Talk:Severus Snape

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Category:Fictional characters who can fly

I propose adding ol' Snivellus to this cat. We've all agreed that we shouldn't really discuss his ability to fly in the body of the article, as we don't know anything about it and such talk would amount to OR. But the fact remains that he does fly in DH, so the cat would be appropriate. For the record, Voldemort has been included in the cat for some time. Thoughts? faithless (^speak) 09:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Absent an expansion by JKR, I don't think we can add it just yet. It is unclear just how he achieves flight; if it is through the use of an item, for instance (say a broom), would he qualify for the category? Does Harry qualify because he can fly around in broom? (I'm asking) If Harry does, then sure, go ahead. But if not, since the scene is ambiguous enough not to include the fact right now in the article, I would say it is ambiguous enough not to include the category in the article at present. Magidin (talk) 15:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't care too much about a category, but categorizing would be more useful if we only consider distinctive abilities. It is also unclear which method is used when Snape flies, though one could say he can fly without the visible support of any physical equipment. I'm more on the side that the cat isn't needed. Anyway, I don't think a broom counts; if we define "fly" simply as the ability to "move through the air", then any non-fictional individual "can fly" with an airline ticket. :) - PeaceNT (talk) 17:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with PeaceNT, that only characters who can fly without a means of support should be listed. Magidin, while I certainly agree that the passage is ambiguous (enough so to preclude its discussion in the article proper), I don't think it's as ambiguous as you apparently do. I feel that it was quite clear that Snape was flying on his own, especially with Minerva's line about "his master teaching him a new trick" or whatever it was. I definitely see where you're coming from, though. faithless (^speak) 21:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I figured as much about the broom... As to the rest, if you look back (e.g., [1][2][3]), you will see that I agree with you on the obvious interpretation of the paragraph in the book, and the obvious reading of Minerva's line. In fact, I did not object to the line being in the article originally. But as a recent edit to include the information shows, there are some who interpret the passage differently; I disagree with that reading myself, but we then end up in the arena of interpretation and speculation. Magidin (talk) 21:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Magidin. That is all I have to say. BlackPearl14^{Pirate Lord-ess} 04:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

As I've stated above, when McGonagall says, "Unlike Dumbledore, he was still carrying a wand...and he seems to have learned a few tricks from his master," it is clear that Minerva assumes that the magic Snape did emulated his "Master" i.e. Lord Voldemort. An animagus spell is a not a "new trick" and nowhere in the series are we told that Voldemort was an Animagus. There also is no mention of a broom or any other unknown spells, thus the natural conclusion is that she is referring to the unique ability to fly. I don't see any other interpretation other than Snape can fly. Bnmc 07 (talk) 19:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

And as I've stated before, I for one agree with you. However, you will notice the key word: interpretation. This places such an assertion into the realm of textual interpretation and as such, original research. Moreover, it is also a fact that some people disagree with the reading (notice, by the by, Minerva does not call it a "new" trick). Thus, it falls squarely into interpretative reading absent a direct statement by Rowling. I'm sure this is what she intended myself, and if she ever says so directly, I'll be happy to reinstate the sentence. Until then, you'll need either a reliable source for the textual interpretation or to wait for such an event, alas. And if the assertion ought not be in the text for this reason, then the individual ought not to be in the category just yet for the same. Magidin (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

And as I've stated before, I for one agree with you. However, you will notice the key word: interpretation. This places such an assertion into the realm of textual interpretation and as such, original research. Moreover, it is also a fact that some people disagree with the reading (notice, by the by, Minerva does not call it a "new" trick). Thus, it falls squarely into interpretative reading absent a direct statement by Rowling.

I'm sorry, I know I'm beating this into the ground, but I can't help but feel the matter of what does and does need a literal statement "from the author" is even more subject to some personal bias here. Does every Potter character entry really need JKR to publicly state every aspect of the characters after the text already makes a clear statement? There are plenty of character traits listed throughout various literature entries that are quite frankly subjective, because fiction relies on 'interpretation'. But this is not a case "speculation", "personal interpretation" , poetic mystery or intentional narrative misdirection on part of the author. I also don't understand the need for JKR to state Snape's exact method, spell, or otherwise ( as some others have stated) that allowed him to fly. There is also no clear indication on what method Lord Voldemort used when he was flying-we don't know the spell or anything other than there was no broom- and it was simply stated as observed by Harry and taken for granted that Voldemort was capable because he was a very powerful wizard. So why is this accepted - yet the observation of Snape's flying is not? I understand that some users still debate the issue- but I'm sure if I picked any character's entry from Wikipedia I could find numerous "interpretations" that are more a matter of a reader's bias that a direct statement from the author. I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm just curious why it is that the minority of people debating the ability- against common sense reading of the text- are allowed to suppress the content of this character's page.Bnmc 07 (talk) 14:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC) (reposted because I forgot to log in.)

This particular item is not a character trait, but rather a specific ability that the character was (or was not) depicted as having; in my opinion, that places it in a separate category subject to different rules, just like action that occurs "on stage" as it were is treated differently than action that is implied to have occurred "off stage". The text does not, alas, "make a clear statement" in this matter. McGonagall implies something, but does not state it explicitly. Voldemort is explicitly stated as flying without a broom (we both actually see it described by the impersonal narrator, and this is explicitly affirmed by some characters later on); but Snape is neither shown or described as doing so, either by the narrator or by a character. All we have is McGonagall's implication, and the fact that Harry sees him flying away. As for "suppressing content", we are discussing a category, not content. While the page ought not to, at this point, in my opinion, state explicitly and categorically that Snape is shown as being capable to fly without support, the page could state that he is implied to have done so, if you so wish. But categorizing Snape as "character who can fly" makes a definitive assertion. I'm not saying JKR has to explain how he does it; it would be enough to say "yes, McGonagall meant that Snape flew away like Voldemort did" or some such. (Note that McGonagall was not in the aerial battle, so she is also not able to make direct comparisons). Magidin (talk) 14:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"All we have is McGonagall's implication, and the fact that Harry sees him flying away." This is puzzling to me. Magidin writes it himself. Harry sees Snape flying away. This is a fact, not an interpretation. Snape was "a huge, batlike shape flying though the darkness to the perimeter wall" (Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, by J. K. Rowling, Ch. 30, Scholastic ed., 2007, p. 599). Anything else would be interpretation/original research, inserting explanations absent from the text for why what Harry saw, what the narrator tells us he saw, was not what really happened. Do we have any sources suggesting Snape cannot fly, which would outweigh the statement in the book itself? All I have seen above are possible interpretations (Snape was an Animagus, Snape had a broom) which are not well-supported by the actual text of the books this entry is about. Ms arithmancer (talk) 17:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Harry sees him flying away. He is too far away, however, to see whether this is supported or unsupported flight. Harry sees many people flying away throughout the series, on brooms. The book simply does not state that Snape is flying unsupported, the way it does with Voldemort. And for the nth and final time, I agree that this is the most, if not only, reasonable interpretation. Compare the explicit statement regarding Voldemort with the oblique implication regarding Snape, since you are so keen in quoting the book at me. Since I do not, however, have a fetish for equine carcass mutilation, I will leave it at that. Magidin (talk) 18:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

" the page could state that he is implied to have done so, if you so wish." User:Magidin

I would accept this as an agreeable edit.Bnmc 07 (talk) 18:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I read it very clearly as animgai transformation into a bat. It never is definitive.JJJ999 (talk) 04:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you've said so before. A year ago. What has changed since then that you need to reiterate it? You're still not going to command sufficient consensus to get that strained interpretation into the article, I suspect. Magidin (talk) 04:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it pretty clear from the book that, he did fly unsupported, the comment "a few tricks from his master" can't be anything but a reference to Voldemort's ability to fly, he did not have a broom when he jumped, because McGonagall would say "he had a broom" not "he had a wand". I am also pretty sure JKR have talked about this, answered a question, something like "Snape is being described as 'bat-like' multiple times in the series, is he a animagus?" and she said No. — chandler — 06:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Great! If we can point to an actual quote from JKR putting this to rest, I for one will be glad. I'm getting a bit fed up with this coming up over and over again. Do you have a reference we can cite? Magidin (talk) 19:25, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Just adding to the consensus little guy.JJJ999 (talk) 08:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Repeating the same assertion, once again providing nothing but your own interpretation of the text (an interpretation that is at best far-fetched), does not add anything to the discussion, and certainly is not "adding to the consensus." Neither is the lame attempt at a put down. Magidin (talk) 14:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

It's relevant because my "assertion", which was argued at length last time this came up, is not visible here, and I like to make sure that people take that view into account, even though it's not visible in the new discussion on it. We can't always trust faithful fellows like you and faithless to use the old consensus. I am dubious Snape has enough power to fly given Voldemort being able to is seen as a freak one off, and the way I read it was he turned into a bat, because the idea of him flying without transforming or something was absurd.JJJ999 (talk) 00:25, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Funny you should suddenly bring up relevance, given that nothing was said about whether it was relevant or not; nothing but a Straw man. Funny too you should use scare quotes around assertion, given that the only thing you have provided is your unbending belief that your strained interpretation is accurate, as if this was some sort of reliable source; that's what makes it an assertion, no scare quotes involved. Funny, thirdly, that you fail to address how it is that you believe that simply repeating the same assertion "builds consensus". Providing your (unsupported) point of view over and over does not build consensus; quite the opposite: reiterating views without any reliable sources does not "build consensus", it blocks it. If you'd followed the discussion, you would see that in point of fact, it is because of assertions such as yours that no definitive statement about Snape is in the page regarding whether or not he can fly unsupported, and why the category was not added to the page. Your sense of what is absurd notwithstanding, that discussion occurred several months ago, even if you were not paying attention then. So, I wonder again: how is it that bringing it up again helps in any way whatsoever to improve the page right now? And, since I suffer from hay fever, perhaps you can keep the straw men at home this time? Magidin (talk) 01:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Given your whole post was irrelevant I see no need to reply to it. I have expressed my view of the text, and in the past explained why. My interpretation is as valid as yours, so it has as much value being noted here in forming consensus. If there is an interview to the contrary, I will reconsider my view. The only consensus it is hindering is the one you want, which I disagree with. If you were worth the effort I would make some hay related joke, but you're not.JJJ999 (talk) 02:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

You've been blocked before, and been warned for personal attacks on other editors and for behavior contrary to Wikipedia policies; interesting to see just how much you learned from the experience. Deleting the multiple warnings you have received in the past from your talk page does not erase them. Do tell me: what exactly is this mythical consensus that allegedly "I want"? Given that I was the one that argued that we could not place in the page the assertion that Snape was flying without support a la Voldemort (citing your interpretation as support for the proposition that the issue is unclear), what is it you think I want that you find so irrelevant and objectionable that you reply despite allegedly seeing no need to do so? At best, I expressed frustration that you felt the need to repeat your assertions while adding absolutely nothing new to a discussion that had ended moths ago, that you have yet to learn how to post your comments and insist on using asterisks rather than indentation, and that you continue to ignore wikipedia's civility policies with attempted put-downs. As for my being worth the effort or not, well, I'm sure you were not interested in the grapes anyway. Magidin (talk) 03:22, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Evanna Lynch Quote

I took out an addition [4] of two comments about Evanna Lynch (who plays Luna Lovegood) in the Loyalties section. The first is a somewhat muddled mis-report of what is stated in the interview referenced (an interview that occurred before the seventh book was out); the second part was about Lynch's opinion about having a particular scene not included in the fifth movie, which makes it a comment onf the film adaptation and irrelevant to this article and that section. The material was re-added. I've explained my reason for removing it in the first place in the Talk page of that editor, and now here. Lest we start an edit war, please see what you think. In any case, note that the correct url pointer for the reference should be [5] rather than what is given there. Magidin (talk) 20:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Personality

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In re this comment,

The adult Snape, on the other hand, is shown very self-assured and confident of his abilities to a degree that Rickman described as ”full of himself.”[44]

I'm having a hard time finding this "full of himself" quote from Alan Rickman at the source provided [44] [ Link http://whysnape.tripod.com/rickmanfrench.htm] Are we sure this is this a legitimate quote from Mr. Rickman?Bnmc 07 (talk) 02:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

You know, you just caught a big mistake here. Yes the quote was not source provided at link [44]. The links were misplaced. This particular quote was in link [43] [ Link http://whysnape.tripod.com/rickman.htm . I've fixed it now with the right reference and link. Thanks for pointing it out. September88 (talk) 19:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Temper Tantrums

I'm not sure enough to put this in myself, but I recall having discussions over Snape's "temper tantrums" (extreme, even apoplectic negative emotional storms) in a couple spots in the books, most noticeably when it appeared that Sirius was getting away. This always seemed like an odd break in his character - couldn't he take it in stride, you know? - and they dropped the tantrums in the movies, possibly because it would make Snape look less cool and more negative. Anyway, thing is, once you understand his motivation during that scene then the tantrums make horrible, horrible sense. His lady-love got betrayed and killed, and here after nearly twenty years he has the killer dead to rights and ready for swift and final judgment, but then the guy escapes and not only that, but rule-breaking Potter may have let him go. How could Snape take that with even an ounce of grace? So the scene makes total sense once you understand his motivation. Anyway, I thought some hint of this should be noted under the character's emotional description, but I'll leave that for someone else to do. Kilyle (talk) 23:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought they are already there:

Though usually calm and collected, Snape's temper is sometimes short where Harry is concerned. His temper flares dealing with his erstwhile tormentor Sirius and when accused of cowardice. Otherwise, he is collected and in control, rarely at a loss for words or taken off guard.

I guess you could be a bit stronger beyond "his temper flares"; "his usual calm demeanor is often shattered" or some such... Magidin (talk) 23:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Critic review.

Could something from this critic review be added in the character development section.

[6]

Its third party comments on the development, the whole moral journey and inner crises and how the readers like it and appreciate it? AroraJ (talk) 05:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The article has some interesting points to make, that could certainly make a nice addition to the page. Feel free to take your hand at it, then we can all tinker with it as we go along. Magidin (talk) 16:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition; I tightened it up a bit, but otherwise seems good. Magidin (talk) 16:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

GA

Just read the article again and I think with a through copy edit, it is ready to be nominated for good article. Its almost as good as Voldemort's one.124.29.229.133 (talk) 11:07, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction

I noticed in the Goblet of Fire section that it says that Snape's "secret mission" as a triple agent for the Order was "confirmed" in Half-Blood Prince. However, this isn't really true. Half-Blood Prince gives the impression that Snape was a double-agent working for the Death Eaters, and we don't learn his triple-agent status until the very end of Deathly Hallows. Perhaps this should be clarified? Beggarsbanquet (talk) 07:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)