Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Warcraft character articles

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Warcraft character articles

I am retracting this nomination as it seems to be spiralling towards a brawl. I doubt any good faith consensus can result from this discussion. I'll approach this from another angle later. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted your close. Nominators have no special rights to close an AfD after a second person has supported deletion, and this one seems to have been headed fairly close to a delete consensus when you changed your mind. --Aquillion 01:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, but I am then striking out all my comments as I do not support this nomination any futher. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 02:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Old discussion

This is a group nomination of a series of Warcraft character pages. My deletion rationale is as follows, in bulleted form but not necessarily in order of importance.

  • None of the characters are notable outside the Warcraft fandom. None of the articles provide a clue how to verify from reliable sources why the nominated characters are notable except as elements of the Warcraft plot.
  • There is already a page, List of Warcraft characters, that has encyclopedic summaries of all of these characters. One might argue that WP:FICT recommends splitting off articles on major characters to keep the list sized properly, but that does not obviate the need for individual notability of such characters.
  • Many of the character articles have long and detailed plot and biographical exposition. They skirt the boundary of game guide territory, although they are for the most part not instruction manuals (i.e., they do not say how to kill the mobs for phat loot). I think this amount of detail is wrongly placed in Wikipedia. The common epithet for such articles is gamecruft, i.e., information that is only of interest to fans of the game.

The information in these articles is freely (in the GFDL sense) available in a much more comprehensive form in WoWWiki, which I have linked using the legend "ww" for comparison purposes. Many of WP's articles are word-for-word duplicates of their WoWWiki entries (eg. Captain Placeholder), cite their counterpart on WoWWiki (eg. Hakkar the Soulflayer), or are completely unsourced (eg. Grom Hellscream). There is even a template, {{wowwiki}}, designed to help citations of WoWWiki easier. I should hardly have to point out that wikis do not qualify as reliable primary or secondary sources.

For precedents, see the following concluded AfD and the precedents therefrom.

Note: this AfD, if it achieves consensus either way, will become a strong precedent. Please carefully consider whether Wikipedia should contain unsourced (or improperly sourced) articles on individual NPCs, mobs, and "lore" entities of dubious notability in a MMORPG, or whether a summary article such as List of Warcraft characters suffices for our encyclopedic purposes.

— Kaustuv Chaudhuri 02:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Main Discussion

  • Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 03:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been added to the list of Warcraft deletions. Havok (T/C/c) 06:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Guess I'll be the first. First and foremost, wikipedia is not an indescriminant collection of information. It is not a game guide. Such things can be promoted and listed on other, more in depth websites, such as, in this case, WoWWiki. As its already word-for-word copies. Delete them all. We even have an interwiki link for it, wowwiki:. Add to that the nom's notes about verifiability. Is this interpreted material? If so its original research on wowwiki, and is not a good source for information here. Is it paraphrased from a game manual? Its copyvio then. I see so much wrong with this set of articles as a result. A list would be a much better place for this. --Kevin_b_er 02:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete individual articles, an annotated list might not be bad, but this level of detail is not necessary for a general encyclopedia and the distiction between cannon/OR and fan fic makes these kind of articles especaiily problematic for wikipedia.--Peta 02:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Find the examples of fan fiction and OR (material that has been interpreted and not directly stated in the games, manuals, books, or comics), and feel free to remove that material. That's different than deleting the articles. Also, AFD is not the right place to request a merge.JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a collection of information. also per well researched nom.--Ageo020 02:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Since the nominator has withdrawn all comments, please state your rationale for deletion or your comment may be disregarded. JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete I am reluctant to delete so many articles that are reasonably well-written, but it is complete Craftcruft and not of interest to anyone outside players of those games. Not an indiscriminate collection of information, etc. BoojiBoy 02:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reduce, merge all except major characters, or delete. theProject 02:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment AFD is not the right place to request a merge. JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a general principle, Strong Delete. If any of these are individually notable, I cannot possibly say, but I allow that a few could be. Applaud nominator for doing the work! - CrazyRussian talk/email 03:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Since the nominator has withdrawn all comments, please state your rationale for deletion or your comment may be disregarded. JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Sorry folks, this isn't a game guide. Is there a Warcraft Wiki? Maybe there should be one for stuff like this. RedRollerskate 03:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Please state how character articles constitute game guides. Also, the existence of the information on other wikis is not grounds for deletion in and of itself. JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete For god's sake it's just a game. You don't need to have bios on inanimate characters. --Xrblsnggt 03:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Read WP:FICT. Wikipedia is the place to have bios on notable inanimate characters.JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Geez, that made the Satchel Cohen hoax look like a piece of cake. Yanksox 03:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Self-promoter! :) - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Since the nominator has withdrawn all comments, please state your rationale for deletion or your comment may be disregarded. JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Delete per BoojiBoy although keep important characters if any of them are significant to the game such as main characters. --דניאל talk contribs Email 03:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. AFD is not the right place to request a merge.JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist separately: There are simply too many articles with too many different variables here for us to consider them all together. Some characters obviously need to be merged back to the list or another article (such as captain placeholder). Other characters are obvious keeps (such as Grom, Jaina, Uther Sargeras, etc).
    • Comment it would be better if you point out which characters are "obvious keeps" and why, so I can withdraw the nom for just them. I hardly think most, a majority, or even many of these characters are major characters. I personally have no taste for 49 separate AfDs on Warcraft characters. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 04:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Separate AfD's runs the risk of inconsistent outcomes. Propose subsections for those articles where a special argument may be made. - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Here is a list. Many of these characters are mentioned in various print publications apart from the games: Archimonde, Arthas Menethil, Balnazzar, Grom Hellscream, Gul'dan, Illidan Stormrage, Jaina Proudmoore, Kel'Thuzad, Malfurion Stormrage, Mannoroth, Medivh, Orgrim Doomhammer, Prince Kael'thas, Sargeras, Sylvanas Windrunner, Tichondrius, Tyrande Whisperwind, Uther the Lightbringer. And yes, separate AfDs do run the risk of inconsistent outcomes, but if you want to make a policy page, go make one and debate it and achieve consensus. Otherwise, you should delete an article based on its own indivudal merits, not merely because of an attempt to establish some sort of policy/precedent. --Hetar 04:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • All right, below are individual subsections for each of the 18 characters in your list. Please either add the reliable sources for notability of these characters to these articles, or list these sources in this AfD, comprehensively or article-by-article. This AfD is not an attempt to create policy; my note is merely a warning that the outcome will be cited as precedent. No extra policy or guidelines are necessary for this nomination, in my opinion. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 05:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Precisely my opinion. - CrazyRussian talk/email 05:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • As I said before, these articles deserve separate nominations so that they can be deleted or kept on their own merit, and not because someone wants to establish some sort of precedent. Also, it should be noted that we don't delete articles simply because they don't cite their sources, many articles are kept so that we can take the time and effort necessary to source them properly. --Hetar 05:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • I think you are misreading the nomination. That this AfD will be cited as precedent is a statement of what I expect will be the case, because of which I warn participants to carefully consider their votes. The reasons for the deletion were clearly specified in the nomination; nowhere have I listed establishing a precedent as a reason for deletion. As to unsourced articles, WP:V (from WP:RS) is a core policy here. The week long AfD process will give interested editors plenty of time to add support for the keep votes with proper sourcing, which will increase the objective quality of these articles independently of the outcome of this AfD. I suspect we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on the means used in this AfD, so let us agree to disagree as long as you accept my reasons for what they plainly state, not as a cover for a hidden motive. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 05:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Yet another baseless attack on gaming. Why not delete every single character from every single book, movie, tv show in history as well?Macktheknifeau 06:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. The entire Warcraft storyline should be one article. --Chris Griswold 06:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Coment And while we are at it, let us delete everything on Wikipedia associated with other major books, films, games etc. I could compile a list if you want, of every universe created that has articles seperate from the main story line article. Havok (T/C/c) 07:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Chris, I understand that you're heavily involved in editing comic book articles here on wikipedia. Would you support reducing every Superman character and every X-man onto one page? Because that's essentially what you're suggesting.JoshWook 17:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Non notable? I have no idea what you mean by that seeing as they are well known to over 6 million people who actually play WoW, not to mention the people who play Warcraft.. merging is out of the qestion as many of the characters are big articles. And they are all good articles, stating non notability seems to be the only weapon you deltionists have against these articles. As I have stated a billion times before, even if you don't see pressidence for notability, does not make it any less notable for everyone else who have even a remotly idea what this is. And also, they are here to educate people who want to know more about the Warcraft universe. If you want to delete these, I'll go on a AfD spree and nominate every article associated with The Lord of the Rings, Marvel Universe, DC Comics, The Simpsons and so forth. This is perhaps one of the silliest AfDs I have seen in a long time. Havok (T/C/c) 06:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note that this was not an indiscriminate list of all Warcraft character articles. See, for example, Thrall (Warcraft), which was not nominated because the article asserts that he is a main character, and my brief perusal of the articles in Category:Warcraft books convinced me that he was a major character. Please also note that notability is not the sole reason: amount of detail, and verifiability from reliable sources of the contents of the articles are others. If you want a good yardstick, compare Archimonde with Link (The Legend of Zelda series), a featured article on a video game character. Observe the amount of attention in the latter paid to citing a wide range of sources, and assertions of notability outside the Zelda fandom. I am willing to accept that some of the nominated (but not a majority or even a large portion of them) might meet the threshold of "major character", but short of becomming a seasoned Warcraft player overnight I have no way of verifying it. The articles certainly give me no clue how I might verify if some character is a major character or not. Of course, if you still choose to see this as an attack on gaming articles, i.e., a bad faith nom, then I am sure your opinion will be noted by the closing admin. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 07:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Umm... Archimonde is a major character.. And why do you AfD when you have no knowledge of the subject at hand? Shouldn't it be up to the editors who actually work on these articles to decide if they are verifiable or not? Deleting them won't give us any chance to state reliability, verifiability or even work with the articles. And yes, I do see it as a bad faith nomiation, because you state yourself that you have no knowledge of the subject. I have no knowledge about anything relating to LotR other then what I have seen in the movies, does that mean I can go and AfD every character bio on Wikipedia for that lore, stating "I have no knowledge of this, so therfor it must be right of me to delete them." Hiding behind WP:RS and WP:V is all good, but not if you have no chance yourself to state WHY the characters are not major. From the list you compiled I see most of them as major characters in the lore of Warcraft, which is also the reason they have their own article, and deleting them would be foolish. What you could have done instead of this AfD was to go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Warcraft and ask us to verify them before you nominate them, you could have started a dialoge with the community behind these article, and not just outright AfD them. Havok (T/C/c) 07:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • To be clear, I see no problem with you going through the list of LotR character articles and nominating the unsourced (or improperly sourced) and unverifiable articles on non-notable characters of interest only to LotR fans for deletion. If your nomination is well-argued, I will support it. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 07:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please keep in mind WP:POINT. Going on an "AFD spree" as you put it will likely result in it being labeled a bad-faith nom and a strong warning, maybe even a block. Just because these articles might get deleted doesn't give you the rationle to nominate every other similar article for deletion. Hbdragon88 07:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment If these articles are deleted on the basis that you don't find them to be anything major, it so absolutly gives me the right to do so with other "lesser known" characters, places etc. from other lores. This AfD for me will set precedence for other articles of the same type. If the nominator can state "I have no idea what this is about, but I feel myself that X, Y, Z, is not a major character and should therefor be deleted from Wikipedia." why can't I do the same? It's all in the eye of the beholder, he dosn't see this as anything major, but it is for many of us, and AfDing it in my book is just disrespectful if you have no grasp on the subject matter. Havok (T/C/c) 07:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment If you think this is a bad faith nom, report it at WP:AN. If if it is a bad-faith nom, the sysops deal with it, and let them punish him. Don't get yourself in trouble if the sysops agree with him and don't believe it's a bad-faith nom or if they decide that the decision is delete. So what if he isn't familiar with the subject matter? What, is owning the game and being immersed in the whole atmosphere a requirement now to edit and make informed decisions about the status of the articles? He should, as an outsider, be able to discern from the article why the subject of the article is notable, and if he can't, then it should either be reworked to make it notable or be deleted. He has chosen the latter path. Hbdragon88 08:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note these names appear in the Warcraft 3 game, not WoW, to my knowledge.--Paraphelion 07:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Many of them are mentioned in WoW aswell. And I did write both WoW and Warcraft. Havok (T/C/c) 07:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep IV : The Voyage Home Years from now a space-born relative of the humpback whale will return to earth and may ask for this information or else its ceaseless cries will destory our planet. It would bode well for the human race to have this kind of information all in one place.--Paraphelion 07:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restated I like the idea that a first time visitor to wikipedia might use the random page feature and it will bring up a bio about some obscure fantasy character that is longer than a bio for some nobel prize winners. That to me is the magic of Wikipedia and what it is all about.--Paraphelion 20:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all per well-researched nom. Sure is a terrible thing that no one seems to want to believe in WP policies and guidelines. Good luck with the whale thing. Tychocat 08:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Since the nominator has withdrawn all comments, please state your rationale for deletion or your comment may be disregarded. JoshWook 18:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment : Just because the nominator withdrew his comments why must everyone here who has stated they agree with the original nomination restate their rationale for deletion? Just because someone changes their mind doesn't mean everyone else who had similar notions has to confirm theirs.--Paraphelion 20:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The nominator did more than "change his mind" in this case - he was accused on multiple fronts of making a bad faith nomination. In that light, any votes that reference the nomination must qualify why they believe the articles should be deleted, aside from "per nom," when the nominator himself has expressed reservations about the AFD.JoshWook 21:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment However he did not admit to a bad faith nomination, as you of course know becasue as he states at the top, he removed his nomination merely because it became a brawl. Your threat to discount all votes unless they are restated is laughable.--Paraphelion 01:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

*Relist separately Someof these (like Grom Hellscream) are major characters. Some should be merged into something like List of minor Warcraft characters. This AfD has about zero chance of determining which is which. Ace of Sevens 08:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comment: as mentioned above, I have offered to withdraw the nomination of any characters that can be shown to be "major characters" using verifiable information. An unsourced summary of the plot as written by an editor doesn't count as evidence for notability, I am afraid. 49 separate AfDs will be killed outright as WP:POINT or something similar, and I certainly don't have the energy to tend to 49 separate discussions. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 08:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all A good number of these should be kept. If any need to be merged to a minor characters list, AfD isn't the place to handle it, but none should be deleted. Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) gives no basis for a deletion, only merge. Ace of Sevens 22:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, the fact that the articles are not currently sourced properly is no reason to delete them. The Warcraft universe is propably the most notable universe in computer gaming. Many published books have been written about this universe which could potentially be used as reliable sources. The nominator states that he has no knowledge of this topic and the thing to do here would have been to start a dialogue with the WikiProject, not dump everything in this AfD. This is just further evidence that there are many Wikipedians who look contemptuously at video game content and what they consider "fancruft". This is not fancruft, this is not "gameguide". If this had not been from a video game but from the Lord of the Rings or the Simpsons, this would never have been allowed to come this far: Ajaxfan 09:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Again, the reason is not solely verifiability. The characters have to be shown to be notable. Read WP:CRUFT. A notable character is not notable solely because of internal plot-related reasons. A fictional character must have real world notability. The character must be known outside the fandom. Currently I see no evidence of this as everything I have been able to find about a character such as Aegwynn, to take a random example, keeps revolving around the WoW fansites (or Wikipedia and mirrors). The published books you speak of are guides for the game, or novelizations of the game. Again I note the comparison to Link (The Legend of Zelda series), which I am increasingly coming to see as the ideal game character article. Is Aegwynn equally notable? Is Orgrim Doomhammer? — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Dude... WP:CRUFT is an essay not a guideline or policy. It cannot be used as the basis for an argument for deletion. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 10:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, and WP:CRUFT is not my sole rationale. Essays can be illuminating even if they are not policies or guidelines. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The nom has failed to assert a valid reason for deletion. I checked a dozen of the pages randomly I saw no use of WoWWiki as a reference, directly refuting a claim of the nom. The indiscriminate collection of information applies to lists, by the way. If anything should be a game guide a simple edit should suffice. In regards to sourcing video game characters, the games themselves are a source. If you wish to go as far as citation, I have created {{cite video game}}. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: I provided an example of a WoWWiki citations in the nomination. Hakkar the Soulflayer. You can go through the rest by yourself, I hope. The game, being a primary source, is only usable as a source for the plot. It doesn't qualify as a source for notability, which is a critical opinion of a character and requires secondary sources. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Does anyone even read WP:FICT before taking this route. To clarify Wikipedia guidelines specifically state "Major characters and notable minor ones (and places, concepts, etc.) in a work of fiction should be covered within the article on that work of fiction. If the article on the work itself becomes long, then giving such characters an article of their own is good practice (if there is enough content for the character)." Its the first point on WP:FICT. Its obvious the person nominating these has no knowledge of Warcraft lore to say Archimonde is not a major character or Illidan or Grom Hellscream Tichondrius, Uther or Kel'Thuzad, Arthas Menethil is so notable to lore there is a town named after him, this is obvious a bad faith nomination, and prescedence is going to lead to people nominating characters from Harry Potter and Da Vinci Code for deletion soon as the main characters there have articles written about them. How about the Sopranos? --zero faults |sockpuppets| 10:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Not only do I have no knowledge of Warcraft lore, I have no way to verify them except by becoming a dedicated Warcraft player. You are free to nominate unsourced (or poorly sourced) characters from Harry Potter that are non-notable and only interesting to Harry Potter fans for deletion. If the nomination is well argued, I see no reason not to support it. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment::That's the spirit! Come see me on the Argent Dawn server when you have a few hours to spare and I will take you through a quick tour of highlights in WoW which will assure you of their importance in the game. It would go a long way to covering my in-game expenses if you could buy a about 50 gold from a reputable outfitter such as http://www.dgamesky.com/.--Paraphelion 10:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment You sir are wrong again, as per point 2 in WP:FICT, which I am asking you now to read. "Non-notable minor characters (and places, concepts, etc.) in a work of fiction should be merged with short descriptions into a "List of characters." This list should reside in the article relating to the work itself, unless either becomes long, in which case a separate article for the list is good practice. The list(s) should contain all characters, races, places, etc. from the work of fiction, with links to those that have their own articles." So in any case this should never have been put up for deletion as it should have been put up for merging if you feel they are non notable minor cahracters. This AfD should be closed, its breaking the very first two rules that deal with Fictional characters. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 10:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Characters in the Sopranos routinely engage in acts of bad faith.--Paraphelion 10:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep per WP:FICT. I personally think World of Warcraft is crap, but this kind of nomination is silly: deleting every article here would justify cleaning out tens of thousands of other fiction-related articles from TV series, movies, and the like simply because they "weren't notable enough in the real world." While one has to take notability into account when keeping or deleting articles, this kind of deletionism is not going to get Wikipedia anywhere. If you want to merge some of the less notable characters, clean out the unverified information so that the articles are short enough to merge, don't ask AfD to do it for you. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 10:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and condense into a single list bar any major characters. Combination 10:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment For everyone's convenience I will post the appropriate WP:FICT policies here with emphasis added:
    • Major characters and notable minor ones (and places, concepts, etc.) in a work of fiction should be covered within the article on that work of fiction. If the article on the work itself becomes long, then giving such characters an article of their own is good practice (if there is enough content for the character).
    • Fiction includes books, TV series, films, computer games and roleplaying games, and possibly other sources.
    • Major characters from major works deserve their own article.

— Dark Shikari talk/contribs 10:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep all. If someone wants to take on the task of merging these then they don't need to do it via afd. Otherwise these are more than notable enough to be kept, as far as fictional universes go. —Xezbeth 10:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep If we have pages for every single Pokémon (more than 300), then we can certainly have pages for all Warcraft characters, they are far less than those cute little monsters... Shandristhe azylean 14:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep Warcraft is not just "WoW". World of Warcraft is just a game based on the long established universe that is Warcraft. The legacy of Warcraft is akin to many other works, such as Tolkien's Middle Earth. Warcraft spawns books, video games, board games, clothing, and other things related to the fiction works. To say all the character profiles should be removed is ridiculous.--Ndrfx 05:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: section on individual challenges moved to talk.
  • Keep - Should a bunch of these be merged together? Yes. Is that something for AfD? No. Nominating 30 articles at a time never works out well. There's no way to go through and say this one is notable, that one isn't, etc. Trying to set a precedent by nominating a mass of articles is almost WP:POINT. --PresN 15:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Once Kaustav's comments are gone, I don't see how this discussion could possibly have been considered to be "heading fairly close to a delete consensus". If these articles are simply deleted, then it opens the door to deleting pretty much every fictional character from wikipedia. This is a compilation of the major and supporting characters from an extremely notable video game series; the precedent this would set would be chilling. We might as well say goodbye to Harry_Potter_(character) and Luke_Skywalker, if fictional characters are not worthy of the attention of wikipedia. WP:FICT is pretty clear - major characters get their own pages, and minor characters should be merged into a list. And yes, video games fall under those guidelines, unless we want to have a discussion on if video games are an inherently inferior medium. Even if some of the characters in this AFD are believed to be relatively minor, AFD is NOT the appropriate medium to debate their notability relative to one another in preparation for a merge. That can be done elsewhere. If the quality of the articles is a problem, then please, help fix them - but there's no reason to set a precedent of deleting every fictional character from wikipedia. JoshWook 17:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - many of the characters are also part of Wc3 which does not have its own wiki and therefore a delete would cause all information about these characters to be lost from people only interested in Wc3 and not WoW. eventine 17:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Even more bleak is the prospect of people only interested in WC3 and not WoW and not Wikipedia - the information would be totally lost to them as well. If only we could somehow find this demographic and ensure they are made aware in some other way.--Paraphelion 20:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I feel that the fiction represented by these characters and the universe in which they reside is notable enough for them to merit their own articles. I'm sure there's a legitimate reason, but I find it interesting that some people on Wikipedia strongly consider many computer game articles as 'cruft', even while other people have found the means to make Bulbasaur a featured article.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that I, a very long time ago, worked on several Starcraft-related pages which were later deleted. I wasn't too happy about that, but I completely understand that 'Starcraft battlecruiser' (for example) is probably comfortably in that obscurity/cruft zone. I cannot say the same for the character pages nominated here. AustinZ 03:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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