Talk:Artsakh (historical province)

Deletion

Please do not delete info without citing your reasons. I suspect the sock puppetry here. Grandmaster 08:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why Azeri name of the region was removed. Explanation is needed. And I agree that here can be another case of sock puppetry--Dacy69 19:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not to put the Georgian verions or transliteration of Artsakh then, or Japanese? What does Russia or Azerbaijan have to do with the name of Armenian or Albanian province? Why should we mention about these languages If you consider the terrotory of Artsakh once used to be a part of Russia or Azerbaijan then we have to admit that Persia will also claim its right to place the Persian name. As far as I remember neither Persia nor Russia or Azerbaijan ever used Artsakh or even Arsak to describe the region which has always been known for them as Karabakh. If you want to go through the history, then why don't you mention the name Oristena or Urtichene, Roman Byzentine versions etc etc. I will never believe Azeris ever used Arsak. It is Karabakh for them. --armenianNY 02:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Because Karabakh (Artsakh) is integral part of Azerbaijan according to U.N., U.S. State Department, PACE, CIS, and Council of Europe, etc. Every single country of the world recognizes is as a part of the Republic of Azerbaijan. So, the statement of the name in the state language is a must. After all, Wikipedia is encyclopedia of facts, not of illusions.Atabek 21:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So what? The word itself is Armenian and is used ONLY by Armenians.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Supposingly Nagorno Karabakh is a recognized part of Azerbaijan, so what, Artsakh is a historical part of Caucasian Albania or Armenia and its territory is not exactly what today's Nagorno karabakh is. Oristena and Utrichene included territories of todays Armenian Syunik, some part of Armenian Taush, Azeri Gyanja etc etc. When Caucasian Albania or Artsakh existed, there were no turkic speaking tribes in Caucasus since they came only in the 11th century. Therefore, it was impossible that any Azerbaijani would use the term Artsakh or Ersak,simply, because there were no Azerbaijanis there. There were Azari (not Azeri) speaking Persians in the nearby provinces, later arabs captured the territory in 7th century, and the muslim element started using the name Karabakh. Turkic tribes came later and took the term Karabakh from Persians and Arabs. We do not see any reason why should we mentioned the name of ancient province in the language that appeared centuries after that province ceased to exist. By the same way some people put the version of Battle of Sardarapat in French. Guys, this is the English Wikipedia blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. If everybody come and put the toponim or any georgraphical or historic event in his mother tongue the whole page would be taken just by names. Will it be appropriate if I edit in Gyanja page the name and put Armenian Gandzak because we call the city that way. Or if I go and edit the page of Stambul and put the Armenian verion K.Polis with armenian letters on the top? Or there are some Armenian sources calling Baku Bagu. Sould I mention it on the top? Or may be you want also to write in Erevan page that the Azeri name is Erivan? Where is this going?--armenianNY 21:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is about a historical province, not a political entity. Therefore, references to modern Azer. state and its state language are irrelevant. The term Artsakh has been used only by Armenians and has appeared almost exclusively in historical Armenian texts. Based on that, I agree – the Russian world "Арцах" can be removed. As to the Azerb. word Ercek or whatever, it is historically unprecedented and unreferenced, and is a modern fabrication evidently aimed at attributing Artsakh away from its Armenian origin. If participants want to use this term, they should find an NPOV third party source suggesting that Ercek has been in use as an authentic, historical term. Zurbagan 02:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

... continued: for instance - Constantinople. Should we include in an article about that city a Turkish version of this name simply because now it is part of Turkey? No - Constantinople is a Byzantine/Greek phenomenon, as Artsakh is an Armenian phenomenon. Zurbagan 03:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

...yeah, now about Ganca/Gianja (i.e. Armenian Gandzak). In the article about Ganca, the Armenian term Gandzak should be mentioned - in contrast to this specific case. This is because Gandzak is the original or at least the earliest recorded name for that settlement. Ganca is likely to be a phonetic distortion of the word Gandzak. Zurbagan 03:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"Gandzak" is not Armenian -- it is Iranic, Persian. Even the capital of Iran was Gandzak -- and that was way before Ganja was founded in 5th century AD. So sorry, but "Gandzak" is as Armenian as "Artsakh". --AdilBaguirov 08:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the claim that there’s a consensus among Armenian scholars that the region was populated by Armenians. First, not all Armenian scholars believe so. See the article by Ronald Suny:

The Caucasus region has long been the scene of very serious social, religious and ethnic conflicts. Back in the Middle Ages, before the Turkish people migrated here from central Asia, eastern Transcaucasia was known as Caucasian Albania. No relation to the Balkan Albanians, these were a Christianized people quite close to the Armenians. Once the Seljuk Turks began arriving in the 11th century, the Albanians in the mountainous area – Karabagh up to historic Armenia – remained largely Christian and eventually merged with the Armenians. The Albanians in the eastern plain leading down to the Caspian Sea mixed with the Turkish population and eventually became Muslims.

Ronald G. Suny: What Happened in Soviet Armenia? Middle East Report, No. 153, Islam and the State. (Jul. - Aug., 1988), pp. 37-40.

You can check it at JSTOR here: [1]

And second, it is irrelevant whether there’s consensus among Armenian scholars or not, we don’t base the article on the position of the Armenian side only. Grandmaster 11:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is pretty much accepted that in ancient times Armenians and Caucasian Albanians lived there. I don't see the relevence in adding what Armenian scholars think. Anatolmethanol 00:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Armenian and Azerbaijani scholars may have certain positions in this issue, but we need to report what generally accepted view is. Grandmaster 11:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think their view could be presented if we attribute their view to them. We could for exemple in this case write that several Azerbaijani scholars do not agree that Armenians ever lived there. Anatolmethanol 14:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

And that some Armenian scholars created "New Albania" to the South of Kura and added to it some lands from the other bank as well, pushing actual Albania to the Caspian sea shores. But this article is not about the polemics between Azerbaijani and Armenian scholars, it is about an ancient province. We can actually create an article about this dispute, but there's no need in mentioning it here. --Grandmaster 06:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

NK War template

Doesn't belong here. This article is about a historic province which has nothing to do with Nagorno Karabakh War. VartanM 16:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. --Grandmaster 18:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Britannica

Britannica says nothing like what Merjanov ascribed to it in his recent edit. The article about Azerbaijan written by Ronald Suny says that Albanians came under the cultural influence of Armenians in the 4th century. However the region was politically dominated by many powers, such as Romans, Persians, Arabs, etc. At the same time Albania was an independent state for long periods of time as well, and there was no such independent state as Armenia after the 4th century. Therefore such interpretations are not acceptable. Grandmaster (talk) 18:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote my statement Merjanov (talk) 00:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Still not accurate. Armenian cultural influence existed only in a certain period, not all the way through. There was also strong Parthian and Persian influence. Why do we need to mention influences in the very first line? Grandmaster (talk) 06:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

No "Albanian" culture existed or at least no (or very little) such thing survived after the Armenian dynasties from Artsakh and Utik took over Caucasian Albania. Everything known about Caucasian Albania is about the "Armenian" Albania called Aghvank. Caucasian Albania was "Albanian" as much as the German-ruled Holy Roman Empire was "Roman." Merjanov (talk) 14:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Not true. Albanians spoke their own language as late as the 10th century. See the following primary sources. Al-Muqaddasi wrote in 985:

В Армении говорят по-армянски, а в Арране по-аррански; когда они говорят по-персидски, то их можно понимать, а их персидский язык кое в чем напоминает хурасанский. [2]

In Armenia they speak Armenian, and in Arran Arranian; when they speak Persian, they could be understood, and their Persian somewhat resembles Khorasani.

Ibn-Hawqal wrote in 978:

Что касается до языка жителей Адербейджана и большинства жителей Армении, то это персидский и арабский, но мало кто говорит по-арабски, а, кроме того, говорящие по-персидски не понимают по-арабски. Чисто по-арабски говорят купцы, владельцы поместий, а для многих групп населения в окраинах Армении и прилежащих стран существуют другие языки, как армянский — для жителей Дабиля и области его, а жители Берда'а говорят по-аррански. [3]

As to the language of the people of Aderbeyjan and most of the people of Armenia, it is Persian and Arabic, but very few speak Arabic, besides, those who speak Persian do not understand Arabic. Fluent Arabic is spoken by merchants and landowners, and there are other languages for many population groups in the outskirts of Armenia and adjacent countries, such as Armenian for the people of Dabil and its area, and people of Berdaa speak Arranian.

Al-Istakhri wrote in 930:

Язык в Адербейджане, Армении и Арране персидский и арабский, исключая области города Дабиля: вокруг него говорят по-армянски: в стране Берда'а язык арранский. [4]

In Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic, except for the area around the city of Dabil: they speak Armenian around that city, and in the country of Barda people speak Arranian.

You can find the same info in a secondary source, the article about Arran by C. E. Bosworth in encyclopedia Iranica: [5] He writes:

Strabo 9.4, cites Theophanes of Mytilene that Albania had at least 26 different languages or dialects, and the distinctive Albanian speech persisted into early Islamic times, since Armenian and Islamic sources alike stigmatize the tongue as cacophonous and barbarous, with Estakhri, p. 192, Ebn Hawqal, p. 349, tr. Kramers-Wiet, p. 342, and Moqaddasi, p. 378, recording that al-Raniya was still spoken in the capital Barda’a or Bardaa in their time (4th/10th century).

So people of Albania/Arran spoke their own language until Turkic Oghuz tribes took over the region. Most of Albanians converted to Islam by that time and became Turkisized, and the Christian minority for the most part mixed with Armenians. But saying that no Albanian culture ever existed is wrong, Albanians had even their own script, which modern scholars unable to decipher. It is a lost civilization. Grandmaster (talk) 19:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

And the Oscar goes to.... VartanM (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That "... most of Albanians converted to Islam and became Turkisized, and the Christian minority for the most part mixed with Armenians" - it is just a hypothesis pertaining to the category of original research (OR). We don't have sources from the time confirming the conversions and assimilations. But it was Mesrob Mashtots, and not Meshadi Mamedov or Ziya Buniatov, who invented the "Albanian" alphabet, and it was Mesrob Mashtots who established the first Armenian school in Artsakh in the 5th century (source: National Geographic magazine, March 2004). Later, Stephanos Siunetsi, in the 7th century re-confirms that there was "Artsakhian" dialect of the Armenian language. Arstakh has always been a cradle of Armenian culture, and "Caucasian Albania" was, effectively, an Armenian state. All "Caucasian Albanians" have Armenian names (e.g. Vachagan, Tagui, which are in use by modern Armenians). The historian of "Caucasian Albania" was - coincidentally? - an Armenian, who wrote his text in Armenian. The ruling family of Arranshahiks was said to originate from Hayk, legendary ancestor of Armenians. "Caucasian Albania" was set up by the Armenian king Vagharshak. "Albanian" church was part of the Armenians church. There are 1000s of Armenians inscriptions in Artsakh (dating from the times when St. Mesrob taught at Amaras), and none in "Caucasian Albanian." Christianity was brought to "Albania" by an Armenian, St. Gregory. There was, perhaps, a non-Armenian minority, but we don't know. And, by the way, if you admit that "Albanians" became Armenians, you directly attests to Armenian influence in "Caucasian Albania." There are dozens of books and articles discussing these facts. Your conduct resembles trolling [6]. I saw this in the article "House of Hasan-Jalalyan." Merjanov (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not an original research. Even Armenian scholars admit that:

The Caucasus region has long been the scene of very serious social, religious and ethnic conflicts. Back in the Middle Ages, before the Turkish people migrated here from central Asia, eastern Transcaucasia was known as Caucasian Albania. No relation to the Balkan Albanians, these were a Christianized people quite close to the Armenians. Once the Seljuk Turks began arriving in the 11th century, the Albanians in the mountainous area – Karabagh up to historic Armenia – remained largely Christian and eventually merged with the Armenians. The Albanians in the eastern plain leading down to the Caspian Sea mixed with the Turkish population and eventually became Muslims.

Ronald G. Suny: What Happened in Soviet Armenia? Middle East Report, No. 153, Islam and the State. (Jul. - Aug., 1988), pp. 37-40.

You can check it at JSTOR here: [7]

And Albanian rulers were Parthian and Persian, and not Armenian. So were their names. Arsacids were Parthian, Mihranids were Persian. What was Armenian about them? Javanshir is certainly not an Armenian name, and it is popular with modern Azerbaijanis. The remnants of Christian Albanians in NK region became assimilated with Armenians somewhere after the 10th century (Suny believes that this happened after the 11 century, when Seljuks moved into the region), but there are still direct descendants of Albanians, i.e. Udis, who live in the village of Nij in Shirvan. This shows that Albanians were not Armenians. And keep it to the topic and refrain from making personal attacks. I'm citing sources for everything I say. It is good that you have such a good knowledge of wiki policies for a brand new user, but comments about Oscar better fit the description in wiki guidelines. Grandmaster (talk) 06:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Oscar was not my comment. Suny is not an expert in ancient history, and he later admitted he was wrong. He wrote a new account of Caucasian Albania in the Stone Garden Guide on Armenia and Karabagh. Don't avoid the question of why Mashtots established the Armenian school in Amaras. Vachagan abd Tagui are Armenian names, not Parthian. Yes, Albanians assimilated but not in the 10th century but in the 3rd century AD. "Albanian" is a political term, like "Bohemian," not an ethnic one. There has never been an "Albanian" ethnicity. Merjanov (talk) 14:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Important point here. Suny is not an anthropologist, and an ass like him does not understand that people cannot simply "merge" with other people in the absence of direct cultural influence and direct physical contact. That is why Azerbaijanis remained Turkic, despite their Muslim identity. They have not assimilated and became Arabs, have they? although Islam is much a culture-specific Arabic religion than Christianity. Armenians always lived in Artsakh, and they assimilated "Albanians" because they were a majority and your "Albanian" tribesmen were a minority. "Albanian" could not assimilate by simply becoming Armenian Christian. And why are we talking? you have already admitted that Armenians had a huge impact on "Albanians." Merjanov (talk) 14:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If Albanians assimilated in the 3rd century, why Arabic sources reported in the 10th century that the language of Arran (i.e. Albania) was Arranian (Albanian), and not Armenian? Any answer to that? As for Mashtots, there are English schools in Baku, does it mean that there are no Azerbaijani people in Baku? It was a foreign language school, because the same Armenian sources that provide information about the school say that Albanians spoke their own language, which according to them was "cacophonous and barbarous". So clearly Albanians were different people which survived to our days (udis). As for impact, Romans, Persians and Arabs also had a huge impact on Albanians, which you did not mention in the intro. Grandmaster (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

"Foreign language school"? Are you saying there were as many "Albanian" schools as there are Azerbaijani schools in Baku? any texts? or extensive inscriptions? "cacophonous and barbarous" was the language of the "Albanians" who lived outside of traditional Armenian lands of Artsakh and Utik (like the tribe of Gargareans, mentions of which disappear after the reign of king Vachagan). About the "Arranian" language: well, in Azerbaijan people speak Azerbaijani (not Turkish), and if you invited the same Arabic travelers to Azerbaijan today they would tell you that people in Azerbaijan speak Azerbaijani and people in Turkey speak Turkish. But Turkish and Azerbaijani are the same language, isn't it? So (most likely) was your "Arranian" - just another Armenian dialect (the one mentioned by Stepanos S. in the 7th century?) that was as different from the mainstream Armenian as Azerbaijani is different from Turkish. Or maybe, just to salvage your argument, we may assume that there were remnants of non-Armenian "Albanians" somehow surviving around the city of Barda. Have they left any trace of their civilization? No. Any books they wrote? No. Any churches with "Albanian" letter they built? No. The same Arabic dudes, traveling in South-Eastern Asia, were reporting that there saw people there with serpentine tails and wings. Shall we believe them too? You are sticking to your sole mention of obscure Arabic dudes, disregarding the overwhelming evidence which cries out from the every page of Movses' work. This is highly a selective, revisionist minority position which has been irreversibly discredited. Is this called a POV or what? A huge body of literature is against this stance. The idea that Udis have anything to do with "Albania" is a just a hypothesis, a wrong one I think. Merjanov (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Before we continue, I want to ask you a question. Do you have anything to do with banned users User:Verjakette and User:Robert599? According to this cu you are possibly the same person as Verjakette: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Verjakette. It is also of interest that you repeated word by word the same claims as were made by User:Jalaleddin, an established sock of Robert599, which I believe is the same as Verjakette. See here, about Armeno-Albanians, no one other than that user was making the same claims: [8] Please explain these coincidences. If you are a banned user, you need to contest your block and get a permission to edit Wikipedia. So please explain what's going on. Grandmaster (talk) 06:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I checked your edits with those of Jalaleddin, you are the same person making exactly the same claims. You say:

All "Caucasian Albanians" have Armenian names (e.g. Vachagan, Tagui, which are in use by modern Armenians).

Jalaleddin says:

Plus, the first names of “Caucasian Albanians” were Armenian too: Tagui, Vachagan, Marut, etc. All these and other names are in use by modern Armenians; to say more, modern Armenian widely use the name “Aghvan” as a male first name.

You say:

Arstakh has always been a cradle of Armenian culture, and "Caucasian Albania" was, effectively, an Armenian state.

Jalaleddin says:

After 387 AD “Caucasian Albania” was an Armenian land and an Armenian state for all means and purposes. That Armenian country stretched from Lake Sevan to the Caspian Sea. [9]

You say:

The ruling family of Arranshahiks was said to originate from Hayk, legendary ancestor of Armenians. "Caucasian Albania" was set up by the Armenian king Vagharshak.

Jalaleddin:

The kingdom was established by the Armenian king Vagharshak.

You say:

Later, Stephanos Siunetsi, in the 7th century re-confirms that there was "Artsakhian" dialect of the Armenian language.

Same source can be found in Jalaleddin's edit: [10]

I heard all of your arguments before, and it is getting more and more interesting, because I have a reason to believe that you were in wiki for a long time. It is not just a coincidence, you are repeating word by word everything that Jalaleddin was claiming. Grandmaster (talk) 07:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Grandmaster, All the mentioned references are well-known facts, they are all over the Internet (especially in Armenian-written texts). I reviewed the Archives of the "Caucasian Albania," "Artsakh," "House of Hasan-Jalalyan" and many other articles and perhaps was influenced by some of the arguments made there, which you continues rejecting in a way that is against the Wiki rules. These arguments are valid irrespective of who is making them. However, everyone who reads today's Internet and the original text of Movses Kaghankatvatsi, and the works of R.Hewsen, Dowsett, Ulubabian, Buniatov and others would inevitably come to same conclusions. You should not assume bad faith, or suspect others to be socks, as you recently did in a checkuser case. Merjanov (talk) 13:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

CU seems to suggest that you are related to the banned user, and I have not seen anyone other than banned user Robert599 making the claims that Albania was an Armenian state. Hewsen certainly does not say so, nor do other third party sources. And the claim about the names of Tagui, Vachagan etc is exclusively yours and the banned user. The Armenian editors in Wikipedia also think that you are Verjakette, so it is not just me suspecting you. I think what you need to do is to provide your perspective here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/AdilBaguirov#Results. The administrators and editors providing evidence will be interested in your take of the situation. Grandmaster (talk) 13:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that it is wrong to repeat ideas that other people have expressed? Everyone who is serious about editing Caucasian Albania, or Artsakh, sooner or later will go to discussion pages and archives, and will bump to the same set of claims that you are apparently trying to suppress. Merjanov (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen that edits of different users matched word by word. And this is what happens here. And also, you should be aware that Armenian users User:VartanM and User:Fadix also think that you are a sock, but they believe that you are sockpuppet of User:AdilBaguirov. I saw your comment at cu, but your persona raised a lot of suspicions, and cu results allow to connect you with other people. So don't blame everything on my malicious intents, Armenian users also have their reasons to suspect you. Grandmaster (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Armenian influenced Caucasian Albania"? What an original research is that, with irrelevant reference provided. Over half of Armenian cuisine is Turkish, does it mean we should call Turkish-influenced Armenia? Atabek (talk) 18:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Your views are identical to those of Grandmaster, word by word. According to Grandmaster's logic, you are his sock. Merjanov (talk) 18:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

They are not, there are some minor variations :) Grandmaster (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed a reference to the website of some T. Saaryan. It is a self-published source and is not reliable in topics like this. Grandmaster (talk) 07:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ulubabyan

The map by Ulubabyan should be removed. He is known to be a revisionist author. His map clearly contradicts the third party sources such as Iranica. He shows the Mihranids domains to be a separate state from Albania, while it is very well known that this dynasty of Iranian origin actually ruled Albania. Ulubabyan was criticized by the Russian scholar Shnirelman for promoting the revisionist views and creating historical myths. Let's stick to third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 12:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ulubabyan is not a revisionist historian and the map shows not the domains of the Mihranids, but the region before the Mihranids should be in power there (thus before the periode of 630-705 [11]). Ulubabyan doesn't deny that since early 5th Artsakh, Utik and Caucasian Albania formed a marzpanate of Persia. However this map is not showing the incorporation of the region in the Persian Empire, but the landownership of the Arranshahiks, who prevailed in the counties of Artsakh and Utik previos to the Mihranids. The Arranshahiks or Yerranshahiks were also surnamed the Haykazuns (literally: "sons of Hayk"). Movses Kalankatvatsi calls them "the original Haykazunian house of Yerranahiks" (�զնախնական ազգն Հայկազնեանց՝ Եռանշահիկս�, b. 2, ch. 17). The Mihranids settled around 600 in Gardman (one of the provinces of Utik). There is also sayed, that the Arranshahiks decided to divide the reign with the newcomers, but the Mihranids killed many of them: Vardan "the Valiant" for example poisoned and beheaded 60 Arranshahiks. Only after these events Varaz Grigor became the first Mihranid who was called "prince of Aghuank" (b. 2, ch. 22). --Vacio (talk) 15:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Vacio is right here. First, the criticism leveled at a historian is not grounds for his removal. Second, you have still failed to recognize that the Arranshahiks (or Yerranshahiks) were a dyanstic ethnic group in Artsakh and Utik who were supposedly descendants of Hayk, and that that this was far different than the title of Arranshah. The Mihranids slaughtered many of the Yerranshahiks and it was only many years later that their descendants came back and let loosed their revenge against the Mihranids. Do we really have to go down this path again?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Аrranshah (i.e. shah of Arran) was the Persian title of the kings of Albania. It is a well known fact. Mihranids assumed that title from previous Arcasid dynasty when they became the rulers of Albania. And Hayk was not a real person, he was a myth, he could not have any descendants. Hewsen wrote that Haykazian is not a reference to the ethnicity, it just means that the dynasty was so old that people traced it to the legendary people. Please use third party authors, not known for their systematic bias in this issue. All the maps should come from reliable third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 06:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Where does it say that the sources must come from third-party sources?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

We have discussed that before. See Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Overview: Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This one is also of interest: Wikipedia:Independent sources. In any case, Ulubabyan is known to be a nationalist author, engaged in the fight over Nagorno-Karabakh, and he was criticized by the neutral authors for his bias and attempts to create an Armenian myth of the history of NK. I have maps of the region made by Azerbaijani historians, do you mind if I include them into this article? It works both ways, but if you really want to create an objective article, it is better to refrain from using nationalist historians and stick to neutral sources, since the rules specifically require using third party ones. Grandmaster (talk) 05:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We have indeed. Again, I ask you, where does it say we must rely solely on third-party sources?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I just quoted you the rules. Do you mind if we include Farida Mamedova's maps as well? Grandmaster (talk) 05:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed you did, GM. But nowhere in your rules does it say that we cannot use Ulubabyan. If you get a chance to speak with Madam Mamedova, ask her please as to why she thinks Hasan-Jalal is an Albanian, why she thinks all the Christian monuments all the way to Nakhchivan were built by Albanians and not Armenians, why she mislead others in her translations of the Gandzasar inscriptions, etc. Let me know what she tells you.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

And why did Ulubabyan claim that Albanians never lived on the right bank of Kura, or that udis were ethnic Armenians? Once you get an answer, please let me know. Mamedova is as good as Ulubabyan. Grandmaster (talk) 07:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Many Armenian historians (Muradyan, Mnatsakanyan, Akopyan, Yuzbashyan, etc.) agree that the Udis lived on the right bank of the Kura (and they were probably of Albanian extraction). They were quickly assimilated, of course, with the Armenians and hence, "Armenianized", so Ulubabyan isn't necessarily wrong here. Mdm. Mamedova's arguments, on the other hand, are lightyears away from being taken seriously by the rest of the scholarly world.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Udis on the right bank were not assimilated until the Russian takeover of the region, and on the left bank they live even now. But Ulubabyan claimed that utis were originally Armenian people, not Armenized. That's total falsification and contradicts the facts known to everyone. How such a historian can be trusted? Grandmaster (talk) 04:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

And once again, read the WP:RS rule: Wikipedia articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources. It clearly says that we shoud use third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 05:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

At the time of Russian takeover of the region, only a few thousands Udis lived there. Ulubabyan thinks they must have been much more Udis in Ancient times there, especially in Utik, but a large part of them has been Armenized through Middle Ages. I think there is noting wrong here. And Grandmaster tries unjust to reproach Ulubabyan. --Vacio (talk) 04:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Hewsen criticizes Armenian historian Mnatsakanian for his manipulation with historical facts. Mnatsakanian claimed for example, that the ancient rulers of Siwnik were Armenian, referring to the same Haykid claims in the primary sources.

As for the Armenian origin of the House of Siwnik' asserted by Movses, this is highly dubious, and we have evidence of Siwnian separateness and ethnic particularlism as late as the sixth century A.D.

Actually, all Movses Xorenac'i asserts is that the House of Siwnik' was of Haykid origin which, as Toumanoff has shown (Studies, 108, 216, 218, 222, 469), should be taken as meaning only that it was of immemorial origin; i.e. that it had been sovereign in Siwnik for so long that no one remembered its origin.

Robert H. Hewsen, "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians," in Thomas J. Samuelian, ed., Classical Armenian Culture: Influences and Creativity. Pennsylvania: Scholars Press, 1982.

From now on, please quote third party sources to support your claims. You won't be happy if I start quoting Igrar Aliyev or other Azerbaijani scholars or use their maps in this article. Grandmaster (talk) 06:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Also note that according to Wikipedia rules the primary sources should be interpreted by the reliable secondary sources, so personal interpretations of Movses Kalankatvatsi or other ancient scholars are not acceptable. They must be interpreted by neutral and authoritative third party scholars. Grandmaster (talk) 06:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Re your statement: "Hayk, was not a real person" -- There will always be people who disagree with your POV that "Hayk wasn't real", and who hold the exact opposite POV, i.e. that he was real. Since it is unlikely ever to be satisfactorily proven either way whether Hayk was a real person, these are two contradictory POVs, and per neutrality rules, we cannot and do not assume either POV to be correct. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That's not "my POV", that's what the scholars say. This is from Robert Hewsen's work:

Hayk. The Armenians call themselves Hayk' (sing. Hay), and Hayk is regarded as the eponymous progenitor of their race. Originally a divine figure, under the influence of Christianity he was reduced to "one of the giants" and was made out to be a son of Thogarma. If, indeed, the Armenians were of Phrygian origin, and Til-garimmu, immediately to the west of later Armenia, was a Phrygian formation, then Hayk, son of Thogarma, might well have become a personification of the Armenians as offshoots of Til-garimmu.¹⁰ Beginning here Moses of Khoren appears to be summarizing, albeit in a highly garbled form, the history of ancient Urartu, the memory of which appears to have survived, however vaguely, in the Armenian historical tradition. His description of how the various sons and grandsons of Hayk expanded from their original homeland in Vayots Tzor and Hark', for example, is parallel to the actual conquest of the Armenian plateau by the Urartians moving out from their center around Lake Van, on the north shore of which lay Hark' and on the south shore Vayots Tzor. Hayk's son Armenak is said to have settled in the plain of Ararat; Armenak's elder grandson, Gegham, along Lake Gegham (now Lake Sevan) further east; Gegham's second son Sisak gave his name to Sisakan (Siwnik'), the region immediately south of the lake; finally, Gegham's son Aram is described as a great conqueror who subjected the entire Armenian plateau to his rule. This account, however streamlined, is a reasonably accurate description of the growth of Urartu as we know it, but it was reduced by the Armenian historical tradition to straightforward genealogical history.

10. Pseudo-Moses (1. 10) referred to Hayk as i mejskayic'n, 'one of the giants,' but, after demonstrating that several of the princely houses of Armenia were descended from him, felt obliged (111.65) to deny that the princes were descended from gods, implying that in pre-Christian times Hayk himself was considered a god. Other traces of his cult as a divinity survived among the Christian Armenians; not only does he appear to have been the subject of religious veneration but he was of astrological significance as well, for Hayk was the name given by the Armenians to the constellation Orion. See Toumanoff, Studies, p. 108n68.

Robert H. Hewsen. "The Primary History of Armenia": An Examination of the Validity of an

Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2. (1975), pp. 91-100.

Grandmaster (talk) 04:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This above passage does not negate the historical nature of Hayk and, as Hewsen notes above, and his people's history seems to coincide with that of Urartu's.

Grandmaster, would you finally stop scorning Armenian historians? This talk page is about Artsakh, not Ulubabian, Mnatsakanian or somebody else. If you have any objection agains a map or something discuss the map self not it's author. It's also not the matter wheither Hayk was a real person or not. If I am a Christian, I believe Christ is the son of God, if you saye He isn't that, you don't change the matter that I'm a Christian.

The epithet "Haykazun" was indeed given to dynasties, which lived since "immemorial" times in Armenia, but it concerned also their ethnicity. I can quote many Armenian chronicles to testify that, but here a fragment of Kalankatvatsi's "History" with the original text in Old Armenian (OTOA). Please note the two words, which are declensions of the same "Haykazun":

Kalankatvatsi, 3.23: With truly and trusty words we have learned, that the Haykazuns related themselves by marriage with the Mihrakan House and by this relationship they decided to reign together the state of the eastern edges � Aghuank. (...) Mihrian, a descendant of the Sasanian dynasty, came from Persia and established a feudality. Their names, from father to son, are: Mihr, Armael, Vard, Vardan the Valiant, who believed in Christ, but not the one who built the Castle of Gardman. His son � Vard. Vard became the father of Varaz Grigor � the first prince of Aghuank, who had four sons: Varaz Perozh, Jvanshir, Hezut Khosrov and Varazman. As from here, we will quote only the names of the first-bornes, which are known to the Armenians, leaving out the others. They are: Varaz Perozh, Varaz Trdat, Vardan, Nerseh Dzhndak [the Cruel], who could pluke the hairs of one�s head and make him bald, and the feats of sufferers were bound with iron chains. {Movses Kalankatvatsi, History of Aghvank, translation, foreword and notes by Varag Arrakelian. "Hayastan" publishing, Yerevan 1969, p. 265.}

OTAL: �Ստուգաբաութեամբ այսպես ծանեաք ընդ Հայկազանց արանց խնամաւորիլ Միհրական տոհմին, և պատուաստութեամբս այսուիկ առ ի զոյգ ունել զպետութիուն արևելեայց կողմանցս Աղուանից։ (...) Եւ Միհրեանն, որ ի Սասանեան տոհմէն էր եկեալ ի Պարսից, հաստատեցաւ ի նախարարութիւն. և անուանք նոցա որդի ի հօրէ առնլով՝ են այսօքիկ. Միրհ, Արմայէլ, Վարդ, քաջ Վարդան, որ հաւատացեալ ի Քրիստոս, (...)։ Սորա որդի Վարդ. Վարդ ծնանի զՎարազ Գրիգոր՝ զառաջին իշխանն Աղուանից, որ ծնավ Դ որդիս՝ զՎարազ Փերոժ, զՋուանշիր, զՅեզուտ Խոսրով և զՎարազման։ Ի սոցանէ զերէց որդւոյն շարեալ ըստ կարգի զանուանս բերցուք՝ յայտ առ Հայկազինսն. և այլքն կացցեն, որք են Վարազ Փերոժ, Վարազ Տրդատ, Վարդան, Ներսեհ Դժնդակ, որ եհան ճաղք գլխոյն մարդկան և հօտիքս արար. և ոտք տառապելոց պարաւանդեալ կապեցան ի շղթայս երկաթեղէնս։� {Movses Kalanatuatsi, History of Aghuank, critical text and introduction by Varag Arrakelian. "Matenadaran" Institute of old manuscripts. Armenian SSR Academy of Sciences Publishing, Yerevan 1983, p 338-339.}

File:Geom-0150bc-0600ad.jpg

Furthermore, Artsakh was part of Armenia from 189 BC, when the Kingdom of Armenia was proclaimed, till 387 (more than 500 years). And it was this period when the Haykazunian Arranshahik dynasty was established as a bransh if Sisakan House. According to Movses Khorenatsi, the borders of Armenia were formed along the Armenian speech:

Khorenatsi, 2.3: Bagrat (..) was appointed regent of the western edges, until those limits, where the Armenian speech ends, being in command of ten thousand troops.

Khorenatsi, 2.8: And in the eastern edges, along the boundaries of Armenian speech, he [the king of Armenia] established two regents with thousend troops from the Royal houses of Sisakean and Kadmean, whose names we gave in one of the previous chapters. Subsequently, he founded the regentship of the great, glorious and populous northeastern edge, along the big river called Kur, which cuts through the extensive plain, [appointing as regent] Arran, a distinguished man, the first one in all matters of wisdom and intelligence. But you must learn about this offshoot of Sisak, since we forgot to mention this great and distinguished lineage in the first book, who inherited the plain of Aghuank, including its inverted mountainous side, from the river Yeraskh to the fortress called Hnarakert. And because of his amiable disposition the land was named �Aghuank� for they called him �Aghu�. [12]

Thus Armenian sources corroborate the mentioning of Strabo, that everyone in Armenia spoke on language. Furthermore Strabo says about Albanians: They live between the Iberians and the Caspian Sea [13], not "they live between the Iberians and the river Araxes".

Now this is wat we call "generally accepted view" since authors as Svante Cornell confirm the same: According to the Greek Historian Strabo and Armenian chronicles, the population of present-day Azerbaijan was until the fifth century divided between a western third populated by Armenians who to their East had the Caucasian Albanians [14].

Other views have to been compared with historical sources and verified even if there are from a third-party author. The thesis of P. Hewsen as if the ancient habitant of Artsakh were not of Armenian orign is in contradiction with historical sources and the traditional view on the topic. Also it is not verified that Utians, Mycians, Caspians, Gargarians, Sakasenians, Gelians, Sodians, Lupenians, Balas[ak]anians, Parsians and Parrasians have lived in Artsakh. For example, acccording to Kalankatvatsi Gargars lived in the greater Caucasian mountains (1.27), the others are largely equal geographical names on the left bank of Kura. --Vacio (talk) 08:53, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

If we have two opinion, then we should reflect both, but not promote only one. And for that matter we should try to use third party sources.--Dacy69 (talk) 14:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It's obivous that Armenian sources are not neutral or reliable and thus not acceptable. Baku87 (talk) 15:37, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion Baku. Did you have any luck finding those MiGs coming from Gyumri buzzing around Georgia's airspace?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Baku87, Artsakh is a historic Armenian county and Armenians live here since "immemorial" times (to use a word of R. Hewsen). It's history is written by Armenian chronicles and historiographers. Do you mean that we shouldn't use them to?

As regards of the map: please bring up you objections about the map it self, not (only) the author. What do you exactly think is wrong in this map? When I mentioned in the aticle Karabakh that this region also includes Syunik, some Azeri Users argued that the Armenian sources (Ulubabian, Leo) I reffered to were not reliable, but after all I was right! --Vacio (talk) 04:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

And again about the Haykazuni's. Dowsett also identified Haykazuni's with ethnic Armenians: He translated that word "native Armenian":

After four years, in the year when New Year's Day coincided with Easter Day Abu Ali, the native Armenian (Haykazuni) prince of Albania was killed by his full brother Smbat (...) king of Armenia, son of Ashot Bagratuni (The History of the Caucasian Albanians. Translated by C. F. J. Dowsett. London: (London Oriental Series, Vol. 8). Pg 220.)

OTOA:Իսկ յետ Դ ամաց, յորում տարեմուտն ի սրբումն հանդիպիւր Պասեքին օր, սպանաւ Ապու Ալի Աղուանից իշխանն Հայկազունի յիւրմէ հարազատէն Սմբատայ (...) թագաւրոն Հայոց Սմբատ՝ որդի Աշոտ Բագրատունւոյ։ {Movses Kalanatuatsi, History of Aghuank, critical text and introduction by Varag Arrakelian. "Matenadaran" Institute of old manuscripts. Armenian SSR Academy of Sciences Publishing, Yerevan 1983, p 336.} --Vacio (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Armenians were not natives to Artsakh, they are migrants, according to most sources. For example, such notable scholars as Hewsen, Minorsky, Shnirelman and others say that the native population of Artsakh were Albanians, Armenians appeared there only in the 2nd century B.C.

The Armenians considerably curtailed the Albanian territories to the south of the Kur and Armenized them. Only after the division of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia in 387 did the provinces of Uti and Artsakh (lying south of the Kur) fall again to the lot of the Albanian ruler. The earlier capital of Albania seems to have lain north of this river, whereas the later capital Perozapat (Partav, Barda'a) was built by the Albanian Vach'e only under the Sasanian king P�roz (457-84).

V. Minorsky, A History of Sharvan and Darband in the 10th-11th centuries, Cambridge (Heffer and Sons), 1958

The previous ruling dynasty of Albania was not Armenian, they were Parthian, it is a well known fact, and they ruled the region for centuries, that's why some traced their origin to non-existing legendary figures. And Ulubabyan is not acceptable, as the rules require third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 05:22, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian scholar Shnirelman writes the same:

Иными словами, расселение армян по центральной части Армянского плато следует связывать с падением Ахеменидской монархии. Что же касается Сюника и Каспианы, то они, по свидетельству Страбона, попали под власть армянского царя Арташеса только в первой половине II в. до н.э. А до этого земли Куро-Аракского междуречья принадлежали Мидии, и там жили самые разные группы населения, но армян среди них не было (Hewsen, 1982. Р. 31-33; Redgate, 1998. Р. 51, 63, 67).

Shnirelman, Viktor A. Memory Wars: Myths, Identity and Politics in Transcaucasia. Moscow: Academkniga, 2003 ISBN 5-9462-8118-6

What's up with the {{dubious}} tags? Hewsen says that there's a general consensus among the scholars that Armenians are not the native population of the region. I quoted other scholars who support what Hewsen says. --Grandmaster (talk) 05:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is the dispute about here? Is it about whether Ulubabyan is a neutral/third party source? I'm not saying he isn't a valid source, but if we're going to add something that is potentially controverisal, why add a map that is most likely disputed by Azerbaijani historians? I'd say there are two options: we either add a map that represents the Azeri POV to go alongside it, or we replace it with a more neutral one. Khoikhoi 05:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Khoikhoi, this will only happen when the West compares Halacoglu or Ataov to historians such as Vahagn Dadrian or Hovanissian. The dispute is not about this, as the map that Grandmaster wants to add below is not supported even by the scholars he himself enjoys to cite (e.g. Hewsen). Check the dates and locations on it. The locations of the cities of Artashat, Vagharshapat, and Yervandashat shown on that map are implausibly placed far to the west of where they really are.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Is the Ulubabyan map supported by any non-Armenian or third-party sources? Khoikhoi 18:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a map by F.Mamedova which I suggest we should use in this article along with Ulubabyan's map: [15] Grandmaster (talk) 05:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The claim of consensus is yours. Artsakh was described in Urartian sources without any Albanians. You claim Armenians came there only ca. 200 BC (which is very unlikelly as the Urartian army penetrated there much earlier). But there is no any record of any Albanian people there in 200 BC. The first time such people were described was by Strabo in the first century BC, while he included Artsakh as part of Armenia. And he used Albania as a geographical region and claimed there was twenty-six languages spoken there. This therefore negates your claim. Until you provide any record before 200 BC that supports your claim that Armenians replaced the native Albanians, this shall remain as OR. And I am sure that such a politically motivated work as Memory Wars is in fact very useful here.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you read what the leading experts on the topic say. It is not my OR, this is what the experts say. They say that the original population of the region were various Albanian tribes, and Armenians came there when the land was conquered by them in 2nd century B.C. I quoted Vladimir Minorsky above, and this is what Hewsen says (and he is not Azeri either), sorry for the long quote, but it is necessary:

Let us take as a starting point the question of the ethnic composition of the population of Arc�ax and Utik, the regions between the Arax and the Kur which were Armenian territory until 387 and which lie in Azerbaidzhan today. To Mnac'akanyan, this territory was originally Armenian; to Bunjatov, it was Albanian. What do we actually know of its history? Our earliest information is to be found in the History of Herodotus. According to this author, the proto-Armenians were migrants who entered the Armenian plateau from Phrygia in the West, i. e. from Anatolia. The general consensus today is that the Armenians, as we know them, represent a fusion between these incoming tribes-conventionally called "Armens" -- and the diverse natives of the plateau who had previously formed a part of the Urartian federation. For this fusion to have taken place, however, the so-called "Armens" would have had to have spread across the plateau from west to east and, though we know little of the circumstances attending this migration, we do catch glimpses of it taking place. Herodotus, writing ca. 450 B. C., makes it clear that in his time the Armenians inhabited only the western third of the plateau, and that to the east of them lay pre-Armenian peoples-Saspeirians and Alarodians, - who had previously formed components of the Urartian state. Xenophon, who travelled through Armenia in the winter of 401-400 B. C., confirms the data of Herodotus, for when he entered the territory of the Phasians and Taokhians, in what was later called north-central Armenia, it is clear that he had left the Armenians behind.

After the fall of the Persian Empire to Alexander in 330 B. C., the Orontids, who had been the Achaemenian governors of Armenia, were allowed to keep control of their province, but, by the time they assumed the royal title in ca. 190 B. C., we find them residing at Armavir in the Ararat plain. Obviously, the fall of the Persian Empire had provided an opportunity for continued Armenian expansion towards the east, so that in the century between Xenophon's journey and the establishment of the Orontid monarchy, the Armenians, under Orontid leadership, must have secured control over the central Armenian plateau.

From Strabo we learn that under King Artashes (188-ca. 161 B. C.), the Armenians expanded in all directions at the expense of their neighbors. Specifically we are told that a t this time they acquired Caspiane and 'Phaunitis," the second of which can only be a copyist's error for Saunitis, i. e. the principality of Siwnik '.Thus, it was only under Artashes, in the second century B. C., that the Armenians conquered Siwnik' and Caspiane and, obviously, the lands of Arc'ax and Utik', which lay between them. These lands, we are told, were taken from the Medes. Mnac'akanyan's notion that these lands were already Armenian and were re-conquered by the Armenians at this time thus rests on no evidence at all and indeed contradicts what little we do know of Armenian expansion to the east. Since these eastern regions had formed part of the Persian province of Media before the time of Alexander, it seems likely that if they were seized by the Armenians from the Medes a century or so later, then they had probably remained a part of Media throughout that time. To attempt to demonstrate that these eastern territories were always Armenian by quoting Movses Xorenac'i, as Mnac'akanyan does, is hazardous in the extreme. Whoever the enigmatic Xorenac'i may have been, whenever he may have lived, and however valuable his compilation of antiquities may be as the received tradition of the Armenian people, it has been amply demonstrated that his historical knowledge is highly defective even for the most recent periods with which he deals, and that as a source for early Armenian history his book must be used only with the greatest care. The same is true for the other texts which Mnac'akanyan marshals to his cause; all are late and none of them can be used as sources for the extent of Armenian penetration to the east or the boundaries between Armenia and Albania prior to the time of Artashes, let alone the time of Alexander. As for the Armenian origin of the House of Siwnik' asserted by Movses, this is highly dubious, and we have evidence of Siwnian separateness and ethnic particularlism as late as the sixth century A.D.

What do we know of the native population of these regions - Arc'ax and Utik - prior to the Armenian conquest? Unfortunately, not very much. Greek, Roman, and Armenian authors together provide us with the names of several peoples living there, however - Utians, in Otene, Mycians, Caspians, Gargarians, Sakasenians, Gelians, Sodians, Lupenians, Balas[ak]anians, Parsians and Parrasians - and these names are sufficient to tell us that, whatever their origin, they were certainly not Armenian. Moreover, although certain Iranian peoples must have settled here during the long period of Persian and Median rule, most of the natives were not even Indo-Europeans.

Robert H. Hewsen, "Ethno-History and the Armenian Influence upon the Caucasian Albanians," in Thomas J. Samuelian, ed., Classical Armenian Culture: Influences and Creativity. Pennsylvania: Scholars Press, 1982.

As for Ulubabyan's map, it is not supported by any third party source. He is known to be a politically motivated historian and one of the leaders of the separatist movement in NK. If we use him, we should use Mamedova as well. Grandmaster (talk) 05:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok.....you do know that is what I am doing, right? You are changing the subject and quoting what I essentially wrote above (see last paragraph). We know nothing about the population there prior to 200 BC, while you claimed they were Albanian (see the last paragraph of the text you have quoted). There was no such people in Xerxes I's army, although they did recruit Armenians. You have no evidence that Artsakh was founded by Albanians when the first recorded existance of Artsakh as an entity never even mentioned any distinct people comming close to those Albanians. Strabo claims it was in Armenia and claims that only one language was spoken there, not twenty-six.

As for Mamedova, she is, quite frankly, a fraud. She claims a certain Jalalid dynasty existed even prior to Jalal's birth and claims it as ethnically Albanian when every scholar you quote has the date right as well as his ethnicity (Armenian). The accusations against Ulubabyan are on a different order. He is accused of making unsubstantiated claims which is much different than fraudulantly changing known individuals' ethnicities as well as changing known dates.

As a matter of fact, Ulubabyan's map is supported even by Hewsen, which is something I am sure you are certain of. The maps of the Artsakh Kingdom are available in Hewsen's work treating just that. This has been already discussed. Before continuing this argument check the date the map covers and you will see that you are writing about a different period.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How come that we know nothing of the population of the region before 200 B.C., when Hewsen writes that the original population was non-Armenian? Did you actually read the above quote? Before Armenians migrated to the region, it had certain population, and it was mostly non-Indo-European, as Hewsen says. Also note that Minorsky says almost the same, that Armenians conquered the land from Albanians. Check the last paragraph of the Hewsen's quote again. As for the map, if you have Hewsen's map, use it, Ulubabyan is not acceptable. He is known to be a nationalist author, distorting the history of the region. If you find him to be acceptable as a source, then I will feel free to use Mamedova's maps. Grandmaster (talk) 04:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I did, but it seem you have not read what I wrote. Hewsen claims they were not Armenian; he say nothing about Albanians (you are assuming). As for Minorsky, it is the opinion of one author, as there is no source of any Albanians nor Albania prior to Strabo. Hewsen says nothing about it. As for the map, you have provided no relevent material to reject Ulubabyan map beside that he is an Armenian. You changed the subject and wrote about a different period, when Hewsen's maps in his Kingdom of Artsakh (the texts were provided by Vartan, and he was discussing with you, so you can not claim you ignore that) are very much similar Ulubabyan's.

You already quoted from that work of Hewsen in the past, which means you did read it. Check the map on p. 62 with the title Siwnik' and Arc'ax until the ninth century. How is that much different than Ulubabyan's? You also have provided no reply in the past to the very relevant comment of this neutral user. Does Hewsen's map truly differ that much from Ulubabyan's? Mamedova's fraudulent maps are not supported outside of Azerbaijan. And Hewsen, in fact, calls Ulubabyan's Principality of Khachen (Yerevan, 1975) an "important work" and suggests that readers refer to it for "additional information" ("Kingdom of Ar'cax", p. 55). That's a pretty strong endorsement coming from a third-party source. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Marshall: Is the Ulubabyan map supported by any non-Armenian or third-party sources? Khoikhoi 05:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Marshall, Hewsen believes that Albanians were a federation of tribes, rather than a people. Therefore he does not mention Albanians in general as original inhabitants, but mentions separate Albanians tribes, such as utis, gargareans, and others. These were the original population of Artsakh and Utik, and therefore Hewsen says the same as another renowned scholar, V.Minorsky. And if Hewsen's map is no different from Ulubabyan, why you are not using it? Hewsen's map is actually completely different from Ulubabyan's map. Hewsen's map shows the boundaries of states before 387 A.D., Ulubabyan's map is very strange. The caption reads: The domains of the Haykazunian Arranshahik dynasty during 5-7 cc.: Artsakh (green), Utik (purple) and Kambisena (orange). Who were these "Haykazunian Arranshahik dynasty"? If these were the Parthian Arcasids, then they ruled the whole of Albania, and not just those 3 regions, and they ceased to exist in the 6th century A.D. (not the 7th) If these were Mihranids, then their state had different borders, read Minorsky's Caucasica IV, he is a top expert on that period of history. Once again, please use third party sources, as the rules require. Grandmaster (talk) 04:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, Armenians conquered Artsakh from Albanians or from the Medes? If you answer this, I will answer who the Arranshahiks were. --Vacio (talk) 05:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There are different opinions on this. Hewsen believes that Armenians conquered Artsakh from Medes, Minorsky thinks that they took it from Albania. Both are top experts. Grandmaster (talk) 04:58, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

So you have no answer? --Vacio (talk) 05:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I told you the answer. If the scholars have different opinions, how can I have a definite one? But they agree in one thing - these lands originally were not Armenian by population. Grandmaster (talk) 05:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Thus it is unknow where Artsakh belonged to before 189 BC, but it is unquestionable that is was originally not Armenian by population? --Vacio (talk) 05:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Besides Hewsen don't speaks about Armenian immigrants, that is your wording, Grandmaster. He says, the Armenian nation was formed as a fusion of some incoming tribes and the ones, who lived earlier in the Armenian Highland. Thus the latter would be called pre-Armenians. --Vacio (talk) 05:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is unquestionable that the lands were not Armenian by population. The scholars agree on that. The speakers of the Armenian language (which is one of Indo-European languages) came to the region and mixed with the original population, such as Urartians, who were speakers of Caucasian languages (same as most of Albanian tribes). After that they started expanding their domains, conquering the lands of their neighbors. That's how Armenians came to Artsakh. Of course, before they came there, someone had already inhabited those lands. These were various tribes, which formed the Albanian federation. Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

That defies logic, so the Albanians were not an ethnicity. The Urartians were multicultural also, and Armenians were one of the groups as stated in several references. Your assumptions are actually quite bizarre as all this runs against your own argument. Just throw whatever people you can find in the bunch as long as they are not Armenians. As a matter of fact, the only people who live in the area (Artsakh) now and who were living there prior are the Armenians. I have not the slightest idea of what you're trying to convey in the second part of your reply. Can you please demonstrate how both maps are that much different?

That map was used to show Artsakh the subject of this entry, the maps are very similar, and compare this to the later one represented by Hewsen on page 62. How are the names given for dynasties by the author anyway relevent when the date and the delimitations of Artsakh are similar to the one of the other authors and that is all that matters here? I'd advise that you not deviate the topic. There is no reason to draw a new map because it will be a near-replica of Ulubabyan's! This debate is so circular and a total waste of time. If you really want to waste your time, then go for it: change it with the near identical map of Artsakh drawn by Hewsen. It's mind-boggling as to how fanatically you are pursuing this one little change.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Marshall, for the millionth time, see the rules: Wikipedia articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources. Is Ulubabyan third party? No, therefore he is not Ok for use. End of story. As for the Armenians, see the quotes above. They moved to the lands, inhabited by autochthonous people, such as Urartians, Albanians, etc. That's not my POV, that's what the sources say. Grandmaster (talk) 05:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

GM, please learn to differentiate the meanings of should and must. If you still cannot jump over so simple a hurdle, then you really have no clue over what you're quoting. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Marshal, that's not a good argument. If we should do something, then we definitely must do it in a hotly disputed topic like this. We can pretend that we never heard of this rule in a non-controversial article, but an article like this one should be free of any ethnic POV, and we must apply higher standards to the quality of the sources used. Grandmaster (talk) 05:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

A map is not a source but rather an image or illustration. Furthermore the author of this map is not Ulubabyan, it is only made using a map of Ulubabyan, which included the Albanian marzpanate (i.e. Artsakh, Utuk and Albania). But I said this map is not showing the integration of the marzpanate in the Persian Empire, but the main cities and gavars (kantons) of Artsakh and Utik.

But now I see, Grandmaster is accusing Ulubabyan of historical bias, but he self tampers with a historical source (see here). Movses Kalankatvatsi clearly says, the Mihranids succeeded the Haykazunian Yerranshahiks, after killing almost everyone of them. Grandmaster replaced Haykazunian Arranshahiks with Arsacid dynasty, indicating that as a "mirror edit" (see here). He tries to disguise the fact that till the Mihranids, a Haykazunian dynasty existed in Artsakh and Utik. Probably this is the reason why he is dead set against a map which shows the area under the rule of these Arranshahiks. --Vacio (talk) 07:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

You can make a map using third party sources only, as the rules require. You keep on ignoring my reference to the rule that says the articles should use third party sources only. And second, the source clearly refers to Arranshahs as the rulers of Albania, and the dynasty preceding Mihranids were Arcasids. There was no other dynasty. So stop making original research and start using third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 10:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The Arranshahiks are suggested to be the rulers prior to the Mihranids according to Ulubabyan and Movses Kaghakatvatsi's work seems to confirm it. Some scholars such as C. Toumanoff think that the Arranshahiks were your Albanian Arsacids, although it's quite obvious that any Arsacid after the third century A.D. was definitely Armenian.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:15, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

There's no reason to believe that Arranshahs were anyone other than Arcasids. After all, Mihranids had to kill them to take over the country, and no other dynasty is registered between Arcasids and Mihranids. Both those dynasties were Iranian, it is a well documented fact. Therefore Vacio's edits that he tries to force into the article on Mihranids are clearly OR and POV. And I have no idea what Ulubabyan's map shows. By the time Mihranids came to power the territory of Albania/Arran reduced to the lands between Kura and Araks, as Shirvan was settled by Iranian colonists. However Ulubabyan's map for the 5th - 7th century A.D. shows Albania on the left bank, and then some Arranshah state on right. I have Minorsky's map for the 9th century, it shows something quite different to this map. Once again, let's use neutral sources, as the rules require. Grandmaster (talk) 05:05, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well if you keep blindly dismissing Ulubabyan as an "unreliable" source, of course there won't be any reason to believe so! (even Hewsen praises the Principality of Khachen as an "important work"). Keep in mind, the Arranshahiks did not officially adopt their title as a dynastic name until the 7th century but their family did predate the establishment of the Arsacids. Since the Arranshahiks were named after their eponymous founder, Arran, who according to Movses Khorenatsi was a descendant of Hayk, then it's only logical that they claimed Armenian lineage. Movses Kaghankatvatsi even refers to them as the "ancient Armenian line of Erranshahik" (2.17 in the Dowsett translation, p. 108). The dynasties may have had Iranian origins, just like the Artashesyan and Arshakuni kings of Armenia, but they eventually assimilated with the Armenian population, that includes the Mihranids. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

First, per rules, the map should be removed and replaced with the one from a reliable source. New caption is even worse, another OR by Vacio. Second, Hayk was not a real person, so Arran could not be his descendant and he was a legendary person too. Same Hewsen says that Haykid is only a reference to immemorial origin of the dynasty, i.e. that sine the dynasty ruled the country for centuries, no one remembered its origin and it was traced to legendary figures. So using a legend as an argument is "hazardous in extreme", as Hewsen says. Also, do you have any reliable source to support your claims that Arranshahs were not Arcasids? --Grandmaster (talk) 05:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Shapur I's two raids makes that Arsacid dynasty nothing more than a symbolic name. It was attached to Armenia under Rome (are you going to deny this too?) Paul Erdkamp writes that there is a paucity of sources and a new chaos. You claim that there is no reason to believe that Arranshahs were anyone else other than Arsasids, I hope you will remember this sort of argument and leave us to use it as much as we want. If the Sassanids were considering the Arshakuni (which were Arsacid by Grandmaster's logic) as Armenian nobles (when the Arshakuni dynasty was abolished in 428), didn't they abolish that one at about the same time in so-called Albania (it happened much earlier, when under Rome, Albania was a part of Armenia) to again replace it with other Armenian nobles? Please post Minorsky's map for the 9th century that you keep mentioning (which is of a completely different peroid.

I have two maps of Hewsen, one from the seventh century which places both as losses from Armenia, and another map from the Arab domination, which also extends to the eighth century where the losses were replaced as Armenia II and III. References to maps from the fourth century to late eighth, etc. (also those included in the Kingdom of Artsakh). These all corroborate Ulubabyan's map, by different chronology of the maps, we have a good picture of what happened in that region. On the other hand, your only argument now is a map by Minorsky which we haven't seen and which covers an entirely different period anyways.

GM, please don't fabricate more rules: First, per rules, the map should be removed and replaced with the one from a reliable source. According to which rules? A map is a visual representation, there is the copyright issue here, as long as we have a map which accurately represents the period and the delineations,it's OK to use it. If you really care about accuracy, then maybe you should start focusing on this obviously wrong map, prepared during the Soviet times and which is highly politically motivated, placing Albania in the wrong area. You know the delimitations are obviously wrong. I haven't seen you do anything about this one.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 19:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand, what was attached to Armenia under Rome? Arcasid dynasty of Albania? How a dynasty could be attached? Yes, Armenia conquered from Albanians (or Media, according to various sources) the regions of Artsakh and Utik. These regions had indigenous Albanian population. The map that you mentioned is for the 2nd century B.C., i.e. the period before Armenia conquered the region, and it comes from a neutral source, unlike the map based on Ulubabyan. I quoted many times the rule requiring the use of third party sources, you keep on ignoring it. Once again, Ulubabyan is not third party. If you have Hewsen's maps, use them. I cannot upload Minorsky's map due to copyright, it will be instantly deleted. As for Arcasid dynasty, if you belive that between them and Mihranids there was some Armenian dynasty, which used the Persian title of "kings of Albania" as a surname, maybe you can mention the names of the kings from that dynasty? We know the names of the kings of the first indigenous dynasty (Oroes, Zober), we know the names of 10 Arcasid kings, and we know all Mihranids. Can you name any "Arranshahik" kings? Grandmaster (talk) 06:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are we suddenly shifting our focus from Artsakh, the province, to Armenians were not the original inhabitants? This is tantamount to soapboxing. The map is obviously wrong, and if you are going to sustain such an obviously wrong map, you are dismissing yourself in this discussion. There were no Albanians or Albania before 200 BC, since this is a well-known fabrication dating back to the Soviet era. Neither Hewsen nor anyone worthy of being quoted will ever provide a map preceding 200 BC which would ever include an Albania. Artsakh was not taken from the Albanians, because there was no such people when Artsakh became part of Armenia. It is either Albanians or Media - you can't have it both ways and say, "anyone but not Armenians." Just above, with your discussions with Vacio, you even linked the Urartians with the Albanians. Even Cyril Toumanoff writes that "Albania appears to have been the youngest Caucasian polity, so that the process of its growth from tribe to nation remained within human memory." E. Bretschneider writes in a footnote for clarification in his Medieval Researches from Eastern Asiatic Sources that "It does not seem, however, that ancient (Caucasian) Albania included also the land between the Kur and the Araxes."

And your battle about Ulubabyan's map still fails to make sense; it's everyone understanding that your problem is with Arranshah as you don't want to associate anything or anyone with the Armenians, but this is what Hewsen is actually saying: you can not only quote or use sources when they please you: "That the so-called Christian or New Albanian culture, which flourished after the transfer of the capital from Kabala, north of the Kur, to Partav, south of the river, in the fifth century, A. D., was essentially Armenian is also beyond question..." From what I see on the date of the map, it say 5-7 century cc. Am I reading it wrong? So, again, what is your problem with this map representing Artsakh for a territory which from Hewsen's own words was culturally essentially Armenian? For how long are you going to keep this going? That aside, Artsakh is the name of the Armenian province, with a definite boundaries, you are essentially doing what you tried with Paytakaran and failed and recently to create a FORK with the same controversial wordings. Can we say we're done yet?--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Arranshahik is not a title as Arranshah. Arranshahik means prince from Arran's line. Khorenatsi and Kaghankavatsi state that traditionally from Arran decend the princely houses of Utik, Gardman and Tsawdek (i.e. Artsakh). And from Agathangelos one can prove that these houses were not the Albanian Arsacids:

Then the king [Tiridates], without delaying, with fear and great happiness cared about gathering of the main nakharars and regents of the country:

1. the Lord of Angegh House,
2. the Lord of Aghdznik, who is a great viceroy,
3. the Lord of Mardpetakan Dominion,
4. the Lord of the Crowning Knight�s Dominion,
5. the Lord of the Strategist�s Dominion: the Commander of Armenia,
6. Lord of Korduk,
7. the Lord of Tsopk,
8. the Lord of Gugark, an other appointed viceroy,
9. the Lord of Rshtunik,
10. the Lord of Mokk,
11. the Lord of Syunik,
12. the Lord of Tsawdek,
13. the Lord of Utik,
14. the Lord-Shahap of the kantons Zarevand and Her,
15. the Lord of Maghkhazate House,
16. the Lord of Artrunik.

These are select Lords [Ishkhan�s], regents, deputies, captains of thousands and captains of ten thousands of the country Armena, the House of Torgomah, who were convened by the King Trdat and sent to Capadocia, the city of Cesarea, which in Armenian is called Mazhak, so that they would convey Grigor and would exalt him to the High Priest of their country. Agathangelos, 795-796 [16]

The king of Albania then was Urnayr. --Vacio (talk) 13:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying now that "Arranshahiks" were not the reigning dynasty of Albania, but rather a collection of miscellaneous minor rulers of various provinces? Btw, your primary source does not say anywhere that any of these people were �Arranshahiks�. Grandmaster (talk) 14:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Population of ancient Artsakh

Strabo says nothing about population of Artsakh. And Iranica article is self-contradictory, it also says further on:

Armina under Darius and Xerxes had much narrower boundaries than the future Armenia of the Artaxiads and the Arsacids. The "Armenians" with the inhabitants of Paktyike (?) and other peoples of the northwest formed the 13th satrapy, whose tribute was fixed at 400 talents (Herodotus 3.93). The Armenians in the strict sense must then have lived in areas between Cappadocia, the Tigris, the Euphrates, and the lake of Van. They are clearly distinguished from the Alarodians (= Urartians) who occupied the future province of Ayrarat (= Urartu) on the Araxes and with the Saspires (further northeast) and the Matienians (further southeast) formed the 18th satrapy (ibid., 3.94, cf. 7.79). [17]

So it cannot be used to oppose the views of Hewsen, as it actually agrees with them. --Grandmaster (talk) 14:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)