Talk:Faggot

Archives
2004-March 2007 April 2007-present

Using, "fag," to mean a cigarette

I've lived in England all my life and have only ever heard the word fag used to mean a cigarette. This is the case in both the north and South of England, to an extent that most English people would be confused to hear a person refered to as a fag (at least initially.) In recent years, its use in American films has allowed English people to understand the reference, but fag is always used to mean a cigarette and is inoffensive. In no way would the word be associated with homosexuality, even by a homophobic or homosexual English person. Ian Evans 16 January 2006

That may be the case in England, but, if you noticed, at the beginning of the article it says "In common American usage". This is an article about the American derrogatory term.

Yes, but I think Ian Evans was talking about the British Slang section of the article. I'm from Wales, and I've lived in England and Scotland too. Although I've never heard a Brit use the word to mean 'gay', I think most would understand it to have that meaning if the speaker had an American accent. Garik 18:39, 10 May 2006 (BST)

I couldn't disagree more with Ian Evans. I grew up in the SW of England where we frequently used the word as a derogatory insult (as well as its common slang term for cigarette). This was and still is the same in London where I live now.

Broadening of Meaning

Lately the younger generation seems to use fag/faggot as a general purpose insult with no set meaning and no care towards sexual orientation at all. How much of such a trend has to go on before it warrants a mention here? Howdoesthiswo 15:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. While straight people who use that word may feel like it is not offending anybody or targeting anybody in particular, that word plays a vital role in the enforcement of heteronormative gender roles in American public schools. In my opinion, while it is easy for straight people to believe that they are not hurting anybody in uttering things like "fag", it is the people to whom this word applies that offense in that word is obvious. Fokion 04:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether it hurts or not isn't the point. The point is that it is used that way, undeniably. A huge number of people, especially younger people, use "faggot" in the same way they use "loser." Many people who use that word, especially people without much experience with gay culture, think nothing of gays when they use it. While it shouldn't be a huge factor in the article, it should most definitely be discussed.--Josh 06:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Simply stating such would be original research, however, if you can find an authoritative source that confirms your understanding, you should cite it in the article. -Harmil 02:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

That's just tangential though, because there are so many things throughout wikipedia and even in this article that do not have citations. Take the sentence "'Fag' and 'Faggot' have historically been two of the most offensive terms that could be addressed to an American man or adolescent boy.", for instance. It seems as though this statement is "pending citation", but has been allowed in without it because no one has come forward who disagrees with it and challenges it. It is quite false to say that one must cite sources on wikipedia. If this were true, the encyclopedia would be much smaller from all the deletions. It is good that we do not delete material without citations that seems credible or widely held to be true, because if no one challenges it, it is like a work in progress, pending citation. And as this usage of fag is very widespread, I think all contributors will fall into two categories: those who are familiar with this usage and will allow a discussion of it pending citation, and those who are unfamiliar with it but do not necessarily believe it not to exist. Thus no one will come forward to challenge its accuracy until someone finds appropriate examples in mainstream communication, which, in any event, should not be hard to find. Of course, you may just reiterate the "policy", but it still seems that wikipedia's articles widely lack appropriately extensive support while nonetheless being pretty accurate, because people will cut out false stuff they "know" to be false and leave in stuff they have no first-hand knowledge of or know to be true. In fact, Wikipedia IS original research, or, rather, we cite our intellects when editing articles. Only obscure or controversial topics have a more urgent need for citation, because in the first case, few people will know anything about the topic, and in the second, different people will have different viewpoints. This usage of faggot is neither obscure nor controversial, and precedent suggests it be allowed in, unless someone believes it to be false152.163.100.8 00:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

faggots come from the english west midlands, a Black_Country(the part of the country where all the black smoke used to be) dish called "faggots and peas", pronounced faggytsunpays its like bits a meat n onions with like a skin, in a brown ball, served with gravy, I dunno how you make em you have to ask the people at the "black country living museum" to get the most authentic recipy. its usually served with gravy, the peas can be mushy. where I live on the south staffordshire black country border we tend to use other worlds like sheartlifta qaya, qayabugga, puffta,, wolly wufta, arse bandit, qayer ba*****, the other words are starting to apppear such as faggot buts thats only because of the jamaican immigrants and on the television, it may of been an old word preserved in american english that wants to reapear in the mother country, maybe americans have forgotten what faggots really are and what they tasted like after they lived in the new country for too long. I've seen faggot in hhhhholliwood movies most the time the people who say it have southern accents, I dont think it origonated from the northen states, or maybe its both, in some small area of ingland the word never completly died out, because where i live faggot for a gay person is quite common, i also happen to live in the place where faggots were first eaten.-paul — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.10 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Uses in Popular Culture

Please add the following: Daily Kos. "Democrats and the faggot problem.", "Who invited the little faggot?", and "When is a faggot just a bundle of sticks?" [[1]] [[2]]--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.222.5 (talk • contribs) .

Why don't you add it? garik 17:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Fagging

I have also heard "fag" use as a transitive verb in England. It means to wear out or tire. I think this is why public school boys were said to "fag" for the older boys when they ran errands. They would often serve them sexually. It was also used as a noun for such boys. I think it is commonly thought that a cigarette is a fag because it makes you short of breath to smoke them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.55.201 (talk • contribs) 10:02 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes but its likely the uses of 'faggot' and 'fag' are connected (it also makes sense that cigarettes are called fags on that ground) Like the article points out the words have a number of uses and have a number of ways they are also used to be derogatory. But something I think people might be missing is its likely that there is no completely direct connection to homosexuality; that it was sort of used at different times as more general term and form of derision, and only became narrowed down to homosexuality later when the more general language went out of fashion. Or in a alternatively but in a similar sense there were just a collection of uses that owed to many different derivations into derogatory uses because of the similarity. (words like 'dog' are used in different types of ways for derision)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianshapiro (talk • contribs)

Brian - no; OED sees no connection between faggot (from French) & fag (origin unclear, perhaps from flag in the sense of getting tired, around which most of its many meanings cluster. The cigarette meaning comes from fag-end (see below), coming to mean the whole cigarette. first citation 1888, when they were still supposed to improve breathing etc. Johnbod 02:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

fag-end, faggot-end, faggot-girl, & mutton

I have deleted the following:

• It is also possible that the meaning derives from the use of the word as a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because of their association with the gutter, where "faggot-ends" (or fag-ends) of meat were thrown by butchers.[3]

(and the ref, which I'll add below)

- because it is not supported by the OED reference given, and the OED has no mention of "faggot-end" at all; it is "fag-end", still in common use in the UK,OED 2: "the last part or portion of anything", deriving from OED 1:"the last part of a piece of cloth". Nor is "faggot-girl", supposed C19 British, in the OED. Reference? Where the butchers throwing meat into the street come from who knows. The mutton quote comes from 1613; the prostitutes supposedly from the late C19 (see below). This non-association seems to have survived any number of edits on this article, but its time has come.

This is a fairly ancient version of the section (lost date,sorry): " Prostitution + "Faggot" - It is more likely this use of faggot was originally a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because they were associated with "the gutter", where "faggot-ends" of meat were thrown by butchers. The term "faggot girls" for prostitutes is attested from the late 19th century. Often perceived still as gender traitors, homosexual men are still often spoken of as "girls," and there were probably a number of male prostitutes at the same time referred to as "faggot boys". In either case, it would be a short leap from "faggot girl" meaning "prostitute" to "faggot" meaning "homosexual male"—probably starting with male prostitutes who tend to serve primarily or exclusively male customers." Johnbod 01:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

lost the reference of course - but it will be in the history Johnbod 01:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

all this was in the "etymology" section of course Johnbod 01:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ann Coulter

This article is incredibly biased towards Miss Coulter. It doesn't include her response to the incidents nor the context in which the word was used.

Usage in popular culture

Some concerns were tangentially brought up about the "Usage in popular culture" section, above. While those concerns were not entirely accurate (it is in fact, one of the most heavily cited sections in the article), there are some problems with it. For starters, the whole section is mostly a list of events. The relative importance of these events is never established, and no sense of the broader issues is developed. I'm sure that someone has written a book that brings these concepts together in a way that we could draw on to discuss the evolution of the treatment of the word "faggot" in popular culture. Does anyone have any thoughts on how this section could be improved? -Harmil 18:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it could and should simply be deleted. I don't much care for sections that basically boil down to "All the times that I can think of that someone with a modicum of celebrity said this word." It's never going to be comprehensive and it's generally more to do with the person who said it than the word itself, particularly in cases such as Ann Coulter. Grace Note 06:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. High-profile uses can illuminate the subject and although we should avoid an endless list of here 's another person who used the term we can find ways of highlighting some of the more notable incidents. Benjiboi 02:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Recent origins edit

Recent edits to the origins of the term have attempted to simply remove the phrase:

"It is often claimed that the derivation is associated directly with faggot meaning "bundle of sticks for burning", since homosexuals were supposedly burnt at the stake in medieval England."

While I agree that the statement needs to be sourced or otherwise dealt with, simply removing it in the way that it was, leaves the next section without context. I've tried to edit it so that this is not as much of a problem, but the correct solution really is to get more, and more authoritative sources, not to chop up the article when the sources that we do have weakly support the initial premise (that this origin is often cited) and strongly support the subsequent premise (that this origin is incorrect). -Harmil 19:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It is utter bollocks though. Encyclopaedias do not necessarily need to traffic in tittletattle. Grace Note 06:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Now I know that this is not very well substantiated in Federici's book. However, the burning of Heretics and those called "Witches" in England certainly occurred, as well as in the colonies (and is extremely well documented). Witches and Heretics were both groups accused of (and in the case of Heretics definitely practicing) homosexuality. Now, Federici does mention this and backs it up with considerable sources. Therefore we can somewhat surmise that faggot is indeed a slang term used to describe, in the least, those who deviated from the sexual norms established by the dominate group in England during the 15th-18th centuries.

Additionally, the current statement,

"One historical meaning of the word faggot, "a bundle of sticks for burning", is not likely to have been a reference to homosexuals, since burning at the stake was never a punishment for homosexuality in England, making the connection of the two an urban legend."

does not consider Wales, Scotland, Ireland, or the English colonies.

"'Faggot' sometimes reminds us that homosexuals were at times the kindling for the stakes upon which the witches were burned."

~Federici, Silvia. Caliban and the Witch. Autonomedia: Brooklyn, 2004. Pg 197. —Preceding

Sorry, I posted this with out signing in. This is from burneatgodfeartv. If my post was supposed to be approved before it was posted, sorry, I don't know the etiquette for this article, and this is my first time posting. unsigned comment added by 24.61.64.99 (talk) 05:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Bassoon in norwegian

Could someone please ad to the article that the norwegian name for Bassoon, the musical instrument, is Fagott, pronounced just like the english insult. This is good to know, english people turn their heads when they hear it in norwegian sentences.

Afaik it's pretty similar in German and several other languages. I've played countless pieces of music where my part said Fag. 1/2 on every page except the first. Bassgoonist 02:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

So, straight folk are confusing gay folk for woodwind instruments? I mean, of course everyone confuses Truman Capote and TR Knight for bassoons, and we have all heard of the Great Clarinet Orgy of 1932, but is it notable in this article? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 04:09, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

What the fuck? Because English speakers before going to Norway always read up on all the instrument names in Norwegian so there can be no confusion. Arcayne, if this were a no-longer-used Norwegian word, I'd agree with you, but this seems important. I know, as a non-Norwegian speaker and European traveler whose first language is American English, that if I had gone to Norway and heard "Fagott" in a Norwegian sentence, I'd be very confused and interested. Furthermore, in the "kike" article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kike) its not only noted that in a foreign language the word means something else, it actually puts it at the top of the article. Why? Because its an offensive word with a non-offensive word spelled the same. This is a word spelled and PRONOUNCED similarly. Worth noting. End of story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.168.12 (talk) 10:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you might want to brush up on the humorous device called wit, my friend. I was making a joke because this is the English-language wiki, not the Norwegian language wiki. There is precisely zero verification that a word that sounds like the word 'faggot' actually occurs in Morwegian. And if it does, so what? Look at the name of the article: it says "Faggot (epithet)". Are you for even a moment suggesting that people in Norway angrily call each other bassoons after auto accidents? "Listen up, you stupid bassoon, we don't cotton to your type around these here parts" is not a likely statement occuring on a sunny Norway evening. Ever.

The Norwegian word for bassoon may or may not sound like faggot, but it isn't meant as a curse word/swear word/epithet, so it doesn't belong in this article. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

This would also be good to include in the disambiguous page if there is a reference. Benjiboi 02:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Be Sure to Update!

Be sure to update the infromation as it relates to Isaiah Washington's Larry King interview were he stated that his reference to T.R. Knight is incorrect, according to Washington his use of the word was directed at another co-star during a verbal argument where he used the word in sexually neutral manner...futhermore he denied that he had directed any slur's at co-stars nor was his behavior unproffesional prior to that. Also make sure to note for contexts sake that Washington was gaged by Disney not to talk plubicly about any of the rumors. Also note that Knight's outing himself has nothing to do with Washington, considering his interview with Larry King. Thank you --216.76.232.52 03:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Dubious

Not used in British English? I think it is... we really need a cite saying the term is uncommon in UK English.--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 17:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

another use in pop culture

It should also be noted that in the Mel Brooks film "Blazing Saddles" one of the characters uses the term "Kansas City Faggots" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aramaki (talk • contribs) 21:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)