Talk:War on terror

--Kumioko 21:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:FAOL

ENOUGH WITH THE CHANGING!

Now that a source is up that shows Russia are in the war against terrorism, it is no right to move it. See? There is a source! Now stop with the changing!

Name Change

The House Armed Services Committee is banishing the global war on terror from the 2008 defense budget. [1] Might be worth adding, let me know if you would like me to edit the article. --Carl Von Clausewitz 11:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

anyone knows why seperate funding? where the the funding go? to the military? defense contractors? recontructions? i don't get where is the money going based on the article, can someone stick some FAQ in the article... Akinkhoo 01:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Where are the Terrorist Casualties?

Usually in an article on a war you have casualites listed by side. I see the US and other allied side casualties and the (supposedly) innocent bystander casualties. Where is the Terrorist and sympathizer body count? How many of the innocent bystander casualties was caused by the Terrorists and how many by the US and allies? Seems a fair thing to ask. Otherwise its pretty meaningless to tally the losses, keeping score on one side and not the other. Asiaticus 03:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

But this isn't a traditional war - not in any sense. How do you tell who's a terrorist, who's a sympathizer, and who's innocent when no one's wearing any uniforms? It's not like Al Qaeda keeps tallies with the International Red Cross. --Brasswatchman 15:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you know them by their actions. Caught or killed in arms or in aid of doing terrorist acts that seems pretty clear. They must have some estimates at least. Asiaticus 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

There are no estimates for that, and if you want to, blame the US military because they "don't do body counts" of enemies killed (because in Vietnam they realized they couldn't easily distinguish the number of civilians killed from the number of enemy). That means the only body counts, besides those of US and coalition allies killed, are just counts of the number of other dead because outside sources that weren't involved in a battle have no way of knowing who exactly was a "terrorist". Presumably the counts include everyone from civilians- vast majority of dead- to insurgent fighters. 172.147.227.44 15:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably most of the casualties listed by the US as terrorists are actually civilians, not the other way round, the US military has always been notorious for its cover up of 'accidental' civilians deaths and 'collateral damage'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.201.30.74 (talk) 23:40, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Why are the Combatants listed as they are?

The US and Allied anti terrorist coallition is listed as ones conducting Operations while the Islamist Jihadi/Terrorist side are ones being operated on, as if they were just standing around idle, doing nothing, getting beat up on? Last I saw they were operating pretty well themselves. How about calling them by their names: Anti Terrorist Coallition and Islamist Jihadi (unless Osama & Co. has a prefered name)Asiaticus 04:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source on what Al Qaeda has been up to in the last few years, you should be talking to the FBI, not Wikipedia. --Brasswatchman 15:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats not an answer to my question.Asiaticus 01:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The answer to your question is that 1. They arent all Jihadist groups, 2. They arent all necessarilly working together, 3. They are being targetted in operations. This doesnt mean they are passively sitting by, the War on Terrorism is a campaign against these groups, and the groups being attacked will obviously fight back in the ways they do. Its the only label that can accurately represent whats going on. ~Rangeley (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That isn't necessarily true, I think a lot of people would argue that the Ba'athist insurgency and the Al-sadr's army in Iraq have almost nothing to do with the originally stated goals of the war on terrorism (and are thus not combatants in it but rather a separate conflict from the war on terror). It's only an opinion that Iraq is part of GWOT, an opinion that was recently removed from the Iraq War article itself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.58.28.162 (talk) 06:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

As stated on this article, the "War on Terror" is a specificly defined campaign being waged by the USA and allies. This has been discussed, and things stating the Iraq War to be a part of the campaign have not been removed via discussion. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The user that removed them claim he did so in accordance with a "poll", I have no idea where or what this poll was but it was your user name that added it back. 68.58.28.162

Yes, I saw his edit summary. For one thing, polls are non binding, for another, the last poll was held in June 2006 and 24-4 agreed with the thesis that the United States can define what is and is not a part of a campaign it wages. While this in itself was not binding, the discussion eventually yielded a consensus. The "WoT" is not a war, its not a conflict, its a military campaign - ie a super operation. Within this super operation are other smaller operations, such as Operation Enduring Freedom, Operation Iraqi Freedom. People do occasionally remove it from the infobox, and it is either reverted or they begin a discussion which goes on for a while before its finally decided to re-add it. Its probably the least interesting yet most common issue one has to deal with when working on these articles. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rangeley generally on this. Many of the same people who want to make it clear that the Bush Admin. declared and defined the WOT (true), perhaps too broadly and carelessly (POV) as Rumsfeld recently acknowledged, and then expanded it to include the war in Iraq (they did), are the same people who also want to say the Iraq war is not part of the WOT (POV and more important - logically inconsistent with the prior point as part of factual encyclopedia article). I think the most accurate and neutral thing to do in this article and similar ones is to make it clear that the terminology and the expansion to include Iraq were the choice of the Bush administation, for better or worse. See for example, the edit I made earlier today to the "Killed in..." section and heading.-JLSWiki 03:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know of anywhere that lists even estimates on terrorist casualties. While it's an interesting point, there is no way to correct it so I don't think it can be expected to be put in there. Al-qaeda rarely releases tapes concerning their own casualties (apparently they agree with retired General Tommy Franks about body counts?) I'd be interested to here more on this but I don't think the US military does terrorist body counts and Al-qaeda statements are rare. The best I was able to find was a Netscape article [2] claiming 4,000 al-qaeda dead from the Iraq campaign. Whoblitzell

Well he isnt a reliable source. 4,000 is ridiculously low. I recall seeing a figure stating it to have been 67,000 jailed/killed in mid 2006. Dont have the source on me though. Its always going to be estimates, and they are out there if you look hard enough. ~Rangeley (talk) 17:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree he isn't a reliable source but I have never seen an Al-qaeda membership estimate over 18,000. The figure of 67,000 probably including Al-qaeda as well as other factions. Whatever their casualty figure is, as far as I'm concerned, it isn't high enough. Whoblitzell 00:35, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the terrorist casualties article reference. It seems self defeating not to have an terrorist casualty count when one is being run on the friendly side that is being used against them. No doubt part of the reason this conflict is not doing well politically. Asiaticus 08:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is France and Germany not on this list? It is insulting that countries which have contributed alot of resources have not been included on this combatants list. This is about the war on terror.. its NOT just about iraq. This list should be deleted.. its clearly impossible to create a fair and acceptable list to all.

9/11 as cause needs POV check, citation

While this is taken for granted as a fact in America, a lot of the world doesn't feel that the 'war on terror' began with 9/11 but rather that it began with the US invasion of Afghanistan and/or prior covert activities in the region. This view has been notably expressed by Noam Chomsky in many of his writings. The view that 9/11 was caused by US foreign policy gone awry is also presented in Michael Moore's movie and numerous others. I think something a little more objective than the 9/11 attacks being listed alone without a citation can be forged out. I also believe OBL's issue of a declaration of jihad might also be considered the start of the war or perhaps the first WTC attacks. In short, to simply list 9/11 because it is the most common American POV, well thats not right.

"It all started on 9/11" is, more or less, an American perspective of GWOT, but not a global opinion. It seems sort of POVish to me and I think an alternate cause should be listed, however it seems to be routinely removed. I think we need a non-government citation for something like this.

Please note that this article does state that this campaign began on October 7th, 2001. Casus Belli is the justification put forward for a military campaign, or the stated cause. It was definately the stated cause for beginning this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I see, that was a vocabulary problem on my part -- disregard previous message. Thanks

I've been having a problem thinking about the infobox casus belli thing for a while. It seemed POV in some way because it was only providing the justification for one side in the conflict, right? That's unusual. We get America's reason but we don't get the three main reasons cited by UBL in his jihad message in the late 90s that we can assume inspired the 9/11 attacks, as well as much of the "terror" that followed (those being: US military presence in middle east; existence and policies of State of Israel and US-Israeli alliance; economic and cultural hegemony of the US and perceived influence over muslims worldwide). I added them in once and they were deleted. But then I realized what the oddity is. This article effectively presents one half of a war. As the intro states, the war on terror is defined to be whatever the US military says it is. This article is not POV (since late last year) because the intro says exactly what it's about. However it's still an oddity. I wonder what the fate of this infobox and this article (and this war, or at least its name) will be over the next five years. I can't imagine the war being defined in Wikipedia quite this way with a tiny more time passed.

In fact... umm, most Americans (echoing the Bush Administration and NATO) feel that Al Qaeda "declared war" on the US with the 9/11 attacks. So according to that view, the US should have JOINED an existent war, rather than launching it. But of course Bush wanted to pre-empt their war rather than joining it, so he declared his own, against them. Even though they had supposedly already started the war (arguably in the previous decade, in fact, and in continuation from previous decades before that). So in always going with Bush's own definition of his own war, and thus leaving out the causes that inspire the "other side" in it (both of these aspects could constitute pro-American government POV), in effect this article also presents the war as if the US concocted it. So it's not POV for either side. It's just weird. Illustrates how both sides need each other. If they were involved in the same war, they wouldn't, one would want to win, but neither of them actually wants to win their wars, because they are each THEIR wars/jihads, chosen and defined by their own side and even given separate wiki pages.

But I can't think of anything else that could be done with it really, short of renaming it global war on terrorism and restricting it very narrowly to the official US military campaign, and creating another article about the concept of war on terrorism. 172.147.227.44 15:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. It would certainly reduce a lot of the philosophical debates if the article was just about the "official US military campaign". --82.133.79.7 10:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Al-Qaeda flag

On the infobox, Iraqi insurgency is listed next to the Al-Qaeda flag. However, Al-Qaeda (and other foreign combatants) form only a small minority (~1200 men) among the Sunni insurgents. Furthermore, even among the Sunni population Al-Qaeda is disliked.[3] I will remove the flag as misleading since it does not represent the true Iraqi insurgency.--JyriL ^talk 20:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Al qaeda in Iraq is a notable contingent of belligerent opposing the U.S. The flag should remain. --Tbeatty 20:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It is only one of many factions. Even more important, many of Sunni insurgency does not support Al-Qaeda. If fact, there are reports that Iraqi Sunnis and foreign fighters are fighting each other![4] Why use only one flag to represent all? It is very misleading and POV.--JyriL ^talk 21:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Media influences

The "media influences" section, which was introduced in these edits, seems to assign a lot of significance to the views of one writer. Gazpacho 06:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Flags

Flags – as there is a link to ‘War on Terrorism: Allies’ the flags should be limited, in my opinion, to countries with armed forces involved combat operations against ‘terrorists’ (such as USA, UK, Canada, Netherlands) and or nations where terrorism is a significant part of their security situation (such as Pakistan, Afghanistan). If nations with just small contributions to operations like ISAF are included, the list would be too long and would negate the need for a ‘War on Terrorism: Allies’ link. Chwyatt 11:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Combatants

Hey, I really think that the combatants list in this page is biased and inconsistent. I think the list should be consistent with the combantants lists in the pages involving theatre of operation with nations organized by troop contribution and diplomatic support while the rest would be organized alphabetically, but Al Qaeda on top.23prootie 02:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree only those listed in the article should be included, but it should be in alphabetical order. --NuclearZer0 17:43, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just seen this page for the first time, and I also wondered about the order. Is it ordered by size of the respective countries' armed forces involved, or chronologically in the order in which they entered the "war", or some other order? It needs to have some rational basis, and for that basis to be stated at the head of the list. -- JackofOz 01:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The list is not complete, Where is France and Germany? and other European countries that are fighting in Afghanistan. The War on Terror is not just about Iraq... (This shows exactly the problem with the term "War on Terror"

Rename with "Global"

Te official name is "Global War on Terrorism." ~ UBeR 02:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Its not the most common name, however. ~Rangeley (talk) 02:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It is actually. Should we change the George W. Bush article name to Bush, because that's what most people use to refer to the current U.S. President? No. Lets please start thinking with rationality. ~ UBeR 19:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). It actually uses an example involving Bush, "George W. Bush (not George Walker Bush.)" And it states "Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." Thats why we dont go with "Bush," but dont go with "Walker Bush" either. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I know Wikipedia's policies. Global War on Terrorism is not only the official, proper, and more formal name, it also the more used. Again, rationality, please. ~ UBeR 21:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Rationality...

Google hits: War on terrorism: 1,320,000 Global war on terrorism: 1,040,000

War on terror: 16,500,000 Global war on terror: 1,050,000

Yahoo hits: War on terrorism:9,900,000 Global war on terrorism:876,000

War on terror:23,100,000 Global war on terror:1,360,000

I think that it largely apparent which is the more used term... Sfacets 05:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:GOOGLE. Funny, nonetheless. Whatever the case, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is no place to endorse ignorance. Now, of course, the term with the lesser amount of words will have more Web sites. Try it yourself. Look up "Bush", and then look up "George Bush". Quite simply, your point is moot. Mine is not. ~ UBeR 17:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course the search results are of indicative value only, but it is a step up on your attempt at justifying the name change. (also note the difference between searching for a single word (Bush) vs three words (war on terrorism).Sfacets 18:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it applies to nearly everything. To digress, try looking up "Operation Enduring Freedom" versus "Enduring Freedom." Case in point. ~ UBeR 19:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

"Global war on terror" is a specific phrase used specifically by the American administration. It's an American thing, not a worldwide thing. Compare the use of the phrases in the British government: [5] [6]
In addition, "terror" makes even less sense than "terrorism" as something to declare a war on. Using the word Terrorism clearly makes more sense and fits better with the title of the article. --Mr. Billion 18:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about "terror"? ~ UBeR 19:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what you changed the article to say. --Mr. Billion 05:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

And it's something I personally changed back. If you couldn't have noticed, it was the result of a revert of a previous, where it was changed. ~ UBeR 06:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

This conversation is quite ludicrious Glen 22:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

As is the proposition that started it. --Mr. Billion 05:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm so sorry for suggesting that the article be named after its proper name. ~ UBeR 06:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It's okay. Just don't do it again. --Mr. Billion 06:19, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Ummm, I fear starting this debate up again, but I was really surprised to find this article under "Global War on Terrorism". While I admit that that makes much more logical sense, my sense is that overwhelming usage--including by the administration--favors "Global War on Terror". Do you guys all really think that "Global War on Terrorism" is the better name for this article?? 57.66.52.44 08:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

India

Does anyone here realize how close India and Pakistan came to nuking each other in 2002? They called it the War on Terror (or at least India did), so I put in a section on the events in new Delhi, Kashmir and Gujarat. Ericl 03:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

This isnt an article for everything ever called a war on terror, its for the specific us led campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rangeley, the Gujarat Riots had nothing to do with the War on Terrorism, they were entirely linked to local tensions in India, therefore, it should not be included in the War on Terrorism article, it makes no real sense to do so ThaGrind 13:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Common Sense

The chapter titled Common Sense is an opinion. This should be deleted. Does anyone agree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.167.107.118 (talk) 13:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

Ba'athist Iraq as terrorist organisation

Why is Ba'athist Iraq included as "Enemy" in war on terror? I mean, by now it is quite clear that Saddam did not support Al-Qaeda, and that he didn't have no WMD, isn't it? --89.172.41.218 16:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well the Ba'ath loyalists are fighting america in the war on terror. So they are at that side. The Honorable Kermanshahi 11:35, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

"Enemies" - NPOV?

And, another one. Isn't the list in the infobox titled "Enemies" a bit POV? I mean, from Taliban fighter point of view, Taliban and not quite "enemies", are they? We all agree that Nazis were bad guys in WWII, but we still don't label them as "Enemies" in WWII infobox... --89.172.41.218 16:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

How about "bad guys"? --Bobak 00:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't the americans the bad guys, you know, with hundreds of thousands of civilians killed by them in the last few years? With respect, Ko Soi IX 06:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

To accuse Americans of being the 'bad guys' for taking the lives of some (read some as opposed to your inflated hundreds of thousands) in order to save the lives of millions who would be killed by terrorists in the long run is ludicrous. On another note, there is little need to play a semantics game to avoid hurting someone's feelings by calling them an enemy. To refer to the opposing force as the enemy is common military practice, like it or not.

"Somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636" - Article 24.205.34.217 03:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Osama Bin Laden is reading Wikipedia so we can call them enemies.Spartytime 13:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

That's like saying "Romans aren't reading wiki, so we can call them "Enemies" in the article about the Barbarian attack on Rome. 24.205.34.217 03:26, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop! this is not A FORUM!!! ÄND ENEMIES IS POV (POV OF THE COMBATANT OF THAT ¨enemies¨)

Template:War on Terrorism: include Iraq?

Reading over this page I see this issue has been discussed ad nauseum, but I'd like to get a conversation going over whether {{War on Terrorism}} needs to include events in Iraq. I feel that leaving our Iraq would leave an incomplete picture. However, unlike this article, which is quite nuanced about Iraq, the template needs to be a lot simpler, so I'm not sure if it would be excessively POV if it was just inserted in there.

For comparison, {{World War II}} includes such conflicts as the French-Thai War and the Ecuadorian-Peruvian War. The former is only slightly relevant to WWII at large (fall of France leading to weak position in Indochina), while the latter seems completely unrelated except for the date.

My personal opinion is that regardless of whether the 2003 invasion of Iraq can be reasonably included as a War on Terrorism campaign, the current situation in Iraq, as a training ground for jihadist groups, makes it the likely central focus of any present and future US counterterrorism anyways.

See Template talk:War on Terrorism#Inclusion criteria Kelvinc 03:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a part of the campaign, which this article is about. The campaign is a government program, basically, and we have already provided documentation showing that it is a designated part. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

That was a lie of the Bush administration at the beginning, but know that's a real fact ..... Thus it deserves to be in the template. Mrpouetpouet 19:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Map caption

User:Sfacets decided to remove the word 'Islamist' from the caption showing the countries of the world that had been hit by international terrorism. Without the word Islamist it becomes meaningless - why not then include non-Islamist terrorist incidents in Colombia or Sri Lanka for example. I believe the term 'Islamist' is widely understood and accepted here, so can I have a concensus here that the word stays? Thanks Kransky 10:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Besides the fact that the term is highly controversial (See Islamism, how can we ascertain that the countries shown were solely the targets of "Islamist" groups? Perhaps we could name here the countries affected by this category of terrorism here and compare them to the map? Sfacets 20:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ireland involved in this war?

Ok once again Ireland has been added into the list of Combatants. I attempted to remove this error, when, again it was put back with the justification being that "They participate in ISAF", well I don't think the contributor quite gets the significance of Ireland being labelled as a participant in a war. The Republic of Ireland is a Neutral country it has not been involved in any war since it's independence, it has been involved in many UN peacekeeping missions, but not in wars.

Now as to the claim that Ireland is participating in the International Security Assistance Force, well the only source given for this is a 2002 article which claims that 7(!?!) Irish Defence Forces members would be going to Afghanistan as staff in the "information operations section" of ISAF HQ, and as liaisons. In other words, they are not by any means involved in any combat (as a "list of Combatants" would imply), So since when did 7 desk jobs constitute fighting in a war? I will state my reason for removing Ireland from this list again, Ireland is (or was) involved with the ISAF in an extremely minor way, that Does Not equate to saying that Ireland is engaged in a war! (i.e. the War on Terrorism).

To give an example, Irish troops were in the United Nations Protection Force in the Balkans, but the Republic of Ireland was not involved in the Yugoslav wars. It's quite a big difference from going on a Peacekeeping mission (especially one where they're not even armed...) and actively engaging in fighting a war. Likewise Ireland was in UNIFIL, but that does not make Ireland a Belligerent Party in the Lebanese Civil War or the 1982 Lebanon War, etc. Ireland's involvement with the ISAF is already listed in the ISAF article, and that is where it should be left. For these reasons I’ll be removing them again unless somehow, someone comes up with some very convincing reason why they shouldn't be removed. --Hibernian 03:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well said Hibernian. Ireland is not a combatant (engaged in combat operations). Even if Ireland is contributing to ISAF, it is not involved in combat operations as part of ISAF 3 in southern and eastern Afghanistan like the Canadians, Brits, Dutch and Americans are (Coalition combat operations in Afghanistan in 2006). And this is no disrespect to the good men and women of the Irish Defence Forces in Afghanistan (or indeed personnel from Luxembourg or Iceland). But list of combatants needs to be kept under control or it becomes meaningless. Chwyatt 10:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Luxembourg? Iceland? The list of ‘combatants’ is just silly.

Luxembourg makes it on a list of ‘combatants’ (now removed) because it has 10 peacekeepers in a relatively safe part of Afghanistan? This is just silly.

I think the list of combatants should be limited to nations that are currently involved in significant numbers in active combat operations (like the US, Canadians, Brits, Dutch etc). Or nations with significant domestic terrorism problems involving major domestic military forces (like India or the Philippines). Or were involved in past operations in significant numbers (like Germany in 2002).

Maybe larger ISAF contributors, but for goodness sake, not a dozen men and a jeep!

Chwyatt 10:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, also remember this is a WAR and by putting someone on the "combatants" side you obviously say they are not neutral. The war on terror is not a peacekeeping operation. Peacekeepers are usually considered neutral, even though obviously Iceland or Luxembourg or wherever is not going to be an Al Qaeda sympathizer, there is no reason necessarily to consider them a US/UK sympathizer either. Just because many nations may be supporting the official government of Afghanistan with a bit of manpower, does not mean they are engaged in this international "war". In fact to list them like this promotes a misconception that all Westerners=Americans, and is exactly what gets peacekeeping/aid workers of these countries who are only trying to do humanitarian work, targeted by terrorists there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.163.181.65 (talk • contribs)

Well, there are two questions. One is, are they combattants? Obviously yes, they contributed forces, they are a combattant. The more important question is, do we have to put every combattant into the infobox? The answer to that is no. Having every combattant is a bit much, instead the larger contributors and main nations should be put in the infobox, while the rest are linked to as "others." ~Rangeley (talk) 00:21, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Forces = combatants? I don’t think that automatically applies, especially if some forces are sent to Afghanistan to undertake reconstruction work, and not to seek out and combat Taliban/al-Qaeda. Some forces have been sent to Afghanistan with a remit to avoid active combat operations, only to defend themselves. And if they are not in a ‘hot’ area, then they don’t engage in combat. Military forces can do peaceful tasks so are not combatants, even if they are capable of combat. I think the task the unit does defines if it is a combatant, not the unit itself. I suppose it is a matter of interpretation. Chwyatt 13:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Its one thing if the troops are seperate from ISAF, but in this case all nations listed are a part of ISAF. ~Rangeley (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Why was Russia removed from the list of Combatants?

Because some people hold grudges against Russia, and they are not fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, they are still a part of The Global War on Terror. I am so tired of people misunderstanding. People are removing Russia from there all the time, mostly because they think Putin is hiding Iraq's weapons. Wake up, people! Those are PRIVATE weapon dealers, and they exist everywhere. in the US too. Russia are fighting actively against terrorists in Chechnya, now you might disagree, but they are concidered terrorist due to their bombings and taking hostages(in schools and theaters and hospitals), and what Russia is doing in there is allowed, no matter how bad it is. The law says that Russia can do extreme measures, and anything she chooses to do to protect her borders and sovereignity. Therefore, Russia are active in fighting terrorists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.88.52.125 (talk) 13:50, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

No, Russia is not listed because they are not part of the specific campaign which this article is about. Every country that fights terrorists is not part of the United States' "War on Terror". Quadpus 12:24, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, explain then, what France do there? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.245.171.138 (talk) 09:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Read the article. France is mentioned several times as participating in operations which are known to be part of the USA "War on Terrorism". Quadpus 20:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• If Russia would be on the list of countries participating in the Global War On Terror, then every country not having fully legalised narcotics should be on the list of countries participating in the War on Drugs. This is every single country in the world.--Victor falk 18:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

israel is the cause of terror

i seached for any accusations that us foreign policy that favors israel over the palestinians as the cause of terror against the US and i didnt find any. this article needs to include the fact that it is Israel and its control of US Foreign Policy in the Middle East and the mistreatment of the Palestinians as the true reason we are attacked by Islamic radicals and not because we are a free country. 208.39.128.10 18:36, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input - would you happen to have a citation supporting this view? Addhoc 19:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

yes, just ask the terrorists. nowhere in any of bin ladens speeches does he say he hates freedom or america because it is a free country. bush says it because heaven forbid you blame israel for the things they do to innocent people with america's military and financial support. we always just express regret if we say anything at all. oh, and you're welcome for my input. Keltik31 21:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

You could add a quote of bin Laden. But it should be offered as his opinion or rhetoric. By your reasoning americans can reasonably expect to get blown up in a restaurant by a hassidic Jew if Hezbollah doesn't disarm. I personally don't think mass murdering clerical fascist are credible.

It's always nice to see the pro-terrorist anti semite view point well represented on wikipedia. Judgesurreal777 04:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I was asked for clarification one what I meant by this, so I will explain; I was disputing the posters claim that America and Israel are to blame for why they were attacked on 9/11, which is indeed because of the extreme views of the terrorists and their desire to subjugate the world to a kind of totalitarian Islam, and not the terrorists self proclaimed "grievances" which they change every year to justify their atrocities. To argue that the fault for the instigation of the War on Terrorism lies with the West, and not with the terrorist themselves, is false, and to argue so is playing into the hands of terrorists who wish us to castigate ourselves for our minor faults rather than defeat them for their atrocities. No one should support the terrorist view point of "Blame America First", or Israel for that matter. Hope that is a bit clearer. Judgesurreal777 11:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

i see. so you are antisemetic if you disagree with anything that israel does? that would make a lot of jews antisemetic. the irish republican army resists british rule in the north or ireland. it is the treatment of catholics at the hands of the protestant government which drives the things that the IRA does. just as the things that israel does in the occupied territories drives the things that the likes of bin laden do. islam does not cause terrorism. injustice causes acts of violence. if we have terror because of islam, then what do we have because of judaism? greed? tell me. israels treatment of the palestinians is the cause of terror in the middle east. lets not forget that the zionists used terrorism to get their state as well. i dont believe in killing innocent people. but i also do not agree with expecting people to sit on thier hands when their homes are destroyed and their children are shot like israel does on a regular basis as we in america say nohing. Keltik31 18:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

While it is true that Isael's actions have caused a blowback effect in the form of terrorism, you really can't say they are the SOLE cause for terrorism in the Middle East. Yes, Bin Laden and other anti-American terrorists complain of the U.S.'s support of Israel, they also complain of westen military imperialism and immoral behavior (like allowing women to dress in anything but a burka). The causes of terrorism in the name of fundamentalist Islam throughout the Middle East are much more complicated than simply the actions of the Isaeli government.

Totally agree. Terrorism is rarely motivated by one simple grievance. Even the Northern Ireland situation is much more complicated than that and that is comparatively simple. I agree though that support for Israel by the West and in particular the US could be cited as one of many grievances of the terrorists. In fact a section on this would probably add to the article. As long as it doesn't become a soap box for terrorist sympathisers. (Ajkgordon 07:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC))

Despite argument about the short term reasoning used by UBL and the like, the long term goal of Al Qaeda and similar (Salafist/Wahaabi) organizations is the restoration of the Caliphate and the spread of a worldwide facist Islamic empire akin to the government of Saudi Arabia. These are UBL's own words, as well as his blame for Israel. In a certain way, Islamic Extremists' opposition to religious freedom and paramount misogyny are a hatred of us "because we are free" as the US allows women dress themselves and worship how they please. 75.41.58.207 09:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Jees you guys really misunderstand islam, how come everyone is accused of trying to restore the caliphate when I think it is only a tiny minority of the Sunni Or Shi'a that wish to restore some kind of caliphate and neither of them agree who the caliph should be (should he be politically elected? Should he be descended from Muhamamed) sorry for getting my sides mixed up if I have but Im tired and only have a slightly less ignorant view of islam than the above user. I think one side is waiting for the madi to return to be their caliph at judgement day. Anyway the point is both Sunni and Shi'a are accused of wanting sharia law and restoring the caliphate but since either one or the other dosent want the caliphate unless its the madi, or does not support sharia law this makes no sense. I dont know if anyone else can see this and I pity those writing posts (like the one above) that obviously have no idea how stupidly unquestionig they sound, but this talk page is full of jingoism. No one knows the long term goals of Al'Queda for real so please everyone stop specculating they want world domination along with your average joe Iraqi man who is obviously wanting to destroy freedom by protecting himself from a percieved threat of invasion (just like America justifies its actions by protecting itself froma percieved threat of attack). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.201.30.74 (talk)

Oh and back to this 'world domination' idea and 'attacking freedom' The most I think it would be fair to claim is that Al'Queda wish for dominanace over islam in a shiite respect, possibly even the middle east, but there isnt anythign in islam (and it actually is scorned) about a islamic dictatorship or forced islamic submission of others in some kid of world caliphate. The most important thing for Al'Queda, and arguably the whole reason it was created was to regain the 'holy land' or Saudi Arabia financed by the Americans who were allowed to build bases and disregard cultural laws (which are very strict in Saudi, as you probably know) but then again it is the Muslim Holy land and in their eyes there isnt any reason for a on-practicing muslim or someone who disregards the culture should be allowed in the country. In reality it might e fairer to say Al'Queda wishes for dominance over Saudi Arabia. About the freedom aspect, even in this radicalist islam the genral idea is meant to be they dot give what other people in other countries get up to (free or not) as long as it dosent interfere with islam in predominantly islamic countries. Im in fact a practising Christian so dont accuse me of 'terrorist-islamofacismbutnotfacismreallybecauseidontknowthemenaningofthewordism' I simply like to tell the facts as they are, if that makes me a terrorist sympathiser then American politics must be pretty warped.172.201.30.74 00:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a political discussion site. Please take this somewhere else. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Why was my game link removed?

Heya. I placed a disambig link at the top of the page for the game War on Terror, since War On Terror redirects straight to this page. The game, which is a satire on the concept of the war on terror, has received a great deal of international press, as well as some infamy for being banned from many major toy and game fairs etc.. D.valued 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Because noone except you sees the game as notable enough for a disambiguation link. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Now, I may not be agreed with here, but personally, anything worthy of a wiki article, that shares it's name with something more noteworthy, deserves, at least a "did you mean?" link somewhere, or alternatively, a link to a disambig page if there is more than 1 article. Now, that's not to say tail should have a link to the character from the sonic the hedgehog games, but anything with an identical name should have the disambig. 24.205.34.217 03:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with 24.205...., WP:D says "When there is risk of confusion, the page for an ambiguous term should have a way to take the reader to any of the reasonable possibilities for that term". Of course, you could argue that the game isn't notable enough to have an article (in which case the article should be deleted), but if it is going to have an article, there must be a way for visitors to the site to find it. D.Valued, I was going to put the link back, but I can't find the revision, did you edit the article using a different account or was it just a long time ago? Bistromathic 20:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

ISAF part of "War on terrorism"?

I'd say they are not. Can someone give me a source or something to support that ISAF actually is part of it? Otherwise I think they should be removed from this article. --Merat 22:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked with the ISAF homepage, the word "terrorism" isn't mentioned in the mission page. --Merat 11:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• Perhaps if you look at the UN resolution that authorized the ISAF, you will see the following: "Supporting international efforts to root out terrorism, in keeping with the Charter of the United Nations, and reaffirming also its resolutions 1368 (2001) of 12 September 2001 and 1373 (2001) of 28 September 2001,", see here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1386 Fanra 07:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, but that still doesn't mean that ISAF is part of the American led campaign "War on terrorism". --Merat 00:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I would say it does. That UN mandate’s context is a consequence and in many ways a continuation of the initial US led invasion of Afghanistan, especially considering the active combat operations ISAF forces (such as the Brits, Canadians, Dutch and others) are engaged in in the south. Chwyatt 08:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's very important to separate the US campaign the "War on Terrorism" (a campaign started by the current US president) from the more general struggle of Muslim Islamists/Fundamentalist against their enemies (a struggle/war that has been going on for a while).

My gut feeling is that the inclusion of the ISAF (and the countries participating in ISAF) is based in that they are also fighting Islamists in Afghanistan. However, the enemy of ones enemy is (encyclopaedically speaking) not ones friend; just because the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany fought against Poland together didn't mean that they were allied, and did absolutely not mean that they shared the same goals. Same with this one. I would agree with putting US forces and ISAF on the same side on the Afghanistan war article, but not in this one. Merat 23:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

What about Colombia?

Is Colombia part of this war? I think so... [7] --((F3rn4nd0 ))^{(BLA BLA BLA)} 23:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What has Columbia to do with this? We might as well add the PRC on the "anti-terrorist" side and the Chinese democracy movement and Tibetian separatists as terrorists. Everyone will claim they are fighting a "War on terrorism" if they get a chance, even though most likely they are only fighting political opposition. Should Wikipedia support this crackdown on dissidents all over the world? --Merat 11:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the whole notion of War on terrorism is controversial. Wikipedia should keep a NPOV on these cases and what I am looking at here is that "the other fronts" should be included, the US military clearly states this.. [8]--((F3rn4nd0 ))^{(BLA BLA BLA)} 19:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

GWOT vs. GSAVE

At some point in 2005, I believe the administration officially changed the name from "Global War on Terror" to "Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism." Obviously, the name change didn't stick, but it's worth mention. Indeed, this article redirects from "GSAVE", yet GSAVE isn't mentioned in the article. Therefore I suggest someone add a piece to this article documenting this attempted name change. Here's a couple of links to get started: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4772826 208.64.241.229 17:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Blackwater USA

The article should include Blackwater USA--F3rn4nd0 ^{(BLA BLA BLA)} 17:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Too superficial?

No doubt this article is a NPOV minefield, but it doesn't even mention oil. There needs to be some acknowledgement of the disconnect between the rhetoric and reality. Peter Grey 15:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Commentary by crivers01

the war in iraq has completely dis-unified our country. people oppose this war because their loved one's and friends are being sent over their to create peace. their not creating peace their causeing more war. people blame the president for all of this. 9-11 was the only reason we should have gone over there, and we did we had to find the person behind it all. so ok we did that, then we wanted to start up a democracy over their. thats their own problem if they cannot get along with each other when it comes to politics. our first president george washington stated as a precendent " we as a country will not interfere with forgin affairs". we can argue about this war forever but it was a dumb move on the presidents part. we should get all troops out of iraq for good!!!! we are fighting for a bad reason. we should completely stay out of forign affairs and keep out of things.

why?!

why do we interfere with forign affairs. thats not what we are supposed to do. we do not need any more soilders dying over in iraq. we need to pull out all troops. our first president george washington stated as a presedent " we do not need to interfere with forign affairs". what makes this any different. our president is the one to blame. the only reason we needed to go over their was to find out who was behind the 9-11 atacks and we did. now we do not need to be helping to rebuild and create a goverment. thats their job not ours. if they can't get along when it comes to politics then thats too bad on their part. we need to pull troops out of iraq for good!!!! i would like to hear your opinions about this 'war on terror' User:crivers01

responses

Excellent points, but an encyclopedia reports opinions of notable parties, not just anyone. The War on Terrorism slogan is, at best, weakly related to actual terrorism, and the article should not leave criticisms as an afterthought. I'm sure some prominent politicians or analysts have made similar points and can be corroborated with reliable sources. Peter Grey 03:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to sit at home on your computer and say we should pull all troops out of Iraq for good. but there are innocent Iraqi civilians just like you or me in that country who will be murdered by the republican army when the troops leave. The war on terror is a problem that exists over seas, but the inncoent people in that country are just like you or me, but they arn't protected like us. I think every innocent person in the world is intitled to some safety. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fleming 663 (talk • contribs)

But you think we should kill them for there own security? He was merely stating his opinion in what he believes in-as did you. I personally think your statement was incorrect, because when we leave (if we leave) they will retaliate. Its human nature to take that course of action. There affairs are there affairs, and the United States should not act as the world police. But thats just my 2 cents. ~Sage1989

i agree we should not be the world police. i think we are playing a game of chance. what extra security are we getting y not tell iraq that nobody should come over into america or we will have to dod something about it. crivers01

continued

ok but what are politicans doing absoutly nothing about it. people are dying every day over their and we are letting them. somebody should do something or let time go by with the troops in iraq until bush is out of office for good! — Preceding unsigned comment added by crivers01 (talk • contribs)

This is an encyclopedia, not a political action blog. This article can provide information about the rhetoric, the reality and the results of the compaign (quite different from each other in this case), but humans are the ones who will have to take action. Peter Grey 03:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

He is simply stating an opinion to which he has a right to. At least he didnt edit the main page with his comments. ~Sage1989

thank you someone will hear me out about this ===crivers01===

Not to pry, but werent you banned from wikipedia? ~Sage1989

i created another account with the same name again but different e-mail===crivers01===

Don't complain about a war if you can't even spell "Foreign". Also, Washington was EXTREMELY isolationist, and we have since established a much more involved foreign policy. Also...why are we there? Because if we don't try to battle terrorists on this scale, NOBODY ELSE WILL. Kang227 15:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, he is stating an opinion to which he has a right to. America has the right to free speech, right? It apparently also has the "right to be a nonentalite", as showing through you. Leave the kid alone-its not like he's damaging the site at all.

Global perspectives

Currently the "international" sections of this article detail only foreign (with respect to the U.S.) military involvement; there is little or no attention paid to International opinion/reactions to the War on Terror/Terrorism. This is inconsistent with the encyclopedia-wide effort to CSB. I will attempt to add relevant global perspectives to this article shortly, as well as do my part to clean up the entry in general, but I'm also interested in hearing others' thoughts about these issues. This is, of course, not a question of personal politics, but of making sure global vantages are successfully incorporated into major entries.Benzocane 21:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Length of intro and general organization

Does anybody else feel the like the intro is too long? Compared to other similar entries, it's lengthy indeed. I'm considering attempting a major restructuring--to make the intro efficient and to redistribute its more in depth comments to relevant sections and subsections. Most of the discussion on talk has consisted of political debates, but I'm concerned with the readability and encyclopedic nature of the entry. Benzocane 23:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I've made a first pass--I've removed some redundant information, but basically I've tried to redistribute the lengthy introduction into more coherent sections. This article, to put it mildly, needs a ton of work, and what I've done constitutes no more than a very limited start. I welcome thoughts and help, of course! I will try to keep improving organization. Right now I'm focused almost exclusively on form, not content.

Removed unsourced paragraph

This paragraph seems like the opinion of one editor, not encyclopedic, source-based text. Also, because it comes so early in the entry, I feel like it's contributed to the general unencyclopedic tone of the entry, which I, along with others, have been trying to correct. Finally, a more authoritative version of this argument is already noted in other sections of the article:

"In a hard-headed Clausewitzian analysis, the phrase "war on terror" has no meaning; one makes war on an enemy, not on a method, although it logically could be used to indicate a war on the people who use such a method. The enemy may be an entity such as al-Qaeda. And the use of the term "jihadist" is also misleading, as there are a number of groups involved in asymmetric warmaking with secular or religious backgrounds and levels of willingness to engage in direct action."

Benzocane 01:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The section headed as 'Stated US objectives and strategies' is currently comprised of a series of bullet points regarding the US strategy in the war on terror, followed by two paragraphs that highlight the role of democracy in countering terrorism. Although these two paragraphs mention two strategy papers, they are unsourced and redundantly composed. The US strategy on countering terrorism seems adequately outlined in the series of bullet point, and, hence, I have removed the two unsourced paragraphs.

--Jimmyhogg 12:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help, Jimmyhogg--good to see your editing again. This article is coming along, but still needs work, and I'm glad to have another editor on the job. I agree with your edit above.Benzocane 16:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Heres a question for all you fools who support the war. How do we when this war? How long do we have to stay? Who do we have to kill? How many do we have to kill? What are our goals? What the fuck are we doing there? No one is stating goes and the president says "If we have a stated time line the terrorist win". Are you fools that dense. What the hell are we doing there?

New Title

The title of this article is a misnomer, a better term would be "War of Terror" The truth hurts only those who lie.

Cute, but not encyclopedic. See WP:NOT#OTHOUGHT and WP:SOAP. As of this comment, User:El C has vandalized this article in this way.

"The War of Terror ... is an umbrella term coined by the Bush administration..." El C must know that his term was not coined by the Bush administration.

"Both the phrase 'War of Terror' and the policies it denotes have been a source of ongoing controversy, as critics argue it has been used to justify unilateral preemptive war, human rights abuses, and other violations of international law." Critics of his term have said no such thing, at least according to the citations.

Don't vandalize Wikipedia. Not cool. IEdML 21:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

If I could change the Main Title I would since there really lies the issue.

"War on Terror" is the name it's known by. Still, the ironic and/or Orwellian character could be expounded a little better. Peter Grey 22:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This page is pretty biased and obviously based off of opionion.

Who ever wrote this isn't writing about fact, they are finding information that contriibutes to their own outlook of the war.

I agre with you aNNoN. Best bishes, Miguel

The Global War on Terror

Global War on Terror, used repeatedly in the internal text of the October 16, 2003, memo written by Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, entitled Global War on Terrorism, seems to be a new rhetorical device justifying expansion of the "war" and perhaps new agencies. Citing the memo:

"Today, we lack metrics to know if we are winning or losing the global war on terror. Are we
capturing, killing or deterring and dissuading more terrorists every day than the madrassas and the
radical clerics are recruiting, training and deploying against us?" 

In this view, which is relatively new even for the Bush administration, the goal is not to end the threat posed by terrorist groups of global reach, the previously stated objective, but the eradication of all militant Islamic groups that cross the line from militancy into attacks on the USA and its allies, wherever they are, whether they have a right to be there or not. It is the eradication of a mind-set that is the objective, not specific groups.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Global_War_on_Terror

Chechen rebels ARE terrorists

To the moron who said: "not every rebellion is a part of War on Terror", you are really stupid. Tell to the parents of Beslan that Chechens are not terrorists! Sergei

This is article is very specifically about the US-led "War on Terrorism" campaign. The war in Chechnya is not a part of this specific campaign, it actually began years earlier and predates the campaign. Thats why its not a part of this specific one - it has nothing to do with the status of the rebels in Chechnya. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a source next to Russias flag that shows they are part of the war, so people stop removing them! Also, Russia is in Afghanistan.

Look, if this page has Estonia listed, who isn't doing a damn thing against the terrorists, Russia, who has 90, 000, 000 troops fighting in Chechnya DEFINATELY deserves at least some mention! Also, the government of USA has called Russia one of it's key partners in the war on Terror, and also expressed condolences for all the people that died as a result of Chechen extremism/terrorism. --24.87.7.43 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Sergei

... As I said, this is about the specific campaign begun October 7th 2001. The Chechen war, while arguably against terrorists, began before this and therefore was not begun under the campaign. Russia is definitately involved in other aspects of the US-led campaign, but the chechen war is not a component. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't see how this thread qualifies as explanation for Mr 24.87.7.43 to re-insert this content. Rangeley has already explained to you why the Chechen war is not part of this campaign. Apart from Rangeley, three other users (me, User:Willy turner and User:Discospinster) have removed your content and you have not as much as followed up on this discussion nor had anyone else support your view - obviously there is no consensus to have this content it here. Whatever your view on Chechnya is, this is not the page for it, please see other articles, such as: Terrorism.--Konstable 07:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

To 24.87.7.43 aka Sergei, I will not leave this on your talk page as you have a shared IP, so I will put it here. An important reminder for you: you have made 3 reverts on this page, one more and you will be violating the three revert rule, which may lead to you being blocked. Please discuss first, even if you think we're all wrong - tell us why.--Konstable 07:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Whatever!! I don't argue with hyppocrites! You people are so biased anti-Russia, it makes me sick! In your mind, only your precious US of A is fighting TERRORISTS, ands Russia, who as I said fought a bloody war in Chechnya, against extremists, who blow up schools, with children in them, murderers, who takle hostages, and slash their throats and videos of it, fucking barbaric sub-humans, who raped all women, and killed every single man in all Russian communities in Chechnya that they ever came in! But these are not TERRORISTS, these are "innocent Chechen civillians"! Boo hoo! Like I said, you are all hyppocrites and Russophobes, and this site is CRAP!!! --199.60.112.15 17:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Sergei

Inclusion of France

Sorry if I've missed it but why is France not listed in the list of combatants? She's listed in the Operation Enduring Freedom article and I thought that the US government considered that as part of its WOT. (Ajkgordon 08:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Probably because not every single nation can be listed, or should be listed in the infobox on this page. Thats what the other page is for. France's contribution has not been one of the largest, therefore it is probably misplaced in the infobox. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, France was a fairly large contributor to Operation Enduring Freedom if I recall correctly. Trouble is France isn't even listed under "and others" from the infobox. Is it possibly simple anti-French sentiment? There's a lot of it about :) (Ajkgordon 09:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC))

You can never know for sure why it was removed from there, but either way, it should definitely be listed on the "others" page. ~Rangeley (talk) 14:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Palestine

I love how Palestine, whose oppressed people are lucky if they can go a night without some US supplied F16 flying overhead and blowing up their homes, are listed as "terrorists" and the innocent, peaceful Israelis listed as the good guys.

The standard definition of "terrorist" seems to be as follows:

Terrorist (n) - Any man, woman or child blown up or otherwise killed by US or Israeli aggression. 203.49.216.12 00:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Palestine was removed, along with various others like Azerbaijan which certainly have not been targets of this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You guys are disgusting. If you would understand your history, you would learn that these poor Palestinians invited Hitler to complete his final solution of the Jews in Palestine. Jews who had been living in the region for millenia. The only homes that are getting blow up are those of dead combatants, family members of the combatants, and government officials who are combatants. There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in peace in Israel, Judea & Samaria, Jordan, Syria, etc... The actual definition of a terrorist is a person who attacks non-military targets, ie. busses, schools, shopping malls, cafes. I'm sorry that in your little shell you can't realize that there are terrorists being bred in backwards-ville West Bank and Gaza. "Oppressed?" These typical Palestinians standard of living is better than it was 100 years ago, ironically, thanks to the creation of the state of Israel the so-called Palestinians live with much less disease, more running water, more energy, and more jobs. Unfortunately for them in particular, they are literally used as pawns in the larger Arab-Israeli conflict. Only to the benefit of larger Muslim countries like Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, etc. who all want to see Israel's destruction. -BB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.6.19.162 (talk) 17:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible Abbrieviation for the War Against Terror

TWAT, anyone? Henners91 08:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Other" casualty numbers

Can't speak for the other countries mentioned, but Canada has lost 167 in Afghanistan, according to http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/casualties/total.html, and 24 on 9/11, according to http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/09/11/newyork-sept11.html. Unless I'm forgetting something (I imagine there were a few Canadians dead in Bali, for instance), that 1,222 number is a fantasy. These figures need to be checked!Martin McCarvill 21:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

War On Terror - Timeline

Since this article is disputed over its neutrality, and due to the fact that it's based off an ongoing event, then should this article be temporarily disabled, and/or deleted, until the information is accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhansond2007 (talk • contribs)

I'm not going to comment on the accuracy of the information in the article, but this variety of title change should really be discussed before being moved. I've gone ahead and reverted your change. If you wish to move this article from it's current name, please go to WP:RM and follow the process defined there. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Israel wrongly placed

Israel is fighting a separate war on terrorism, unrelated to 11 September. They are not fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan. JonnyLate 22:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Israel is also not part of the Coalition of the Willing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2862343.stm JonnyLate 22:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

several articles in one

Reading the article, the Israeli and Hezbollah conflict is here but shouldn't be. Even if US President Bush says its a front of the war, such declaration has nothing to do with 9 11. Hezbollah is just a terrorist group who is bad but separate from bin Laden. JonnyLate 23:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not about a war, its about a US-led campaign. Things designated by the US government as a part of the campaign are parts of the campaign, just like subops are part of operations as designated by the respective government which began them. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

List of Combatants - OR/POV?

Is there a source for this list or a criteria for inclusion? As far as I know this "War on Terrorism" is a phrase, or policy, of the American government rather than an actual specific war, so I don't quite understand this "list of combatants" or where it came from.--Konstable 00:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The "War on Terrorism" being referred to here is a US-led campaign, as stated in the intro. Just like suboperations are a part of a larger operation, operations can sometimes be a part of something larger, ie a campaign. The combatants that should be listed here are the major ones from the various smaller operations which have been designated, by the US government, as a part of this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

But how do you define "major"? --AJKGordon 09:23, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I dont know that there is a Wikipedia-wide consensus on that. It really depends on the operation. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but "War on Terror" is not a specific operation, nor a specific war - it is just a political term. Yet you have a conflict infobox here with a list of combatants. I doubt that half of the combatants even on the "American side" accept that they are fighting a "War on Terror". Iraq is meant to be part of this war on terror yet Russia there was planning to veto the UN resolution for this war - how does this place them on the same "side"? What about the groups on the right hand "side"? Do they accept that they are fighting everyone on the left? Do they agree that all this is one conflict? This very article cites that even UK, America's best friend, does not accept that this is a "war on terror" nor that terrorism is a military conflict. So what you have here is a POV. I think the conflict infobox should go altogether, I don't see how it is appropriate to label one country's political rhetoric as a world-wide "conflict" with well defined sides.--Konstable 23:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You are quite wrong in regards to it being merely a political term. While it is used as one often, this article is about the actual military designation under which many operations have been begun, ie a military campaign. In this sense, the article has a very specific focus, which has sadly been lost over the many months of editing. The infobox, originally, had qualifiers on each side. On one side, it was labeled "Participants in Operations," and the other, "Targets of Operations." Not every participant was in every operation, nor did they necessarilly agree with every operation, but they nonetheless participated in an operation and would be marked thus. Not every target of an operation was in every operation - in fact none of them were in every operation. Yet they were targets in an operation and were marked thus.

What has unfortunately happened is this article has become a mesh of several different concepts, some people try and focus on the term itself, others think its a war against terrorists and any battle against terrorists would automatically be a part of it. Neither of these ideas are quite on the money. As I said above, its an actual governmental campaign under which policies and operations have occured. I have often suggested a new article be made dealing specifically with the term, War on Terror, and its numerous applications throughout history. I have also suggested that an article be made about a supposed wider war/ideological struggle. But it doesnt seem like anyone makes these, instead this one gets cluttered and pretty darn confusing if you try to read it.

But maybe now would be a good time to do it, since there seems to be more interest in it. With an article on the governmental campaign named the War on Terror, an article on the term itself, and an article on a theoretical ideological struggle/conflict/war, things would be much cleaner and maybe the same problems would stop arising. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:58, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Instead of arguing about the participants in the "War on Terror" campaign we should list each operation that the campaign involves. That way in each operation's article we can list the specific participants instead of clouting them all under one banner when in fact they aren't all fighting the same enemies. ~Alex40045

We could use an idea similar to the one implemented on the War in Somalia (2006–present) article. They seperate their combattants by region, and this could easilly be implemented here. We would take the major combattants in the major operations, and identify them in that matter. ~Rangeley (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think this is sensible. Because the War On Terror is primarily an American political and ideological term rather than a specific military campaign with a varying amount of controversy among even some of her closest allies, combatants should only be listed in defined military campaigns associated with it. The article itself can easily describe the relationships between the US and generally aligned supportive countries without having to resort to a definitive list which, by its nature, can't differentiate the nuances and complex diplomatic relationships.

A case in point is the inclusion of France in the list of combatants. It appears to be a controversial inclusion and is constantly removed, probably because of anti-French sentiment fermented by France's refusal to accept American policy in Iraq (although Germany never seem to be singled out!), and yet they are major contributors to operations in Afghanistan, have a large military contingent in Lebanon, and have a sophisticated internal security policy to defend against terrorism.

Thus I move that the list of combatants is removed and replaced by a list of campaigns, which, in turn, can have their definitive lists. --AJKGordon 09:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't Iran in the combatants list on the terrorist side?

They have long been helping all kinds of terrorists. They should at least be listed on the terrorists side? Why not? --24.87.7.43 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Sergei

Iran may only be considered a partial terrorist, but only with/within Bush administration.

If somebody is interested in this link http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070720/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_terrorism its interesting he signed it,(to avoid criticism) somebody can put it under links. Iran may be connected to some form of insurgent support but only in iraq as they have majority shiite ties for centuries and saddam was that block until he was removed. And now Iraq can not do much on iran, since they have the upper hand. And do pretty much what they want in politics of the middle east.

So now that the Iranian Military is declared a terrorist organization by the US Senate, and the US Army and CIA declared terrorist organizations by the Iran can we now put both of them in the "Terrorist" side of the equation? For that matter anyone who uses violence to get their way should be put on the "Terrorist" side (i.e. Police, your boss, "anyone who gets in the way of freedom"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.59.159.226 (talk) 13:02, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please can someone delete the table of "combatants"!

There is huge debate about who should be included on this list and who shouldnt. The war on terror like stated in the article is too general and relates to too many things, Such as the conflict in Iraq and in Afghanistan. The ISAF are fighting in Afghanistan, As are the French and Germans yet they are not included in the list, This is a serious factual error. As it is so hard to define, it should just be deleted to prevent people being mis informed. If i was French or German i would be insulted that after my country sends troops into a combat zone, its not included on the list.

I would delete the table myself if i didnt worry that id mess up the whole article. I will check back here in a few days time, if no one has replied or removed it i will attempt to myself. I hope by that time someone will of removed the table already, because it is useless and misleading information.

6:35 Sunday 22nd of July - British Summer Time

I agree. I'm afraid, although I'd love to assume good faith, that there is either anti-"Old Europe" bias or that some "Old Europeans" don't want to be associated with the WoT. Similar edits are made on the International_contributions_to_the_War_Against_Terrorism article that has multiple campaigns - NATO members are being systematically removed from NATO lists. --AJKGordon 11:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Why is the image of the Kosovo Liberation army's flag in the Combatants table so big? Hera52 13:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Shorten the list of combatants

I think the list of combatants should be shortened. The [[World War II] list is a good model: it lists China, France, the Soviet Union, the UK and the US with a link to a larger article on all the Allies at the bottom of the list. Likewise, the Axis column lists only the Germany, Italy and Japan.

Is there a consensus on exactly which conflicts are part of the War on Terror? Soviet Canuckistan 21:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I just removed the list of combatants and the casulties aswell as everything in that small info block on the top right hand side of the page. It provided no accurate information at all. Its been over a week and despite the fact its been pointed out France and Germany are not included on the list nothing has been done to change it.

Until in discussion a detailed list of these things can be agreed to, it should not be put on the article page.

Simon - 2:47am BST 31st of July 2007

Well someone undid the changes.. Do the people who make re edit pages actually read the discussion page? The amount of debate on the issue of whos on whos side shows this must be changed. This article is very insulting to countries that are putting 1000s of troops on the ground in dangerous locations.. to be "left out" of these lists.

Simon - 2:55am BST 31st of July 2007

Agree we should have the most complete information possible, splitting off to another article if needed -- since you seem to be interested, would you be able or willing to find some sourcing as to the other information you've mentioned? :) – Luna Santin (talk) 02:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of information / sources of this even on Wiki, the problem is the "war on terror" is such an open ended phrase its almost impossible to define with agreement from all sides. This is why i believe in an attempt to avoid clear bias and incorrect information the "Casualties and Combatants lists" should be removed. Im not very happy with the way some of the article is written but people look at the data on the right hand side thinking its the basic facts and go away believing the list as they are use to seeing it for other conflicts such as WW2.

Now there are huge arguments about who belongs on which side of the list and i really can not understand why some have been left out. The biggest problem i have is the fact ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) is not being included. The "War on Terror" began with the invasion of Afghanistan

"The War in Afghanistan (2001–present) began on October 7, 2001, as a response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the United States of America (U.S.). This marked the beginning of the U.S. War on Terrorism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)

The above page lists the ISAF as a combatant in the conflict along with Afghanistan and the Northern alliance who both appear on the combatant list of the "War on Terror" page but ISAF doesnt. If we can agree Afghanistan is part of the "war on terror" surely its common sense to include ISAF.

This would only offer a small improvement though, for some reason France and Germany are purposely being kept off this list of combatants which is what i have a major problem with. For example Slovakia is listed as a combatant the link below shows a list of current contributions to the ISAF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force#Contributing_nations

According to this, Slovakia is providing 60 engineers, France 1000 troops and Germany 3000. How is it right a country with 3000 troops on the ground is not worthy of being named when Slovakia is? This really is insulting to many people, especially those with family serving in the military forces of those countries.

There are many questions, What is China doing on there? Should the United Nations, the European Union and NATO be included on the list? What about Saudi Arabia who have foiled plots by Al-Qaeda? (Listned on casualties but not combatants). Should Iran be listed as an enemy combatant as we have documented evidence they are providing support to other members on that list? What about Russia who are supply Iran with weapons? The list of enemy combatants suggests they are all on the same side, even though some of the groups listed fight each other aswell. These are just a few of many questions some people have.

This is not war its a phrase, therefor it should not have the combatant / casualties list. Unless someone can do a really good editing job with this without any bias i cant see any option but to delete it.

Simon - 12:02 PM BST - 31st of July 2007 (Sorry about the two boxes on part of the text i dont understand how they were added or how to remove them)

OK here is what I say about the shortening of the combatant list, use World war two as a model, they put only the major players in the box and a link to the list of all of the others. Also you are wrong War on terrorism is not just a phrase. It's a global conflict just like the Cold war was. Are you going to say that the Cold war was just a phrase. As for the combatant list, leave the link that is already there to the full list of players and put only the big ones, and here is the gys I recomend: United States, United Kingdom, Israel, Russia, Pakistan, Canada (because of the great contribution to Afghanistan), Iraq (post-Sadam), India, Saudi Arabia, Phillipines, Ethiopia (the Somali front against the ICU). And I think that is preaty much enough, anyone else want to add one or two more be may guest, but I think this is enough, if anyone doesn't abject by tomorow I will make these changes then. User:Top Gun

The Cold war was totally different, the enemy was clearly defined. (Soviet Union and Communist countries / ideals) Terrorism is just a tactic, used by different groups for different goals, for example

HAMAS want the destruction of Israel and to free Palestine, the terrorists who attacked the Russian school wanted to liberate their people from Russian occupation, Hezbollah was formed to resist Israeli occupation of Lebanon, while these groups may use some of the same tactics as Al-Qaeda they are totally different. Claiming they are all the same has made it harder for us to resolve the different issues.

Now you say "Canada (because of the great contribition to Afghanistan) What about France and Germany? What about Italy sending troops to the border of Israel / Lebanon? As Hezbollah is an enemy combatant surely Italy belongs on the combatant list aswell?

As for the Casualties lists in the info box, why include something that has to be updated almost everyday yet provides little important information. Some of the Casualties listed include FATAH, why is this on the list when its not on the combatant list? While there is genuine debate about who belongs on each side of the list or if its needed at all i think the Casualties list is just sloppy, and too hard to keep up to date. People can read the actual article and go on for further reading about deaths for specific conflicts in the "War on Terror"

I also took a quick look at the "Cold war" wiki page, it does not have the list of combatants, or casualties in an information box on the right. If there isnt one for a "war" thats finished and far easier to define the two sides how can we even consider having one for this? The changes you suggest would still leave the same problems, but i do agree it shouldnt have such a huge list of countries in the one box.

- Simon - 9:50pm BST - 31st of July 2007

Yet again I think you are wrong. The war on terrorism I would say is even much clearly defined. The enemy is RADICAL ISLAMISM (that is THE one point that connects all of the groups fighting the West, even if they differ in tactics and some points of their ideology they all belong to radical Islam). As for the casualties numbers, if it is such a big thing I will update the numbers every week or so, it's not your problem and I don't see how it is sloppy, the numbers are all verified, checked and sourced, and for the sake of the infobox I only included the military casualties. In regards to Fatah, they fight Hamas which is an enemy of the U.S. and the west, and if it is not on the combatant list then put it their yourself and don't make a fuss over it. AHH HELL ENOUGH OF DEBATE, I AM SHORTENING THE LIST, STOP TALKING AND START DOING SOMETHING, THERE IS ALREADY A LINK TO THE FULL LIST OF ALLIES SO WHAT FUNCTION DOES THIS LARGE LIST HAVE HERE?User:Top Gun

I did something yesterday, I deleted the Combatants list and Casualties list because both have too many problems and it appears no one agrees on who belongs where, Sadly someone undid the change so i simply ask someone to fix this article.

The war on terror is just a war on Radical Islam? If thats the case can you explain why the term "Radical Islam" is not even mentioned ONCE in the entire article? Perhaps the casualties list should be updated daily? It appears the list of combatants continues to grow, if we are going to have such a long list which includes something like "Fatah" the EU, NATO, ISAF and other such forces should be added.

One solution i could see to the problem is instead of listing countries in a combatant list, there could be a link to another page where it lists countries taking part in the "War on Terror" and what they actually are doing / did. For example : FATAH - Fighting the Terrorist organisation HAMAS. France - Taking part in the war in Afghanistan and playing a role in the ISAF. Lebanon - Fighting the extremist group Fatah al-Islam in a Palestinian refuge camp. Atleast that way listing all these "combatants" would be justified with a brief explanation of what they have done.

- Simon - 10:45pm BST - 31st of July 2007 -

There seems to be confusion about what this is actually about. This article does not talk about a conflict against Islamism. Its about a specific campaign being waged by the United States and allies. Its easy to define what is and isnt in the campaign by the comments of administrations and authorizations of war. Combatants are therefore easy to determine from this. Major combatants belong on this page, less major and minor combatants belong on the linked to page. ~Rangeley (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Major Combatants

I have been reverted twice already in my efforts to scale back the list of major combatants. Let me first clarify this point: We do not need to include every nation in the infobox combatant list - and further, excluding a nation does not mean they are not contributing to the campaign. We have seperate articles for the total lists of combatants, the infobox should only state the main combatants in order to save space.

Now, lets just settle once and for all who is, and is not, a major combatant.

• United States - 150k troops in Iraq, ~30k in Afghanistan, initiator of the campaign, contributor to nearly every component. Pretty obvious on this one.
• United Kingdom - 45k originally in Invasion of Iraq, ~5k in Iraq now, thousands involved in Afghanistan, another obvious one.
• Israel - 30k troops involved in 2006 Lebanon War which was begun and designated a part of the us-led WoT.
• Canada - Highly involved in Afghanistan, leading/led operations at one point.
• Australia - Highly involved throughout, had several thousand in Iraq invasion, still involved.
• Iraq - Has about 150k soldiers involved in Iraq War, army built for a counterinsurgency
• Afghanistan - Has about 40k soldiers involved in Afghanistan war.
• Pakistan - Thousands of troops involved in Waziristan war.
• Philippines - OEF Philippines occuring within it, many troops involved.
• Somalia - Thousands involved in Somalian War against ICU.
• Ethiopia - Thousands involved in Somalian War against ICU.
• Lebanon - Leading major operations in 2007 Lebanon conflict.

Now, here is for nations currently included, which should not be.

• Saudi Arabia - Saudi Insurgency is not a major component, and is not on the scale of the other nations remotely.
• Turkey - No significant troop contributions to any theatre. I have yet to see any proof that there have been any US-led operations against the PKK which had Turkish involvement.
• Russia - The Chechnyan war predates the campaign and was not begun under it. While Russia has contributed to the US-led campaign, it was hardly a major contribution.
• India - India has done anti terror raids in its own country, but so havent many others. They have not contributed significant forces to any theatre of conflict.

And now for one I am not sure about.

• Fatah - Is the Palestinian civil war a part of the WoT, or not? If it is, perhaps Fatah is a major combatant. If not though, it obviously cant be.

Now for an abbreviated look at the other side. Given the above, some of these dont really require further clarification.

• al-Qaeda - Obvious.
• Iraqi insurgency - Obvious.
• Taliban - Obvious.
• Ba'athist Iraq - Obvious.
• Islamic Courts Union - Obvious.
• Tribes in Waziristan - Obvious.
• Abu Sayyaf - Major target of OEF Philippines.
• Jemaah Islamiyah - Major target of OEF Philippines.
• Hezbollah - Obvious.

Those that should not be...

• PKK - Certainly not a major target of any conflict.
• Chechen separatists - Its very unlikely that a US-led attack will be waged in Russia any time soon, and one certainly has not occured yet.
• Patani separatists - These Thailand separatists are a target, but just like Thailand is not a major combatant, neither are the separatists.

And those that might be...

• Hamas - Just like Fatah, depends on whether its a part of the WoT.

Does anyone have any objections to these points? And what of the civil war? ~Rangeley (talk) 14:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the inclusion of the Palestinian civil war and associate combatants is contingent on whether or not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a front of the War on Terrorism. If it is, than Hamas and Fatah (I would leave it there; the PFLP and their ilk are all relatively minor players.) should be included. Instead of just "Iraqi insurgency," why not name one or two of the major insurgent groups, such as the Mahdi Army (I understand the degree to which Muqtada al-Sadr has disarmed is debatable.)? If you're going to include Ethiopia and Somalia, you should include the Islamic Courts, or whatever their current name is, as well. Like "Iraqi insurgency," "tribes of Waziristan" is kind of ambiguous. If they have a flag, there's probably some sort of centralised organisation. Hope that helps. Soviet Canuckistan 04:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The changes that have been made are a good improvement, but as this is a list of major combatants could NATO and flag be added to the list on the main page? I accept the "others page" shows members of nato who are taking part but NATO itself is now playing the lead role in Afghanistan. Including it would also avoid arguments of people saying members like France and Germany belong on the list. I agree with you about India, Russia and Saudi Arabia being removed. If HAMAS is to remain on the enemy combatants list which it probably should as both EU and US say its a terrorist organisation, FATAH should be kept on the good list.

Thankyou very much for the recent changes made, no doubt it is FAR better now than it was a week ago.

- Simon - BST 6am August 2nd 2007 -

The reason its Iraqi Insurgency as opposed to the various components is strictly a space saving measure. Waziristan tribes has been replaced with Islamic Emirate of Waziristan. And I dont know that putting NATO on there makes sense, because having the USA/Canada/UK up and NATO up is redundant, but leaving out these three countries and just having NATO would leave the three of the most major players from being shown. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not annoyed or anything, but why was my alphabetisation undone? I think having the list of combatants in alphabetical order is ideal because otherwise we have to start deciding who's more important than whom. Obviously the United States would be at the top, but it gets less clear after that. Soviet Canuckistan 23:32, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I am unsure why, but once again Top Gun has reverted every single edit to the infobox. If people could please participate in discussion if they have objections to something, that would be much better. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

It appears that we all agree on on a group of core participants. As far as I can tell, they are:

On the OEF side: US, UK, Australia, Canada, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Ethiopia

On the other side: al-Qaeda, Taliban, Somali Islamists, Waziristan, Iraqi insurgency

So, how about anyone with any additional suggestions say so here and include a reason for why their combatant should be included? Soviet Canuckistan 03:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like I'll start. In addition to the above, I would add Israel and Lebanon simply because they are respectively the chief adversaries of Hamas and Hezbollah, which are included.

I think that we need to remember that the War on Terrorism is a US-led initiative, and therefore we need to look at it from the American POV, so Russia, Turkey and Thailand and India shouldn't be included. Soviet Canuckistan 23:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the United States of America and the United Kingdom should be included on the list and kept at the top. Adding NATO to the list of combatants wouldnt change this at all, it is fact that NATO is carrying out operations in Afghanistan and is now playing the lead role. US and UK could be on the list for their action in Iraq just to avoid confusion anyway. I just think even though the list has been shortened, "NATO" deserves a place on the list so atleast all those providing alot of troops are represented.

Is there any reason why they "shouldnt" be included?

- Simon 6:16AM BST Sunday 05 of August 2007 -

Just the confusion/redundancy factor. As I said earlier, I dont really like the idea of having NATO and the US both on the infobox, and if I had to leave one off it, it would be NATO. ~Rangeley (talk) 06:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have a problem with putting NATO on the list as USA / Uk etc are in NATO and it could cause confusion, perhaps putting "ISAF" on the list instead of NATO would be a better option. ISAF is the name given to the operation and what most countries contributing troops to Aghanistan fall under. (The USA still has some troops operating independently)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force

I think leaving them off the list is far more inaccurate and there for more important than the possibility of a couple of people being confused. It is fact Afghanistan was the first country to be attacked in the war on terror and fact the ISAF is the major combatant in that country. So there for ISAF should be on that list.

- Simon - 16:10 BST - Sunday 05 August 2007 -

That would be a good compromise. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

As Hamas is no longer part of the Palestinian government, can we changed "Fatah" to "Palestinian Authority." Soviet Canuckistan 05:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Size

Just like the Iraq War, this article is creeping up in size. Its around 85kb, which is nearly three times as big as the maximum size for articles, 32kb. Before it gets even more out of hand, we should prune it and get rid of some of the superfluity. The infobox was a nice first step, but the rest will be more challenging. Here are some things I think should be greatly pruned/removed.

• External Links, Further reading. I am never a fan of these sections in articles, and we should consider removing most if not all of them, keeping any bare essentials if they actually exist. These two sections take up 15kb of the 85kb article, and in my opinion, add nearly nothing. This is a solid place to shorten the article in my view.

• Casualties section. This is basically a verbatim representation of a study done by a newspaper. We should replace this section with one more syncronized with our own casualty count, and possibly split the content off to another article, leaving only a breif summary on this page. This is only 3KB, so its not that big, it just needs work.

• Criticisms, Role of US media. These two sections are 14kb combined, and had already been split off once to the Criticisms of the War on Terrorism article. They seem to have snuck back onto this page however, removing the purpose of the other page. A few things must be remembered here. One, this is not a pro/con article where the pros and cons are outlined. It is an encyclopedic article which describe what the War on Terror campaign is. The body of the article is not pro WoT, its encyclopedic. Having a large criticism section listing the "cons" in the name of balancing the article out is infact putting it out of balance, because there is no section listing the pros (nor should there be.) The War on Terror is a controversial topic, this is indisputable, and this should be noted. We can note some prominent opponents and critics, even cite quotations of them. But having a multi paragraph and multi header section as we do here, which merely copies talking points, is extremely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. If we scaled things back, noted the controversy, reported the controversy, but abstain from parroting the entire arguments from one side or the other, we can save considerable space on this article. (For a fairly good example of what it should look like, take a look at Iraq_War#Criticisms. Its concise, notes the controversy, and leads people to other articles rather than taking up tons of space.)

And just pruning.

• Theatres of operations. We already have another article to go in depth on, and its time to scale some of the sections back here. We dont need to give lengthy summaries of the Iraq War, Afghan War, etc. We just need a basic, breif summary of important points, and their relation to the WoT. There are entire articles about those wars, we dont need to try and fit everything about them on this too. This entire section is 31kb, so theres a lot of potential to get things down.

There may be more areas, but if we focus on these ones, we can get a lot done. Any additional thoughts on this? ~Rangeley (talk) 00:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I have begun to size things down, and reduced it 42kb to 43kb total. I moved the criticisms to the other article, moved casualties to the other article, and moved further reading to another article. I also began to shorten some of the theatre sections. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Russia???

The Template:War_on_Terrorism has Russia as "Participant in operations", with Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Chechens grouped together as "Targets of operations".

This is just weird and totally wrong:

1. In the Arab-Israeli conflict the US (and EU/NATO) supports Israel, while Russia supports Hamas and Hezbollah.
2. In the Russo-Chechen conflict everyone else is neutral (more or less), and "Campaigns and theatres of operation" do not include Russia, too.

Also, War on Terrorism - Theaters of operation article is a crap (compare with the main list here). --HanzoHattori 07:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

We dealt with this problem here already, the articles branching off arent all brought into sync with this though. The Chechen war is not a part of the US-led WoT campaign, but Russia has made minor contributions to the WoT elsewhere. Not major enough to warrant an inclusion in the infobox here, or the template there, however. And Chechens play no role whatsoever. ~Rangeley (talk) 17:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay. And actually, I don't know about Israel too. The Israeli-Arab conflict is pretty localised. Nationalist-Islamist Palestinians or Lebanese don't attack US or European targets (at least nowadays), and Israel didn't contribute to any American war ever. (The war "against terror" is actually the war against al-Qaeda and its immediate allies, just rather melodramatically named.) --HanzoHattori 18:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a whole is not a part of this, but specific portions of it are. The United States aided Israel under the WoT campaign in its war against Hezbollah, and both nations stated that it was part of the WoT. The WoT is not only against al Qaeda. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure it was not the usual U.S. support for Israel, as continued since many years before 2001? --HanzoHattori 22:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, from statements such as this [9]. ~Rangeley (talk) 22:07, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, okay. Hezbollah statements also related to Israel as the American proxy. --HanzoHattori 11:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

WOT Article

I know that this article was getting pretty large and we needed to cut it down but it seems as though over the past week or so we reduced the content to the point that its nothing but references and links to other articles. We have been cutting into muscle for some time now and if we lose much more this article will cease to be useful. I recommend we take a close look before making any more changes and reducing the content even more. --Kumioko 19:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, we are taking a close look. This section is devoted to the size issue, and I point out a few areas which were unecessarilly large (or totally unecessary.) No content has been removed entirely from Wikipedia, all has been outsourced to other articles, except some external links. The largest content section which was scaled back was "Criticism," using the method employed at the Iraq War article (touching on controversies, but leaving the depth for the separate article.) I completely outsourced the "further reading" section to another article, and scaled back external links, which exceeded by far what the guidelines of Wikipedia describe. The information on Pakistan has been exported to its own article, and scaled down. A few other theatre sections have been scaled back (their individual articles are for the depth.) I agree with you that the article is a bit sketchy as far as its usefulness goes, and is severely lacking in some areas. But this has nothing to do with the recent removals, though perhaps its easier to see just how few muscles and bones were holding the article together now that the fat is being cut away. ~Rangeley (talk) 00:18, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with the need to keep this article readable and admire most of the edits that have been made. However, I'm a little worried about the degree to which the criticisms section has been scaled back, especially as that section contained an important section on international support for the WOT. That section was added as a CSB attempt to make sure the article included global perspectives, which I now feel are underrepresented. Also, while I agree streamlining is important, I don't think we want to cut so much that basic information is missing from a section. For example, we now have the sentence: "The U.S. media has also received criticism for its coverage of the War on Terrorism." It seems like some indication of the origin and substance of the criticism should be given, however briefly. As is, it's a fragment, not a summary. I'll make no changes until I hear others' thoughts. Thanks for helping to improve the entry.Benzocane 00:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, I'm having trouble confirming this statement: "No content has been removed entirely from Wikipedia." Can you refer me to the Int'l support section? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious. Benzocane 00:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I transferred the US media section to criticisms, but appear to have missed the international support section (added it now though). And as to criticisms, I dont view it as anything more than a placeholder at the moment. You are certainly free to add to it yourself, having to rebuild sections from the ground up alone is a somewhat daunting task. ~Rangeley (talk) 01:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Fatah-Hamas Conflict

I don't think it should be included in the War on terrorism. BTW Fatah's al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade is also considered a terrorist organisation. The Honorable Kermanshahi 11:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

It's related with the war against terrorism but it's mainly a part of the israeli-palestinian conflict. Mrpouetpouet 19:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Islam in the target range

Which and how many, if any, of the WOT enemies are not Muslim groups, people or countries? Because it just seems to me like War on Islamist Terrorism might be a more factual name. VolatileChemical 18:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the name wasnt chosen by us for being descriptive, its the name given to the campaign by the US government. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Wow. That really doesn't answer my first and only question at all. Not even close. Absolutely no where near even being close. VolatileChemical 13:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I was clearly not answering your question, but responding to your second sentence. Accurate or not, this is what the campaign was named by the USA, and thats why we have it at this namespace - its their campaign, much like the Great Leap Forward is at that location even though it is laughably ill named. If you are just trying to initiate a discussion about what the USA should have named the campaign, this is the wrong place to do it. ~Rangeley (talk) 04:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Combatant list

I don't understand why Indonesia and Islamic state of Iraq cann't be added to the list of combatants, Indonesia may not have any mayor troop contributions on the main frontlines but has been under constant attack by terrorists and has played a wital role in the intelegence war and hunt for Al-Qaeda sleeper cells and agents. Also the Islamic state of Iraq is the largest Sunni insurgents group in Iraq, Al-Qaeda in Iraq is part of that group, it should be added also to the list.User_talk:Top Gun

As we established above, [10], leaving nations off the infobox list does not mean they are not combatants. The infobox list is just the major combatants, those nations or groups which are contributing thousands of troops to a theatre of the campaign. Lots of nations have done lots of work on the covert front, but this is hardly as major as sending thousands of troops into harms way. For this reason, Indonesia goes on the complete list of combatants (separate article) but not this list of major ones. Further, the "Islamic State of Iraq" is pretty much nothing more than a propaganda ploy and is hardly significant enough, in itself, to warrant inclusion in the list of major combatants. Al Qaeda in Iraq is, on the other hand, significant in and of itself to warrant inclusion. ~Rangeley (talk) 05:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I can agree on the Indonesia part but highly disagree on the insurgent group, you don't want to include them because of their propaganda name? It doesn't matter what they are called, they are the largest Sunni insurgent group there is and should be included.User_talk:Top Gun

Its not the name that I take issue with, its that the "Islamic State of Iraq" is nothing more than a front group made by al-Qaeda in Iraq - essentially a propaganda ploy. There is no evidence of it existing in any true form, and none of the al-Qaeda in Iraq "claims" about it have beared any fruit (for instance its supposed "leader" turned out to be an Egyptian actor.) As you cant really target what is ostensibly an imaginary organization, it would be silly for us to think it a major target of this campaign. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The Islamic state of Iraq is an alliance of 8 Sunni groups and isn't really a group of it's own, otherwise we could also include NATO. The Honorable Kermanshahi 11:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Just a Few Thoughts...

First, I know there is a lot of criticism and controversy surrounding this issue, but can we consider offering a general definition as to what the War on Terror is in the first section, and put the controversy in its own secion later on?

Second, can someone please explain to me exactly why the Soviet Union is listed as an ally in the section on the right that explains who the fighting parties are?

Third, can we consider changing the wording of the first sentence to saying that it was a campaign begun by the U.S. Government and not just the Bush Administration, especially considering congress voted for the war which in turn kicked the campaign off? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.26.68.146 (talk) 19:27, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

First, No because this is an article about this peticular War on terrorism.

Second, that was vandalism.

Third, With that I agree because Bush's successors will continue this war. The Honorable Kermanshahi 10:14, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

ad 3. How do you know? Clairvoyant? --Raphael1 11:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, even if it continues beyond the Bush Administration, it will still have been "begun by the Bush Administration," no? ~Rangeley (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

That is true, the Bush administration started it but I think it is more of a U.S. campaign than a Bush administration campaign. The Honorable Kermanshahi 18:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Name Change (again)

I changed the title containing the text "War of Terror" to "War on Terror". The term "War on Terror" is a controversial, problematic and perhaps even Orwellian term, but that is nevertheless the term that is most often used by those who are leading this so-called war. The term "War of Terror" seems more like an editorial statement on the war than an appropriate title for this article.

See War on Terrorism (historical) for the quote from Bush that started this particular enterprise, and note that "War on Terror" is the phrase that was used.

If you think that the "War on Terror" is more accurately called a "War of Terror", then an appropriate place to note the reasons for this might be in the article Criticism_of_the_War_on_Terrorism.

Pconrad0 02:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I find "War on Terrorism" a lot more editorialised than "War on Terror," because it means editors deliberately chose not to name the article the way people name the subject of the article. The term War on Terror may be problematic, but it's the correct name. It's not Wikipedia who invented it, it was George W. Bush. The article says that. If people find this a problematic term, their problem is with George W. Bush and other people who like the term. Wikipedia will only be doing its job by calling the War on Terror by the name given to it by its creator. A.Z. 03:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I had misunderstood what Pconrad0 had said. When they wrote "War of terror", I thought they meant "War on Terrorism". A.Z. 04:01, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Guys this change is a very big problem. Every sub-article of this article has in its name "war on terrorism". It's totally confusing for the reader and do not suit to wikipedia quality. This title change is perhaps a good idea in theory but it can't work changing only the name of the main article.

So either we change the name of every template and sub-articles (I mean the pro-title-change have to do it) or we have to change the title back. Mrpouetpouet 16:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Title

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. "War on Terror" seems to be the more common name, and there seems to be general support for applying WP:COMMONNAME here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Has there been any discussion about the title? I believe it's more commonly known as "War on Terror"? A.Z. 17:42, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Google has more hits to "war on terror". A.Z. 17:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, A.Z. There are extensive discussions above on the title of the article. As a newcomer to this article, I'm going to reserve my opinion for now, but it does seem like you have a point. Stanselmdoc 16:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I read the discussions I found, and they don't seem extensive. I think that the only way we're ever going to reach a conclusion is if people state their opinion, not reserve them. A.Z. 19:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hahaha, you're quite right, A.Z. The reason I didn't offer my opinion before was because this particular issue seems to be discussed constantly on this talk page, and I didn't want to jump into the middle of it without reading the previous discussions (and actually forming my own solid opinion). Well, my opinion agrees with yours, I have to say. When discussing the war in the real world, I don't think I've ever heard it referred to as the "War on Terrorism". I definitely consider it the "War on Terror", and was very surprised to be redirected to this page when I looked up War on Terror. Stanselmdoc 19:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised and disappointed. I think we should wait for Pconrad0's response to my post above. I think I have shown that their arguments are flawed. They wrote "The term 'War on Terror' is a controversial, problematic and perhaps even Orwellian term, but that is nevertheless the term that is most often used by those who are leading this so-called war." It's not only the term most often used by those who are leading the so-called war, it's also the term most often used by everyone, including opposers of the war. Of course, opposers will criticize the term as they criticize the war. While supporters will take the term and the war seriously, opposers will be ironic towards both. If they think the name is Orwellian, the most likely is that they also think the war is Orwellian, but PconradO hasn't suggested that we rewrite the entire article so it doesn't look like we're talking about an Orwellian war. And to say that the war on terror is a war on terrorism is obviously original research. We should document, not judge. We should delete the page War on Terror and move this page to that title. A.Z. 20:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I crossed part of the post above because Pconrad0 was actually referring to "War of terror", not "War on terrorism". A.Z. 04:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support move 2 Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism. Ewlyahoocom 07:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The true name is "War on Terrorism", War on Terror was first used as metaphor by pro-war journalist. "It's not only the term most often used by those who are leading the so-called war. it's also the term most often used by everyone, including opposers of the war." Sorry but I never heard an opposer using this term. It's useless to change a good title to use a controversial and not NPOV one AND remember the name "war on terror" is quoted on the first line of the article. Mrpouetpouet 10:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Who said that the true name (whatever that means) is "War on Terrorism"? As I said above and below and now here, opposers refer to this event as the war on terror, though they make it clear that they don't agree it is one. Wikipedia conventioned to use controversial terms for names of articles, if they are the words normally used to refer to the subject. A.Z. 17:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• I added mention of Borat's wisecrack (War of Terror) as it is a very wildly held belief outside the US. I also note that War of terror is a redirect to this page. Though popular fiction, its use to expose something to one audience (non-US) as well as to ridicule a real US audience at a rodeo offered a stark display of attitudes, understanding and the state of play. This remark may well need to be moved lower in the article, but I think it does have merit. His phrase War of Terror can be looked at as ridicule or commentary - either way it has some frightening implications.24.7.91.244 05:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

• It is also worth noting that many non-US media outlets use the phrase so-called War on Terror. The inherent problem here is that the subject's name was crafted very deliberately to mislead or to deliver a one-sided POV, so as to make the public believe the war is about something other than old-fashioned empire building. Of course the classic Wiki Fudge would be Allegations of a War on Terrorism which would be utterly daft and I am not proposing that. It would be nice if it was a War on Terror, but sadly I think Borat hit the nail on the head. I don't think we can rename the article, but I do think it should be made less biased and also to draw attention to the spin/doublespeak in the name - as I think almost everyone would agree that since its start, terrorism globally has skyrocketed. 24.7.91.244 05:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the naming convention according to which "if there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view" applies here. Strangely, someone added as an example of the use of that convention the title "War on Terrorism", even though Google gives six times more results to "war on terror" than to "war on terrorism". I think opposers do call it the war on terror, using quotation marks or saying "the so-called war on terror," as mentioned above. A.Z. 17:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should call it war on terror, not because google gives more results though -(this is not a reliable source to give the war a name). The US, who initiated the war call it 'war on terror' thus we should call it war on terror addy gAddy-g-indahouse 04:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. If the US called it some name but a different name somehow became established in all the rest of the world, we should call it the second name. A.Z. 04:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with A.Z. For instance, the American Civil War is still known by some as the War of Northern Aggression, but because the Civil War, or the American Civil War, have become more widely used, that is what it is called. So in this article, it should be titled War on Terror, with notes mentioning what other countries/groups/journalists call it. Stanselmdoc 03:14, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Support for the war on terror

There should be a mention of how Al Qaeda and Bin Laden's support continues to fall throughout the middle east. Judgesurreal777 21:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Scope of article

This may sound stupid, but I'm very confused about what the scope of this article is supposed to be. From the introduction, it appears to be exclusively about the "campaign initiated by the United States government under President George W. Bush...following the September 11, 2001 attacks". However, it then goes on to discuss various acts of terrorism, anti-terrorism operations and conflicts that don't seem to have anything to do with this. For example, the section about India talks about various terrorist acts in India and anti-terrorism measures implemented by the Indian government, and doesn't even attempt to tie this in with the "campaign initiated by the United States...", indeed it states that "India's war against terrorism precedes the American war on terrorism". Some other sections appear to have the same problem (no assertion of the relationship with the "War on Terror"): Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Indonesia.
Actually, I have a couple of other random questions:

• Under Horn of Africa, what is "The regions and areas of Operation Iraqi Freedom." supposed to be saying? Should this be "...from the regions and areas..."?
• What about "Somalia became the mother of all operations..." - is this a quote?

Bistromathic 16:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The whole article is in a bad state and there seems to be a confusion about what it actually is about. It seems that people are confusing USA's campaing with... everything else related to terrorism.--Sir Anon 22:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Globally

I don't understand what the word "globally" means in the sentence: "The phrase "War on Terror" started being used globally to refer to the U.S. campaign in Iraq and elsewhere by members of the American Republican Party, who were advised to do that by Frank Luntz." a.z. 03:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Image caption

The infobox image caption is absolutely ridiculous. It currently reads:

• US Soldiers attempting to destroy al-Qaeda and Taliban forces in the Shahi-Kot Valley and Arma Mountains southeast of Zormat during the Operation Anaconda

This is what it should be:

• US Soldiers boarding a CH-47 Chinook helicopter in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda

I think the current caption is totally loaded and inaccurate. I understand that they were undergoing a mission to destroy al-Qaeda and Taliban forces, but that's certainly not what they're doing in that picture. They're getting on a helicopter! Look at the picture. Do ya see any US Soldiers destroying or "attempting to destroy" anything in that picture? No. KDR 14:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with a slight modification :)

• US Soldiers boarding a CH-47 Chinook helicopter in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda in the Shahi-Kot Valley and Arma Mountains southeast of Zormat.

Mrpouetpouet 22:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least someone agrees. I am going to change it to your version. KDR 03:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, someone did it already. Haha. Good! KDR 03:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Turkey-PKK conflict

I have a proposition, should we maybe add the Turkey-PKK conflict to this article. But not the entire conflict. Just only the part of the conflict this year (2007) that has been conducted since it was proposed for the first time to invade northern Iraq. The PKK is a terrorist organisation on the US terror list and also if Turkey invades Iraq, which is most likely since yesterdays killing of 17 soldiers and capturing of 10, the US will most probably be involved to some degree. And also the terrorist PKK is based in Iraq which is part of the WoT. So what does everybody say.Top Gun —Preceding comment was added at 14:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The war is against al-quadia and its allies since 2001. The situation of the PKK is different and is only related to Irak war and not to the war on terrorism. Remember also that the PKK is an ennemy of the US only on paper, and that wikipedia is more interested in facts.

Mrpouetpouet 16:59, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

War on Terrorism

This article should be renamed War on Terrorism since that is the more proper term and is only 3 less letters, WP:NC(P). "War on Terror" is a very informal, unencyclopedic term that misrepresents what the war really is about, terrorism. The article is not categorized as Terror but instead Terrorism. I feel the article was moved a month ago unjustly and I will move it back to its rightful name.--Southern Texas 03:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The name of the article should be the name that is in common use. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). I'll give you an opportunity to respond, but unless you do so in a convincing way, I will move this page back tomorrow. –RHolton≡– 04:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it. I feel "War on Terror" is a misrepresentation of what the content of the article is really about. A google search finds that twice as many results come up for "War on Terror" than "War on Terrorism" but we cannot be sure that the usage is uniform. Terror can denote many things but terrorism is more specific and is what represents this article. Although "War on Terror" shows more results in the search engine the difference from "War on Terrorism" is only three letters, WP:NC(P). War on Terrorism is closer to its actual name, "Global war on terrorism" and represents the subject. I don't feel that consensus was reached to change the name but if I am wrong I do apologize.--Southern Texas 04:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• How about moving to Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism? just kidding--victor falk 06:41, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

As an outside observer, neither entry even seems better or worse to me. I've heard the phrase "War on Terror" a bit more, so I would be slightly inclined to prefer it. I think the three most important things to consider are the burden for changing the name, which term is more relevant to the current article, and which term is being used in other articles (for consistency). Just my two cents. --69.210.15.210 02:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Fix Overview Section

With Firefox the boxes are overlapping the text and [edit] link. I looked at it but don't know wiki html well enough to fix it. Carol Moore 14:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)User:Carolmooredc User talk:Carolmooredc

Fixed

Mrpouetpouet 23:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The Infobox

The infobox list a whole bunch of numbers without citations.

1. I don't understand how it is even possible to obtain a definite list of numbers of "targets" as the list of targets seems to be ever-expanding and I somehow doubt that they advertise their numbers.
2. "Military casualties only"? Most of these groups listed in "targets" are not military.
3. "Over 200,000 civilians killed" - how was this figure arrived at and what does it include? Surely if you count all of USA's operations, you'd get significantly more than that.--Sir Anon 23:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at the specific articles Mrpouetpouet 23:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Those articles are not very well written and have major citation problems. And it still does not explain most of the things.--Sir Anon 03:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Russia was added

Russia was added. The War on Terrorism is the war against the Islamic Jihad Terrorism, and Russia probably fits more then anybody. Should we remond you that USSR were the first who started a war against the Taliban and bin-Laden (rased by the USA, by the way). Russia today fights against the Chechenian Terrorists, which are financed and hiven weapon by Al-queda. Russia should be here (and by the way, i'm not the first stating that. Many stated that before me, but it seems a minority holds this article hostage not giving any change they dont like to stick.

And by the way, in what campaigns against terrorism did Canada and France take part in?? Those are states i dont understand why they are here! No Free Nickname Left 18:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC) [edit]

Russia should not be added here, second Chechenian war is cleary not part of war on terrorism, Russians were already at war with Chechen for centuries before 2001 Mrpouetpouet 23:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

POV tag

(Regarding [11]) There are plenty of neutrality issues in this article. And I'm not the one who brought most of them up. To name a few sections already on this talk page just from a quick look: List of Combatants..., Scope of article, The Infobox, Israel wrongly placed, etc, etc. And I may add that the article is pretty one sided, focusing on the people behind the political campaign, almost completely forgetting the damage and the victims, as well as the view of the other side (labelled as "targets").--Sir Anon 23:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is not a bad for NPOV is one might expect, but 'Combattants' definitely does not have a place. "War on Terrorism" is not the name of a war, it is a marketing slogan, and an obsolete one at that. Peter Grey 03:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"List of Combatants..., Scope of article, The Infobox, Israel wrongly placed"

I agree there are some problems with this article. Points like participation of Israel or the structure of the article itself aren't clear, and that can be confusing. The list of combatants problem is also an important one. However most of minor problems [Talk:War on Terrorism#Scope of article|Scope of article]], The Infobox, Israel wrongly placed were resolved.

However, there is no major POV problem on this article. I agree most of military informations concern allied side, but it's very difficult to find reliable sources from the other side. There are also specific sections about allied side, like the role of us media or the allies' population mind. In this case, sections about the arab vision of the campaign and perhaps role of arab media will be useful. It's the only real problem in this article with the NPOV.

"it is a marketing slogan, and an obsolete one at that." Yeah and ? Since when a war cannot be derived from the marketing slogan ? The name, which must be used according to wikipedia policy is the most common name.

Mrpouetpouet 22:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

List of combatants (again)

Sorry people, but this keeps coming up. The list of combatants, as it currently stands, is OR and should be removed. Unless you can find a source from the US government that says which states are helping them in their "War on Terrorism" campaign, then the list should be removed and replaced by a phrase which describes a number of individual campaigns for which lists of combatants can be cited. ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 11:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely, it is one (or several) of unverified/confused/original research and needs to be removed.--Sir Anon 11:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I see the list comes and goes. Could somebody please explain the rationale for having one? AJKGORDON«» 19:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria?

This has been raised by others before but nobody has addressed the issue. Why are the following on this page:

1. Lebanon
2. Saudi Arabia
3. Gaza Strip/West Bank
4. India
5. Indonesia
6. Philippines

This Wikipedia article is the first time I've heard of any of these countries co-operating with USA on the same conflicts. "War on Terrorism" is a US policy/campaign/slogan - so I don't see how these belong on this page. If they do belong here, where are the references that say that they are part of the US campaign? --Sir Anon (talk) 11:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

That's just the thing this is not only an American conflict, it's an international conflict, maybe the phrase war on terror was started by the Americans, but the war shure is not only an American war. Just like World war two it has many fronts and many combatants.(talk) 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have put up a {{contradiction}} tag. This is not what the introduction states, the introduction clearly states that the article is about an American campaign and not about the global problem, yet the body of the article goes on about the global problem.--Sir Anon (talk) 20:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Then just rewrite the introduction. Again this may have started as an American campaign but has since become international. Again I am drawing parallel to WWII, it started of first as only Germany on one side and Poland on the other but became international later on.(talk) 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the introduction needs to be rewritten, I think it is the rest of the article that's the problem, and I will re-write neither of them. But as it stands the article contradicts itself and will remain tagged as so until it is corrected one way or another. On a separate issue of the infobox that you keep on reverting without discussion, please stop, I did not remove it on my own innitiative or without discussion, I can name a handful of editors who have agreed to remove the infobox and none who have defended it. If you want to put it back please discuss it here first.--Sir Anon (talk) 01:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Listen, obviously you have not reserched this conflict enough, I have been studying it for the last 6 years. The article and the infobox have been the way they were for the last two years. And nobody except for you Sir Anon and Ajkgordon complained. The list of combatants is there because AGAIN LISTEN UP AMERICA IS NOT THE ONLY COMBATANT. Since the very start other coutrys supported them. And later on in other conflicts the Americans gave, maybe not help in manpower but in military supplies and training like Lebanon, Somalia and Gaza. This has already been discussed months ago and the decision was for the list of combatants that was in the infobox. Half a dozen editors were involved in that discussion. Also like you said nobody defended the infobox before. That was because nobody saw your discussion. You should wait as long as it takes for people to be involved in the discussion. Do not whatch at this conflict as a one-sided conflict that is just an American one. Again learn more about it before you make desicions to edit this article.(talk) 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Then give citations! Verifiability not truth. If what you say is right, find some sources and use them to justify the statistics and list of combatants. This page is disputed, and unless you are acknowledging that I don't exist, that Victor falk does not exist, that Ajkgordon does not exist, that Bistromathic does not exist then the tag that there is a dispute stays up - there is a dispute and the article will be marked as such until it is resolved.

Since you prefer revert warring to discussion, and seem to have problems communicating without capitals or ad hominems, I will go right ahead and file a mediation request. Accept it or not, the tag stays up until we all agree that this article is the way it should be.--Sir Anon (talk) 05:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is OR - pure and simple. If you cannot provide a credible source for a list of combatants then it cannot be included whatever any consensus might say. AJKGORDON«» 08:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all I donn't know what ad homines means and donn't talk all high and mighty. And for God's sake what are you talking about it is common knowledge that the US is not the only one in the fight here, what are they taking on the whole terrorism world alone like Rambo. Since the very start the British, the Australian, the Polish and others have been in this fight. And there is no need for sources on this in the infobox because it is all explained in the lower parts of the article in the Iraq war section, the Waziristan war, the Somali war, the Afghan war, etc. Also the war is were al-Qaeda is OR their allies like the Taliban, Iraqi insurgency, the Islamists Somali Courts, etc. There is no need for this to be sourced in the infobox because this is already explained in the article.(talk) 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't wish to be condescending, TopGun, but your arguments would made better if you wrote in a calm methodical style without reverting to emotive and shrill language. Asserting all these things is not the same as proving through citation that these things are true.

Let's go over it again. Yes, the War on Terror does have lots of combatants in different theatres and parts of the world. But the War on Terror is not a defined military campaign say like the Iraq War. It is more a political campaign sponsored by the US government where different countries get involved depending on their ideologies and political support.

Take two examples of where it becomes difficult to define combatants in this US campaign.

• The UK, often quoted as being the US's staunchest supporter. Yet from within the highest levels of government, even the phrase "War on Terror is not acceptable. It's not seen as a formal war and therefore doesn't have a list of allies or enemies.
• France, often quoted as being one of the US's harshest critics. Very vocal in its opposition to the invasion of Iraq. Yet it has been involved in Afghanistan, swaps intelligence information with the US, and vocally supports any fight against terrorism.

What you would have to show to support having a list of combatants for this US campaign is a credible source that lists them. Not for the individual campaigns, some of which are well defined. But for the WoT specifically. Otherwise it's OR and subject to POV.

I hope that helps. AJKGORDON«» 16:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• I think people might be interested in reading what I wrote at Talk:Taliban_insurgency#Combatant_flags--victor falk (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok I give up, I wonn't fight with you over the combatant list BUT I will not give up on the casulties list. That should stick. We have already created a whole article on the casualties of the WoT on all fronts. (talk) 21 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, TopGun, can you explain to me how you create those casualty figures without indulging in original research? Are they sourced or are they added up? AJKGORDON«» 20:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't create those figures, Rangley did the estimate based on the Wikipedia article that IS sourced, check the article War on Terrorism casualties and it will be all there. All of the military and civilian casualties have been broken down between sides, countrys, military and civilian. And all ahve references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.170.203 (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll tentatively (very tentatively) concede that the casualty figures for this article are not OR. But it's pushing it. What you have done to add up all these figures is, of course, research. Question is, is it original? AJKGORDON«» 22:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Its important to note that the "War on Terror" as defined here is not a conflict or war, but rather a campaign, or a "super operation." I dont think that we need to find a source which explicitly states "these however many nations are contributing to the campaign;" if we can find a source which says "these operations are part of this campaign" and then other sources saying "these nations are a part of this operation," it would suffice without being original research. While it is true that nations such as Britain no longer refer to it as the War on Terror, this is a semantic issue - perhaps we should provide their new name for it (if they have provided one) as an alternative name for this campaign. And it is also true that France has been a key contributor to Afghanistan, while being highly critical of Iraq - but this doesnt make them not a contributor to the WoT, or preclude them from being included in a list of combatants. This is because despite their political opposition to part of the campaign, it did not lead them to withdraw from the campaign entirely. If this happened, perhaps removing them would be justified, but as for now it would not be.

Likewise, I dont think its original research to, after we have sources stating "this this and this" are operations within the campaign, to add up their casualty totals to get the full number. I agree that one source which spelled it all out would be much easier, but it isnt necessary if we have this other stuff, which I beleive we do have for quite a few of the operations. ~Rangeley (talk) 03:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't want to duplicate my posting in the section below which answers your post above, Rangeley. AJKGORDON«» 07:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed list of combatants

I have removed the list of combatants. TopGun, your edit remarks are telling:

• (diff) (hist) . . War on Terrorism‎; 18:41 . . (-69) . . Top Gun (Talk | contribs) (Removing the Netherlands and the Check republic, not that big of a number of soldiers participating in the war)

This is entirely arbitrary and subjective. This is the perfect example of why there shouldn't be a list. It is subject to your own OR and your own POV. Wikipedia is not in the business of defining what goes in any lists. We can only report verifiable information from reputable sources. AJKGORDON«» 17:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

You are sort of right here. If we have something trying to be a comprehensive list of all nations contributing, you cant just say "hmmm, this nation didnt do as much as this nation, so I will remove them from the list. Their contribution wasnt big enough to count." The criteria for including nations into a comprehensive list of contributors would be the following. 1. The nation is participating in an operation, 2. This operation is identified as a part of the WoT campaign. This is for a comprehensive list, mind you. For a list that appears in the infobox, you do inevitably have to whittle down the nations you show right there to the main contributors, while linking to a comprehensive list of all contributors elsewhere where space is not an issue. They did this to the World War One article, where they outsource the total list while keeping the major contributors in the infobox. Doing this here is perfectly fine, we would need to come to a consensus as to which nations constitute major contributors. In the past I recall it was contributing over 1,000 troops to an operation, or having an operation occur in the nation. This is an editorial decision which I am pretty sure falls within the realm of things we can do, so long as we use verifiable sources in establishing whether the nations pass or fail the criteria we set forward.

So to re-iterate, one cant take nations off a comprehensive list just because they didnt pass their "arbitrary" qualification, but when space is a concern in an infobox and you simply cannot display all involved parties, it is an accepted practice to set up criteria (which is yes, essentially arbitrary) to whittle this list down to the major ones. I still think the old criteria was pretty good, but if we want to come up with a new one thats fine with me. ~Rangeley (talk) 03:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds sensible, Rangeley. Although I'm suspicious that this would still break the OR policy. The problem, as I see it, is that the WoT is not a well defined military campaign with various countries declaring war on each other or even signing up to the campaign itself. It's more a political campaign of the US government explicitly - "bumper sticker" politics as many (including some in GB's admin) have called it. There are, of course, actual campaigns - either by individual countries or by collective bodies like the UN - that are well defined, have uncontested lists of combatants, and can be sourced in Wikipedia articles. I'm not sure, however, that the leap from listing combatants in those articles to adding them all up and sticking them in here isn't OR. Has the US government, the owner of the WoT, declared which of these campaigns are included in the WoT? I may be wrong but I don't think they have. Or, if they have, they probably won't include all the campaigns listed in this article! Wouldn't this problem vanish if the WoT wasn't treated as a traditional military campaign or war in this article, but instead more like a state of conflict like the Cold War? AJKGORDON«» 07:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem arises from conflating "War on Terror" the slogan with actual efforts to combat terrorism. ("Neither Global, nor a War, nor on Terrorism") I think you if consider a list of "combatants" for the War on Drugs or the War on Poverty, it's easy to see how little sense there is to a list of combatants here. Peter Grey (talk) 03:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Origins of War on Terrorism

The phrase "War on Terrorism" did not begin after 9/11. In 1998, after the African Embassy bombings, in an address from the White House, President Clinton said America needed to continue its "war on terrorism." Apartcents (talk) 22:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

War on Terrorism vs. (informal) "War on Terror"

The Category for this topic is currently named with the informal "War on Terror". It should be changed back to the formal name "War on Terrorism".

Most all US formal documents on this subject refer to "War on Terrorism".

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity/faq-what.html - FAQ - What is the War on Terrorism?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/100dayreport.html - The Global War on Terrorism - The First 100 Days

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nsct/2006/ - National Strategy for Combating Terrorism

http://www.whitehouse.gov/homeland/progress/ - Progress Report On the Global War on Terrorism.

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/cia-the-war-on-terrorism/index.html - CIA & The War on Terrorism

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/cia-the-war-on-terrorism/terrorism-faqs.html - Terrorism FAQs

To find official Whitehouse documents on the War on Terrorism , use the search:

google: site:whitehouse.gov "war on terrorism"

google: site:cia.gov "war on terrorism"

To find quotes and press releases by the current president and others, with references to the informal "War On Terror", use the search:

google: site:whitehouse.gov "war on terror"

google: site:cia.gov "war on terror"

The Wikipedia title and categories should use the formal name, Even if the current president often uses the informal name.

GodWasAnAlien 22:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... the article was moved to War on Terrorism on October 27 (UTC), without first establishing consensus on the talk page. This happened despite, and without apparent regard for, a previous consensus established one month before. Now, in September, there was a consensus to move the article to War on Terror, while there has been no consensus established to move the page to War on Terrorism.

I'm partly inclined to move the article back to War on Terror, and ask that those who prefer War on Terrorism go through the proper procedure of establishing consensus for the rename. Alternatively, we could just leave it where it is until someone complains that the previous consensus was disregarded by the October mover, and then maybe we'll have another move discussion.

At any rate, you requested on my talk page that I re-open the discussion, or alter it to a "no consensus" - that makes no sense. What happened happened. You're welcome to open a new move discussion, but the one in September ended with a consensus for the shorter title, per WP:COMMONNAME. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't see why the term used in US government documents should be the considered the correct standard. It should really be which term is used most widely/frequently, which I would personally suggest (in lieu of research) is War on Terror. Electric Farmer (talk) 01:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to support your alternative suggestion. Leave it where it is, and have another move discussion if there is a complaint.

I do have several more comments for this discussion.

The September consensus was based on comments on 5 logins/IPs. Two noted the results of a Google search. One had only heard the abbreviated phrase in the "real world". One supported GSAVE. And One mentioned that "War on Terror" ("so-called") is often referenced in ridicule of the US. I don't think there was consensus, and if there was, I think it was premature. The unspecified Google results are likely invalid, as I don't think they excluded wikipedia.(see below)

Official Name: http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/nationalsecurity/faq-what.html - FAQ - What is the War on Terrorism?

Common Name

From Wikipedia:Search_engine_test: "The Google test. Using Google's advanced search option, search for each conflicting name and confine the results to pages written in English; also exclude the word 'Wikipedia'"

2007-12-14 Google results:

"War on Terrorism" -wikipedia :: 6,870,000

"War on Terror" -wikipedia :: 1,040,000

Though even with some other result, there are a few other wikipedia conventions that should be noted:

• "On Wikipedia, neutrality trumps popularity".
• Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Prefer_spelled-out_phrases_to_abbreviations

(Examples: "X Windows" has 6 million google hits, and "X Window System" has 3 million, Wikipedia uses "X Window System", over the abbreviation. "Central Intelligence Agency" has 3 million hits, "CIA" has 14 million hits...)

• Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)#Do_not_overdo_it

"In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative."

I would argue that "War on Terror" is misleading and less neutral, as a war against Terror (extreme fear) is more ambiguous and more emotive than a war against Terrorism.

According to: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2213959,00.html, [UK counter-terrorism officials] say the term "war on terror" will no longer be heard from ministers. Instead, they will use less emotive language, emphasising the criminal nature of the plots and conspiracies.

• Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(precision)#Conflicts_over_precision

"A conflict over the precision of a word may arise. The best way to handle such conflicts is through authoritative dictionaries".

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O48-waronterrorism.html - A Dictionary of World History 2000, Oxford University Press 2000.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/te/terroris.html - Columbia Encylopedia.

Perhaps compare "Terror" and "Terrorism" in any dictionary...

GodWasAnAlien (talk) 18:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The article is where you want it to be now. It would have made sense to make a case for the name before moving it, but whatever. If someone wants to move it back to the short name, they're welcome to build a new consensus for it. I would remind everyone to please not just move pages where the naming is disputed in any way. It's very rude, and kind of a slap in the face of people who worked to build a previous consensus. The more respectful approach is to talk about it first. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not rename the main article, and was originally not aware of the name flip-flop (my fault). I was just surprised that the category seemed to have the shortened name, so started a discussion to have the category match the official name, like the article. As part of that, I was informed of the September name consensus. I thought there was some facts not involved in that discussion, so I wanted to re-open that discussion. It seems there is no formal process to do this currently (perhaps I misunderstood DRV). Opening a new consensus discussion to keep the name that it currently has, and has had for years made less sense to me. That is why I wanted to re-open the old discussion if possible. I was trying to get more information out there, to have a more informed discussion on this. Oh well. I will watch the page and try to be involved in any future discussions on the topic. thanks.GodWasAnAlien (talk) 22:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I realize you didn't move the page. I was speaking generally.

It's true that DRV is just for reviewing deletion decisions. As for moves, you really are welcome to open a discussion on any article's title at any time. I think you've stated the information you wanted to; it just turns out there's no particular way to make it "official", but that's okay. The process you're looking for is to just do what you're doing: state your argument here so people can see it. Good work. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Go up and read the now closed "Title" section. No consensus was ever established for the shortened name. I moved it back to the name that had consensus for years and which is more proper. Read Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 2#Category:War on Terror, there was an overwhelming concensus to rename the category "War on Terrorism" but the closing admin decided there was "no concensus". We need to be careful what we label as "the consensus". A few day's discussion with a few editors never merits a change in consensus, especially when the discussion shows "no consensus" (to many editors) to change the name of an article which has had a name that has had the consensus of different users for years. User:GTBacchus take your own advise (remembering what you did in September): "It's very rude, and kind of a slap in the face of people who worked to build a previous consensus." Thank you.--STX 22:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Take my own advice? I didn't move any page sans discussion; I closed a move request, using my best judgment to read what people seemed to want. I read the discussion as a consensus for the shorter name, and I'm not aware of any previous discussion that I discounted or ignored. You're welcome to disagree with my reading of the discussion. I do think that, before moving a page that's been moved in the past, it's a good idea to build something resembling a consensus for it. Just moving it without doing so is kind of like saying that earlier discussion never happened, or that the people involved don't deserve to have their stated views taken into consideration. If there was a previous discussion that was ignored when we went through with the move request above, then I apologize, but I didn't see it.

In the section above, "War on Terrorism", you stated that "War on Terrorism" is "more proper", one editor disagreed with you, and you replied to them, but I don't see a group of people arriving at a decision there. I'm not sure why you read the "Title" section above as a no consensus, but you didn't do anything like ask me why I closed it the way I did. I'm not married to either name, but I think it's cool to discuss more rather than less, and to try to build a clear consensus on the talk page before moving the article. It appears to me that someone disagreed with you, and you said "oh well" and moved the page anyway. Am I wrong? It's at your preferred title now, so I'm not sure why we're still talking about it.

I'm not wrong to ask that people use talk pages to establish consensus when there was an apparent previous agreement that they wish to go against. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I was just being BOLD in editing. When you take into account 5 years of consensus versus a discussion among a few editors a month before (which I interpreted as "no consensus") I'd have to side with the editors from the past 5 years. I didn't say "oh well" to the opposition, I gave a complex explanation citing the policies of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Do not overdo it and WP:NC(P). However, silence is the best consensus.--STX 23:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)