Talk:Kaaba

"Millions at Masjid al Haram in Mecca"?

The caption under that image showing all the people around the Kaaba. Umm... That's not millions of people. And btw, the antique painting of Mohammed and the stone should STAY on the site. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 12:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Poll: Consensus check

Could everyone with an opinion on whether or not the 1315 Muhammad painting[1] should be included at the Kaaba article, please weigh in? I'd like to see one opinion per editor, stating where you currently stand on this issue. Thanks, --Elonka 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep or replace Replace the painting with a photograph of the Black Stone. We use the painting on other articles, it doesn't have to be on this article, and providing a photo of the Black Stone seems like a reasonable compromise. Alternatively, we could use the show/hide option. --Elonka 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Changing my opinion from "Replace" to "Keep or replace". I do not personally find this image offensive, I find it beautiful and respectful, and see it as showing Muhammad in a positive light as a peacemaker. But I do understand that some good faith Muslims are uncomfortable seeing any image of Muhammad, even if a positive one, and feel that it is blasphemous. However, per Wikipedia's policy on No censorship, the general consensus of Wikipedia editors is that images should be included if they are relevant to a particular article, even if some editors might find them objectionable on religious grounds. I support that policy. In regards to this particular image on this particular article though, I have to say that though I do support the use of this image on some other articles at Wikipedia, such as Black Stone and Depictions of Muhammad, that in the specific case of using it at the Kaaba article, I think that the image is of less relevance. We don't have to include it -- there are other images which would probably work better, such as an actual photograph of the Black Stone. This Kaaba article also has clear links to the Black Stone article, where the image is used. We're not trying to hide it, and it's not necessary to include the same image on every single article that it is related to. This is why I would support replacing the image here on the Kaaba article. However, having said that, I also have to state that I believe strongly in another Wikipedia policy, that of Consensus. And the consensus in this poll clearly appears to be that in respect to the Kaaba article, the image should be kept. I still have respect for the editors who disagree, but it is clear that we will never reach a unanimous decision on this one issue. As such, I am willing to change my opinion to at least a partial "keep", to show that I acknowledge the consensus and will support it. Perhaps in the future Consensus can change, but for now, I think it is best if we try to put this one issue to rest, at least for a few months, and move on to other debates. --Elonka 21:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Elonka, how can one "replace" one image with a totally different one? If we need a photograph of the black stone, then add one. However, as I've observed and suggested we fix, the article as it is says almost nothing about the Black Stone, devoting more space (for example) to the story depicted in the 1315 illustration. It is very strange to me that you'd not see fit to move text about the Black Stone, but seek to "replace" this illustration with a photograph from the Black Stone article (where both appear). How can a photograph of the modern (broken) Black Stone better depict the events described in the relevant section of the text?Proabivouac 21:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Its topical, noteable, tasteful and respectful. The issue of censoring one of the most noted images of the black stone based on Mohammed depictions has been hashed, rehashed and decided. I see no reason to backtrack on this issue. I do find that that using the show/hide option IS viable imo, with the default being show. This will allow those who find the the image taboo an easy way hide the image for themselves, without affected everyone else. Dman727 18:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Enough polling already. Keep. There are policies which address this situation quite clearly; these enjoy the overwhelming support of the WP community. Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not is the right place to propose exceptions.Proabivouac 21:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Due to the image's encyclopedic nature and the fact that policies do not allow for its removal based on its potential offensiveness.--Strothra 22:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: Elonka, please stop trying to stretch this affair longer and longer and giving it more attention that it deserves. As Proav said, enough polling. Valueable unique image, very relevant, no copyright problems, keep. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 23:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Replace: This image is irrelevant since it is offensive, blasphemous (to majority of its muslim viewers), provides no credible knowledege, is source of more confusion then knowledge and its source is highly questionable. In its place an image of actual black stone is more appropriate in context of the topic. Ghulam muhammad21 05:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Replace or Remove: Plz. remove the picture immediately as it is beyond doubt a highly offensive image, which explains very little about the article "Kaaba." The picture is only of one particular step in the many restorations of the Kaaba. The adamancy of some to retain this picture goes a long way in further aggravating the highly deteriorated relationship between Christianity and Islam. Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 05:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC).
  • What's this got to do with Christianity? I doubt most of the commentators here even go to church nevermind have a Christian faith?! Pbhj (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

*Replace: Because of few of wiki's editors personal egos, this issue has been dragged for so long. It deserves all the attention because of its importance to topic it is related to. In fact this sub-topic should be "Re-building / Renovation of Kaaba" with information about all such occurances which are well documented alongwith a picture depicting the evolution of this structure from Prophet Adam (Be Peace on Him) to modern times. There should be general emphasis on re-building rather then detailing any one particular time of history. Picture of black stone should remain where it is in the Black Stone article.--Tiere Rod 05:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• • User:Tiere Rod is an obvious sockpuppet of User:Ghulam muhammad21.[2][3][4]Proabivouac 06:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: Notable and historically relevant. --Wasell^(D) 05:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep The image is highly topical and relevant, and Wikipedia is not censored. -- Karl Meier 07:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Replace or Remove: When you do not give much information and offend many then it is time to compromise. In this case picture is not irreplaceable and just has some esthetic sense. Hence why to offend other when you can avoid? Article is not centered around that picture. Right? --- A. L. M. 09:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
  • ALM, have you actually examined this image?Proabivouac 11:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Replace or Remove: The picture is clearly highly controversial and leads to ascerbic arguments. The picture is not even relevant to the article as such. If any compromise is to be made, then maybe a show/hide option is reasonable. MP (talk) 11:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Mpatel, do you mean to say that the associated text isn't relevant to the article?Proabivouac 11:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

If by the associated text you mean A story found in Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah (as reconstructed and translated by Guillaume) shows Muhammad settling a quarrel between Meccan clans as to which clan should set the Black Stone cornerstone in place. His solution was to have all the clan elders raise the cornerstone on a cloak, and then Muhammad set the stone into its final place with his own hands., then I don't see what the problem is - if the text is there, there's no need for a controversial picture. The caption text for the picture can stay with a show/hide option; nothing wrong with that. MP (talk) 11:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

You've turned the standard for image inclusion on its head: usually we ask that what is depicted is a part of the text. Here you say that if it is, then the image is no longer needed. Hence any image anywhere is either 1) off-topic (unrelated to text) or 2) unneeded (as text already covers it).Proabivouac 11:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that I said controversial picture; not every picture in WP is controversial. Note that text has priority over any images, unless the images add more meaning understanding etc. to complement the text. MP (talk) 22:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - It is a picture of one of the most significant figures in history doing something that was important than, was important enough for Ibn Ishaq and Rashid al-Din to record it, and remains today a highly significant event in the history of the article's subject. Tom Harrison ^Talk 11:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

  This we called original research here. Why to give that reason using original research when you also support picture you know nothing about Image:Maome.jpg. Or do you have any source telling you what it depict? --- A. L. M. 13:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should also have a vote at Isra and Mi'raj, since you removed the picture there as well. We could vote on every article once a month, and then have or not have images that month depending on how the vote went. Or, it might be better to draw in the larger community and determine the wider consensus. Then maybe we could craft a policy reflecting that consensus that would apply to the whole project. Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not mind that picture sepcially because it face is veiled. However, I do not know why you have restored it when someone else has removed it? I just wish to support that poor fellow against you. Once again what you know about Image:Maome.jpg, what event it depicting? ---A. L. M. 13:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I at least appreciate your candor. But why are you asking about Maome.jpg? Nobody wants to include it here. Our article on Depictions of Muhammad says it is an "Illustration portraying Muhammad preaching to his early followers." The reference is to the French National Library, but my proficiency with French is limited. What is your point about Maome.jpg? Tom Harrison ^Talk 13:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

p.s. - as with the caption for the 1315 Kaaba image I'd fixed earlier, that article had it wrong: Muhammad is not with his early followers, but in the last years of his life, forbidding intercalation after the conquest of Mecca.Proabivouac 21:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

My point is that you do not need to present that original research about most significant event in Muhammad life that you have presented above few times. You can say that you support including images of Muhammad, even if you do not know anything about them at all. Because you (and others) have been supported including Maome.jpg (and many other such pictures), when you do not know anything about it (Other then that they are in abc library or abc book cover). Hence please be honest at least. --- A. L. M. 13:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A.L.M., do you mean to say I am less than honest? Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not know but you are supporting many images which are only notable because they are old and saved by some library. Otherwise, we do not know anything about those images. Anyway, I do not wish to spend any more time here. --- A. L. M. 15:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Tom et al. This is the worst kind of cynical, bad-faith forum-seeking behavior I have seen on WP yet. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 19:54, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, ever so reluctantly, only because there appears to be consensus for it. Personally, I believe it belongs in another article, and it's my firm conviction that these and similar pictures are simply not worth the trouble they inevitably cause. Utterly indiscreet. Sad but true: If we had a few more editors worthy of the name, I would change this vote. As it stands, the point to be made is that we have had this discussion. BYT 03:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

BYT has mentioned before that he did not find the image offensive. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per Tom. Arrow740 08:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - the only reason this discussion exists is because certain groups of people find the image blashpemous. Given that blasphemy isn't part of any WP policy, this is irrelevant. If this were any other image on any other article, there would be no debate. Oli Filth 20:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - no copyright infringement is evident, the image clearly adds to and illustrates the article content thereby improving it as a whole, and opposition based on personal belief is inappropriate in the context of this online collaborative project. Coldmachine^Talk 22:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesnt anyone (who supports this particular image) realize the significance of this issue. OPEN BLASPHEMY IS BEING DONE on the pretext of knowledge. where has all the sense gone. why is this picture being compared with other in-significant pictures. why just two ancient scholars being quoted in its support and a vast majority being negated. EITHER PEOPLE DELIBRATELY WANT TO COMMIT BLASPHEMY AND HURT THE MUSLIMS OR THEY WANT TO SPREAD BAD KNOWLEDGE AND IGNORANCE FURTHER DEFAMING ISLAM. scholars have been consulted. offendees have mentioned all possible rules and regulations regarding such depictions but it is falling on totally deaf ears.124.29.250.2 05:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC) please remove the painting supposedly of Prophet...its blasphemous

Rules and Regulations? The applicable and regulations that apply here are wikipedia rules and regs. Islamic policy simply does not apply to most of the world and certainly not wikipedia. The very presence of wikipedia and indeed the Internet offends the amish..however you do not find them attempting shutdown the Wikipedia. It is impractical and impossible for an encyclopedia to conform to all the worlds religions. Sincerly, I am sympathetic that the picture offends some. There are things in wikipedia that offend me as well such as Cleveland_steamer. However censorship is the enemy of knowledge and wikipedia is about knowledge. I suggest that you do as I do when it comes to articles that offend you - avoid them. Dman727 05:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Let me correct some misconceptions here. Islam encourages its followers to gain and share knowledge. There is an authentic quote from the Prophet Muhammad, who encouraged Muslims to gain knowledge even by going to China!! Wikipedia is definitely an effort in the right direction, but for some profanities here and there. So is the internet with a wealth of information (and filth). Its for the users to use the Internet constructively and in the right direction. Thanking You, Altruism^{To talk} 06:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

This image is the depiction of a minor event in the history of the Kaaba. It is nothing but prejudice to say that the image is irreplaceable. The insistence on retaining the image only smacks of gross distrust and misunderstanding of Islam. Thank You. --Altruism^{To talk} 06:03, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Wikipedia is not censored. Make sure you read this. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 13:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Matt's (familiar) mantra. Altruism, I agree with your points, but I believe the only way to edit for the long term is to attempt to build consensus and acknowledge when it exists. The key is to stick around, particularly on a page like this one, and encourage others with a functioning conscience to do the same. Consensus can change. BYT 13:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

You've said yourself before that you dont find the image offensive, yet you agree with Altruism? On top of that you just voted a Keep in this poll. Can you please clarify your Keep above by repeating that you dont find the image offensive? --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:05, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Remove: Remove the image. Only the non-Muslims and those who are using Wikipedia against Islam are in favor of keeping the Muhammad image. Muhammad Shoaib 13:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Please familiarise yourself with WP:CENSOR. If you have any questions related to this you might find it helpful to contact an administrator. Coldmachine^Talk 13:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, As much as I respect Elonka I disagree with her this time. I do not believe in censoring wikipedia. I've seen similar debates on censoring other articles and I put my foot down then and I have to put it down now. I know it’s a touchy subject but to be frank wikipedia is an encyclopaedia and this image is of encyclopaedic nature and it must stay.

However, I’m not against some kind of mechanism being put in place where users with strong Muslim beliefs can choose to block images and articles that they’ll find offensive. The problem is I’m no coding expert so I wouldn’t know where this is possible. Englishrose 23:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• It's simple: don't look at wikipedia, voila! Pbhj (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

'Remove: ' The highly offensive image adds very little value to the understanding of Kaaba. Remove it immediately. I am not Muslim but Im tired of blatant anti-Muslim activity on wikipedia 71.132.143.219 00:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

'Remove:' The image is unnecessary and is being used specifically to spite the followers of this religion. It should not be kept just so that people can argue semantics over wikipedia rules when the true objective is essentially a pissing contest of ideologies. Peter Deer 18:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. Thank you. Claiming that other editors are including this image to 'spite' followers of Islam may constitute a personal attack. Try to stay cool please. Coldmachine^Talk 17:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

'Remove' This image doesn't is not valuable to the understanding of Kaaba. It is is very offensive to the muslim religion.

I believe the picture is irrelevant to the topic in todays society child porn is seen as disgraceful but the defarmation of the prophet or the muslims views has the same weight as something that defimates the religion pls remove the picture or at least remove his face —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.227.74 (talk) 11:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

• 'Strong Remove'. This isn't being kept in to improve the article, it's being kept in to prove a point. I realize that there are a lot of people here who are offended by the nature of the image and want it removed because of their own personal philosophies, and while I do not personally approve of making such images, I recognize that this one was at least made respectfully. However, it does not add to the accuracy of the article or make it more informative in any way, and I see no good reason to keep it, and the only reason I see why people want to keep it is to spite the ones who want it removed because of their beliefs. Peter Deer (talk) 21:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

'Remove:' How is the image adding value to the content of the article? Even if few people think, there is no harm in keeping the photo, what is the harm in removing it? How is that changing the knowledge being shared through this article? There is nothing lost in removing the photo, but sure it will save the negativities developed in the muslim population worldwide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adil.zobair (talk • contribs) 17:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Kaaba in Pagan times(Re-Opened)

I've been talking with my history professor here at Colby College (http:/www.colby.edu). I don't have a source right now, but I have confidence that before the advent of Islam, the Kaaba was said to have housed over 300 different gods, of which Allah was only one. Does anyone have a source on this? If not, I will go and get it myself, later.--Zaorish 01:04, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

365 idols.

He destroyed all the idols in the Kaba, and gave a general amnesty to all his enemies in the town. [5]

http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=365+idols&btnG=Google-s%C3%B6kning&meta=

I don't want to raise any hackles, but I'm curious to know: are there any pre-Islamic sources that mention the Kaaba, since it's supposed to be such an old structure? I don't mean to insinuate that it is not pre-Islamic. I'm just wondering if there's anything like a Xenophon or a Herodotus for the region that mentions something like the Kaaba in the centuries before the advent of Islam.

I've re-opened this thread as the question the author asked remained unanswered. Fr.John Meyendorff in his paper "Byzantine Views of Islam" published by Dumbarton Oafa Papers vol 18 cites a number of Byzantine sources who indicate a pre-Islamic cult that has worshipped the stone.

- John the Damascine wrote of the pre-Islamic cult of the Aphrodite who called the goddess as Habar or Haber. In his works, St John Damascine wrote that the stone symbolized the head of the Goddess.

- Constantine VII wrote the following in De administrando imperio: "They worship the star of Aphrodite, whom they kall Koubar, and during their prayers they shout "Alla oua Kubar", meaning God and Aphrodite. They call God - Alla, they use oua to connect the words, and they call the star Koubar. Thus they say Alla oua Koubar.

- Nikita Byzantine in IX century also wrote of the "idol Houbar" that represented Aphrodite.

- John Meyendorff indicates that while st John Damascine was the earliest of the three who wrote of the stone, the author indicates that this was not a new idea to Byzantine thinkers.

It should be noted that St John Damascene is viewed as anti-islamic polemist by some muslim scholars. Phrek 14:27, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

None of these are pre-Islamic sources, and "Alla oua Kubar" is obviously a corruption of "Allahu Akbar", which has nothing to to with the Kaaba as such. Paul B 17:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed, early writing of Byzantine thinkers contains errors and assumptions. Meyendorff in particular indicates that this is because communication between Byzantine thinkers and early Muslims was mediated by Arian and other heterodox Christian communities that were not part of The Church, this has probably created a broken telephone effect. However Byzantine polemysts of different times are common in their idea that Kaaba is pagan and that Islam has taken from many pagan concepts. Common idea is that Muhammad has purged all other pagan communities and allowed only the worship of diety of the Moon. This may be found in sources i cited prevously as well as more modern polemic works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phrek (talk • contribs) 16:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There may be some useful information here, at the bible.ca website:[6] --Elonka 04:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture

A nice picutre of the mosque, one may put it into the article: http://www.burhaniya.org/_images/_jpg12/athar/kabba.jpg --Englishazadipedia 23:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a very nice picture, but in order to use images on Wikipedia, we need to be sure of licenses. We would need to know:

• Who owns the image
• When it was taken
• What license the owner will allow us to use the image under. For example, GFDL or CC-by-SA 3.0

The owner would also have to be willing to upload the image themselves, or send an email to someone, authorizing use of the picture. If you know who owns the image, I'd be happy to correspond with them to take care of the paperwork. But if this is just a random image on the web, I'm afraid we can't use it.  :/ --Elonka 23:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Image of Mohammed

Why does it show a picture with the image of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? It is forbidden in Islam to have any images of the prophet. What is the point of it being placed? It is only causing arguments and anger. There is not positive side to having the photo, only negativity from it. It should be removed immediately as to respect the prophet, Islam and Muslims. Also, no one knows what the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or any prophet (ie: Jesus (PBUH), Moses (PBUH), Abraham (PBUH), Noah (PBUH, Isaach (PHUH, Ismail (PBUH), etc. etc.) before him looks like, period.67.38.8.95 05:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

This has already been debated to death. Please read the rest of this talk page, and the archives. Oli Filth^(talk) 11:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has given his/her comments very freely. The supporters want this image because they say wiki is not censored. In fact this image has nothing to do with censorship. It is about wrong , inconsistant and fabricated information about a topic. It is about compliance with wiki's policy itself i.e. spreading factual information. Here facts are being hidden, a wrong and totally out of context picture being placed which alongwith many other things angering wiki's readers. so we all request the administrators to seriously consider the issue of removing this particular image from this page.124.29.250.2 10:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This issue has already been discussed. Please read the talk archives. --Strothra 12:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

you are right. this issue has been discussed but without any significant solution acceptable to everyone. That is why wiki's admin is being asked again to have a serious and un-biased look into this matter and find a solution acceptable to everyone.124.29.250.2 05:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the administrators are just going to uphold Wikipedia policy. If, however, you want to change policy, this is possible, as policy is decided by groups of established editors. If you would like to become an established editor, this is free to do, it just takes some time. Simply create an account, engage in some edits around Wikipedia, and show that you are interested in helping with the entire project. Then you will have a stronger voice in policy discussions. But so far it appears that the only thing you are using your account for, is to talk about the Kaaba. To change policy, you have to prove that you are willing to work on multiple articles. If you would like to do this, I am willing to help you. Just let me know.  :) --Elonka 05:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

ok fine. you let me know how to proceed.But you and the administrators have to accept the significance of this issue and give it serious thought.124.29.250.2 07:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC) image of muhmmad

well i understand that at the heading of this page the administrators have made a note talking about the basic policy of their site that it is uncensored .Now if you wish people to respect your policy and adhere to it then i presume you should also respect the basic fundamental principles of any religion that u publish an article about . If the basic principle forbids you from displaying any picture of the Prophet Mohammed ( pbuh) the u should at least respect it.59.94.187.63 19:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)faraz

Islam forbids Muslims from doing so. It does not forbid non-Muslims. Please don't try to impress your beliefs onto others. Oli Filth^(talk) 19:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Wiki policy does not require adherence to a religion. Wiki policy does forbid censorship however.Dman727 19:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we accept the fact that it offends you. However, your offense is not taken into consideration by Wiki policies. In fact, Wiki comes complete with a disclaimer to that effect. What you are asking us to do is hypocritical - ie to censor Wikipedia so that others will respect our policies of non-censorship. --Strothra 19:53, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

59.94.187.63 as you have already seen, no use arguing with these people who control wiki. what we all want is to stress the significance of this issue upon the administrators. Then and only then a change in attitude will occur and this offensive picture alongwith others will be removed. Many muslims from all over the world are already contributing wiki's source but it is highly surprising that their concerns and voices are left out on this issue.

Already people have made it clear that if Kaaba topic is to be presented, it should be authentic and well in compliance with the religion to which it is most significant. we are ready to help out but being stopped from editing this page. now an offer from administrators to become a regular contributer to have our voices heard over others. That is fine but what about many others who are already established contributers and find this picture offensive. why have their concerns been hidden or overlooked. 124.29.250.2 06:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Their concerns have not been "hidden or overlooked". Whether a particular image is retained in a particular article is a binary decision; either it's included, or it's not. In such cases (where the image is relevant), the consensus has generally always been that encyclopaedic value has more merit than censoring content to avoid offending the aniconistic sensibilities of a particular religion. Therefore, the decisions have generally always been to include such images. Obviously, this will leave some people who continue to be offended, but they are generally pointed at the Wikipedia content disclaimer. Oli Filth^(talk) 09:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Brother this picture is an artist impression of an event which happened many years before this picture was made. you will find many other pictures like these but does that make them all authentic. since this picture is attributed to University of edinburgh, they have flatly refused to accept that wiki has taken it from them. you might make 10 such images and claim that each one is authentic as taken from a reputed source but in this case the reputed source is also denying its release to wiki. Therefore this picture has been picked up from somewhere (like many others) and placed here as an open source of spreading ignorance. wiki is neither as reputed nor as authoritative than university of edinburgh or encyclopedia britanica. These two sources are very much controlled and reserved on this issue. why is wiki being so open about it. even editing has been blocked for this article showing discriminatory behaviour on part of administrators.124.29.224.136 04:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're claiming here; are you saying that the use of the image is a breach of copyright, or are you saying that the image isn't authentic? With more proof, either of these may be valid reasons for its removal.

As for the article being protected from anonymous editing, that (I imagine) is simply a reaction to the number of times the article has been vandalised in the past. Oli Filth^(talk) 10:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The copyright is questionable as already edinburagh university has confirmed (you can go on and confirm yourself by contacting them) that they are not the ones responsible for giving it to you but your site attributes it to their collection. Moreover this image is supposed to be from a collection of persian scripts made during the time of ottoman empire many (hundred) years after this event actually took place making it an artist impression of the event. However the same scripts (Al-Jamah At-Tawarikh) are present in topkapi museum turkey and this particular image is not present in them. so you all can see this picture is both in-authentic and a breach of copyright.124.29.224.136 04:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

As has been discussed before, the copyright is in no way questionable as the artwork is far too old (14th century) to have any legal standing copyright protection attributed to it. Further, no one has claimed that this image is an exact likeness of Muhammad or the event that occurred. However, it is of historical importance due to the artwork's antiquity and the rarity of depictions concerning the event and individuals in question. Moreover, just because a museum in Turkey does not include a piece of artwork, does not mean that it is inauthentic. It's laughable to expect the Turks to so publicly place a depiction of Muhammad on display. The government might claim to be secular, but the ulema still carries a great deal of weight among the Turkish Muslim people. --Strothra 04:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear you are openly contradicting the copyright issue. It is neither from university of edinburagh nor from Bibliotheque Nationale that is for sure. what is the real source of this image. someone must have picked it up from somewhere without properly scrutinising the facts regarding this image. we dont even know whether someone from wiki has made it him / her self. None of you has any real proof about its source. why the turkish manuscript was mentioned because it is open for everyone to see. No one from wiki who support having this image seems to go through any trouble to validate its source. This image and all other on "Depictions of Muhammad" page are claimed to be from 2 / 3 persian manuscripts. No one from your side has seen the real manuscript and even if someone did see it nobody is that well versed with persian to accurately translate it. So the likeness of such image (s) is that if it is present in the script (which is again doubtful) it might depict something else and has been wrongly interpreted. 124.29.224.136 (talk) 06:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you have contrary evidence that the picture is not from a digital repository at the University of Edinburgh, or the Bibliotheque Nationale? If so, present it. Either way, as Strothra says, the image is well outside the scope of copyright being 14th century. Also, I object to your implication that there are 'sides' to this issue; that borders on what some might consider a personal attack. I'm amazed this whole debate is still ongoing...the same points of view have been rehashed over and over again. With all due respect can't we move on to something productive, such as editing or creating new article content? Coldmachine^Talk 13:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

i can copy / paste the reply of university of edinburgh administrator regarding this issue. this picture is not outside the scope of copyright as its source is not what is mentioned on wiki. it has not been taken from university of edinburgh.questionable image sources are not included in wiki that is what the policy says all of you know it.

it would be so much better if we move on to editing this article with much better and authentic content.124.29.224.136 (talk) 04:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue with showing Muhammad's (PBUH) picture is not that of Copyright or Authenticity. In fact one must understand that it is Forbidden in Islam to show a person's picture, and call it Muhammad (Authentic or Not). You simply cannot personify him in any picture. This issue is so controversial that big encyclopedias and widely used information sources have restrained from using any picture to depict the events that took place. Therefore, before things come into wider notice, it would be wise to remove the picture. There have been chaos, property loss, processions, strikes etc in the past based on this issue, and I am sure nobody wants them repeated. Therefore, putting all copyright issues, and censorship issues beside, please remove the picture in the name of peace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.49.43.19 (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Nobody here is going to repeat to you what has been said before. Please read this and the archives of this talk page ([7], [8]). Wikipedia is not censored. The copyright issue has also been discussed. No one can claim copyright for this image. Its a historical image. Please read previous discussions on all this. --Matt57 ^{(talk•contribs)} 14:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Even if I accept that it is forbidden in Islam, this is not Islamic-Wikipedia. Perhaps YOU cannot personify the Prophet. Threats do not usually sway here, either... be they explicit or talking about 'chaos, property loss... based on this issue." Perhaps if you do not want to see the depiction you should retrain yourself, rather than try and restrain others. Epthorn (talk) 13:10, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The reason this issue is being dragged on is because of claims and counter claims by the supporters and those who are against its inclusion. why this discussion is counter productive towards wiki is simply because everyone is being personal, not taking into account the general view. Why Muslims dont want it included is obvious, it does not comply with the principles of their religion, about which this article describes one of the most sacred holy places related to that religion. why Non-Muslims (majority perhaps) want it included is also obvious, in their opinion it depicts a historically important event connected to Holy Kaaba itself. In reality to make this particular article better and wiki's content better and acceptable to most of viewrs, the issue should be authenticity of the content and the references related to that content. In this regard the best to decide are the administrators of wiki. so they are kindly requested to review this matter and decide on best course of action.Any extreme is bad for wiki's image.124.29.224.136 (talk) 06:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

1979 events

Missing from this page: The events of 1979 (Sunnite attacks). I believe this should be included here. 91.97.59.113 (talk) 07:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Boston Times

Maybe I'm way off here, but did the Boston Globe independently verify the claim that the Kaaba was a shrine for the Daughters of God (al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat) and Hubal. The Boston Globe reference just stood out as odd, as I believe the given claim has been known to historians. Perhaps the Boston Globe ref. should be substituted for some well-known historical references? Thanks. MP ^{(talk•contribs)} 21:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

lat, manat and uzza were simply idols used for worship during the pagan times. in this conext boston globe reference needs to be substitiuted.124.29.224.136 (talk) 05:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

A large building ?

The first paragraph states that the Kaaba is "a large cuboidal building". In what sense of the english-language word "large", in the context of buildings, can this structure be considered "large" ? Look at the photos ! While in no way diminishing the importance of this building, it is NOT large.Eregli bob (talk) 00:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Qibla

Hi,

could someone please clarify which direction exactly is referenced by Qibla? I noticed, esp. in southeast asia and Australia, but also in India, that the arrow indicating the direction of prayer simply points eastward (whereas in this case, the shortest path to Mecca would be facing west). So is it a general rule that people are supposed to pray towards the east (rather than towards Mecca itself), or is that just a cultural tradition?

Thanks,Duagloth (talk) 22:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

pre-Islamic history of the Ka'ba

I think that more could be added to the pre-Islamic history of the Ka'ba. The hatim is described briefly, but its pre-Islamic significance is not discussed. I propose that the following is added: All of this, unless mentioned otherwise, is from:U Rubin, "The Kacba. Aspects of its ritual functions and position in pre-Islamic and early Islamic times", Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 8 (1986), 97-131. According to the literature of Ibn Jurayj, the structure pre-dating the Ka'ba was a low-walled enclosure called an arish. It is described as such a rudimentary structure that “cattle could burst into” its precincts. This description recalls the animal-centred function of the hima, which, according to the encyclopedia of Islam, was a "forbidden" area reserved by a nomadic lord for his exclusive pasturing rights. When there was rain, water would flood down from higher ground of Safa and Mawra, two hills adjacent to the Ka'ba. A protective wall, called jidar, was located to this side of the Ka'ba, standing between it and the hills. The hijr, meaning "inviolable and sacrosanct," was on the same side, between the ka'ba and the jidar. Muslim tradition upholds that the location of the hijr had been that of Ishmael’s pen for his sheep. An interesting parallel: jidar means pen for sheep in ancient Hebrew. Indeed, Uri Rubin asserts that the hijr had a “profound ritual significance which is connected with sacrificial slaughter” and he suggests that animals kept in the hijr were consecrated as belonging to the idols. al hijr was also referred to as al-hatim which has the same sacred connotations. This name reinforces the ritualistic nature of the hijr area. 113 hatim means literally “a crush” or “crowding” and that refers to people crowding for “oaths of supplications.” The place where pre-islamic Arabs practiced the qasama which is a type of oath. 114. The hijr was also connected to the tossing or casting of objects, such as votive gifts: “these traditions apparently reflect a pre-Islamic idea concerning the functions of this area as the dwelling of the noble dead, in honor of whom, votive gifts were laid upon, or buried in, the ground.” 117 gifts also deposited inside the Ka’ba. The Quraysh decided to rebuild the Kaba because of continuing floods and the need for more more protection than just the jidar protective wall. (p99) Became a “permanent roofed structure” and different reports detail the acquisition of wood from a Byzantine merchant. (101) The ka'ba was reconstructed in a square shape because lack of funds prevented them including the semi-circular hijr as well. Paintings were on the inside of the Ka'ba in pre-Islamic times: the images included prophets, angels, trees, images of Jesus and Mary. 102 When Muhammad finally took control of Mecca, he ordered for all of the paintings to be wiped off except for the image of Jesus and Mary which he requested to remain. The architecture of the Ka'ba, according to GRD King, was of a technique that correlates with the Axumite practices of the time: P20 the Ka’ba, built with alternating masonry and wood courses; a technique that shows its contact with other lands especially Ethiopia, “To this extent, the Ka’ba of ca 608 AD was a building deriving in its construction from the mutually interpenetrated milieu of the Red Sea coastal lands.”

Any comments? I dont know what the reputation of U rubin's article is, since it was published quite a few years ago. also, he depends mostly on muslim sources -- I could clarify which muslim literary sources he takes each piece of information from.

Sincerely, sara (sswetzoff@gmail.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.21.34 (talk) 00:09, 2 May 2008 (UTC)