Talk:Arab states of the Persian Gulf

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Title

Arab Gulf States seems like a much more common name from google.--Pharos 04:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was moved. enochlau (talk) 11:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Persian Gulf Arab States → Arab Gulf states — "Arab Gulf states" is the more correct term. It does NOT imply that the "Persian Gulf" is called the "Arab Gulf", but points to the Arab countries of the Persian Gulf. Google produces far more results for "Arab Gulf states" (88,000 vs 600). There are also several scholarly books by experts (eg Gregory Gause [1]) who refer to them as "Arab Gulf states" (see Persian Gulf Arab States#Further reading) Jungli 19:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Discussion

Why should this not be merged (under either name) into Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf, as the simplest clearly correct name? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Because the Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (GCC) is an organization, where the Arab Gulf states is a cultural/geographical region. This is in the same way that the European Union is an organization, whereas Europe is a cultural/geographical region. The two are very different. --Jungli 02:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But they cover the same area. (And it's a political/geographical region, as it consists of countries, rather than a cultural/geographical region.)
Add any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Geographical Specifications of PERSIAN GULF

Geographical Specifications of PERSIAN GULF Geographical Specifications of PERSIAN GULF The Persian Gulf is located in the southwest of the Asian Continent at 23 to 30 degrees northern latitude and 48 to 56 degrees longitude on the south side of the vast country of Iran, with a length of 1259 kilometer. Karoun, Zohreh, Jarrahi Mond, Dalki, Hendijan, Kol and Minab are the largest and the most watery rivers that flow into the PERSIAN GULF from the Iranian Plateau. The PERSIAN GULF is a projection of water from the Indian Ocean into a part of the Iranian Plateau. The whole northern part of it is covered by the Fars Province in Iran. T hus, if we were to presume that the sea did not have a name during history and those geographers and specialists were to select a name for this gulf, doubtlessly, they would find no better name than PERSIAN GULF, because Iran (PERSIA) is the largest country adjacent to this water body which possesses the longest coast. Besides, with a population of more than 70 million it is larger than any country located at the south margin of Fars.

http://pejman.azadi.googlepages.com/Iran

Historical, Geographical and Legal Validity of the Name: PERSIAN GULF

Geography, as the most ancient human knowledge is an applied science which has different aspects. It studies the reciprocal relation of man and nature and provides the results to the users in the form of documents in writing, books and maps. The names of features and phenomena including natural or man made ones have been considered by geographers for a long time, therefore similar features are distinguished by it. The name of a feature can not be observed on the land like the feature itself. Thus, by mentioning the case on maps, Atlases, and books, it will be protected during different eras as a part of historical, cultural identity and saved as mans heritage. For the same reason, any change, destruction, or alteration of the names registered in historical deeds and maps is like the destruction of ancient works and is considered as an improper action. Therefore, the names of geographical features profiting from a unique historical identity, should not be utilized as political instruments in reaching a political, tribal, and racial objective, or in any clash with national interests and other's values. This paper provides a short study of the historical background of the name PERSIAN GULF so that it might cast light on realities.


Persian Gulf's name in UN: http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/mideastr.pdf

http://pejman.azadi.googlepages.com/thepersiangulf&itsname —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.247.189.210 (talk) 11:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Okay, yes we know its called the Persian Gulf. But this is about the Arab states of the Persian Gulf. That's why it says Arab Gulf states and not Arabian Gulf states. --Jungli 13:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Page move

The page move was done unilaterally and without much discussion or a proper consensus. "Persian Gulf States" generates 138,000 google hits, while "Arab Gulf States" only generates 97,000 google hits, therefore "Persian Gulf States" is the more common name and should be used as the title in Wikipedia. I am reverting the the unilateral page move, if you want a page move, propose it and let there be a long discussion to reach a consensus. --Mardavich 11:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Google gives more hits for 'Persian Gulf states' than 'Arab Gulf states', so what?? They are different things. Persian Gulf states includes Iran, whereas Arab Gulf states only includes the Arab states of the Persian Gulf. However, there are far higher google hights for "Arab Gulf states" than "Persian Gulf Arab states" which is why this was selected. Plus, there are plenty academic works which refer to it as the "Arab Gulf states" (see Further Reading section of aricle). --Jungli 13:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There was a formal process that led to the page move; it was not unilateral at all. Jungli is right about the difference between "Persian Gulf States" and "Arab Gulf States". BTW, this issue has nothing to do with the name of the Persian Gulf.--Pharos 11:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, Jungli is incorrect about that. Iran is not included in the Persian Gulf States, [1]
  1. ^ "Persian Gulf Sates: Country studies" by Federal Research Division, Library of Congress (1995)

--Rayis 00:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Page name is correct as it is "The Arab Gulf" states, not the Persian Gulf states! is Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Qatar and Oman are Persian states or calling this sea as Persian Gulf? No! They are Arab States and calling this sea as the Arabian Gluf... that's why it makes logic in keeping the name of this page as it is and not politicalizing it as other pages related to this area. Ralhazzaa 04:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
the NPOV name of this article is "Arab states of Persian Gulf", when ever I have time, I will propose the move. --Pejman47 12:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Arab states of Persian Gulf"!! I think it is ponitless and obvious way to politicalize the article in total and start new Edit War here... Maybe someone else will come to say: "Arab states of Eastern part of the Persian Gulf of the Middle East of the Earth of the Solar System.....". We are here talking about the Arab Gulf States.. not about the Persian Gulf! There is already a Wikilinke to that sea within the article, if u mean geography should be mentioned. Cool down buddy Ralhazzaa 05:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is the correct neutral name. Arab States of the Persian Gulf or Persian Gulf Arab States. I believe it should be moved. Arab Gulf can be intrepreted as Arabian Gulf and that is not neutral. Either way Persian Gulf states gets more hit. It seems the original people who moved the page by two votes casted did not consider this issue. --alidoostzadeh 17:48, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose--الأهواز | Hamid | Ahwaz 17:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not vote yet, so keep your opinions till then. --alidoostzadeh 19:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Self-generated POVs are not neutral! Sorry to say that your "suggestion" is not logical, basically. Ralhazzaa 20:10, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no self-generating POV here and you will not be the only one voting on the issue. I can cite a good amount of books that use this term. It is fact. "Arab States" of the "Persian Gulf". And sure enough it has been used in academia. It is easy to find a great deal of books using this neutral name. All three "Arab Gulf States", "Persian Gulf Arab States" and "Arab States of the Persian Gulf" have been used in academia. The current name was changed by just two votes casted by two people. I was not part of that consensus as many other users weren't. So now it needs to be changed. So basically Sorry to say that your "opposition" is not logical, basically. --alidoostzadeh 20:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
this something else if u want to throw the table! But if u was talking with me regarding doing resource search, then I want to tell u that it is not here the palce for your original researches. Better you post it in your blog. Ralhazzaa 06:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a place for your original research either. For example claiming "Persian Gulf Arab States" or "Arab States of the Persian Gulf" are not used in academia is definitely OR by you. --alidoostzadeh 00:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Arab Gulf" States? Excuse me, but where is the "Arab Gulf"? Are we talking about the Arabian Sea? Or the Gulf of Oman? I cannot locate an "Arab Gulf" on any standard map. Please clarify. Thank You.--129.111.64.135 23:24, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then read the article and u will know.. or even ask someone wise enough if u don't trust here! (u r invited to be a real Wikipedian.. not only setting in San Antonio and post useless comments.. this is not a blog) Ralhazzaa 06:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps that's an abbreviation! The correct and/or complete name is Arabian Persian Gulf States or Arabian states of Persian Gulf.--Alborz Fallah 06:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you are really here to read and acquire knowledge, then you can find that what u r looking for here. But if some readers are coming to here fight, just for the sake of fighting, then this is not the right place for them. All the Best, Ralhazzaa 13:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Adding move tag per WP:RM. Please discuss. This is not necessarily a poll--Zereshk 00:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • The article specifically mentions "Arab Gulf" in capitalized letters, which is meant to imply that a body of water by that name exists, which does not. Please refrain from politicizing Wikipedia articles.--Zereshk 23:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did various searches. I think the best term is "Arab States of the Persian Gulf". Persian Gulf States or Arab Gulf States or Arab Persian Gulf States and etc.. all seem a little POV'ish for the name. The term "Arab States of the Persian Gulf" has been used by hundreds of Academic books and it doesn't cause any sort of controversy. I'll mention some of these books: A) Countries of the World and Their Leaders - Page 851- United States Dept. of State. Office of Media Services - 1977

A) (The Gulf War and the New World Order: International Relations of the Middle East - Page 308 by by Ismael, Tareq Y., Jacqueline S. Ismael ) 1994 C) The Empire of the Raj: India, Eastern Africa and the Middle East, 1858-1947 by Robert J. Blyth -2003 - Page 248 D) The Reckoning: Iraq and the legacy of Saddam Hussein - Page 360- by Mackey, Sandra - 2002 - E) The Persian Gulf in the Twentieth Century - Page 204-by John Marlowe - 1962 F) Handbook Of The Middle East by Michael G. Kort - 2002 - Page 39 G) Soviet Naval Diplomacy - Page 375 by James M. McConnell, Bradford Dismukes - 1979 H)A Present of Things Past - Page 90 by Theodore Draper - 2002 I) Islamism and Secularism in North Africa - Page 191 by Douglas Ruedy - 1996 J) Diplomacy in the Middle East: The International Relations of Regional and Outside Powers - Page xxvii by Leon Carl Brown - 2004 K) Diplomacy of Power: Soviet Armed Forces as a Political Instrument - Page 501 by Stephen S. Kaplan - L) Towards the Conceptualisation of Maritime Development: Legal and Technical Aspects of a ... - Page 18 by Nuno Sergio Marques Antunes - 2003 M) .. There are many more.

--alidoostzadeh 03:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree that the best term is Arab States of the Persian Gulf for the same reasons mentioned above. Houshyar 04:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is different, in difinition. The two articles talk about something different, that's why I oppose the merging. Ralhazzaa 05:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Arab states of Persian Gulf" is more informative ! If Arabic states themselves use this title as "Arab Gulf States", that's an internal terminology and there is no need to write a different Wiki-page for that: by merging or moving it with the international name, the informative mission of wikipedia is being fulfilled.--Alborz Fallah 08:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What is proposed by others is more disordered and politicalized title. If u don't like this tilte, then go and enjoy in the Persian Gulf States that should be including Iran and Iraq. This article here is entitled as used in the Arab world and widely used by other nations. By the way, what do u mean by "internal terminology" and where did u find this term in WP? Anyway, there is a policy in WP related with this issue telling how we shold use the common name that some users here want to make it fuzzy. This policy requires to use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. In this article, it is a name has a specisifc background of countries similar in economy, culture, traditions, state's system that is unique in that area. Even closest neighbouring countries admit this. Moreover, it is a common name and more conventional and widely used in Arab countries and many other nations. Including Iran and Iraq will take out the focus of this articel and the title will become without weight. If u want to politicalize this issue then go to mass-media, the UN, parliaments of the world, lobby groups...etc. but not in WP as it is not Political System. regards, Ralhazzaa 14:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The original name was something else. Two users (one of them a sock probably) can not change the name by themselves. Also the name suggests something else. Your reasoning is not sound. Of course wikipedia is not a democracy, but 2 people changing it without any consensus is dictatorial. The other terminologies brought so far are widely used as well, and they have no political overtone. --alidoostzadeh 16:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No politics?! OK! Then, drop it here and go develop the page Persian Gulf States if you want to project on Iran and Persian-related issues. Ralhazzaa 17:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's a Misnomer to call the known entity of "Persian gulf" as "The Gulf" ! When we are speaking about the Arab states of the Persian gulf it's abbreviation may became "Arab states of the Gulf " and that to the "Arab Gulf states" : all of this is only using vulgar terminology . That's just as using the word Xerox as an alternative for Photocopy: no problem is mentioning that in Wikipedia , but no new page ! --Alborz Fallah 17:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah! hope others can reach this point and not direct it to where it shouldn't go. Best,

Ralhazzaa 17:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If "where it shouldn't go " means not to merge , I'm advocating to move it , but to mention that (Arab Gulf states)is equivalent to Arabian states of Persian Gulf والسلام. --Alborz Fallah 20:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is the best solution actually. Since there is no POV here. It seems the page was moved from it's original name by two people. One of the people definitely had a POV (the one who proposed it). --alidoostzadeh 01:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I meant it should stay like this as it is not exactly what is included in the other article. The naming is not disputing as the article text is clarifying this with no doubts. Oppose to move as it against WP rules shown above. Ralhazzaa 04:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note to alidoostzadeh: if the system here is not going with your POV, you can't easily charge the editors being sock-puppets. It is better for you not to be a conspiracy theorist but to assume good faith. While in the same time being a defender for IP/Pejman.Azadi double edits. Ralhazzaa 04:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only one opposing name change right now is you. Furthermore, it is obvious the person who proposed the name change was not neutral and only one person voted for it. Unless there is a new consensus, the page should go back to it's original name.--alidoostzadeh 11:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear that some users are opposing your proposed changes as it is smells for political reasons. Those editors showed their opinion and go to build -not destroy- in other places through WP. Please save your efforts and don't try to go over WP rules shown above. Ralhazzaa 07:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I support Ali's decision to rename the page and I think you misunderstood me:we have to rename the page , but also to mention "Arab Gulf States" in the body of the text.--Alborz Fallah 17:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is much better for you to avoid dictating words through your comments in WP. Here, we are not receiving orders! Words like We have to doesn't work here and doesn't help your history profile too much. This encyclopedia is not owned by u or any Iranian body/organization/government to extend your POV here and keep ignoring the rules of WP shown above. If you want to violate the rules of WP, I'm not sure what will happen for your account, but there are legal process anyway u can read it in your Welcome message posted in your Personal Page. If your motivation in WP is to develop articles related to Iran, then go and develop Persian Gulf States that is widely different from here. Thanks for your understanding. Ralhazzaa 07:16, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Arab Gulf States to Arab states of the Persian Gulf as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 09:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq

I'd like to talk about this, This article is about the Arab states of the Gulf not the GCC (Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Persian Gulf) so here we are talking about a geography facts which is Iraq have a shore on the Golf so here by i added Iraq to the list. --MJKubba|talk|contributions 00:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay but you've just added the phrase "And Iraq" at the end, and at the moment it doesn't form a proper sentence. Ordinary Person (talk) 02:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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