think of Christianity, Jesus Christ is the centerpiece; He is everything.

Centuries latter residual Christianity evolved until a special knowledge was required to be part of Christianity. This demand for orthodoxy of belief was a committment to perceived truth as identified by many holy men, among others, in several significant councils. There were schisms from the very beginning of these councils and these schisims have yet to stop.

There are significant differences between LDS doctrine and the churches that descended from 4th century Christianity. LDS accept these differences; in most situations LDS point to them as evidence of scriptural conflict and the doctrines of men.

I think that what you are doing is presenting a case for why LDS are Christian, but is there another objective? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 04:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

74s181, what's written by St John of the Cross is not being quoted "as Scripture", and it's not being used as "proof". The proof that new revelation will not be given is that Christ has come, and in the Holy Spirit dwells in the Church. The idea of a prophet like Moses leading the church is excluded. The quotation expresses this, and its implication, succinctly and clearly. Circumstances change, and doctrine grows to more fully confirm the church in the revelation which it has already received; new revelation contradicts this confidence.

Since these sentences are written to purposely exclude the sort of thing that the LDS teaches, you can't really say that you "believe this" unless you've either misunderstood it, or you've rejected LDS teaching. You'll need to look more closely at the Roman Catholic idea of "the deposit of faith", and the Eastern Orthodox idea of "Holy Tradition", to see why this makes a Joseph Smith impossible, in principle, in the Church. You're pointing out that there is a superficial similarity of words, even when presenting conflicting concepts; but agreement is more than that. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 04:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"The Question" is secondary. Clearly, revelation is a core issue, but I've wondered about the basis of MC belief on this. Mark has been saying things that sounded like official doctrinal statements, but I never understood where they were coming from. He gave this reference, I took a look at it and saw some of the things that I had been hearing. Things like "deposit of faith". Also, St. John of the Cross sounded like someone that might be a very early source, it got my attention. I read thru it, checked the scriptural references. As you said, much is similar until we get to the subject of revelation. There is a carefully constructed fence around the idea of revelation, unfortunately, there is nothing here that tells us who constructed the fence or when. MC assume it has existed from the beginning. Well, at least now I understand what is meant by "deposit of faith". 74s181 (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"The proof that new revelation will not be given..." Where does the Bible say that there will be no revelation after Christ? Why do MC believe this, if not because men like St. John of the Cross have said it is so? 74s181 (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't understand. It's not because John of the Cross said this, that it's believed: it's the other way around. He said it because this is what we are given to believe; we believe it because of who Christ is. It makes no sense to return to a Moses or an Elijah, now that the one they anticipated has come: "This is my beloved Son, hear him." — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"...you can't really say that you "believe this" Mark, I believe everything I've said here. I'm not in agreement with everything in the catechism. I agree that Jesus Christ taught many things to his apostles, but most of what he taught wasn't written, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". I suspect that we don't even have all the things his apostles wrote. 74s181 (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"They have the Scriptures, let them hear them." — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Mark, I have a better understanding of what is meant by the "deposit of faith", can you tell me when MC believe this deposit was complete? Was it at Jesus Christ's crucifixion, or the resurrection, or the ascension, or at some other time? I'll be straight with you, what I really want to know is was it before or after Stephen saw "...the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God", or the revelation to Peter on taking the gospel to the Gentiles, or the ending of circumcision and other ritual observances of the law of Moses? I guess I"m engaging in the dabate a bit, but I would like to know when MC believe the deposit was completed and the heavens closed. 74s181 (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The time of the apostles was unique. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:10, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I know that the discussion has moved on, but, I'm still curious, what does "The time of the apostles was unique" mean? What I mean is, #65 said that Jesus Christ was the final word, there should be no changes in the church after Christ's ascension. And yet, there they are. Let's fast forward a few hundred years, to the time of Martin Luther and the practice of selling indulgences. The granting of indulgences had been part of the tradition, based on Matthew 16:19, and really going back to the blood sacrifice of the law of Moses. It was the selling of indulgences that triggered the reformation, but Martin Luther objected to the idea that any man had the authority to commute sin, completely repudiating the doctrine, saying that the tradition was wrong. So, how does this occur? Could something similar occur today? Isn't this what happened every time a new Christian church broke off from a previous church? Didn't the parent churches always label those who broke with 'tradition' as heretics? And yet, they all still claim to be part of that 'deposit of faith'. 74s181 (talk) 03:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

So, the real question, the question that makes the above questions relevant, why was the LDS movement different? Why did all the other Christian churches close ranks against the LDS? There is something here that isn't clear, this may be the nuclear issue I have been looking for. 74s181 (talk) 03:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Protestants aren't called heretics on account of their objections to indulgences. Eastern Orthodoxy has never had a doctrine of purgatory or indulgences, and they aren't called heretics on that account. There are all kinds of things that separate Protestants, Orthodox and Catholic; but what separates the LDS is of a very different character. There are many anti-trinitarian heresies; is it your perception that Mormons are treated differently than these others? I think that they have been treated differently in the past, but not on account of their "heresy" heresy being different. Anyway, I follow the argument you're trying to set up, but I don't see any real questions here. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 05:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

self-edit 20:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Protestants and Eastern Orthodox aren't treated as heretics today, but when they initially criticized tradition they were treated as heretics. Martin Luther was excommunicated for his criticism of traditional doctrines. 74s181 (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The only argument I'm trying to set up is this. There is something unique about Mormonism that unites all MC religious institutions against them. What is it? If we say it is the rejection of Tradition, then what about other restorationist churches such as Churches of Christ? Are they regarded in the same way as LDS? Another possibility is 'sheep stealing'. Both LDS and Jehovah's Witnesses actively seek converts, even among those affiliated with another Christian church, I know that this practice is offensive to MC, most MC churches teach non-aggression within the MC club, but consider LDS, JW, and perhaps other outsiders to be fair game. Then there is the issue of paid ministry, or rather, lack of it. One could argue that this is a threat to the ministerial hierarchy of other churches, and combined with the proselyting activities of LDS perhaps it is enough to unite the MC leadership against them. 74s181 (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

So, I'm not trying to 'set up' any particular argument, I'm trying to understand what the argument is, what sets LDS apart from the diversity that is MC. Here is a specific question, are other restoration groups like Churches of Christ considered part of MC? I know that they reject the creeds and tradition, but I don't know how they interpret the Bible regarding the nature of God. If they reject creedal trinitarianism but teach essentially the same doctrine then I would think that they would be accepted. Are they accepted? 74s181 (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't see what's profitable about this, and I don't see any mystery here. Are you of the opinion that the LDS doesn't want to be "set apart"? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think LDS want to be "set apart" from other Christians. I'll drop this for now, 'Mormonism is Christianity' is an interesting path, let's see where it goes. 74s181 (talk) 23:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, what you mean is that, you want other Christians to be Mormons? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 00:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you meant by this question, I've been thinking about it. The easy answer is yes. McConkie says they already are so I guess we just have to get them to accept baptism. LDS believe that eventually most will. Is that what you are asking? Is this about the sheep stealing comment? 74s181 03:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Revert explained

The revision by 198.60.4.6 changed the introductory sentence to say that Mormonism and Christianity are two different things. This change essentially declares that the POV of Mormonism is false. Against this lead, the following paragraph asserts the opposite - as though Mormonism is in an argument with Wikipedia. Furthermore, the revision asserted that there is "common ground" between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity - which in light of the following sentence is confusing, or misleading. I reverted these changes for those and a few other lesser reasons. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Eternal progression of God

In an earlier discussion, I replied to Storm Rider:

At any rate, I have learned something if it's true that the concept of eternal progression does not apply to God - although, I do not see why it doesn't.

I want to return to this, because by all accounts there may at some points be a very significant gap between what some Mormons have believed, and what editors here have said is doctrine.

• "He [God] . . . was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being . . . It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God was once been a finite being." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7: 333)
• "If there were a point where a man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God himself is increasing in knowledge, power and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. It is just so with us." (Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses 6: 120)
• "We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on." (Heber C Kimbal, Journal of Discourses 5: 19)
• "Our God is a natural man . . . where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents." (Heber C Kimbal, Journal of Discourses 8: 211)
• "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." (Lorenzo Snow)
• "The Gods who dwell in heaven . . . were once in a fallen state . . . they were exalted also, from fallen men to celestial Gods." (Orson Pratt, The Seer 23)
• "Our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another." (Orson Pratt, The Seer 132)
• "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive . . . whose perfection consists in eternal advancement . . . a Being who has attained His exalted state." (James Talmage, A Study of the Articles of Faith 430)
• "God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became a God." (Milton R Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages 104)
• "There was a time when the Deity was much less powerful than He is today . . . He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became a God by absolute obedience." (Milton R Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages 114-115)
• "As the Prophet [Joseph Smith] also taught, ' there is a God above the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'." (Bruce R McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 322)
• "God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorious, exalted, immortal, resurrected man." (Bruce R McConkie, Mormon Doctrine 642-643)
• "God is an exalted man . . . our Father in Heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man . . . The Prophet [Joseph Smith] taught that our Father had a Father and so on . . . promises are made to us that we may become like him." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1: 10-12)

These quotes, cited frequently in anti-Mormon literature, indicate that Mormons in the highest levels of leadership, even prophets and apostles, have for most of the history of the LDS believed something that is not doctrine, and have misunderstood the teaching of Joseph Smith. These men believed that eternal progression applies to God; but President Hinckley and some contributors here have said that they know of no such doctrine. Regardless of whether doctrines have actually changed - let's assume that they have not, because Mormons say that they have not - nevertheless, beliefs about doctrine have changed significantly. Do you disagree? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 00:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mark- its been a while - I hope you are doing well. Of course LDS doctrine changes - we believe that God will reveal many things in future years and generations that we don't currently understand in its fullness. Let me offer some perspective from something i've been researching lately. I hope that this will help all of the editors in this discussion better understand what is doctrine versus an authoritative statement. Sorry for the length - it is worth the read.

“Let me illustrate with an experience I had recently. A Baptist minister and I were chatting in my office about a number of things, including doctrine. He said, "Bob, you people believe in such strange things!" "Like what?" I asked. "Oh, for example," he said, "you believe in blood atonement. And that affects Utah's insistence on retaining death by a firing squad." I responded, "No, we don't." "Yes, you do," he came right back. "I know of several statements by Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and Jedediah Grant that teach such things." "I'm aware of those statements," I said. I then found myself saying something I had never voiced before: "Yes, they were taught, but they do not represent the doctrine of our Church. We believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ, and that alone." My friend didn't miss a beat: "What do you mean those statements don't represent the doctrine of your church? They were spoken by major Church leaders."

“I explained that such statements were made, for the most part, during the so-called Mormon Reformation and they were examples of a kind of revival rhetoric through which Church leaders were striving to "raise the bar" for members' obedience and faithfulness. I assured him that the Church, by its own canonized standards, does not have the right or the power to take a person's life because of disobedience or even apostasy (D&C 134:10).

“In determining whether something is a part of the doctrine of the Church, we might ask: Is it found within the four standard works? Within official declarations or proclamations? Is it taught or discussed in general conference or other official gatherings by general Church leaders today? Is it found in the general handbooks or approved curriculum of the Church today? If it meets at least one of these criteria, we can appropriately teach it.

“A significant proportion of anti-Mormon writing focuses on statements by Church leaders of the past that deal with peripheral issues or non-central issues. No one criticizes us for believing in God, the divinity of Jesus Christ or his atoning work, the literal bodily resurrection of the Savior and the eventual resurrection of mankind, baptism by immersion, the gift of the Holy Ghost, the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, and so forth. But we are challenged regularly for statements in our literature on such matters as-

*God's life before He was God *How Jesus was conceived *The specific fate of sons of perdition *Teachings about Adam as God *Details of what it means to become like God hereafter *Whether plural marriage is essential to one's exaltation *Why blacks were denied the priesthood before 1978, and so forth - Robert Millet; (Religious Educator, Volume 4, Number 3, 2003)

The article goes on to quote an 1865 the First Presidency counseled the Latter-day Saints: "We do not wish incorrect and unsound doctrines to be handed down to posterity under the sanction of great names, to be received and valued by future generations as authentic and reliable, creating labor and difficulties for our successors to perform and contend with, which we ought not to transmit to them. The interests of posterity are, to a certain extent, in our hands. Errors in history and in doctrine, if left uncorrected by us who are conversant with the events, and who are in a position to judge of the truth or falsity of the doctrines, would go to our children as though we had sanctioned and endorsed them. . . . We know what sanctity there is always attached to the writings of men who have passed away, especially to the writings of Apostles, when none of their contemporaries are left, and we, therefore, feel the necessity of being watchful upon these points."

This was in direct reference to a number of the above doctrines. However, just like the term "spirit prison" as commonly used by Mormons today, the "doctrines" continued to be promulgated. ' The article goes on to say that "Prophets are men called of God to serve as covenant spokesmen for his children on earth, and thus we should never take lightly what they say. The early Brethren of this dispensation were the living prophets for their contemporaries, and much of what we believe and practice today rests upon the doctrinal foundation they laid. But the work of the Restoration entails a gradual unfolding of divine truth in a line-upon-line fashion. Some years ago my friend and colleague Joseph McConkie remarked to a group of religious educators: "We have the scholarship of the early brethren to build upon; we have the advantage of additional history; we have inched our way up the mountain of our destiny and now stand in a position to see things with greater clarity than did they. . . . We live in finer houses than did our pioneer forefathers, but this does not argue that we are better or that our rewards will be greater. In like manner our understanding of gospel principles should be better housed, and we should constantly be seeking to make it so. There is no honor in our reading by oil lamps when we have been granted better light." Ultimately the Lord will hold us responsible for the extent to which we give heed to the teachings, direction, and focus provided by the living oracles of our own day. Their teaching, direction, and focus come to us by means of their commentary upon canonized scripture as well as the living scripture that is delivered through them by the power of the Holy Ghost (D&C 68:3-4)."

The LDS Church recently clarified this in their newsroom. Part of the document states:

SALT LAKE CITY 4 May 2007:

Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another. The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined.

• Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
• Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
• Because different times present different challenges, modern-day prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day. This follows the biblical pattern (Amos 3:7), in which God communicated messages and warnings to His people through prophets in order to secure their well-being. In our day, President Gordon B. Hinckley has repeatedly emphasized the importance of the family in our increasingly fractional society. In addition, the Church does not preclude future additions or changes to its teachings or practices. This living, dynamic aspect of the Church provides flexibility in meeting those challenges. According to the Articles of Faith, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”

I recently presented my research on this very topic. Some of the confusion comes because many don't understand what consitutes doctrine. For something to be "official doctrine" it must be voted upon and sustained in a general body of Latter-day saints, according to the Doctrine and covenants. Therefore, most of the doctrine that is quoted above does not represent the church's teachings. There are five types of "Mormon" doctrine

1. Canonical doctrines – these are found in the LDS scriptures, including the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price
2. Official doctrines – President of the church approved AND typically sustained. Examples of this are "Orgin and Destiny of Man, Proclamation on the Family, etc.
3. Authoritative statements – these are statements by church leaders that try to explain doctrines to the best of our understanding (see this topic and other items referred to above)
4. Other True doctrines that fall out of the duty of the church to teach (ie, gravity, etc.)
5. Folk doctrines or popular doctrines – common beliefs which are simply not true or misguided, OR may be true but not scriptural that are perpetuated even if recanted. (ie what it means to become "a god" etc.

We all need a reminder, as the encyclopedia of Mormonism states: "The Prophet Joseph Smith received and shared his doctrinal understanding line upon line, from the time of his first vision in 1820 to his death in 1844. In many instances, his own understanding was progressively enhanced." So too has Mormon doctrine changed and expanded. Anyone who says that LDS church doctrine hasn't changed doesn't understand the idea of continuous revelation.

The most recent president of the church in discussing what the church teaches about Theosis says the following in a response to whether or not God the Father was once a man:

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it...I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it." -Time Magazine, 8/4/97, page 56

I hope Jeff Lindsay won't be upset with me quoting from his blog entry on the topic when he writes:

Which prominent Church leaders issued the following statements?

1. "Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, 'I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.' ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality."

1. "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how a man becomes a god."

1. "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life."

1. "He [Christ] became man that we might be made divine."

1. "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."

I know, this is tough - there are so many crazed Church leaders to choose from. I'll make it simple with a multiple choice format. Which of the following men said one or more of the above statements? There may be more than one answer.

A. Joseph Smith

B. Brigham Young

C. Lorenzo Snow

D. Gordon B. Hinckley

E. Larry King

F. Mitt Romney

G. Saint Irenaeus

H. Saint Clement of Alexandria

I. Saint Athanasius

J. Saint Augustine

Hint - the last four.

The bottom line is that we believe we can become gods in the biblical sense. Anyone who expands what this means is outside of the canon of scripture - whether or not it is true if we can create our own worlds or not. Let's all stick to the church doctrine, not authoritative statements of that may have been considered unofficial doctrine by those in past ages before we all realized that not much has been revealed on the topic. -Visorstuff (talk) 00:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Different issue. The distinction between theosis and exaltation is significant; but it's a different topic altogether from the idea of the eternal progression of God. If many Mormons have believed that God has progressed, and still do believe it, is that not significant in the relationship between Mormons and the MC? - I mean, given the assertions made here that it is "not doctrine"? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it significant that many Catholics have an improper understanding of Mary? Should their misunderstanding be stated? Should we dig up some of the "interesting" statements made by Catholic and Orthodox leaders throughout history? Are those statements significant to doctrine?

BTW, I am more than willing to take St. Athanasius at his words; what he states is truth and LDS believe it implicitely. What is suprising is the backpeddling that our orthodox brethren do when faced with these historical statements. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You misunderstand my question; but to answer yours, yes, it is significant that there are misunderstandings on both sides, regarding Mary. And because there is an impulse that will not go away, and should not be suppressed, to be of one mind with one another, these misunderstandings will be stated in the course of time to enable more agreement.

Meaning is what words are to communicate, and what Athanasius says is not what the LDS mean. Words received apart from their meaning, or with different meaning, is misunderstanding. Because you believe that the Father and the Son are different beings you cannot quote Athanasius and "believe it implicitly", unless you fundamentally misunderstand what he said. I'll boldly say that, our pious hope for you is that instead, you have misunderstood what you believe, and in fact believe what Athanasius means although you have not yet understood it.

You have never caught me backpeddling on this; and you won't, because I know what they mean. Every evangelical who speaks of union with Christ, who speaks of the church as his Body, who anticipates seeing the invisible God face to face, of being revealed as "like him" and "sons of God", also knows something of what the fathers meant even if they deny emphatically the words that the fathers use. This matter concerning words and meaning continues to come between us. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the definitions to which we each place is words can lead to miscommunication; however, the words of Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, Augustine, Justin Martyr, Hilary of Poitiers, Gregory of Nyssa and many others were blunt and clear. They did not attempt to mince the words or to soften their impact. That stated "that He would become the Son of man for this purpose, that man also might become the Son of God". "The assumption of our nature was no advancement for God, but His willingness to lower Himself is our promotion, for He did not resign His divinity but conferred divinity on man." Christ sought "to raise humanity to divinity". These statements are echoed in LDS doctrine; they are LDS doctrine. There is no confusion.

It is not surprising to me when many western Christians hear the doctrine of Theosis they are stunned and take it for blasphemy. It is unfortuante that the early patristic fathers were not quoted more often so that the belief did not become so unknown in the west.

I am not saying the persent teaching of theosis is the same as the early fathers. Too many of theologians today water down the doctrine so much that I fear not even Athanaisius would recognize it as the same thing; it has become a shadow of what was once taught with clarity.

I was not insinuating that you personaly were backpeddling; I do not sense that at all. However, I have sensed in many other MC when confronted with the statements of the patristic fathers that spoke words even more clearly than Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 02:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet, there is confusion, if you do not see that they are speaking of the mystery of the Holy Trinity (as epitomized by, not originating from, Nicea) as concerning the revelation of our salvation.

The terminology (of "theosis" or "deification" )is has become unfamiliar (in the West) to the point of neglect. But it's no surprise if it is not prominent. After all, it could be and often is misunderstood to mean what the Mormons mean; which is not orthodox. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 04:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC) - self edit 07:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if i added to confusion, Mark, i was merely using exaltation and theosis and what you call the "eternal progression of God" as examples of things that are not church doctrine, but believed by many within the church. To me what is and what is not doctrine is what needs to be discussed, as the article is full of authoritative statements, not doctrines. It is intersting to me that the Southern Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians can all differ in which doctrines they subscribe to from congregation to congregation based on which church leaders they decide is the most correct, however, they don't allow Mormons to differ in belief from other Mormons. It is true that we are much more centralized and that people have false beliefs about many things, and regardless of how many times Church leaders try to clarify things from Blacks and the Priesthood to Progression of Man or Theosis or whatever. It seems to me to be a double standard, but I can understand why, based on our claim for prophets. But we don't believe that prophets are unfallible in everything they say - but that when they do speak for the Lord, we would be wise to listen. Yes, they declare doctrine, but perhaps more importantly, they give us specific council for our time - For Noah's time it was to get on the ark, for our time it is to protect the family. In both cases, they focused on preparing their people for the coming of the Lord and preaching repentance and faith in the Lord.

Now in regard to the eternal progression of God, let's look back at the statement of LDS Church President Hinckley on eternal progression of God in Time Magazine. As stated before, he said the following in a response to whether or not God the Father was once a man:

"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it...I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."

He better than most knows what is and what is not church doctrine in regard to God once being a man. He was criticized by many anti-mormons about his comments. Strange to me that it has been very recently clarified, yet we are still having this discussion. It is not a doctrine or teaching of the church. -Visorstuff (talk) 04:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I'm the one who added to the confusion; your post was long and I still have not given it the attention and thought that you put into it, so I responded to a part, not the sum, of your comments. I'll remedy that. But, I do follow what you're saying Visorstuff. It is not doctrine. Do you think that it bodes well for the relationship with Mainstream Christians, if you can say to them confidently that the LDS does not teach this? Or, do you think you're being required to go beyond this to say "those Mormons are mistaken, who think this"; and if so, can you envision ever saying that? Or, does Mormonism just not work that way? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 04:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that President Hinckley was saying, 'yes, there is a record that Joseph Smith made these statements, but we don't teach this as doctrine, we don't emphasize it.' I think we don't teach it because JS,Jr. didn't have a chance to fully explain it. However, it's out there, and most LDS who have been paying attention at all believe something different about the Father than what most MC believe. The scripture says that both the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone. We know how the Son got his body, JS,Jr. and several of his successors made statements about how the Father got his body. We can't sweep this under the rug, but I agree that it is important to be clear on what is official doctrine and what is not. It is doctrine that the Father has a body of flesh and bone. 74s181 (talk) 15:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am a LDS that does not believe God was an exalted man; it was something that was never taught to me though I was aware of the toughts of earlier leaders. I understand the logic behind it, but as I have stated before it does not offer any light and adds much confusion. I suspect that we have leaders of the church and many members of the church who do believe this concept, but it is not the doctrine of the Church.

I think the most the Church will ever say is that it does not know; I would be surprised if they would ever declare those individuals who stated such and such came to incorrect conclusions. However, they have done that before (Adam-God theory) so it is still a possbility. It is funny that it gets far more play by those outside of the church than those in the church. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 17:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The LDS claims to add something important to what we thought Christianity was. Here's one thing that Mormonism adds - something significant to us, and yet you are unclear about what it has added. Another thing that it adds is the reasoning that it's absurd to say that God is everywhere, or that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit mutually envelope one another, or that we dwell in the Father, or that the Son dwells in us, because Jesus and the Father have bodies, and they are beings separate from the Holy Ghost - which produces a lot of speculation and uncertainty. I would expect that these issues also get "far more play by those outside" - and yet, this is one of those things that Mormonism adds. What is "funny"? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

What is "funny"? There are different theories about the history of God the Father within LDS, you can see that Storm Rider and I have different views, both about whether or not there is official doctrine on this, and about what the teaching is, yet we both realize that this particular issue is not a core doctrine, it is not something to lose sleep or get emotional about. And yet, MC zoom in on this and other similar teachings as if they were the defining doctrines of LDS. Yes, the Father has a body of flesh and bone, that is in the D&C, and that is a really major difference and we should talk about it. But the things that JS,Jr. taught in the King Follett discourse and the comments made by successor prophets may be interesting, but are not considered defining by LDS. What is defining is that the men who made the various statement are, in fact, prophets, like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, etc. 74s181 (talk) 20:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If Christian teaching is displaced by Mormon speculation, this is just as interesting as if Christian teaching is replaced by Mormon teaching. So, I still don't understand the bewilderment if we "zoom in" on things that pretend to replace orthodoxy. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"...things that pretend to replace orthodoxy" LDS perpsective is somewhat different. LDS have prophets that prevent theological speculations from becoming 'orthodoxy' without anyone noticing. We've seen what can happen to the church without a living prophet to prevent this. 74s181 04:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the things that many LDS believe that are significantly different from MC belief are relevant and should have a place in the article, but I don't think that this should be the primary focus of the article. 74s181 04:24, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I've commented often, in our discussions, that a theological comparison may not give an accurate picture, or at least not a complete one. However, the fact that you think of the Trinity dogma as speculation is very much at the center of what we must focus on - because it is tied to the enormous difference in the way that we think of doctrine, of "tradition" and "deposit of faith" as something stable and increasingly clarified in conflicts with doubt, compared to the almost in-the-moment idea that comes with "follow the prophet". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:28, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Review opinion

After reading this article I must say that quite a lot of work needs to be done to it. Not only is the work POV but it is unabashidly so. The page seems to only be here to provide a space for mormons to show up and try to prove that their religion is Christianity. Someone reading this page who had never heard of the mormons before might be wondering why it even needs to be mentioned. This main point of the reason for the existance of the page in the first place should be stated and clarified. If you are going to go the comparisons route, not a bad way in the least, then you have to compare both form and substance. Not only the practices but also beliefs must be shown for what they are. Those people that do not hold that the mormons are part of Christianity should clearly state why and the reason needs to be more then just that they are not part of your own church. I am sure that there is a ton of sources for both sides. I also have an issue with some of the prose that needs to be re read by the writers and edited. You should not be Ad Hoc ing it but thinking about what you want to write and planning it out before you sit down at the computer. Get a real encyclopedia and read some random articles so you can get the idea of the style you should be trying to achieve and get used to it. Let it sort of sink in. It can still be your own version of it but there is a way to be in the groove and certainly out of groove.

Obviously, there is controvercy and many people do not agree about the subject matter. The page should not be seeking to resolve the issue. It should present the controvercy, the major thinkers that have contributed to it and factually referance statements concerning it. The way it stands now, it looks to me that Wikipedia itself is trying to convince me that the mormons are christians. The page should not be going that far. From my personal point of view, I see a lot of things in mormonism that I personally think are completely incompatible with Christianity, the main of course being the racism. I know that mormons hold a belief about some so called apostacy but from my point of view the so called Great Apostasy was when the protestants decided they wanted to worship a book instead of God. I hold that only Catholics are Christians and anyone not Catholic is an apostate. They may want to claim to be Christians or immitate Christians but all protestants including mormons just are not Christians. That is my view and the doctrine that I accept as fact. This obviously makes me biased and I therefore will not touch the page to edit anything. Along the same lines, it certainly seems odd to come across a page that is set up the way this one is. Now I know you all hate me for what I said and are now planning to track me down and kill me but before you do, take my earlier suggestions in seriousness and improve this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.127.251.137 (talk) 06:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we're going to come across this general objection frequently - that part that shouldn't just be ignored. We could flip the intro, and then the objection might switch to the other side: "Mormonism and Christianity are separate religions ...". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I've remodeled the introductory sentence, to avoid the suggestion that Wikipedia adopts the Mormon perspective. It could be improved. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't like that edit at all. The previous introduction was quite clear on what Mormons say and believe. The new edit has that qualifier of "tradition" and then makes the heavily POV statement they are different religions. In this context there is only one religion and that is Christianity; within it there are various churches with a diverse set of beliefs. I believe that to be both factual and neutral. A Muslim would not say LDS were not Christian nor most other world relgions. The only people who want to put Mormonism outside the door are other Christians.

Also, the above viewpoint stated by the Anon is obvious POV and a narrow one at that. How many Catholics do you know that would disown all other Christians to blithely? This is a thought process that was common during the dark ages, but is not a prevalent thought today or am I mistaken? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 18:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Anon can't help us much. However, all that I've done is splice the two ends of the introduction into one sentence. I've presented the Mormon POV with force and certainty. What is "heavily POV" about the statement, that Christianity is traditionally understood to mean something different than Mormonism? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I've re-asserted the edit, incorporating your observation that it is "only ... other Christians" who want to say that Mormonism adds something that is not Christianity to Christianity. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This type of editing only leads to edit wars. I request that you revert it, bring the language to the discussion page and work collaboratively with others before making this type of edit to the introduction. It is too controversial and too important. If I go so far as to revert you and explain my revert it would seem like it would be time to go more slowly.

The new language is better, but I am still uncomfortable with it. The first part is out of context; McConkie was stating that Mormonism and Christianity are identical, not that the body of Christianity and Mormonism are identical. It is not a correct statement as it currently reads. The second part may be an accurate statement, but most churches do not use that language.

This is a highly controversial topic and a more cooperative approach is demanded by all. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 19:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I would not have understood McConkie to have been speaking in terms of bodies at all, until you mentioned it. What I have done, by making an incremental change is certainly going more slowly than reverting edits. I don't know what you're asking for. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the language of the first sentence, to avoid casting McConkie's statement in the wrong context. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks like some people have been polishing the article and some of it looks better. The opening line is a difficult matter and all I can suggest is to change Christian Tradition to Non Mormon Christians. This change I think would leave space for those who think that mormons are christians to be included but also for those that think that mormons are not christians. As it stands now it seems to lean on the Mormons are not christians side but I think the change I suggested or another better one would leave it ambiguous enough so that Wiki is not seen to be taking sides.

I still have a problem with some of the prose and some of the organization. I had to read the article twice and think about it before I could figure out the real controversies being talked about were. The article needs to clearly state what the objections to mormonism are that objectors think excludes it from christianity. One place is called the Nature Of Man but it is my understanding that just about every protestant religion has a different opinion about that. The controversy that is actually being talked about is not really the nature of man but is centered on the mormon belief that God was a human being before becoming God. Now I do not expect us all to agree on this and I do not expect Wiki try to resolve it but it seems to me that the very nature of this article needs for the controversies to be more explicitly stated. Some of the writting and sources are very good here at times but as a reader I feel a wonder as to why the conversation was happing to begin with. I really hope that you take these suggestions as positive to improve the article. I really can only give you a readers perspective.

On another note, when mentioning mainstream christianity, I sometimes was wondering if you were refering to the protestant view or the Liturgical (Catholic, Orthodox) view. I know that we can only put what we know and can source but there is also a lot of thinking and teology of some of the more eastern liturgical churches like Coptics or Armanians that is being overlooked. I do not say that we should go through the article and nit pick the heck out of it, these are just some things to think about. Mention of the Ante Nicien fathers would also improve the article in some places.

This article can be a very good article and it does address some important subject matter. I would really like to come back and read the article after some more work has been done to it.

---

--219.127.251.137 (talk) 04:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

We will not say Non Mormon Christians. I would really like to see the LDS explanations greatly abbreviated, and more focused on the point of departure from tradition. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, non-Mormon Christians just does not work. There are simply Christians and non-Christians. There are certainly disputes on who or what is a Christian, but Christian is the only label we use to describe a follower of Christ. However, even as I write that I recognize that is a poor definition in Christian society, which gets to the root of one of the controversies we have in this article.

I would like to see a section that explains the MC perspective on the purpose of life; i.e. why we are here. This would be natural lead section into other differences between Mormonism and orthodox church doctrines. Thoughts? --Storm Rider ^(talk) 22:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Something like this?

• What is the chief end of Man? Man's chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. (Westminster Shorter Catechism Q/A 1)
• Why did God make you? God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next. (Baltimore Catechism Q/A 6)
• The life of man - to know and love God: God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life. (Catechism of the Catholic Church Prologue, I.1 )
• God created man according to His image, intending him to be like Him. ("Orthodox Catechism" Creation of Man] ¶ 5)

— Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I would also note that the article still does not say that Mormons are not Christians. The most that can be surmised from the three introductory sections is that, following the tradition would lead to the conclusion that Mormonism corrupts or departs from Christianity. This might suggest to a follower of tradition, the conclusion that Mormons are not Christians; but a reader might as easily conclude that Mormons are in two minds, in doubt of the Christian faith through belief in Mormonism. The article does not push the reader to one or the other conclusion. I think that a conclusive or definitive answer to "the question", either yay or nay, is a matter for apologists and teachers, and not for Wikipedia. We may report these conclusions, but we may not adopt them. Do you agree? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 07:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this answer does distinguish the difference between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity quite well. The difference explains a great deal about why beliefs are different; there is overlap, but it is a secondary emphasis.

We do a disservice without including the actual positions of major churches vis-avis the LDS church/Mormonism. As you say, we should report and go no further. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 17:03, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How would you answer your question about the "purpose of life", and how would your answer distinguish the LDS from the mainstream? How would your answer explain "a great deal" about the difference? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I've made a few minor edits to the intro. Let me know what you think. Mpschmitt1 12:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It is bad style to bicker back and forth. If the first sentence does this, it should be fixed rather than made worse. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 15:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Weasel words blur the meaning and evade verifiability. "Many Christian traditions" is an entirely different statement, than "Traditional Christianity". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 15:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Not every Christian tradition has an official position on Mormonism. Some are more concerned with teaching their own doctrine than criticizing that of others. Again I'm led to ask what Traditional Christianity is exactly since there have been and are now widespread disagreeements within it's own ranks over the very issues that cause some (nay, many) Christian traditions to label Mormons as unorthodox. But the paragraph is fine as you re-rendered it Mark, so I'll leave that as it is. Though I disagree that "Many Christian traditions" is a weaselly expression. Quite the contrary actually if soleley for the reason that "Traditional Christianity" seems a non-entity when you get into the minutae...A term used to tie together a wide range of disparate Christian systems loosely tied together by 4th and 5th century creedal declarations, but who in many instances have been as historically critical of eachother as they are now of Mormonism. I'm not saying this to be provocative by the way, so hopefully it comes across the right way. If you'd care to delve more into this topic and provide counterpoint to what I'm saying, it might be an interesting thread. :-) Mpschmitt1 01:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Very few of them do Mpschmitt1, but neither do they need to. The reason is, it's a matter of definition. Mormons have defined themselves outside of Trinitarianism, outside of Traditional Christianity. If Trinitarianism is, by definition, Traditional Christianity, then Mormonism by definition excludes itself from it. The divided groups in that tradition have indeed been, are are still, critical of one another; but not on account of a departure from Trinitarianism, as with Mormonism. "Many Christian traditions" is exactly what would be meant by "weaselly" in the context of that comparison, just as it would be weaselly to say "many Mormon groups" in the place of "LDS". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It also is not relevant if there is dissent of some from what their own tradition teaches, if we are comparing their tradition and not the spectrum of conformity to it. For example, if it is the tradition that God created, it is outside of our comparison to discuss those who deny that God created, against their tradition. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:24, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Yet if you asked a Baptist, a Oneness Pentacostal and a Catholic to discuss what the Trinity is, you would most assuredly end up with some points of disagreement, no? So in part, my question is: If strict conformity with some Trinitarian definition is requisite for admitance into the Traditional Christianity tent, why isn't there a consistent definition. And who gets to decide what that standard is since there is still wiggle room that allows for Oneness Pentacostalism and other Evangelical traditions to play nicely. To me it seems the Oneness Pentacostal "one in person" definition is just the Mormon issue in the oposite direction. And yet they are not declared to be un-Christian... Splitting hairs I know and probably not that important to our article to continue discussing it, but if you have thoughts on this, I'd be interested (you can post to my talk page). It's something that's perplexed me for some time now.Mpschmitt1 02:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

A "Oneness Pentecostal" is not a Trinitarian; and the Baptist tradition does not define the Trinity differently than the Catholics. And, as I've said many times, the bane of any meaningful treatment of these issues will show itself every time the discussion turns to whether Mormons are Christians or not. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 04:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I know, I know, I don't want to get us off that conversation again, but I still have the sticking point here for certain reasons:

1. The understanding of nature of God on the part of the Baptists is not exactly identical to that of the Catholics. For instance, a Catholic would say that prayer to Saints and to Mary is as effacacious as prayer to the Father (I was raised Catholic by the way), but the Baptist would say that God always desires to be addressed directly (to one of the three persons in the Trinity with no other intermediaries). This would be two different views of how God desires to be addressed, but it is an also a difference in the understanding of an attribute of God. This is admittedly not a very big deal in an of itself, but I'm sure if you dug into the deeper regions of theology for both parties, you would find a number of small differences that add up to a big question: God is who he is, there is no changing Him. So on each and every point regarding his nature, one side or the other must be right or they are both wrong. So who gets to ultimately decide? (A correct understanding of the nature of God being a litmus test for discerning a true Christian from an imposter)
2. Okay so further research has made me understand that Oneness Pentacostals are not Trinitarian (my bad there). So then, my question is: Are they Christian? And if so, why? (And what is the difference that makes their theology close enough to the "pale of orthodoxy", but leaves the Mormons labeled as a cult.

I think these kinds of questions are important because they lead to the question I've raised before about an exaggerated sharpness to the distinction between Mormonism and "every other branch of Christianity", since "Traditional Christianity" is not the monolithic body that the article seems to need it to be for it's point to be made in the strongest way possible.Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

1. The difference you're pointing out is off the issue you're drawing attention to. The view of God is the same. The idea of the duty (of worship) required of by God is different.
2. Modalists are not orthodox. Their teaching concerning God leaves God unknown.
3. Everyone is made so that they feel themselves alternately the center of all and the most left out of all. People who use words like "cult" will use it liberally, you can be sure.

Trinitarianism is what it is; and the churches that hold to it differ with Mormonism in a consistent way. The article does not pretend that there are no divisions - attention is drawn to this frequently, so that it is unreasonable to say that it presents a view of monolithic unanimity. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 07:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No you're right there. I think the article has really improved over the time I've watched it (much of that improvement has been your doing too, Mark :-). I didn't mean to make a categorical statement there about the article, though I did anyway... What I meant to say is that the article would be much better able to draw a clear line of demarcation between Traditional Christianity and Mormonism if:

1. All other Christian traditions agreed down to the minutae on all points of doctrine that, in the minds of some, makes Mormonism un-Christian, and
2. Traditional Christianity had a single duly ordained authority structure that governed the entirety of Church direction, doctrine and practice, that could be traced back in an unbroken line to the original Church.

To which you might understandably reply, "Yah, so what?" But what I was trying to say was that since neither 1 nor 2 exist in Traditional Christianity at present, one is left to question by what authority Traditional Christianity decides that Mormonism has gotten it wronger (technical term) in a way that makes it wronger enough (another technical term) to no longer be welcome at the table. I look through history and see instances where the Wesleyans, the Lutherans, the Catholics, the Southern Baptists, the Northern Baptists, etc, etc, were all on the receiving end of similar persecution for some difference in theology or another to what Mormons have historically received, and then I see a pattern emerging of (after a long time, sometimes centuries) gradual acceptance and room at the table for that Christian perspective that was previously considered heretical. Many were burned at the stake in Medieval days for teaching things that Evangelical Protestantism proudly declares today. I wonder whether, with time, as other Christians become more accurately and intimately acquainted with Mormonism that there won't be a similar tempering of criticism and concilliatory compromise. To be sure neither side is ever going to stop declaring "We are the Church of Christ", but I think there is much room to grow in the way of mutual appreciation and that is beignning to happen as more accurate information is shared about Mormonism. Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

< It would be easier to compare Mormonism to Romanism or Orthodoxy; but this is not the arena of contest so to speak. If we write an article comparing Mormonism to in something smaller than that arena, or different, then those who expect to find insight into the contest, who are familiar with its boundaries, would come here and say "this does not describe it". But as the issue is framed here, while it cannot tell the whole story without telling too many different stories, the article at least tells the story of "Mormonism and Christianity" in its outlines, as it is being enacted in the world. And, as such, it gives (or rather, it ought to give) a partial but clarifying explanation of the confusion you speak of above. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Nuclear issue, part II.

Mark, your questions (06:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)) make me see the nuclear issue in a different way. I'm going to try another summary. 74s181 15:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

1. All Christians, LDS or not, and for that matter, all Abrahamic religions and many others believe that there is an entity who created the Earth and placed us here for some purpose. Christians, both LDS and non-LDS have many beliefs in common on this topic that are different from other, non-Christian religions.
2. Within non-LDS Christianity or, IOW, MC, there is diversity of thought on church organization, including forms of worship, hierarchical structure of the church, etc. Most (not all, see below) elements of LDS church organization can be found in some MC churches.
3. Within MC there is also diversity of thought on good works or, what man is supposed to do in this life. Most (not all, see below) of what LDS teach about good works can be found in some MC churches.
4. However, MC are pretty unified on what God and man are and their relationship to each other, and the LDS view is significantly different, so different as to be shocking or even offensive to many MC.

So, a different view of the nuclear issue. It is a subtle difference, but I think it is a more useful view. Rather than saying "The nuclear issue is the Trinity", we say "The nuclear issue is who God and Man are." Here is a possible outline for the article, organized around this idea:

1. What beliefs are common between LDS and MC? Brief statements with main article tags on common beliefs, including the existence of God, Old Testament prophecy, coming of Jesus Christ, his life and ministry, death, resurrection, atonement for sin.
2. Who is God? Brief summary of the different views, carefully distinguishing official doctrine from speculation, with 'main article' tags pointing elsewhere for more details.
3. What is the purpose of God? LDS have a clear statement on this, with all of our discussion I'm not sure we've ever talked about what MC believe about God's reasons for creating man.
4. Who is Man? Again, brief summary with 'main article' tags.
5. What is the purpose of Man? Current article refers to LDS Plan of Salvation, I don't know if there is a similar article on the MC view, maybe one needs to be created. Mark made some statements above that could be a good start.
6. Differences in church organization. This would include the 'not all' mentioned in #2 above. Things like continual revelation, a living prophet, additional scripture, and the LDS definition of 'one true church', vs the deposit of faith, importance of tradition, role of theology, and the MC definition of 'one true church'.
7. Differences in good works. This would include the 'not all' mentioned in #3 above. Things like general ordination of men to the priesthood, lay ministry, family history, and vicarious ordinances for the dead on the LDS side. I'm not sure what would go on the MC side, that is, what 'good works' MC practice that LDS do not. Maybe a response to LDS practices? But that could turn into a debate.

The lead would then reflect the general outline. I think the McConkie statement is good, then briefly mention the nuclear issue, and touch on some of the other, less signficant differences.

Much of the current article fits somewhere in the outline above. I think that if it doesn't fit, it should be discarded. The focus should be on what it is that causes MC to consider Mormonism as something other than another Christian church. I think that the who / what of God and man are the nuclear issue. A few other LDS practices are also radically different from what any other present day Christian church does. 74s181 15:18, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that you're focusing on what is of the most interest to you; not necessarily what the article should explain. I don't think that the MC should be a focus at all, if the article is about Mormonism. On the Mormon side, we should be emphasizing the reasons that Mormons provide for their belief that the LDS is the restoration of Christianity. I don't think that Mormon theology is necessarily the most enlightening aspect of Mormonism. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 00:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

"...what is of the most interest to you..." Mark, I think that the article lacks a central focus. I'm trying to find a focal point and also figure out where everything else fits. The 'nuclear issue' I'm looking for would become the key focus. From my personal perspective, the most important thing is continual revelation for LDS, and lack thereof for MC, I see this as the cause, and all the other differences as effects. However, based on your comments I thought that the issue of who God and man are would be more immediately recognizable as a difference to MC. It is also is very important to LDS, so I thought it would be more nuclear.

"On the Mormon side...LDS is the restoration of Christianity." The only problem with this is that the affirmitive argument is a matter of faith, either you accept JS,Jr. as a prophet or you don't. The only 'logical' arguments are negative, i.e., 'MC is in error because of X, Y, Z, therefore, a restoration was necessary'. 74s181 16:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The article lacks central focus because it doesn't stick to the focus that it establishes in the leading sections of the article. Also, the descriptions of the LDS views are consistently over-long. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that this defect, a lack of consistent approach, model or focus, is largely repaired now. Do you agree? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the changes are useful and a step in the right direction. One glaring problem now is repetition, there are three separate explanations of JS,Jr. and the restoration, one after the other. Even as a LDS, I think this is a bit excessive.<g> Also, I see a lot of stuff further down that in light of recent discussions seems pretty unimportant. But I'd like to figure out if we're going to start with continuous revelation or with the Godhead before trying to fix this. 74s181 (talk) 04:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've merged two of the sections. I think that it's most accessible to the topic, to begin with Joseph Smith and go from there. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"...if the article is about Mormonism." In your view, does the article have a MC side? I'm curious what it would be. If the LDS position is summarized as you describe, what is the summary statement for the MC position? Probably the 'deposit of faith', right? Maybe the whole thing is as simple as 'continuous revelation' vs 'continuous tradition', does that work? 74s181 16:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much just that simple on that one issue of comparison, yes. And there's probably no other way of contrasting the two in a more vivid way. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC) -- — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I've revised the section describing the difference in attitude, toward "personal guidance", to better reflect some of the things that we've been talking about lately. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 22:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm ok with defining the core or nuclear issue as "continuous revelation" vs "continuous tradition". Mark, it sounds like you're ok with this. How does everyone else feel? 74s181 23:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the wisdom, or of the "neutrality" and "verifiability" of saying that this is "the core" or "the nuclear" issue. Certainly it shows up pervasively, but why should we not say that God Himself is the core and central issue? I'd like to say that. Why shouldn't we say that the promises of Christ to his Church are at the center or core of the issue? We may adopt a working paradigm, but I don't think that we should pretend that Wikipedia is the source of definitive knowledge concerning the "core or nuclear issue". Am I overstating your intention? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 23:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that the article should provide a side-by-side comparison of Mormonism and Mainstream Christianity. Rather than a "central or core" issue, it should be a collection of aspects of the two religions. It should be limited to those that are (a) important to at least one of the religions and (b) significant differences between the two religions. The explanations should be brief with links to main articles. Any important topics where both pretty much agree should be noted briefly in a "common beliefs" section.

It seems to me the discussion should revolve around how to organize the topics. Which topic is most important will most likely vary from person to person. -- wrp103 (Bill Pringle) ^(Talk) 01:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the two-part structure, to encourage re-organization of the various comparisons so that those things that are more "central" or "pervasive" might be ordered and arranged together, in a more orderly or logical way. The idea of continuous revelation, for example, touches on several issues including modern scripture and Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet, as well as the idea of personal guidance and calling. I would also like to encourage the style to spread through the whole article, of giving explanations on comparable issues of importance without the interference of rebuttal. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding "verifiability" or whether the nuclear issue would "vary from person to person", Jeffrey R. Holland gave a talk in the last general conference where he said:

...there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood.

So, a current, recognized expert in TCoJCoLdS says that the LDS perception is that the most controversial or 'nuclear' issues are the LDS view of the Godhead, and the LDS belief in continuing revelation. The majority of Elder Holland's talk focuses on the LDS view of the Godhead. Is this the way we want to go? These two key issues, then some of the other significant issues? If so, which goes first, Godhead / Trinity, or Continuous revelation / Deposit of Faith? Personally, I think that continuous revelation is the root cause, and the restoration of a more correct doctrine of the Godhead is a fruit. From our discussions I suspect that the MC position may be reversed. 74s181 (talk) 04:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

You "suspect", as in "accuse"? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 16:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean when you use the word "accuse" that way. What I meant was, I suspect that MC would say the LDS Godhead doctrine 'fruit' is false, proving that the LDS continuous revelation 'tree' is also false. But I'm willing to go either way, or, maybe it is an asymetrical comparison after all, that is, the LDS 'POV' is continuous revelation, apostasy from the primitive church. Then Godhead, and relationship between God and man. while the MC 'POV' is, ? I'm going to start a new discussion on this. 74s181 (talk) 18:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

When you speak of "root cause" you are no longer measuring what is "more controversial"; you are then speaking of causality. To say that one's view of revelation is caused by their view of God (which can only be based on revelation), is to accuse of reversing doctrine and revelation.

The MC POV is that adding to the faith which is deposited in the church is "innovation", which adds nothing but doubt, and is apostasy, "anathema", and "anti-Christ". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

While at church last night I had another thought about the nuclear issue, and what you said above about "innovation" fits right into it. I know you're probably tired of this, but please, bear with me one more time. 74s181 (talk) 05:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• LDS believe that the New Testament prophesies both an apostasy and a restoration. LDS believe that this apostasy occurred and that the authority, certain critical doctrines and practices given to the primitive church by Jesus Christ and the original apostles were lost. LDS further believe that God called JS,Jr. to be the prophet to restore the authority, doctrines, and practices of the original primitive church. 74s181 (talk) 05:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• MC believe that the New Testament promises that Christ's church cannot be destroyed. MC believe that no apostasy occurred, and that all of the the authority, doctrines and practices given to the primitive church by Jesus Christ and the original apostles still exist in the church today. MC further believe that what JS,Jr. claimed as 'revelation' is, in fact, 'innovation', and is itself apostasy from the true faith. 74s181 (talk) 05:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you think? If I haven't got the MC position exactly right, am I close? Is a symmetrical comparison possible? 74s181 (talk) 05:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

We do not believe that a general apostasy has ever happened in the sense that, the church ceased to exist, or that this is even possible. If a branch is cut from a tree, and instead of being burned it is watered so that it might bear roots and be planted, to grow and bear fruit, then, the life that is in that severed branch testifies to the life that was in the tree when it became severed. The tree may say to the branch, "you have no part in me"; but the branch, if it is alive, addresses the life of the tree and says, "you are our Father,though Abraham does not know us,and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name." — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

We are assured that the church is like sheep in the midst of wolves. We are warned that there will false prophets arising from among ourselves, speaking twisted things, to consume followers of Christ for the fulfillment of their own ambition. We are warned that enemies will appear in the church, "not sparing the flock"; and yet, we are commended to the word of God, which is able to keep us. And so, we are prepared to expect that apostasy will happen repeatedly, even continuously; but we are also assured that Christ will not abandon the church, and therefore that the church is also repeatedly and even continuously restored. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

However, there are strains in the Anabaptist and Baptist movements that really do teach that, the church disappeared from the earth - or that, the line of the true church continued among various excluded sects, through the ages. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Your comments have been very helpful. I've had a hard time reconciling 'no apostasy is possible' with the fact of the reformation. Now I see that my understanding of the MC position was incomplete. 74s181 (talk) 00:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I was interested in your use of the tree and the severed branch to illustrate the relationship between the original church and the various 'branches' we see today. Many references to the vineyard, the olive tree, branches, pruning and grafting, and fruit can be found in both the Old and New Testaments, LDS believe that most of these refer to a prophecy lost from the Bible but preserved in the Book of Mormon, Jacob chapter 5. A couple of key points, branches on the mother tree go bad, producing evil fruit even though the tree is good, branches are cut from the mother tree and transplanted elsewhere, some produce good fruit, some evil fruit. 'Wild' branches are grafted into the mother tree and are 'tamed' and bring forth good fruit, at least for a time. Some of the branches that had been transplanted elsewhere are re-grafted back into the mother tree, with mixed results. But the goodness of the roots of the mother tree is never at issue. Anyway, I hadn't looked at Jacob 5 for a while, thanks for reminding me about the olive tree. 74s181 (talk) 00:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

So, Mark, when you say that it is impossible for Christ's true church to cease to exist, are you referring to the roots, or, IOW, the original source of the church? If so, I would agree with that, and point out that while the 'wild' branches may be grafted into the mother tree and bring forth good fruit, and while the 'tame' branches can be cut from the tree and transplanted elsehere, bringing forth good fruit for a time, it is impossible for the 'wild' branches that have not been transplanted into the mother tree to bring forth good fruit. Not as obvious, but I think also true, if the tame branches begin to bring forth evil fruit after being severed from the root they cannot on their own return to good fruit, they must first be grafted back into the mother tree. 74s181 (talk) 00:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, would it be more accurate to say:

• MC believe that the New Testament promises that Christ's church has been and will be protected and preserved by the power of the word of God. MC acknowledge that mistakes have been made in the past and will be made in the future, but believe that a general apostasy is impossible, and that all of the authority, doctrines and practices given to the primitive church by Jesus Christ and the original apostles still exist in the church today. MC further believe that what JS,Jr. claimed as 'revelation' is, in fact, 'innovation', and is an example of apostasy from the true faith. 74s181 (talk) 00:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that it would be better and clearer to explain the catholic view as the article already does, that the promises of Christ to the Church will not be broken. And, I would rather that what the church teaches about Mormonism and Joseph Smith would not be pretended to be so direct. It would be unlikely that a direct "official" reference to Mormonism, per se, may be found. The story of Mormonism is simply not situated in relation to our own, in such a position that we must refer to your faith in order to explain our own. The article states it plainly enough, that the LDS idea is excluded presumptively by the contradiction of the faith. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so I took the hint and shoveled a bit. Still a bit messy. 74s181 (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed two-part structure

I've removed the sub-heads that separated "contrasts" from "comparisons". In the process, I also reduced several of the mainstream views, in order to focus these explanations on what may be nearer to the point of departure being discussed. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I still think that the approach of "comparable beliefs", followed by a description that hopefully typifies the disagreement, has proven to be a productive approach in these talk pages, and I would like to see it reproduced in the article. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Re-structure

I've completed a massive re-structuring of the article, re-writing in some cases the Mainstream views (which are still largely unsupported), grouping some related subjects as sub-heads. I have separated most of the discussion of LDS views from the discussion of "mainstream" views. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Trinitarian divisions

I think that the article lacks a direct explanation of the difference in attitude toward the divisions of trinitarian churches. I would suppose that these divisions are the most obvious aspect of what the LDS mean by "apostasy"; and they are the hardest to discuss from the "mainstream" side, because the three main divisions are fundamentally in disagreement about the nature of their division and the issues that must be resolved to heal them. And, in the case of Protestantism, the very idea of Christian unity is prone to be disembodied. This separation, even if deemed necessary, is confusing to describe and a "scandal" to the world; and it is often presented as the LDS trump-card in debate. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Not a trump card so much as a very important question to be resolved, since, in the LDS view, a key aspect of the true Church of Christ is that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism (Ephesians 4:5, Mosiah 18:21). The Church is to be a single body (1 Corinthians 12), where all parts of the body work in unison under the head of the Church (Jesus Christ ~ Ephesians 5, D+C 33:5), who plays an active revelatory role, working directly with his appointed leaders and physically visiting when necessary (Mark 16:20, 1 Corinthians 12:27-30, Ephesians 2:20, D+C 76:22-24, D+C 110). The Church is to teach a single doctrine that is uncorrupt, sound, pure; and full of gravity, sincerity and godliness (Titus 2:1-10, 1 Timothy 1:1-10;6:1-12). And this doctrine must be confirmed by the Holy Ghost in the heart of the believer through the believer's obedience to and active, daily participation in it (John 7:17). The core of this doctrine is to be based on faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the conferral of the right to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands of the priesthood of God (1 Tim 4:14, Heb 6:2). And without this priesthood authority (which can only be conferred by proper Divine Authority), "the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh" (D+C 84:20-21). So it is a pain point for the LDS to see so much schism in what ought to be a single unified body under Christ. We view the current schisms as the direct result of (and evidence of) this loss of divine authority delegated to man in the world and believe that is a testament to the necessity of the restoration of that authority. Without revelation and proper priesthood authority, the Church drifted apart and the schisms we see today are the result of that drifting. (Back to the parable of the men on their way to Iceland). So it's not that we desire to throw a trump card or win a debate. We desire that all men and women everywhere would gain a testimony of this restoration and be able to receive the fullness of the blessings of the gospel available to mankind through the restored priesthood authority of God. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is what makes that priesthood authority effective in the ordinances of the Gospel. Every other doctrine of the Church stands upon the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world and rose from the dead. Without that fact, nothing else would matter. Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

But it is a trump-card. It is brought out regardless of the topic in a way that suggests that merely mentioning it nullifies the discussion. So, it seems that it should have more than passing mention in the article. Or, it may be because I'm a Protestant that it's brought up this way. Perhaps you would speak differently to a Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No, we would speak the same message regardless of the particular branch of Christianity. The message would be the same: "God has restored his Church and priesthood authority on the Earth. Take all the good that you have gathered in learning and testimony in your Churches and let the restored Church of Christ fill in what you yet lack for a fullness of joy." (a rough paraphrase of the general message of the Church). I think you're right in that it becomes a trump card in some conversations (How do you continue a discussion with a person who just keeps saying "God says you're wrong, end of story."?) and that is unfortunate. I have a good friend who is an Evangelical Protestant and has described our conversations as "peering together into the heart of God". To be sure there are differences neither one of us will budge on, but there are also marvelous similarities in our faith and knowledge of God, and in our testimony that we have been rescued by our Savior Jesus Christ. Some would say, "But you believe in a different Jesus." Strange that neither of us feels that that is remotely true while we discuss what God has testified to us by his Spirit about our Savior. We can both see the working of the Holy Ghost in eachother's lives. We also have many comonalities in the way we experience and recognize God's love and blessings in our lives. My friend is one of the most godly men I know and if anyone were to ask me "Is he Christian?", I would be the first to jump to my feet and give a firm answer in the affirmative. My relationship with him has strenghtened me tremendoulsly spiritually. So it is not that there is no good in other Churches, nor is it that God's hand is not actively working among his children of other faiths. It is that God has provided a vehicle for restoring the fullness of the Gospel to the Earth with all of it's attendant blessings. I have witnessed things in my life because of this restored Gospel that make it impossible for me to deny the hand of God in it. And because I have had these experiences I am more inclined to encourage truth in others wherever I see it sprouting, whether or not that person will accept Mormonism as Christianity restored. For perhaps some day they will. If a person is ready to be encouraged in Christ in any way, I'll do it, and let the Holy Spirit guide from there. Mpschmitt1 (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no "different Jesus"; there is only faith and doubt. But have you forgotten the question I've asked? I mean, the topic I'm hoping you'll address. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 03:27, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the LDS side of this question is already addressed in the LDS discussion of the "priesthood". I don't want to expand my own essay in the article about how different the concept of priesthood seems to be, in the LDS. But, it might help if we discuss it more directly here, so that we might select appropriate resources. First though, is it true that the "priesthood" is what you would point to as the "answer" to these divisions I'm pointing to? And is it correct that you think of "priesthood" especially in terms of "authorization" and "authority"? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 03:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you're asking, but here is a capsule summary of the LDS view of 'priesthood'. The Priesthood is the power and authority to act in the name of God. Jesus Christ held it, is the author of it, he is a "high priest after the order of Melchizedek forever". He conferred the priesthood upon his apostles who were then able to perform the same kinds of miracles that Jesus did, but more importantly, were able to preach with authority, baptise, and confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. Peter received additional priesthood keys which authorized him to lead the church and gave him the power and authority to bind on earth and in heaven, see Mattew 16:19. I think this scripture is very important to Catholics, I don't know what it means to Protestants. 74s181 (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A typical Protestant view is that Jesus meant by "this rock", the profession that Peter made that Jesus is the Son of God. Personally, I think that this is a strained interpretation, but not entirely incredible. I assume, as others might, that Jesus meant that Peter is implicated in "this rock", and it was for that reason that he was given the name, "rock" - and yet, there is a disproportion in this promise, between the little rock that Peter is and the great foundation stone upon which the church is founded. Thus, Jesus also says, "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you": what Peter has said, which earns him this acclaim, is not from himself; and therefore, Peter is not himself the basis of the church to which Jesus is ultimately referring, but is put in the position of appearing so (as are the other Apostles). — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mind you, I don't mean that they "appear so" in an empty way. The Apostles, and the bishops and elders who receive ordination from them, are made really foundational by the Holy Spirit who formed this faith first in them and afterward in us in communion with them. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The LDS understanding concerning this scripture may be useful in helping to clarify the LDS position on revelation and authority. To paraphrase in my own words:

...for you have not learned this by the teaching and learning of men (flesh and blood), but by revelation from the Father.

And I say unto you that you are the small rock (Petros), but upon this rock (Petra), the bedrock of Jesus Christ and revelation of Him will I build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give you the power and authority (keys) to build up and administer my church (kingdom), along with the sealing power (bind and loose), that the ordinances you perform on earth will be acknowledged and of full effect in heaven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74s181 (talk • contribs) 01:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

It appears to me that you separate the gift of "keys" from the gift of the Holy Spirit: as though the "keys" are not a distribution of the one gift, but a different gift. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 23:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The LDS view is that the Gift of the Holy Ghost is conferred upon a newly baptized member by laying on of hands during a priesthood ordinance. This ordinance is performed by one who holds the Melchizedek priesthood, the priesthood is the power to perform the ordinance. Before the ordinance is performed it must be authorized by one who holds the proper keys. If it isn't so authorized, the ordinance is of no effect. Based on what you have said here and elsewhere, it almost sounds like the MC view is that the Holy Spirit is more of a force or power than a being. 74s181 (talk) 02:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is quite a perversion of anything that you have ever heard me or any Trinitarian say, to twist what we mean into saying that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal "force or power". On the contrary, the "ordinances" that we perform are the visible aspect of the acts of the Lord, the Holy Spirit. You might as well have accused us of saying that we view the Lord as a force or power rather than as God. He is working; our part is only to show what he is doing. But since by "beings" you evidently mean "people", you are closer to what we mean if you say that we don't believe you, that the Father and the Holy Spirit are two people. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 19:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"...perversion...impersonal..." I did not mean to offend, I am trying to understand. Elsewhere, it seemed that you were equating the priesthood to the Holy Ghost. LDS view the priesthood as a power, literally the power of God, and the Holy Ghost as being thru whom this power is manifest, so it didn't sound quite right, that is why I asked. And, when I said "being", I meant more in the Trinitarian sense of the Father and the Son as one God but still individual (not separate) "beings" not in the LDS sense of physically separate beings. I should have been more clear. 74s181 (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

When LDS talk about authority they mean permission, 'keys' means, the authority to grant permission. Most male members of TCoJCoLdS have been ordained to the priesthood and can, for example, baptize and confer the gift of the Holy Ghost, but only when authorized to do so by the one who holds the keys of these ordinances. This is usually a Bishop or Branch President, I guess this would be similar to a head minister or pastor of a congregation. 74s181 (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

So now I'm curious, Mark. I've heard of Priesthood of all believers, what is the relationship between this and an ordained minister or pastor? 74s181 (talk) 05:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The most superficial notion possible, regarding the catholic priesthood, is that it is a mark of authorization, given to individuals like a token, which is constitutive of the power to perform rituals connected to the unearthly realm.

The catholic and orthodox idea of "apostolic succession" is not a superficial concept of historical continuity, from man to man; rather it is an historical signification of the continuous presence in the Church of the Holy Spirit, in whom Christ is really present. The priesthood of the church is a participation in the priesthood of Christ: it can't be understood separate and apart from that. It is this historically continuous communion of Man and God in Christ, that is the central issue: "Christian priesthood" concerns the historical communion of God and Man, continuous in the unending communion in one Spirit, in the Church. God and Man: the Church's continuous communion in one Spirit, by union with Christ.

Priesthood is a distribution of the same Spirit shared by all. It is emblematic of the unity of the church, not its division. The servant is ordained and called to a particular congregation, to be an according-to-the-whole man, a catholic man. This minister is a servant precisely because Christ is the servant of all, so that in the Holy Spirit all of the people are shown to be "servants" and "priests" in the priestly minister. This is what is meant by "the priesthood of all believers".

That this is the idea, is made most clear in the practice of Communion. Even among Protestants who object to the idea of a priesthood for other reasons, it is only very exceptionally denied that the whole people are constituted a community, integrated and fulfilled as "one people", through the ministry of communion. Otherwise they would only affirm that he died, once upon a time; and they would stop showing forth themselves as crucified with Christ, by baptizing and the Eucharist; they could as well dispose of a ministry ordained to this purpose; they could as well dispense with the empty ritual, since they would then only affirm by it their presumption of mental comraderie with God, quite apart from the presence of Christ in the whole church - and therefore the ritual may be discarded without any loss at all; and furthermore, they could as well abandon the pursuit of unity of the whole church, or their joining in any church, "as the habit of some is". — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've read thru your response to my question about the priesthood several times and I only understand bits and pieces of it. It reads like you are being very careful, I'm not sure why. I've numbered my comments so you can more easily respond, if you choose to do so. 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

1. "The most superficial notion possible..." I think I understand this, it is similar, but not identical to what LDS believe. 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
2. "The catholic and orthodox idea of "apostolic succession"..." I always thought that the Catholic church (capital C) claimed "man to man" apostolic succession. 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
3. "...the continuous presence in the Church of the Holy Spirit, in whom Christ is really present." I think this means that Christ is / has been continuously present in the Church by the Holy Spirit, at least, I think this is what you've said before. 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
4. "The priesthood of the church is a participation in the priesthood of Christ..." Maybe this means that MC believe the Priesthood is the power of the word, and can't be separated from Jesus Christ? I don't have a direct reference for this, but I would say that the LDS view is that the power of the priesthood comes from Christ, He is the source of all. 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
5. "Priesthood is a distribution of the same Spirit shared by all..." The only thing I understand in this paragraph is "This minister is a servant precisely because Christ is the servant of all...", but "...shown to be "servants" and "priests" in the priestly minister" derails me again. 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
6. "..."one people", through the ministry of communion..." Do you mean that the act of taking communion unites MC of various denominations? 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
7. "Otherwise...they could as well dispose of a ministry ordained to this purpose...empty ritual..." Maybe you're saying that if someone "exceptionally denied" the community of the communion then everything else would be empty ritual, and they might as well abandon it? 74s181 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The Catholic church does teach that it is an historical succession, but it is superficial to think of their idea as just an historical continuity of ordination from man to man. The idea is that there is no historical lapse in the promise of Christ to abide in the church.

I don't know what you mean by "MC believe the Priesthood is the power of the word". Do you mean, "the authority to preach"? How would that relate to what I said? I see no connection.

I don't see you addressing the idea of union with Christ at all. I don't see you speaking of the presence of Christ in the Holy Spirit at all, or anything about the Church's participation in Christ I don't understand how you can miss seeing that in what I said. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me throw this into the discussion as well here...In the LDS view, Amos 3:7 is still in force. That is that God will do nothing without revealing his secrets to his servants the Prophets. The way we interpret that is that there needs to be some authorized servant of God on the earth to receive revelation so that (and this answers your earlier question to me Mark) the divisions we see in the Christian world at large today would not occur. If there is a man who holds the priesthood (which we understand to be the power of God delegated to man), and this man has the keys in that priesthood of Prophet, Seer and Revelator (as we believe the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve now do in our modern day), then he is authorized to do two important things which serve to keep the doctrine pure: 1. Speak directly with God concerning his plan and the direction the Church should take 2. Receive revelation concerning matters of doctrinal or theological dispute to set contention to rest and insure the purity of the doctrine being taught. Now if one takes this view, then resolving matters like "What is the nature of God?" (which the credal councils sought to resolve, not by revelation but by study and consensus) becomes much simpler. If there is a man who is authorized to receive revelation and he comes forward and says, "I have spoken with God and this is who and how God is", and this statement is verifiable by the witness of the Holy Ghost to the individual hearing that testimony, then that calls into question (in the LDS view) earlier contrary conclusions drawn by well meaning, faithful, yet unauthorized believers of earlier times. The God of Mormonism is entirely plausible within the actual content of the Bible, though it is not consistent with the interpretation of the Bible of credal councils and their doctrinal heirs in later centuries. But since we don't believe these councils or the teachers that followed them had the Apostolic keys to receive such revelation, then we don't feel beholden to change our doctrine to suit those opinions. Mpschmitt1 (talk) 03:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Christ is our prophet. We believe him. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Mpschmitt1 is correct. A living prophet acts as representative for God on Earth. Without a living prophet, there is no representation. To say "Christ is our prophet" is inconsistant with this concept, because Christ isn't here to act as prophet. Bytebear (talk) 06:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Christ is alive, and Christ is with us. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"Christ is our prophet" The LDS perspective is that Christ is our King, and the prophet Gordon B. Hinckley is his spokesman, his visible representative. But we do not blindly accept the word of the prophet, we are encouraged, really, required, to seek personal confirmation of President Hinckley's prophetic calling and of the instructions he gives us. This is done thru personal revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost. 74s181 (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding my attempt to understand your response to my "Priesthood of all believers" question, I probably should have stopped at "...I only understand bits and pieces of it." Here are a few thoughts. 74s181 (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• "...no historical lapse in the promise of Christ to abide..." Yes, but which church? The LDS view is that 'the church' is a formal organization, there is a joining process (baptism), there is a list of people who are members kept on earth and in heaven. Mark, I think you are equating 'the church' with 'Christianity'. I think I understand what you mean from a theological perspective, but when we talk about ordinary people, let's say, a Baptist, does he really think he belongs to the same 'church' as a Roman Catholic? What I mean is, if you explained this concept to him he would agree, but is this really how he thinks about the 'church' that he belongs to? If I ask him what church he belongs to, does he say, "I'm a Christian"? Probably not. Maybe I'll ask a couple people today what they think about this idea. 74s181 (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
• "...power of the word..." You've used 'the word' to refer to Christ, that is what I meant, the power of Christ, not "the authority to preach", although that is part of it. If anyone does anything other than read scripture aloud in a monotone voice, he is interpreting, adding his own thoughts, and the LDS view is that he shouldn't do that without proper authority and inspiration. See D&C 42:11-14 "...if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach." 74s181 (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
• "I don't see you addressing the idea of union with Christ..." I did respond to this, see my #3. However, it is probably true that LDS have a different view of 'oneness with Christ' than Trinitarians, because we have a different view of the oneness of the members of the Godhead. See John 17:21, LDS believe that we are to become one with the Father and the Son in exactly the same way that the Father and the Son are one with each other. Mark, from what you've said I think MC believe that Christ acts as the bridge between God and Man, he is one with the Father, we become one with Christ. Is that right? 74s181 (talk) 14:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

1. A Baptist might substitute "Christianity" for the church; but as a Reformed Christian I do not. And certainly, a Catholic does not; and that's the view under discussion. There is an over-lap between the Catholic view of "apostolic succession" and all but the most anti-sacramental view of the "priesthood of all believers"; and that's what I'm trying to describe. If someone extremely denied the priestliness of the minister who gives communion to the congregation, then they might as well deny the necessity of gathering together at all - which indeed is how far some go. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
2. By "the Word of God", we don't mean "the power of Christ" - as though we think Christ is present only by remote influence. We mean, really and livingly present. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
3. As you said, Christ is the only mediator between God and Man. We are reconciled to God by union with his body, by the covenant in his blood, through the gift of the Holy Spirit whom the Son sends out from the Father to dwell within us. Priesthood is a distribution of that one gift. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 18:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

In your #1 you said that you do not substitute "Christianity" for "the church". I thought that the point was that "the church" is not any particular institution, rather it is all those individuals who accept the core traditions that have been handed down, uninterrupted and without change. Your other point, are you saying that some extremists say that since there is no need for a minister, there is also no need to gather for communion? But Christ commanded this, right? 74s181 (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

re: #2, we've had that argument before, but I don't remember your answer so I'll ask again. Christ was resurrected, He has a physical body, He ascended bodily into heaven, if He is "really and livingly present", where is He? That is, where is His body? 74s181 (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

re: #3, are you saying that priesthood is a distribution of the gift of the covenant in his blood? Sounds like this relates to communion, is that right? 74s181 (talk) 20:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge "Authority" and "Priesthood"

These two sections speak of essentially the same thing; so, they should be merged. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"Ceremonies" are also not distinguished sufficiently, from "Authority" and "Ordinances". The sections should be re-titled or merged. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 21:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there is more detail in the M&C article than is needed on these topics. 74s181 (talk) 04:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that for the purposes of this article, the concept of "authority" and "priesthood" are similar enough that they could be combined. 74s181 (talk) 04:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not as sure about "Ceremonies". Also, I've never liked this title. 74s181 (talk) 04:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The more I look at it, the more it seems to me that the problem that nags at me is a matter of the headings that are used. Better titles would suggest a clearer distinction of the content. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 20:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be "Ordinances and Sacraments" to give parallel to the the Mormon view and the Christian view. Bytebear (talk) 03:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)