Talk:Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zanoni666 (talk | contribs) at 17:01, 14 June 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Zanoni666 on Admin Page

I've copied this over from the admin page where it doesn't belong:

If you guys keep up reverting to pro-HOGD, Inc and remain unwilling to cooperate, the only good solution would be to delete ALL of the individual order pages and just keep the page on the historical Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and allowing no modern history at all except links to the various orderss web sites. The other alternative would be to toss everything having to do with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn entirely off ow Wikipedia. I can't believe how dishonest you are behaving, Max! Please stop this nonsense and collaborate...honestly rather than disingeniously by pretending that you have no vested interest.--Zanoni666 22:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Deleteing all the individual order's pages and leaving only the history of the original HOGD in London would actually suit me fine. Even removing all articles about the Golden Dawn from Wikipedia would be preferable to this endless bickering. So how's that for "unbiased"?
In this we finally agree and I am as unbiased as you. Let us delete and leave deleted all reference to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn from Wikipedia and end this bickering once and for all. Or was that just empty posturing JMax555?--Zanoni666 04:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, I actually mean it. I would be perfectly content with that outcome. - JMax555 05:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I keep trying to collaborate. I wrote out a list of what has no cited sources in the large addition you keep adding. Just scroll up the page here and look. Have you found any references outside of the HOGD/A+O website for any of it? The ball's in your court. If you find exact verifiable references for that stuff -- not from the HOGD/A+O website, or Yahoo forums, or alt.magic -- go ahead and put it in.
ONE reference to the SRIA-GD connection from fifty years ago has nothing to do with the HOGD/A+O, which didn't exist until 1998. Put in in the section on "Origins" where the SRIA roots are mentioned. But that's all that citation is useful for. You can't use this article to quote vast sections of your own website that have never been researched or published by anyone outside of your organization. That is bias.
I have my own opinions, and I've never denied it. What matters is if I put my opinions into my edits without reference to independent sources. At least you know who I am. I have no idea who you are. - JMax555 02:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is no collaboration. Let's start with something very basic. The assertion that the first order is analogical and symbolical is easily referencable and part of the "mainstream" account on the HOGD. It is well known in all GD circles that the first Order relies heavily on symbolism and the analogical process involving symbols. No one would disagree. Yet you do not even wish to include this portion, as it is not something you have written. That is not collaboration, but an attempt to dictate the entire article as if by executive power. Please try to work with the other party here. That is all. Either that, or let's just delete this whole thing as it is seems that it will become increasingly cumbersome and bitter. Kephera975 02:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK, let's stipulate I generally agree with the "analogical and symbolical" interpretation of the First Order. So let's find a citation for that in the literature somewhere. Regardie would be a good choice for a cite. In fact, I would be comfortable with just about anything that could be cited to Regardie. Generally speaking, if you can cite it to Regardie's Golden Dawn, I'll have no objection to it. Just preface it with, "According to Israel Regardie..." and cite a page number in the "Big Black Brick." Can we all be comfortable with that?
Here's an example: "According to another important theory, however, the Cypher Manuscripts had been received by noted Masonic scholar Kenneth Mackenzie from the Secret Chiefs of the "Third Order," a contenental Rosicrucian mystery school into which MacKenzie had been initiated by Count Apponyi of Hungary."
Now, do you have the text of this source available? Can you post the pertinent sections here for us all to read in context, or give us a link? I saw it once. It seemed very limited in scope about what it was saying. Where it belongs, I think, is in the Cipher Manuscripts article. That article was spun off because it made the main article exceed it's word count limit. There was no choice under the rules here, it had to be moved. There's discussion about that concensus in the Talk archives. There's a lot of arcane speculation about the Cipher, with competing theories of it's origin. What Wilson is writing about is a source for the Cipher. That's fine, join the crowd. There's a laundry list of theoretical sources in the Cipher Manuscripts article. Go ahead and add your favorite theory. I won't object to that -- you've got a cite for it. But by the way, articles in private circulation journals don't have the same value as sources as do books from major publishing houses. Neither do self-published or vanity press. That's why Gilbert, Howe, King, Greer, Shuster and Cicero are fully verifiable here. That's how the Wikipedia game is played.
What that Wilson citation doesn't support is a chain of inference leading up to the immortal Secret Chiefs bestowing the Neuvo Cypher on Mr. Griffin one fine day over fifty years later. Where's the citation for that? On your website. You can't use that in the main article. You don't have any citations for anything that isn't specifcally mentioned in Wilson's article (which certainly leaves out anything that happened after 1945). But the way the edit is written is as one long paragraph with one cite at the end, with a lot of additional content that doesn't come from that cite. So the unsourced content can't be extracted from it without making it unreadable. The only choice is to remove it and ask that the changes be discussed and citations given, and then ONLY add the parts that can be sourced. And the way I see it, what can be sourced belongs in the Cipher Manuscript article anyway, because that's what Wilson was writing about.
In general terms, no information that can ONLY be sourced to your organization's website can be used in the main article, not even as "according to their website..." paraphrasing. Website sources can only be used in the group's individual article, not the main article. If we can all agree to that, I'd call it a breakthrough. - JMax555 07:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stop editing and take survey - add support for version you prefer

Which of the last two version shall we take as the starting point forward:

Ehheh's:

Kephera975's:

  • Support: Considering that there seems to be a severe disadvantage with HOGD/A+O being a minority here, I think each vote on this side should count for 5. And, yes, I am voting for "my" version. Kephera975 04:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Can't present your case so as to win honestly, eh? -999 (Talk) 05:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, it's just that this shouldn't depend on Florida and Florida's brothers. Kephera975 05:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Only one of the editors you've been dealing with has even an indirect association. Don't you get it? You guys are transparent to everyone, even those who have no vested interest whatsoever? -999 (Talk) 05:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm sorry you didn't get the joke. Of course, this a particularly American comedy.Kephera975 05:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've noticed that jpg images were being used a reference! So I'm not supporting Kephera975's version. Zos
  • Support--Zanoni666 15:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • --SororAC 16:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC) User's first edit. Smells like socks. -999 (Talk) 16:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Please note that these issues affect more than the HOGD, Inc. boys club who have been trying to dominate the discussion here. I vote that the votes of all Ccicero trolls, 999, Zos, Eheih, and JMax555 be discounted and those of us who are independent, like myself, should only be counted!--GnomedPume 16:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC) User's first edit. Smells like socks. -999 (Talk) 17:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that this is a survey of editors who have actually worked on this article, not a vote. New users who have not edited the article may have their input discounted. -999 (Talk) 16:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New Survey

All those in Favor of Keeping this Article at all:

  • Support - this article would never get a delete vote on WP:AfD. So you're wasting your and everybody elses time. Remember also how Solomon picked the true mother from the false one. -999 (Talk) 05:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - agreed: This article cannot be deleted for reasons of dispute, there are too many sources, and more can be found by ordering from amazon, ebay, or wherever. Zos 12:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All those in Favor of Deleting this Article:

  • Support -Kephera975 05:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Zanoni666 15:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • --SororAC 16:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC) User's first edit. Smells like socks. -999 (Talk) 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support--GnomedPume 16:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC) User's first edit. Smells like socks. -999 (Talk) 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that User 999 socks' smell. Plese quit trying to rig the vote, 999.

999, I can smell your rotten stinky socks from here. Please quit your misrepresentations and harassment, I will report you to the admin page if you keep this up. I’ve told you before I don’t use sock puppets. Thanks for the link though, as when I report all your dirty socks to that page they will have hell of a lot of laundry to do.

I'll be happy to list you, Frater FiatLux, and all your socks at WP:RFCU. -999 (Talk) 16:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if SororAc and GnomedPume can actully vote in this. This is the first time I'm noticing them on this talk page as well as in editing the article. Zos 17:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They are shiny new users, just created this morning. They aren't even capable of editing the article, since it is semi-protected. -999 (Talk) 17:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Votes are generally discouraged on Wikipedia anyway. I suggest that everyone just forget about this little exercise and move on. Ehheh 17:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, that reference is not even a guideline, it is an essay. Conducting surveys is an official process recommended under the official dispute resolution policy -999 (Talk) 17:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There appears to be a definite concensus that etleast the contemporary orders section of this article should be deleted. I think the whole blasted thing should be deleted personally or else this controversy will never end. Hopefully, administration/mediation will agree. Kephera975 15:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Administrators aren't empowered to delete an article unless it meets the speedy deletion criteria, or it has been through a successful WP:AFD. Mediation doesn't touch on article deletion at all. I suggest you give Wikipedia:Deletion_policy a read. - Ehheh 16:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I would be in favor of keeping the article and making it FACTUAL and free of POV if only I could believe that there were any genuine will to compromise on the side of the HOGD, Inc. licenced trolls here. However, I am very pessimistic that this will be possible. Therefore I regrettably support the proposal of user JMax555 that all pages relaltive to the HOGD be deleted. Perhaps we could still keep the main page is we elliminate all reference to any modern developments and keep the material purely historical. This would mean at least deleting all of the pages about modern Golden Dawn derivitive orders where it seems the least likely that there can ever be any historical consensus at thiws juncture. I am, however, pessimistic, that even saving the main page will be possible as you folks seem unwilling to eliminate biased POV from that article as well, insisting on maintianing the illusion that the HOGD was somehow created by the SRIA, which is simply not true, despite the fact that MacKenzie, Wescott, Woodman, and Mathers were members of SRIA. You even try to argue that deception on the part of the SRIA regarding the creation of the HOGD is not germain to the article as "this is not an article about SRIA. No...it is about the HOGD, however, you editors trying to create the ILLUSION that the HOGD was created by the SRIA makes it germain. Furthermore, the fact that Chic Cicero, Gilbert, and Runyon all belong to SRIA makes is very clear the HOGD, Inc, POV bias of advancing this theory as though it were the only one as a backhonded way of supporting Cicero and HOGD, Inc.

Likewise, you all iinsist on mentioning only one theory regarding the origins of the Cypher Manuscripts "that they were invented by MacKenzie", without even mentioning the possibility that other theories exist. You refuse to mention even the POSSIBILITY that they might have been obtained by MacKenzie from an earlier Rosicrucian source. Again, you HOGD, Inc. supporters are proposing one historical theory as the only one and as though it were universally accepted exclusively for reasons of POV bias, refusing to even mention even the POSSIBILTY of alternative theories. In doing so, you are hiding behind a thini veneer of a verifiability argument. However, the real reason that you refuse to even mention the POSSIBILITY of another source is due to pro-HOGD, Inc POV bias due to the A+Os claim that they are presently in contact with that earlier source, ie, the Secret Chiefs of the Third Order in Contintntal Europe. The latter need not be mentioned, however, at least the theory of an alternative Continental origin should be mentioned as a response to the Ana Sprengel "forgery" argument proposed by Gilbert and not just that MacKenzie made them up.

In conclusion, due to the intransigence of the pro-HOGD, Inc. block presently trying to ramrod its pro-HOGD, Inc vision of history through the main page as though their vision were the only "mainstream" one, I see little hope of being able to reach a POV unbiased consensus here on main page either. Therefore, once again, and quite regrettably, I concur with the proposal of JMax555 that we may well have to delete even the main page to end this bickering. --Zanoni666 15:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't make that proposal, you did. I said I would go along with it.
And I wanted to move ALL information about the Cipher Manuscripts to it's own article, including all the "theories", but you keep putting it back in. I propose all theories of the source of the Ciphers be kept in it's own article.
That all of the Golden Dawn founders were members of the SRIA is historical fact, easily verifiable in multiple sources. They were all Grand Lodge Masons too. The Golden Dawn bears remarkable resemblence to both organizations; the Golden Dawn essentially uses the same names for it's Grades as does the SRIA. So those facts are germaine to the history of the Order.
The Anna Sprengel "forgery" argument can be referenced to Gilbert's works still in print, and he's a widely published author in the field, so it's fully verifiable. Your arguement is original research about a conspiracy theory that's never been published anywhere, to my knowledge, except on your own website. I don't suppose you have any citations about "Secret Chiefs of the Third Order in Continental Europe", do you?
If you want to "answer" Gilbert's arguements, go get your original research published by a major imprint, with fact-checking and editorial oversight, like he did. Then you can cite it in Wikipedia. - JMax555 23:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


An article deletion poll on this page won't accomplish that aim. If you really feel the article should be deleted, you need to take it to the proper venue, which is WP:AFD. - Ehheh 15:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we could certainly etleast discuss whether this should be a contemporary article at all or a purely historical one giving no pretenses to being a contemporary article under anyone's particular POV, couldn't we? Kephera975 16:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it has already been decided that this is to be a strictly historical article. Do you wish to reopen that discussion? Why? Autobiographical web sources can only be used in an article about the person or organization which created the site. Therefore, no information from ANY of the contemporary orders web sites can be used on this page. -999 (Talk) 16:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then what does (i.e.)"many golden dawn practitioners today believe..." have to do with the historical G.D.? That is putting in a contemporary slant about how some people think the Secret Chiefs are Buddha or Gandhi. There should be no mention of contemporary, and not even references of contemporary G.D. Orders in this article at all if it is purely historical. Kephera975 16:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually "many ... believe" is a violation of WP:WEASEL unless a specific citation is given. I'll remove it. -999 (Talk) 16:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Awaiting sources

Statements removed from the article pending provision of reliable sources:

The Ahathoor Temple No. 7 of Mathers' A+O is known to have been revived in Paris in the early 1980's, however.[citation needed]
The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was originally conceived as a three order system. The outer order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, was a symbolical order. The Second Order, the RR+AC was operative, practicing a Qabalistic and Enochian magical system, yet working at the level of the lunar, analogical mysteries. The Third Order was supposed to place the capstone upon the pyramid, with the operative tradition of the solar mysteries. History was to prevent this from happening, however. While S.L. MacGregor Mathers was still manifesting his brilliant synthesis of Qabalistic and Enochian magic for the Second Order, the Adepts of the RR+AC rebelled in London, provoking the order's first schism. This was quickly followed by the Horos scandal and by the betrayal of the order by Aleister Crowley, who despite his oaths published the secret teachings of the RR+AC, thus preventing the completion of the entire Three Order system for over a century.[citation needed]
In modern esotericism, there exist three types of esoteric orders. These fall into two general categories; symbolical and operative. Among the operative orders, there are those which are analogical (lunar) or direct (solar). At the simplest level we find the symbolical orders like Freemasonry and the outer order of the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. In these orders, spiritual wisdom is presented in symbolical form; either exclusively during the initiation rituals in the case of Freemasonry, or together with supplemental study materials as in the case of the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in the outer.[citation needed]
At the more advanced level come the so-called, operative orders. Operative orders employ special magical or alchemical operations for spiritual development. In a further distinction, there exist two kinds of operative systems and orders. Firstly, in the analogical, operative systems, practitioners operate with systems referring by analogy to yet higher, more direct, and more advanced operations and systems. Analogical operative systems are thus called lunar mysteries as, much as the moon reflects the light of the Sun, their light is reflected by analogical reference to higher operative processes. Nonetheless, despite her reflective nature, the moon indeed remains a luminary. So also the analogical operative systems remain powerful tools for spiritual development in and of themselves, despite their analogical nature.[citation needed]
The Solar mysteries comprise an operative tradition that lies at the apex of the Rosicrucian as well as the entire Western Esoteric tradition. The Solar operative tradition represents the capstone of the entire Western Esoteric Tradition, lying as it does upon the Hermetic pillars Alchemy and Theurgy. Here, we find not some mere mystical meditation upon alchemical images or psychological nonsense, but rather the supreme esoteric corpus of operative practices that all other genuine magical and alchemical operations only refer to by analogy. It is the summun bonum, the apex of the pyramid. Very little is known about the solar mysteries, except that that they comprise the most jealously guarded and secret part of the Western Esoteric Tradition and involve the true and most secret preparation, rectification, and multiplication of the philosopher's stone. Mathers' Rosicrucian Order or A+O today claims to have received the Solar Mysteries of the Third Order, together with the Cypher Manuscripts for the Third Order initiation rituals from the Secret Chiefs in 2002.[citation needed]
The Third Order apparently contains the Solar Mysteries. The only Golden Dawn order existing today which claims the teachings and initiation rituals of the Third Order is Mathers' Rosicrucian Order of A+O.[citation needed]
Like S.L. MacGregor Mathers himself,[citation needed] his Rosicrucian Order of A+O today claims that the Secret Chiefs are actually physical persons rather than disincarnate entities or some vague 'current'. MacGregor Mathers claimed to have physically met with the Secret Chiefs in Paris in 1891. Today the Rosicrucian Order of A+O claims to have reestablished contact with physical representatives of the Secret Chiefs in Paris in 2002. According to the A+O, the Secret Chiefs are physical members of an extremely secretive and ancient western mystery school. This most occult of all orders originated in Sumer, continued in Chaldea and Egypt, and was brought to Europe by the Greek and Roman empires and have provided materials for the creation of many of the known esoteric orders.[citation needed]
Many Golden Dawn practitioners today believe that the Secret Chiefs are not necessarily living humans or supernatural beings, but are the symbolic "current" of all the actual and legendary sources of spiritual esotericism. Any great leader or teacher of a spiritual path or practice that found its way into the teachings of the Order -- and that definition covers a wide range, from paganism to Buddhism to Judeo-Christianity -- can be considered as a Secret Chief of the Golden Dawn. They are "secret" not by virtue of being unknown to the outside world, but rather that their knowledge has found its way into the "secrets" of the Order. Their teachings are "secret" because they can only be fully understood by someone who embarks on the path of spiritual advancement and attains Adepthood.[citation needed]
Citations:
  • The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern by Alex Owen (ISBN: 0226642011 - University of Chicago Press), page 62: "It remained generally understood that Westcott and MacGregor-Mathers were in touch with and spoke on behalf of the discarnate Secret Chiefs of the exalted Third Order. The Third Order was thus reserved for the elusive Secret Chiefs of occult tradtion, and within the Golden Dawn it was accepted that it was rarely (if ever) acessible to a mere mortal. In practice, therefore, the Grade of Adeptus Exemptus 7°=4° in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn was the highest to which a man or woman might reasonably aspire."
  • Spirit Allies by Christopher Penczak (ISBN: 1578632145 - Red Wheel/Weiser Books), page 27: "Some worldly organizations such as Madame Blavatsky's Theosphical Society and The Golden Dawn magical lodge are said to be led by such ascended masters. Ascended masters supposedly gave Alice Bailey her information for volumes of esoteric material she created. Encountered masters cut cultural, religious and gender lines, but include religious icons, saints and prophets like Quan Yin, St. Germain, Mother Mary, Simon Peter, Jesus, Thoth, Merlin, Aradia, and Kuthumi."
- JMax555 23:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my proposal for a re-write of that paragraph:
Other followers of the Golden Dawn believe that "Secret Chiefs" are not necessarily living humans or supernatural beings, but are symbolic of actual and legendary sources of spiritual esotericism, a great leader or teacher of a spiritual path or practice that found its way into the teachings of the Order.{ref} Penczak, Christopher Spirit Allies (ISBN: 1578632145 - Red Wheel/Weiser Books), page 27.{/ref}
  • Select - a much better choice of paragraph than the one below.:-) -999 (Talk) 03:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- JMax555 00:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some great examples of how USER:JMAX555 attempts to use Wikipedia's policy of verifiability as the end-all be-all policy while avoiding the fact that this article should be on the purely historical G.D. One reference above talks about the Theosophical Society, for example. Yet this section of the article has been included over and over by JMAX and the supposed "unbiased" editors who kept reverting back to it without a second glance, yet making sure that every little item that might be coming from the A+O needs a citation. Kephera975 03:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can debate the value of a proposal without being rude, you know. If you wanted to challenge something previously in the article for a citation, you had every opportunity to do so. In fact, it was 999 who challenged it, the user I'm supposedly "in cahoots" with. I guess we make lousy co-conspirators.
Please notice I didn't propose using a reference to the Theosophical Society, I proposed an edit using one that refers to the Golden Dawn specifically by name. If you want, you can find it yourself online through Google Books. I used the search words "golden dawn"+"secret chiefs". Found a lot of stuff, mostly echoes of what's in Regardie's books, which is to be expected. Nothing about new Secret Chiefs handing out new Cipher Manuscripts, though.
Please also notice that I took the time and effort to type up the text so people could actually read what I was referencing. And so you or anyone could criticize it. And I did all this BEFORE I edited it to the article. See how this works?
So how about you or FiatLux taking the time to type up the text of this Wilson reference so we can all read it in context. We can't find it in a bookstore or even through inter-library loan. You say a small Rosicruian Order in England might sell us a copy, but it would take weeks at least. So if you have the text, how about providing it? I think that's a pretty reasonable request. - JMax555 04:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then, I would suggest that you provide quotes from every text used for this article. I may as well put "needs citations" under everything that is written in this article and demand the text immediately. I'll be putting in the need for citatations at just about every sentence. Be ready to provide citations. Furthermore, I don't particularly care if 999 is a member of any GD organization. It is apparent from the way that he has handled this whole thing that he has taken sides. As far as the Wilson article, you will need to consult with the S.R.I.A., and I'm sure they'd eb willing to oblige you.You're favorite S.R.I.A. scholar(Gilbert) calls the work one of the most scholarly pieces written by the S.R.I.A. Kephera975 12:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That would be a violation of WP:POINT. Let's clear up the current citation issues first. Then if you want to tag stuff that everybody agrees with out of spite, go for it. We'll all know how you are. -999 (Talk) 12:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

The citations you are asking for are almost all incluced on page 12 of the Bruce paper which is already cited. So please quit being lazy,m quit , whining, contact the SRIA, get a copy and verify. Until then, quit making so mush noise and quit being disruptive with so many unwarrented reversions--Zanoni666 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please give a book reference. Papers are not reliable sources unless they have been published by a reputable publisher. -999 (Talk) 00:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look 999; Zanoni666 nor anyone else for that matter has any obligation to hold your hand through all this. You need to get out there and conduct some work of your own, the citation has already been given, in print form as Zanoni666 has said above, and has even given you a page number for goodness sake.

Please quit trying to be obstructive and propagating unrest when the information is already there for you to find. Oh, and call off all of your army of recruited users to so that we can get some kind of neutral consensus on the editing and reverting. And that means not going around to every users discussion page you can find, and pasting the links in to their discussion page and telling them to keep watch and revert the articles back to your egregious versions.

And please, don't cite another arbitrary Wiki link.


Frater FiatLux 01:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have to follow WP:V and WP:RS - they are official policies. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself, you have no one but yourself to blame for your troubles. -999 (Talk) 01:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:This citation is comprehensive, you're again being obstructive the information has been given, it's up to you if you if you want to prove this citation wrong. We stand by this citation as a verifiable source; it is up to you to contest this. Until you can say that the information is not given on page 12 of the Bruce paper at the SRIA then please cease and desist with your obstructive misrepresentations.

Please remember 999 no personal attacks and civility any more comments like that and I will report you forthwith.

Frater FiatLux 01:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, User:999 please refrain from accusing people of being "sock puppets" without evidence like our newest editors Opuat and Soror AC. This is uncivil and there is no need to "bite the newcomers" just because you're more "seasoned" in policy. I think these policies are in place to keep things together, and not to be used as devices of threat. Kephera975 03:08, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quite right Kephera, I completely agree. 999, quit exploiting the newcomers to the article, as you have no proof that our newest editors are co called sock puppets. None whatsoever, I'm in the UK, Zanoni666 is in the USA and Opuat is in Germany for example. Please behave yourself 999. Obviously other people in the community, such as the new editors, are noticing the evidence 999 that was put up that went to show that you’re recruiting random Wikipedia users to form an army to edit/revert, so that you and your faction can evade the 3RR.

Frater FiatLux 03:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Might I suggest a quote or three from the source, not too long, but getting the essentials clear. It might help you to elucidate the matter. It's not clear, in your prose, where the source ends and interpretation enters. Language, as you know, is a virus from outer space. -999 (Talk) 02:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Might I suggest you refrain from extraneous incoherent messages? Like I've just said to you, nobody is under any obligation to help you verify our citations, we've cited a verifiable source and given explicit references such as page numbers to verifiable information, to us, this is a very lucid account of verifiable citation. Thus, the matter is perfectly clear to us; it is you 999 that needs the elucidation, not us. You need to go and prove our source wrong if you wish to dispute our citation, it is yourself that needs to locate our printed source from the SRIA and conduct your own research. If you cannot, or you’re not willing to, then I would suggest that you refrain from making unsubstantiated allegations about our verifiable source. If you'd rather make unsubstantiated accusations over the Internet regarding our source, just because you can't be bothered to go and look for it, might I suggest that you cease questioning the citation and quit your obstructive, interfering and superfluous rhetoric.

We have served verifiable information with specific page numbers, -It is up to you to prove this wrong not us- I suggest that you conduct the relevant research into this if you wish to prove your case. If not, to be frank, simply shut up.

I must be getting to you as you’ve reverted to personal attacks; I treat such misguided comments with the disdain that they deserve. I will only further reiterate: Please remember 999 no personal attacks and civility any more comments like that and I will report you forthwith to administration. Frater FiatLux 03:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think your source falls under the definition of what Wikipedia guidelines call exceptional claims:
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence.
Certain red flags should prompt editors to closely and skeptically examine the sources for a given claim.
* Surprising or apparently important claims that are not widely known.
* Surprising or apparently important reports of recent events not covered by reputable news media.
* Reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended.
* Claims not supported or claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view in the relevant academic community. Be particularly careful when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them.
I take particular note of the last point in that list of attributes.
We need to see the actual text of this article, to be sure it says what you say it does. And the burden of proof is always on the one who wishes to add or retain an edit, not the one who wishes to have it removed.
And frankly, when you scold someone else for incivility and personal attacks, I can't understand why your head doesn't explode.

- JMax555 04:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

JM, we are dealing with clandestine fraternities here, it is hardly going to be covered by the news media or such like is it, really, you do surprise me, this isn't the OSOGD you know. You have the page number and the name of the text and where to find it, therefore, it is not a surprising claim, it is verifiable print source that we can cite. I still feel that the whole lot should be deleted, as realistically both sides are never going to agree on a definitive version of the article from any number of sources. After all this discussion we are still no where near a solution. I would suggest that at this stage, it would appear by far the best option judging from the discussions, that the whole thing should be deleted; otherwise this rather pointless arguing will never end. All as we need is a consensus to delete the article.

Frater FiatLux 05:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think JMAX555 is forgetting that the GD is what is called a "secret society", not a publishing house. Etleast, that is what it was historically. In this case, the verifiability element should actually not be as big of a deal. Now, if we are being edited by the OSOGD and most Thelema oriented individuals, they, ofcourse, do not believe in secrecy, but this is an article on the Golden Dawn which, historically, believed in the tenet of Hermetic Secrecy. If I were to read this article as a complete outsider, I would think this article were about a commercial entity of some kind selling new age publishing house material, rather than a secret society. I agree with Frater Fiat Lux that this should be considered in relation to the article. Kephera975 12:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Veirifability is ALWAYS a "big deal" in Wikipedia. It is one of the Three Guidelines that is "non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus." So even if I agreed with you, which I don't, it doesn't matter. If your organization wants to keep its "hermetic secrets" and not submit its original research and off-beat theories to editorial peer-review and fact-checking in order to get them properly published, that's your choice and your problem.
There's plenty of available public information about the Golden Dawn, both historical and regarding modern revival organizations. It hasn't been a "secret society" for decades, except for those organizations like the HOGD/A+O that have created their own idiosyncratic versions that only apply to themselves.
My own GD group has been interviewed, and had a ritual witnessed in person, by an author (Cristine Wicker) who published her account in a recent book (Not In Kansas Anymore)under the Harper-San Francisco imprint. Mr. Cicero's organization has had similar examples of being described by third parties in major published works. Our policies toward "secrecy" in this regard works to our advantage in the realm of Wikipedia. That yours does not is again your choice and your problem.
If your group is really a "hermetic secret society", what in the world are you doing creating public websites and pushing to get articles about you in an on-line encyclopedia? Secret societies are, well, secret. You should be avoiding all publicity like the plague. That's what the original "secret" Golden Dawn Orders did, and if that's the standard you wish to emulate, you should do the same. But it seems you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want publicity and you want to be a "secret society", all at the same time. You want to be able to make all sorts of outlandish claims in Wikipedia by having the Verifiability guidelines relaxed -- just for you -- and not have to offer any documentable proof by claiming it's a "secret". I'm sorry to say that Wikipeida -- and the real world -- doesn't work that way.
So, we're still waiting for citations for the list of material above. I showed you how it was done by providing a cite in a verifiable published work for the one paragraph of mine that was, quite rightly I might add, challenged by User 999. Did I go off on User 999 and accuse him of prejudice or a conspiracy of bias against me? No. I got out the books, did the work, and provided the text of a source for support (so people here could easily examine it for themselves), and then re-wrote it to conform with ONLY what I could find in that source. It would be an act of good faith on your part to do the same, instead of trying to get the rules bent for your convenience. - JMax555 16:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone would like to look at the article on Thelema on Wikipedia, you will not have to look far for the reasons why 999 sides with J MAX(whose organization is referenced on 999's Thelema page). He has been the main editor regarding that article. Don't let him fool you into thinking he is unbiased. This article should not be written by a group of individuals who, in general, have contempt for Mathers, Westcott and the majority of the historical principles of the Golden Dawn!!! Kephera975 15:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What articles other editors choose to edit has no bearing on their qualifications to edit other articles. Suggesting such might be considered rather uncivil. Thanks. -999 (Talk) 16:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Inappropriate Deletion

This morning I readded the material inappropriately deleted using revert-revert tactics by the HOGD, Inc licencee faction. Listen guys, indtead of insisting on such tactics, why not discuss the changes here in good faith? Do we really need to get a mediator in here. Your 'steamroller' tactics will not work, no many how many other users you solicit to revert here we will stop you until you listen to reason and discuss the issues without trying to rig surveys with readers you bring in from outside to create an illusion of false consensus. We can and will do the same if you force our hand. We do not want this, however. You are the ones forcing the reverts, not us.--Zanoni666 17:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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