Talk:Falun Gong/Archive 16

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by CovenantD (talk | contribs) at 01:12, 28 June 2006 (→‎...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, add new messages pertaining to editing the FLG article at the bottom of this page.

It is suggested that new readers of this "talk page" read the archived discussions below. It is likely that an issue of concern has already been discussed. As a result, a would-be poster can save the Wikipedian community time and effort spent on otherwise rehashing an issue if this responsbility is undertaken.
Please remember that this isn't the place to vent our spleens in condemnation or gush praise for Falun Gong itself as much as it is to comment on the actual article content. We don't want a puff piece for Falun Gong or Li Hongzhi, neither do we want to demonise them. If we have an objectively neutral, factual article one hopes the truth will speak for itself, however we may subjectively perceive it.

Additional suggested reading

These are policies of Wikipedia and style guides for writing good articles.

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words
Wikipedia:Verifiability Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not
Wikipedia:No original research Wikipedia:Assume good faith
Wikipedia:Citing sources Wikipedia:No personal attacks
Wikipedia:Reliable sources Wikipedia:Civility
: Examples for references Wikipedia:Etiquette
Wikipedia:Notability Wikipedia:Resolving disputes

Archived discussions

Discussion on Christianity and other things (still running)

  • I told you early on that I removed the name of every single Dafa disciple from Hell's list. Every ordinary person is listed in that registry. I have removed the names of Dafa disciples from Hell's registry. I had their names removed from Hell. So your names are not there. In other words, you are not in any way beings of the Three Realms, and you are no longer ordinary persons. http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/4/1/2006_LA_Lecture.html
  • Congratulations Dafa Disciples!!!

Yes, so what are you trying to say? Yes, Master Li has saved all Dafa Disciples from hell, he has done the most compassionate deed. So what are you trying to say? Who are you to criticize the teachings of Dafa? Please proove to me that what Master Li has said is not true, can you do that? No you can't, and everything else is POV. If you say Master Li is fake, does that mean that Master Li is fake? Who are you to say what is true and what isn't true? /Omido 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I can prove that what Li has said about saving practitioners from hell is not true. I just check the list in heaven and I see no practitioners on it. So I call the guys in hell and they told me that they are expecting Li soon. If Li can not even save himself from hell then how can he save others? If you want the phone number to hell I can give it to you but I am not sure they will answer your call. They are pretty angry at your master for claiming to be doing their job--Samuel Luo 23:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't talked with Hell, but “The jerk store called, they’re running out of you!” Hehe, just kidding. What? Haven't you seen Seinfeld? Take this lightly, it's just a joke, but it also points out the childish nature of the comments above. :-) Mcconn 10:35, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Omido, it is not "criticism" to simply want to honestly report what the Master's teachings are. However, I certainly could add some critical commentary of my own. My main criticism is that Master Li has set up an incredible "us-versus-them" system of theology in which there are the "saved ones"...and now Li says all the Dafa disciples are saved from Hell merely because they are Dafa disciples...and those who are not worthy of being saved. On top of that, he defines worthy as agreeing with his agenda to eliminate the "evil" Chinese Communist Party by standing up for his Dafa. What this means is that Li's goal of destroying the CCP (frankly, I consider it an attachment) takes presidence over all other worldly goals, like eliminating hunger or finding peaceful solutions to world conflicts. As with so much of the Falun Gong, it all seems to be so incredibly self-serving. Although those are some of my criticial thoughts, I am not even trying to introduce those thoughts into this article. All I really want to do is report the Master's teachings honestly, which you seem opposed to doing. --Tomananda 22:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That explains how much you know. /Omido 22:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This has degenerated into petty bickering. Somebody let me know when you decide to work on the article again. CovenantD 00:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FALUN GONG DISCUSSION FORUM! Please, focus on discussion of issues pertaining to editing the FLG articles.

I must say you dont understand the teachings at all. In your lack of understanding you pull out a few quotes and mis-represent them. Thats not what Falun Dafa teaches. There is so much context and inner meaning that goes behind every sentence in the teachings and they cannot be presented in a way that distorts the context. Say two lines are pulled out from the Bible and mis-represented. Would we be doing justice to the way Jesus Christ revealed? When we pull out two lines we must make clear why those lines were chosen, and whether the context has been made clear.. Dilip rajeev 06:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Really, Dilip? What exactly don't I understand in the teachings? Isn't it pretty clear that Li is saving Dafa disciples from Hell, while every ordinary person is listed on Hell's directory? Omido confirmed that as the belief, saying "Yes, Master Li has saved all Dafa Disciples from hell, he has done the most compassionate deed." That seems pretty clear and basic to me. What is not clear is why we have to spend weeks on end getting an acknowlegment from pratitioners that this is, indeed, what Falun Gong teaches and what the practitioners believe. I seems that as we have discussed these teachings, there has been more and more acknowlegment from the practitioners that this is what is believed, so I think Wikipedia is doing a good thing.
If the beliefs can be acknowledged in discussion, then they can be reported in the introduction, right? As to your analogy to Christianity, I don't see your point. Sentences are pulled from the Bible all the time and proudly proclaimed by Christians. And some Christian denominations in the United States proudly display big signs outside their churches that say "Jesus Saves." Millions of Christians believe that Jesus saves and I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is the incredible dishonesty of the Falun Gong. I wish I could say it more softly, but I can't. You want millions of Americans to support you in your fight against the Chinese Government, but every time I hear one of your PR-driven stories, like the one about the alleged organ harvesting in Sujian, I think to myself: if you cannot even be honest about your fundamental beliefs, how can you be honest about what is happening in China?
For your own information, I was raised a Christian and I was taught to love my neighbor as myself. Christian ethics are very positive and loving for all human beings. But there is another, equally important part of Christianity which has to do with the role Jesus plays in offering salvation to mankind. Li makes the same kind of claim. It seems obvious to me that these teachings must be reported in Wikipedia and maybe now that we have reached this understanding we can proceed with the editing. --Tomananda 08:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That line of thinking is clearly wrong. How can you say arbitrary quotes can represent Christianity? Sadly, almost nothing in life, and especially a complex belief system with thousands of years of history, can be understood so simply. You do dishonor to the entire Christian tradition. You should not hijack a belief system and say it represents something unless you are able to back it up. It seems clear that you are doing the same with the Falun Gong teachings too. ~~— Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Whitemanners (talk • contribs)

Tomananda, of course we will report on the teachings on Falun Gong, but we won't just take two quotes and misrepresent them. You think the whole article will end up like the "Critism and Contreversies" article? Not a chance. Also, you should know that alot have to be changed in the Critism and Contreversies article too, but we will get to that. /Omido 10:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tomananda, Falun Dafa teachings are very profound.. Through cultivation practice one can achieve perfection or consummation but that doesnt come from "belief" alone. Falun Dafa teaches compassion for all sentient beings. Christianity also teaches compassion. The christian teachings also point out there are things or behaviours we must give up to assimilate to a higher natrue.. Is it right to label it as "elitism"? .. Jesus Christ in his compassion pointed out the flaws within us which we must give up to progress in cultivation.. it is not "intolerance" or anything.. For a cultivator there is only compassion.. compassion for all sentient beings Dilip rajeev 12:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You guys saying that unbelievers aren't qualified to edit the article because we can't possibly understand how wonderful FLG is (or even Christianty is) is arrogantly, patronisingly dismissive and isn't going to fly. I, for one, am certain that I understand Li Hongzhi and FLG very, very well. I have the ears to hear what he is saying, to paraphrase Jesus. Add to that Li Hongzhi ordering his followers to publicly obscure his teachings and the above conversation makes perfect sense. You guys have to give up the attempts at conversion and accept that there are a lot of us who disagree with you no matter what, and that the article is going to reflect that. --Fire Star 火星 14:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The reality is that it is impossible to understand anything well unless lots and lots of time is spent studying it. Above, the gentleman explains his view that it is possible to understand Christianity from reading a few arbitrary passages. I would say he is thoroughly wrong. Falun Gong practitioners- how many works has your Master written? Hundreds? How many pages do all of the works encompass? This is a good question to ask yourselves. Second, are any of these passages conflicting on first glance? Are there places where almost irreconciliable views are given? There has to be, as with any philosophical system there usually is. Third, if the gentleman above claims you FLG people believe such and such, and it is clear you don't, that counts for something. If your understanding of a passage here or there conflicts heavily, it just illustrates that the beliefs need to be analyzed in greater depth. Only a novice would claim that he or she understands Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and others, with only a few hours of reading here and there. Christianity dominated European thought for over 1,000 years. How many saints and great works developed throughout that time? There are scholars who spend there entire lives interpreting and researching the New Testament. Yet there is no consensus.

Mr. Tomananda, my apologies if this is not what you are accustomed to hearing. But your claim is utterly wrong. Do you agree with me now, after that long explanation? Whitemanners 18:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, your posting and those of other practitioners above support the idea that thought control and information control are at work in Falun Gong. Li tells his disciples to study, read and memorize his bible, the Zhuan Falun, over and over again. He also says you cannot study other religions or cultivation practices, only Falun Gong, so practitioners routinely throw away their other books. The effect of all of this is to get practitioners to internalize the group's doctrine as "The Truth." No alternative belief systems are viewed as legitimate or useful. This kind of cultish indoctrination leads to a closed system of logic in which no outside input is accepted as valid. More and more the practioners, although they live with "ordinary people," become dependent on each other to reinforce this internalized truth. In many cases, practitioners who are married to non-practioners become estranged from their spouses, resulting in divorce and the break-up of families. Everything the group does goes to the benefit of the group or the group leader. There is an "us-versus-them" mentality which the leader inculcates as a control mechanism. Ordinary people, those who do not accept the master's teachings, are demonized in one way or another. Does any of this sound familiar to anyone reading this post? --Tomananda 20:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please, you are changing the topic. We were discussing about Christianity. And philosophy. Thought control? How did you come to that conclusion. What I said is that to understand Christianity, Islam, even Nietzche or Hegel, it is not as simple as you imply. I'm sorry, but it's not. The world is tough, I know. A man who fails to devote countless hours of patience and discipline to studying something usually will not understand it. A body of vast works needs lots of time to study it. Authors/thinkers/prophets are usually contradictory, their works are complicated, and the more writing they have, the more complicated it can be to interpret. Throwing out random quotations does absolutely no good. Do you finally agree with me now? Your interpretations above obviously can't do the FLG group justice. And you really are on shaky foundations. I would also like to request that you stick to the topic at hand.

No, I don't agree with you. Our task as editors is to summarize as succinctly as possible the central concepts of Falun Gong on the main page. By defintion, a summary does not attempt to provide an in-depth understanding of any complex subject. Here's the Wikipedia summary for Christianity:

  • Christianity is a monotheistic[1] religion centered on the stories of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the Gospels.[2]. Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion.[3]

Notice that words like "Messiah" and "Christ" are linked. Notice also that the summary does not attempt much detail about Jesus's ethical teachings, but it does touch on the soteriological aspect of Christianity and the special status of Jesus as the perceived Christ. We need a simple summary of Falun Gong that includes the bulleted items that have been posted above.

As to my summary of the cultish aspects of Falun Gong, it was a response to your advocating spending "lot and lots of time" studying Falun Gong in order to "understand" it. Well, that is what Li says as well, and given the endless stream of proslytizing discussion posts we have encountered from practitioners...are you also a practitioner?...your words become suspect.--Tomananda 23:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I wonder if we could ever hope to achieve a level of honesty from the practioners so as to report something like this: "Master Li, who is thought of as a god or living Buddha by his disciples, claims that he and his Dafa are the only source of salvation for mankind during this period of Fa-rectification. He teaches that his Dafa (great law)is currently judging all beings and promises to turn his "Dafa disciples" into Gods if they meet the moral requirments of the Dafa and work to expose what he considers to be the evil Chines Communist regime." Doesn't that summarize a great deal of Falun Gong teahings? Do you want to expand it futher?


"Main" Buddha would probably be a more accurate term, whatever that means --Yenchin 00:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


If it's for the sake of a summary, you are still wrong. Obviously, the FLG people contend that you are misrepresenting what is central about their practice. You say it is about such and such, you provide contextual evidence and claim they are hiding their beliefs. But they, or in fact anyone who reads the texts can offer entirely different interpretations. That's the nature of the game. But it doesn't end there. In addition, they claim that it is to be understood in a certain way. This has more validity than your claims. How so? Take the early Christians. It is important what they say because they are the ones inside the movement. The FLG people are also inside the movement. They have more validity. Maybe enough editors out there on the Christianity page feel that summary you provided is good. But, it is also obvious that if I wanted to, or anyone else, we could offer a better summary based on such and such textual evidence. I also noticed that your summary above is very degrading, while the Christianity one is not. Whitemanners 03:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Falun Gong practitioners object to the edits I am introducing, but if you read the discussion all the way back for the last 4 months you will see that they have objected to almost every edit I have introduced. Yet my edits have remained because they are accurate representations of Falun Gong teachings and the Falun Gong practitioners know it. Are you a practitioner? The sad reality is that practitioners routinely deceive the public about their beliefs "at the higher levels" because their master demands it. Deception is a common characterstic of a cult. Christianity is not a cult, so Christians are comfortable saying that they believe Jesus saves and that he attoned for the sins of mankind. Falun Gong practitioners believe that Li and his Dafa save, but I challenge you to find a simple statment of that fact anywhere on a Falun Gong website. You won't, because Falun Gong's public image is carefully packaged to the western audience. You might try to claim that my interpretations are inaccurate, but time and again I have posted something, there's been an argument about it, and then comes an ackowledgment of its accuracy. One of the biggest sticking points, in fact, has been my assertion that Falun Gong is about salvation. To me this is a no-brainer because Li uses that word salvation repeatedly. If you read the above thread, you'll see that I introduced a quote from Li about how he has saved all his Dafa disciples from Hell. Here's the response that came from pratitioner Omido:
  • Yes, Master Li has saved all Dafa Disciples from hell, he has done the most compassionate deed.
There are two interesting aspects about Omido's response. First, he acknowledged the validity of what I had introduced in the discussion and, second, he somewhat defensively added that this is a good thing. Omido's defensive response is significant because I never said it was not a good thing that Li Hongzhi and his Dafa are offering salvation to mankind at this time. All I've ever said for these past four months is that I insist Wikipedia honestly report the teachings and practices of Falun Gong. So why the defensiveness? It's because Master Li has indoctrinated his disciples to engage in deception when talking about the Falun Gong to outsiders. It is not the fault of practitioners that they behave in this odd way, it is the fault of the master. And I ask you once again, are you a practitioner? --Tomananda 18:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS: You accuse me of having written a "degrading" summary of Falun Gong. Here's what I wrote:
  • "Master Li, who is thought of as a god or living Buddha by his disciples, claims that he and his Dafa are the only source of salvation for mankind during this period of Fa-rectification. He teaches that his Dafa (great law)is currently judging all beings and promises to turn his "Dafa disciples" into Gods if they meet the moral requirments of the Dafa and work to expose what he considers to be the evil Chinese Communist regime."

Since you have accused me of "degrading" the Falun Gong, would you kindly tell excactly what is "degrading" in this summary? Yes, it is longer than the one on Christianity, but surely that doesn't make it degrading. A Christian fundamentalist would have no problem summarizing their faith with words like: "Jesus attoned for all our sins on the cross. He was the Son of God and is the only hope for salvation for mankind." For some denominations, I could also add the belief in the second coming and how when Jesus returns the good souls will rise up to heaven to be with God. Are those words "degrading"? For many Christians, they represent the truth. --Tomananda 19:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why dont we concentrate on writing the article instead of what you think about falun gong? isnt this getting extremely out of context? How can you expect to make a neutral article if you dont even let us speak about what we the practitioners think that falun gong is? even from the first paragraph you just want to say that Li has promised all of his students they will be gods some day and that his so called "Dafa" is judging all sentient beings and whatnot. Surely thats what you think, but we dont agree to this. So why dont you let us do our job and you make up your own critics page, criticize all you want and let us work on what we need to work, you think you know so much about falun gong but thats not necessarily true, you just have a point of view about the matter and thats it, dont go thinking all you say is just a fact. In falun gong, master Li only says you can become a higher being due to your effort on cultivation, by trying to be a better person every day, by believing on truth, benevolence, forbearance. Being tolerant, just, benevolent, doesnt this make you a good person? doesnt this take an effort to accomplish? it is degrading to say the master is promising all the students they will be gods and saying all the dafa students are spared from hell. Andres: Here are some of the words from the Master which you say are degrading.--Tomananda 08:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • I told you early on that I removed the name of every single Dafa disciple from Hell's list. Every ordinary person is listed in that registry. I have removed the names of Dafa disciples from Hell's registry. I had their names removed from Hell. So your names are not there. In other words, you are not in any way beings of the Three Realms, and you are no longer ordinary persons. http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2006/4/1/2006_LA_Lecture.html

The fact that someone says he is a practitioner doesnt really make him a practitioner. Andres: Are you suggesting that Master Li might be fooled into removing the names of some of the Dafa discples from the Hell registry? What point are you trying to make here? What master li says is just that bad things will be eliminated and good things will be kept, whats so hard to understand? So then there is no Hell, no consumation, no salvation in Falun Gong teachings? Is that what you're saying...that it's only about the ethics? What nonsense!


the problem is you keep searching the masters readings to try and find a quote, take it out of its context, bring it here and criticize it, thats not good at all. Then, instead of trying to read what the practitioners post, you just try to block everything we do. I think the most appropriate approach is to make one daughter page completely dedicated to critics and let the main page to us, we are the practitioners so we know what it is about. So if the reader wants to know about the critics and controversies of falun gong ( and im sure almost everyone who reads the article will go there because they wanna see the other side of the story ) then they can click on the link to the critics page. One of you said "You guys saying that unbelievers aren't qualified to edit the article because we can't possibly understand how wonderful FLG is (or even Christianty is) is arrogantly, patronisingly dismissive and isn't going to fly. I, for one, am certain that I understand Li Hongzhi and FLG very, very well. I have the ears to hear what he is saying, to paraphrase Jesus. Add to that Li Hongzhi ordering his followers to publicly obscure his teachings and the above conversation makes perfect sense. You guys have to give up the attempts at conversion and accept that there are a lot of us who disagree with you no matter what and the article is going to reflect that. --Fire Star 火星 14:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)" Fine, do it on the critics part, how can you expect to expose your own point of view everywhere? even from the first or second pargraph or even from the core principles you want to criticize and you also have a critics and controversy subsection, so, where is our part? you dont let US work, where is our opinion? where is our clarification of the critics you made on the subsection for example? you are directly attacking falun gong over there and now you also want to attack it on anything we write?. So we cant do anything because you also wanna criticize it too? you know what? that "isnt gonna fly".

Andres, you are new to this article and may not realize that we have in fact worked together. No, the Falun Gong cannot dictate what goes on the main page. It is a joint effort. But at least we now have confirmation from you that you are a practitioner. From your comment above, it seems that you agree with Omido that Li's own teachings are "degrading". Frankly, I thought that practitioners are supposed to treat all of the Master's teachings with respect, and to call them degrading doesn't seem very respectful to me.
In my proposed edit below, I start with a statement about Master Li being thought of as a god or living Buddha by his disciples. Do you disagree with that? Do you think of Master Li as not being a god or living Buddha? After that statement, I summarize some of Master Li's teachings on the Dafa (it is judging all beings) and go on just to mention Fa-rectification and his promise to turn practitioners into gods. Do you disagree with that? Do you claim master has not said that? Do I need to produce the direct quotes? Do you really think these are my ideas?
  • "Master Li, who is thought of as a god or living Buddha by his disciples, claims that he and his Dafa are the only source of salvation for mankind during this period of Fa-rectification. He teaches that his Dafa (great law)is currently judging all beings and promises to turn his "Dafa disciples" into Gods if they meet the moral requirments of the Dafa and work to expose what he considers to be the evil Chinese Communist regime."
Andres, no mater how much you complain, this Wikipedia article will not be dictated by Falun Gong practitioners. We all will contribute and as Fire Star said "You guys have to give up the attempts at conversion and accept that there are a lot of us who disagree with you no matter what and the article is going to reflect that." So please, instead of all the complaining why don't we work together on this introduction, part of which I have proposed above. --Tomananda 07:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, one more thing: Did you really mean to refer to Li's Dafa as his "so-called" Dafa? Do you have another name for it or are you just joking? --Tomananda 08:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alot has been said here, so I won't respond to everything at this time. Tomanda, whenever you use your own words to describe Falun Gong, your very incorrect and distorted understanding comes through. I'm going to say something about your statement, "Master Li has indoctrinated his disciples to engage in deception when talking about the Falun Gong to outsiders." Master Li has done nothing of the sort. What Mr. Li has told us to do is to talk about the basics and fundamentals of Falun Dafa cultivation when introducing the practice to people. Yes, this means not talking about Fa-rectification. This, in fact, is the same way Mr. Li introduced the practice himself. The fundamental concept of Falun Dafa is cultivating your heart by assimilating to Zhen Shan Ren. So this was the focus of the earlier talks. Gradually, after practitioners could grasp this, he would introduce concepts and truths less central (of course, cultivation still held a central part at the same time). Such truths built on the wisdom and faith that practitioners had already obtained. They would have been very difficult to accept at the beginning, and even more difficult to understand clearly. Moreover, if they were introduced at the beginning they would have taken focus away from the most important thing, ie. cultivation. You don't teach calculus before long division, do you? Therefore, doesn't it make sense that practitioners stick to the basics when talking with people who don't know anything, or know very little, about Falun Gong? It's the same thing and it's only logical. Our Master has guided us with common sense in this instince. This has nothing to do with distorting any truth or decieving people. Would it make sense to talk about the concepts, of which one's own understanding has only been obtained after countless hours of study and that aren't even very central to the practice? Of course not. However, it also depends on the person. Some people indicate that they can understand a bit more, so sometimes one can go a little further with some people when explaining Falun Dafa principles. It's not some kind of rigid rule. I understand that the wikipedia page is different, but at the same time the purpose is the same; to give people an accurate and fair representation of Falun Dafa. Naturally, Fa-Rectification, given it's importance at this time will be mentioned. It's just a matter of how to include and clarify these kinds of things reasonably and responsibly. I have not been gaged and I am not trying to hide anything. Instead, I only wish to depict Falun Dafa accurately and fairly. Mcconn 08:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mcconn: Your description of how Master Li tells the practitioners to start with the basics and slowly introduce the material "at a higher level" is something I am totally aware of. It's by using this method the Falun Gong is able to recruit new members...people who are just interested in learning healthy exercises and wouldn't want to take on a new religion. But as you yourself say, Wikipedia is different. Even though I understand why you want the Wikipedia article to read like a Falun Gong recruitment pamphlet, we cannot allow that to happen. It must read like an enclyclopedia article which is very different. So when you say "we can mention Fa-rectification" your tone of voice suggests that you want to burry that, and the concept of Dafa judging all beings to some obscure portion of the text. Your goal here is to diminish the importance and prominence of the teachings "at a higher level" while my goal is to give them promininence because they are just that important. In fact, as you know, Master Li has stated that if all you did was practice the exercises you wouldn't be considered a cultivator. You must study and defend his Dafa in order to be considered a Dafa disciple, and defending the Dafa now means taking on the Chinese Communist Party. It is a requirment that you do this in order to reach consumation and become a god. Am I wrong in any of this? --Tomananda 18:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I deny what you think falun gong is, not what it really is, whatever you think you understand about it isnt necessarily the truth, please read what i write so i dont have to write it again. Ok, you want it to be a joint effort? then take down the critics and controvesy section, its completely partialized to your favor. So you come and say we should do things together but when it comes to your work you dont say anything do you?. Ok, lets do the article together but either you erase the criticism and controversy subsection or you let us answer your critics. And every paragraph that is going to speak good or bad about falun gong should say "Falun gong states.....but the critics say" "The critics state....but falun gong says" This way we can expose the point of view from critics and falun gong at the same time and at the same page. I dont want the readers to think we actually agree with what you think falun gong is, and this way we make it clear where everyone is standing, to me, its the appropriate way to structure the article. And yes, i am a practitioner, it is "confirmed".

--Andres18 12:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Andres: The Criticism and controversies section is, by definition, about Criticism and Controversies so that must be the focus of that page. Practioners can, and have, added points to refute some of the criticism, but the page still must focus on the criticism. For a model of this, see the Scientology Criticism page. There are many other pages which the Falun Gong has created and, for the most part, I have not gone into those pages in an attempt to add negative commentary all along. If I did, it would destroy the readability of the article. What we are talking about here is the main page, which clearly must be a joint project. --Tomananda 18:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Arent you contradicting yourself? we are talking about the critics and controversy section on the main page, not any other critics page you may have come up with. you said the main page is supossed to be a joint effort, thats a great idea, so you have two options, either you take it down or you let us expose our point of view on the section. Just look at the main page, does it really seem neutral to you?. Oh, by the way, here is a definition of controversy according to wikipedia, a verifiable source. "A controversy is an opinion or opinions over which parties are actively arguing. Controversies can range from private disputes between two to large scale disagreements." Where do we get to explain what falun gong claims on the critics and "controversy" section, is it really controversial? or is it just you and your friends directly attacking falun gong?. Well maybe you want to keep your section because you think its really cool, well, ok, keep it but then we get to make another section where we clarify your critics, but then the main page would turn into a very looong article wouldnt it? tell me what you think. --Andres18 00:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1st paragraph discussion

What is agreed so far

Falun Gong (Traditional Chinese: 法輪功; Simplified Chinese: 法轮功; Pinyin: Fǎlún Gōng; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: Faaluen Gong; literally "Practice of the Wheel of Law"), also known as Falun Dafa (Traditional Chinese: 法輪大法; Simplified Chinese: 法轮大法; Pinyin: Fǎlún dàfǎ; lit. "Great Law of the Wheel of Law") is a system of mind and body cultivation introduced to the public by Li Hongzhi in 1992.

What are the "central concepts?"

I think this might be easier if we stop working on the wording for a bit and decide what the central concepts are. So I'd like everybody to list what they think the two or three core principles are. No explanation, just a list. We can discuss after everyone's weighed in or 24 hours. And Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance count as one. CovenantD 20:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. Individual Cultivation: Truth-Compassion-Forbearence is central, the assamilation of Truth-Compassion-Forbearence and that only by following "Truth-Compassion-Forbearence", one can reach enlightment in Falun Dafa.

2. Fa-Rectification Cultivation: How practitioners always clarify the truth about the evil persecution of Falun Gong to the people of the world. How the past Dharma of the universe will be rectified, and because of this the most wonderful future is waiting for all beings. How everybody that persecuted Dafa will meet retribution, because they persecuted the Buddha-Law.

/Omido 21:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. The qigong-like exercises Li teaches

2. Li's spiritual and moral teachings (zhen, shan, ren; his other derivations from older Chinese religions; his insistence on inadequacy of those and all other belief systems relative to FLG, "Fa-rectification", xenophobic and homophobic statements, etc.)

3. Li Hongzhi's unique and central rôle in personally formulating and guiding the spiritual progress of FLG practitioners

--Fire Star 火星 22:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Assimilating the Fa (Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance) Simultaneously
  2. mind and body double cultivation
  3. Fa-Rectification Cultivation: cultivating in the process of resolving persecution.-- Fnhddzs 06:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

______

Here are the main points

  • Dafa “great law" is currently judging mankind.
  • It is weeding out "the dregs of humanity and the degenerate world" in a process called "Fa-rectification"
  • Li claims to be the only one who is offering salvation to mankind
  • Li promises to turn his disciples into gods if they follow the moral requirements of his fa (by assimilating Truthfullness, Compassion and Forebearance) and by exposing what he considers to be the evil regime in China. --Tomananda 08:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not much to add here:

  • Claims emphasising on "high level", causing "ordinary people" unable to understand or reason.
  • The Qi-Gong and its seemingly wonderful benefits.
  • Li teaching that he is the savior.
  • Li preaching about the end of days.
  • In a more generous way to say it, anything Li says.
--Yenchin 20:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adding a few more:

  • All human beings are sinners which is why they need the Master’s salvation.
  • The true cause of sicknesses is one’s sin (Li uses the term Karma). And the illnesses of true believers will be cured by the Master. --Samuel Luo 21:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

C'mon, Olaf, Dilip, Mcconn, Miborovsky, others. I'm not likely to listen to your objections if you can't simply state what you think the two or three central concepts are. CovenantD 21:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


  • Cultivation of Zhen Shan Ren while maintaining an ordinary, common life in society.
  • Fa Rectification cultivation (note: this is only something for the current period of time and isn't inherent in Falun Dafa cultivation)

Nothing, at this time, is more central than these. Anything else cannot be considered central in my opinion. Under normal circumstances, it would only be the first point, but because of this time period the second has taken significant importance as well. Sorry for not posting sooner. Mcconn 16:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Summation of central concepts

  1. Zhen, shan, ren (Truthfulness, Compassion and Endurance)
  2. Fa Rectification
  3. Li's role as saviour

Looking through the lists that were provided, would everybody agree that these three are the main, central concepts that should be in the lead section? (In addition to the ONE sentence that we've agreed upon.) CovenantD 13:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the list. That is what is in Zhuan Falun, after all... As an aside, most people are likely to think that Falun Gong are Li's qigong exercises and that Falun Dafa is the religion (that Li denies is a religion). --Fire Star 火星 15:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with list of Central topics above. Also, I think Fire Star is right in suggesting we differentiate Falun Gong (the exercises) and the Dafa (Li's great law) which simultaneously judges all beings and, together with Li, provides a means for salvation. --Tomananda 18:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the list. English spekers might not understand the differences between the term Gong and Dafa, but Chinese speakers know that Gong refers to exercises and Dafa refers to religious teachings. --Samuel Luo 20:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

...

Convenant, Central in Falun Gong is Zhuan Falun, even Master Li has said this, and also all practitioners knows this. Central to Falun Gong is not that Li is a saviour, in Zhuan Falun Master Li rarely speaks about himself. Maybe practitioners opinion is that Li is a saviour, but it is still not central in Falun Gong and Master Li does not want to speak about himself, he just want to teach pracitioners how to cultivate. So central to Falun Gong is: Individual Cultivation (Zhen-Shan-Ren), Fa Rectification-Cultivation (Clarifying the truth, exposing the persecution, sending forth righteous thoughts).

/Omido 13:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Omido, I'm getting very tired of being told what to think by you. Practioners may be compelled to go by what Li says, but that doesn't bind the non-practitioners. You've already given us your list. Now is the time for compromise and coming to agreement. If you can't do that, then Wikipedia is not the place for you. CovenantD 13:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This "central is Zhuan Falun" is pointless. It's like saying "The Bible is central to Christianity". Which means nothing for a person who wants to understand the religion. Unless you are suggesting to post the whole ZFL over here. (Again, isn't that what falundafa.org is for?) --Yenchin 14:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Agree with the list. That is what is in Zhuan Falun, after all... As an aside, most people are likely to think that Falun Gong are Li's qigong exercises and that Falun Dafa is the religion (that Li denies is a religion). --Fire Star 火星 15:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The term for "religion" (宗教;zongjiao) in Chinese has different connonatations than it does in English. Of course, the term is open for interpretation in any language, so go ahead and call it a religion if that's the way you see it. That doesn't make it a religion though. Mcconn 17:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly what Omido said about Zhuan Falun being central referred to the fact that only what is said and emphasised in Zhuan Falun is central. I don't agree that "Li as a savior" is a central concept of Falun Dafa. The fact that he has said this, I'm sure you can provide quotes, doesn't grant it centrality. Mr. Li has said a lot over the years, all of which is important for practitioners to know about, but it's not all central. I'd say what's central is that the only thing that is central is pure cultivation, "nothing but cultivation". As our Master has put it, it's the "Great way without form".

Actually, you know, Dafa is about cultivation only—Dafa has nothing but cultivation. And even though today the path of cultivation Dafa disciples take is different—in order to clarify the truth, to save more of the world’s people, to keep the persecution in check, and so on, some students have gotten together and started up media outlets or done this or that—none of that is part of Dafa itself. Those are cases of students walking their own paths validating the Fa, and those are things created by the students themselves. Teaching the Fa at the Meeting with Asia-Pacific Students

As I said, a great way has no form. No ordinary human forms are worthy of such a great Fa. So we manage things loosely and only look at people’s minds. If you cultivate, I will look after you. And this kind of care-taking is invisible to ordinary people, so it doesn’t have to take on any ordinary human form. Switzerland, 1998

I have imparted to you a broader, most ideal form of cultivation, for, "the Great Way has no form"! (Applause) Each of you is a part of society, belonging to different social strata, each having your own job or profession in society, and having your own skills that you have acquired. In each respective setting, under the guidance of Dafa and free of form, all are able to cultivate; there are no rules or regulations, no religious formalities, and no commandments.San Fanscisco, 2006

Mcconn 17:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mcconn: Your Master says the purpose of Dafa is to save people:

I am telling you now that Dafa belongs to me, Li Hongzhi. It is taught to save you and spoken from my mouth. “Awakening” (May 27, 1996) in Essentials for Further Advancement I

and he says only he and his Dafa can do it at this time

Why is it that a being needs to be saved by Dafa and me personally? Or to put it plainly [think about it] what kind of being is worthy of salvation by the Great Law of the cosmos? For a being who is saved, could it just be about personal Consumation? So what kind of being deserves to be a Disciple of Dafa? Would you say those people who hide in their homes and “study the Fa” do? Or those who only want to gain from Dafa but don’t want to give to Dafa? Furthermore, what about those who, while Dafa disciples are being persecuted, don’t want to speak up for Dafa yet still “read the book” at home and try t get things from Dafa—what kind of people are they? You be the judge. from: “My Version of a ‘Stick Wake-up’” (October 11, 2004) http://faluncanada.net/library/english/jw/jw041011_e.html

Nothing you have provided above contradicts the fundamental truth that Falun Dafa is presented as a means..in fact the only means...to save people during this period of Fa-rectification. --Tomananda 18:55, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with list of Central topics above. Also, I think Fire Star is right in suggesting we differentiate Falun Gong (the exercises) and the Dafa (Li's great law) which simultaneously judges all beings and, together with Li, provides a means for salvation. --Tomananda 18:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, cultivation is about salvation, it is about returning to one's orginal self, to return home to the wonderful place one came from. This has been thought in Zenbuddhism, Tibetan Tantrism, Christianity, Daoism, Pure Land and many many other cultivation schools. The goal of cultivation is to escape ordinary people's suffering etc. In that sense, Falun Dafa is about salvation.

ConvenantD, I understand that you are frustrated, and you say you are tired of being told by me, but let me ask you: If you are not told by me, then who are you told by? Do you really think I will let anybody put anything in the article just because I have to compromise? I don't care if it takes 100 years, I will make sure the article get's done in the right way. I will cooperate with others, I will understand others with Shan (Compassion) and I will never try to hide anything, but there is one point, and that is that I won't allow anybody put anything personal in this article, this article have to report factual things and it has to do it in the right way. Of course we practitioners knows the teachings best, because we are practitioners and we are reading the book and other speeches over and over again every day. Other people just read them once, but not practitoners, they always read them.

Personally I don't care a bit about what other people thinks about Falun Gong, in my opinion, what other think about Falun Gong can only affect themselves, it can't affect anybody else. Still, it is my reponsobility (because I am a practitioner) to make sure people knows about the truth of Falun Gong and not POV things. This is in fact Compassion for all sentient beings.

/Omido 19:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Omido: an enclylopedia article must be obejective and neutral. From what you keep saying, it appears you cannot be objective and neutral when it comes to editing the Falun Gong article. What is bothersome for me is that even though I rely on Master Li's own words, those words get attacked as my POV. In the above discussion, I was even accused of writing an edit which is "degrading" to the Falun Gong even though it was close to a verbatim summary of Master Li's teachings. Do you think it is degrading to report Master Li's teachings "at the higher levels" in Wikipedia? --Tomananda 19:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tomananda, neutral is exactly what I want. No I don't think it is wrong to report on Master Li's teachings, but one must be upright and not just take one sentence and misrepresent it. Don't you agree? /Omido 21:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the proposed language, which would come after the language on Tuthfullness, Compassion and Forebearance:
Master Li, who is thought of as a god or living Buddha by his disciples, claims that he and his Dafa are the only source of salvation for mankind during this period of Fa-rectification. He teaches that his Dafa (great law)is currently judging all beings and promises to turn his "Dafa disciples" into Gods if they meet the moral requirments of the Dafa and work to expose what he considers to be the evil Chinese Communist regime. --Tomananda 21:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why you're proposing yet more new language when we haven't even reached agreement on what should be in the 1st paragraph yet. Cart before the horse and all that... CovenantD 01:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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