Talk:Byzantine Empire/Archive 7

Archives

08/2003–08/2006

08/2006-10/2006

Alexios, heroism and the thrill of Byzantine history

I hate to come across as though I'm denigrating the Komnenoi's achievements. They were indeed heroic. But it's no good us just saying so. We need to conform to policy by providing citations and adhereing to the neutral point-of-view policy. I myself find the dynanism, constant struggle, and intrigue of Byzantine history endlessly fascinating, but we're here to take readers through the primary and secondary sources, not to write the book ourselves. Slac speak up! 02:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's desirable to cite our sources as much as possible; however it's not always easy to find the time to do this. Nevertheless, I will provide an inline citation for the specific section you have mentioned immediately. Bigdaddy1204 10:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I repeat for the umpteenth time that pumping the article with Komnenean stuff is objectionable. It may be considered a form of tendentious editing. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 10:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

If you are worried about providing an equal number of citations for other sections as well, then you are welcome to add them yourself. However, that is not my sole responsibility. We are all in this together, so work should be shared. You can't expect me to provide citations for the entire article singe handedly. I will focus on citations for the Komnenoi; it is what I have been asked to do, and it is the area to which I am best qualified to add citations. If you are worried that the text of the article provides insufficient detail on other periods of the empire's history, then again I encourage you to rectify this by adding more detail yourself. I have already called for more detail to be added to the 'Golden Age' section. As of today, considerable contributions and improvements have already been made in this section by Attilios; but I don't see any improvements done by you. Why don't you lend a hand and do some of the work yourself?Bigdaddy1204 10:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Bigdaddy, you seem to ignore my point. The length of the article is already a problem, and you propose to expand it even further? Currently, the article is about 121 kilobytes long. According to WP:SIZE, it should be four times smaller. Therefore, I propose to reduce it to the recommended 32K and split the redundant data (particularly about the Komnenoi) into a separate article, entitled Byzantine Empire under the Komnenoi Dynasty, etc. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 11:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

We already have a Komnenoi article where this information would be more appropriate. Adam Bishop 13:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Who gives a @#%$ about the number of kilobytes? Honestly, there are far more important things to think about. This article is currently one of the best sources of information on the Byzantines anywhere on the web. I am frequently praised for my work on Byzantine topics, especially this article. I had someone leave a message on my user talk page today, thanking me for my "Excellent Contributions". This article is helping to correct the horrendous anti-Byzantine bias that still exists in western culture. If you go ahead with your plan to split the article, everything I have worked for will be undone, the article will be ruined, and this excellent resource will be lost.

Before I started work on this article, it was utterly inadequate as a history of the Byzantine Empire - there was no information on the golden age under the Macedonian dynasty, the problems of the empire were signed away in about two sentences, the Komnenian restoration was ignored completely, and there were no maps between 550 and 1204. As for the coverage of the Fourth Crusade and after, it was a jumbled and poorly written mess. I don't expect you to thank me for all I have done, but the fact is that this article would be an embarrassment to wikipedia without my contributions. You don't think so? I guartantee that if you reverted it today to the way it was before I made my first edit, it would immediately lose its featured article status. I appreciate that it needs more citations, and I was planning to work on this today. But there is more to a Featured Article than just the number of references it has.

Now, it seems plain that you want to relocate some information. Personally, I think that the more detailed the article is, the better. If I had my way, I would get the entire article up to the same level of detail that the section on the Komnenoi currently gives. And it would be the best article on Byzantine anywhere on the web. But it seems you will never allow this to happen.

The problem with moving sections elsewhere is that somebody has to write a condensed summary of the information that was moved to replace it. Anything less is not good enough. I for one find this task deeply distasteful. I assume the sections in question are under 'Twelfth Century Renaissance'. Nothing else should even be under consideration.

You'd never get the article to 32k even if you removed these sections entirely and replaced them with nothing. To reduce the article to 32k you would have to absolutely ruin the entire article and reduce it to a pathetic sham of a history. This will not happen. Bigdaddy1204 17:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:OWN. Adam Bishop 17:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Damn right I feel strongly about this article. I wrote over 9,000 words of it myself, and created 5 new maps to accompany the text. How much did you contribute? And furthermore, it says on that page that "it is still important to respect the work of your fellow contributors. When making large scale removals of content, particularly content contributed by one editor, it is important to consider whether a desirable result could be obtained by working with the editor, instead of against him or her - regardless of whether he or she "owns" the article or not."

Suggesting that the article be reduced to 32k is not remotely reasonable, nor does it "respect the work" that I have put into it. We are not talking about making a few minor changes here or there, we are talking about utterly destroying all my work. This is not reasonable.

Like I said, I don't mind you moving 'Twelfth century Renaissance'. But anything more than that is anathema to me. Bigdaddy1204 17:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Bigdaddy1204 17:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, see, this is why I pointed you to that link. It's not your article, even if you write a billion words. And what have I contributed? I wrote pretty much the entire article before you even knew Wikipedia existed. But that is irrelevant. Would it help to remind you that the kind of people who read Wikipedia do not have the attention span to read 100 KB of text, nor even 32 KB? Your 9000 words have most likely been read only by you. If you want to be patted on the back for your essays, perhaps Wikipedia is not the best place to write...now, before you call me Hitler again, let me just say that is simply a reminder to be humble, and to remember who your audience is. Adam Bishop 18:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, getting hot in here. I've not the inclination to dispute nor the stomac to argument at the moment. I would hope that my past actions and tenure will hold me up where my following opinion may let me down. Time is short, therefore I shall regretfully be blunt: Wikipedia is a source of knowledge based upon the collective volunteer work of dedicated editors. Its mission ot help enrich the culture of fellow wikipedians and visitors. As such their needs often take precedence over our own zeal. The guide line of 32k being one of those, as some browser softwares do not stomac well larger work loads. As well, the uninnitiate may be discouraged from undertaking the reading of a massive article. That is why Wikipedia has a marvelous system of links. One article need not hold all the eggs in one place. The Byzantine Empire acticle, considering the massive importance and duration of its subjet is one of those articles that must be consise rather than precise, to be more easily distributed to the widest audiance. From here, large precise and detail article are to be created and connected, such as the Army and Organisation pages have already done or are presently doing.--Dryzen 17:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I can see that it would be possible to move sections such as economy and art etc to different pages. But how does one break up the history of the Byzantine empire? It was a long and proud history. I don't see how having a page entitled 'Justinian's empire' and then another entitled 'golden age' etc will contribute anything. It will just give a disjointed and nonsensical view of the empire. If you cut down the article to the bare bones, it is frankly boring. People are not going to bother to visit other aspects of the empire if the Byzantine Empire page is dull, dull, dull! like it once was. This whole discussion disgusts me. Splitting up the history of the empire would be a grave mistake, as would condensing it to the point of irrelevance. Bigdaddy1204 18:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Bigdaddy, your work on the article is appreciated, but you don't own it, right? Bias or not, the FARC guys will FARC it as soon as they spot it, just based of its abnormal size. What was its size when the article was promoted? Perhaps we should return to that length. Let's look at the other articles. Russia (the largest country in the world) is 49K and I'm constantly being told that it should be cut to 35K. There is no lack of Indian contributors in Wikipedia but they keep India at 44K.

You should understand that we can't say all we know about Byzantium in one article. It would take volumes. Your concerns that your work will be lost are not valid. Take a look at History of Russia: each section has a main article of its own, where all details are split. For instance, Russian history, 1796-1855 or Muscovy. From there you pass to more detailed subjects, such as the Time of Troubles, etc. This is how Wikipedia works, as opposed to a paper encyclopedia. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 06:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As a member of the Wikiproject history of Greece who pointed out that this article may soon face FARC (check Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History of Greece#Feautured articles needing citations and our contribution) I think I can interfere. The length is a problem, but not the most serious one. Now there are FAs with more that 100 Kb. And it is wrong to count the total Kbs of an article. It is better to count the kbs of the proe. I agree with Ghirla that the article needs improvements, but I disagree with this insistance on the length. I also don't like Bigdaddy's attitude. This article is not an ownership of his. He must understand it. I'll make my concrete propositions in the next section as Bigdaddy has proposed.--Yannismarou 07:16, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Bravely getting nowhere

I can see from the above discussion that we are bravely getting nowhere with this issue. I have no desire to continue getting involved in a discussion that involves personal attacks or anything of that sort. I have stated my position, as have all. It now falls to us to come up with a practical solution for the article.

I propose that the text under 'twelfth century renaissance' be moved to 'Komnenoi'. I request no other changes be made. Respond here, or hold your peace. Bigdaddy1204 22:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm... I don't this is the right attitude. Bigdaddy1204 your article on Manuel Comnenus is one of my favorites and as a Greek I really appreciate your contributions to articles about Byzantine history. But you don't own these articles! They are not your articles. Try to understand that and show some respect to those you have a different opinion. Just respect the right to have a different voice not their opinions themselves.

"Twelfth century renaissance" is not the only part needing imrovements. This article needs a huge range of improvements, such as:

• Length: It is 121 Kb. Because of its broad subject, it can remain big, but somewhere around 100 kb. The prose itself cannot be more than 65-70 kb. Nowadays, when they see in FAC a prose of more than 55-50 kb, they break out in pimples! How can we achieve that? By creating sub-pages! Easy! For instance, don't delete "twelfth century renaissance". Just make a summary of it here and create a new sub-article. Most section of the article don't need deletion! Create sub-pages and limit the length of the long sections. Do that with:

• "The fall of the Byzantine Empire",
• "Early history" (create an article "Early history of the Byzantine empire"),
• Shrink "Age of Justinian I". There is a seperate article for him! We don't need all this stuff here!
• Shrink "Komnenian dynasty and the crusaders". Transfer most of this stuff in Komnenos.
• Get rid of "The Komnenian army". Merge it with the new summarized "Komnenian dynasty and the crusaders".
• Create a sub-page for "Twelfth century 'Renaissance'". Possible name: Twelfth century 'Renaissance' of the Byzantine Empire.
• Get rid of "Why did the empire fall?". Transfer its main content in the new sub-article "The fall of the Byzantine Empire" and have a summary of it in the shrinked section "The fall of the Byzantine Empire" of this article.

• Citations: This is a huge problem. No citations! We must do something about that now.
• See also: Awful section! What is this long list?!!! Most of these links should be incoroporated in the main prose. See also sections are not in fashio any more. It would be nice if could throughly get rid of it.
• Bibliography: What is that exactly? Further reading? Then it should go after references.

These are just some remarks. I hope we'll go along here. Otherwise, if we donot reach a consensus, I will move this article to FARC (I haven't done it yet, because I really want the article to keep its star) and then there will be no other way but co-operation. I hope we'll not need that. Cheers!--Yannismarou 07:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting, Yannismarou. So you want to create lots of new articles, which contain much of the information currently in this one. I have been accused of being overly protective of this article. Perhaps you are right. But this is because I did not want all my work deleted, which was what seemed to be suggested in the earlier discussion.

Now your plan to create many smaller articles offers a more constructive approach. You have explained clearly what new articles will be created, and this has convinced me that there is no need to argue anymore. You have said "Most section of the article don't need deletion". If the work will be moved to sub articles, which will then be linked into the main one, then nothing is lost; if nothing is lost, then there is no problem.

I do have a few minor thoughts on the new articles; you have said "Shrink "Komnenian dynasty and the crusaders". Transfer most of this stuff in Komnenos." I think that the text might not fit in Komnenos so well. Maybe a better idea would be to create a new article called 'Byzantium under the Komnenoi', or something like that. Then "Komnenian army" could be merged with this.

I thank you for your helpful explanation of this issue, which has helped move this discussion forward and provided a good solution. Bigdaddy1204 08:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I also hope to find some time to help in this article. Something difficult during this period, because of my heavy schedule. But I'll keep a close eye on the article.--Yannismarou 08:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

And I have no problem with an article "'Byzantium under the Komnenoi', or something like that". Like you I'm an editor who hates deletions of information. That is why, I believe that sub-articles are the most creative solution in these cases.--Yannismarou 08:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have created a new article, Byzantine civilisation in the twelfth century, which contains all the information from the section 'twelfth century renaissance'. I have also provided a link to the new article in Byzantine Empire.

I will now condense the information into a brief summary, which will replace the old section 'twelfth century renaissance' at Byzantine Empire. Bigdaddy1204 17:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Try this summary to have some inline citations. In this way your new section will be Ok with FAC criteria and further major interventions in this particular section will not be needed.--Yannismarou 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes I am doing this - you will see that the new sections have citations. I have also deleted 'Komnenian army', replacing it with a brief summary under 'Military reform.' I have provided a link which says

Main article: Komnenian army

. These changes have reduced the size of Byzantine Empire to 116k. Bigdaddy1204 18:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me strongly argue against arbitrarily cutting the article down. Comprehensiveness is a requirement of featured articles. Length is not. I've had to deal with objections of length from CVG featured article pushes, and this issue has frequently come up. The subject defines the length of the article, not a one-size-fits-all limit. Here's a good example: Ketuanan Melayu (FA Nom). It was opposed multiple times for length and correctly passed for meeting comprehensiveness. If a section is of vital importance to reader comprehension of the Byzantine Empire and its contribution to the history of humanity, keep it. Determining what is vital is up to you, but be careful with the hedge trimmer. --Zeality 18:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Ketuanan Melayu is 101 kbs (not 120 kbs - there is a huuuuuge difference!) and it passed after more than a month of debate if I'm not wrong. This article is 120 kbs. And something else: You speak about Melayu who passed; what about Nagorno-Karabakh War that failed partly because of its lentgh (Overall 101KB, of which 76KB is prose) and the lack of sub-articles? I also agree that content is more important than length. But 120Kbs is toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. Melayu passed with difficulty; this article as it is now wouldn't pass and wouldn't survive FARC! Trust me! And something else: This article has very few citations right now. Melayu is 101 Kb with how many citations? 183! I repeat: 183!!!!! Imagine this article with the current length and, in addition, with about 200 inline citations. We'll get over 130 Kbs! This is the problem. Right now, I have in mind not only the current length, but also the length, when the citations will be added. That is why we should shrink a bit the article (to get it about 100-105 Kbs) without deleting information. Nothing is lost! Somebody who wants more information can go to the sub-articles. That is why they exist.--Yannismarou 07:21, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The 32K limit has seemed far too short to me for some time. It was a limit set at a time of much more primitive browsers, and much fewer high speed internet connections. If one looks at other encyclopedias, articles on important topics go on for a long time. The current focus on 32K articles means that articles on big topics tend to suck. But, there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done about it. 32K it is, and 32K it shall ever be. john k 11:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

32 kb limit belongs to history. Now we are speaking about surpassing or not the 100 kb limit!--Yannismarou 13:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

One still has to mind the principle of it. Jimbo does not have a crystal ball that says, "all articles can be covered at or under 100 kb." I'm not saying we should keep the article as it is, but I'm cautioning hasty removal of material just to satisfy an arbitrary limit. --Zeality 15:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I am considering removing right now is the section 'why did the empire fall' at the end. I will not be removing anything else unless people are completely agreed that it should be so. I will not repeat my views on whether the article should be reduced in size. However, I will say that I agree that we should avoid cutting as much as possible. To me, 100k sounds far more reasonable and practical than 32k.

I think the principal areas that should be looked at with a view to cuts are those at the end of the article, which are not part of the continuous narrative running from 306-1453. There are 2,900 words down there which could be reduced. Bigdaddy1204 16:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I have just cut down the section 'why did the empire fall', created a new article called 'Decline of the Byzantine Empire', providing a link to it here. I have also provided citations for the entire section on the Komnenoi, from the accession of Alexios right through to 'twelfth century renaissance'. After these changes, Byzantine Empire is now at 114k. Bigdaddy1204 17:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the most important task is to add the missing inline citations throughout the article. Then, we'll see if there is anything else needing cutting. I hesitate to add any citations of my own, although I have sources, for two reasons: 1) Bigdaddy is more devoted than me to the article, 2) I don't want to give the impression that I promote my own bibliography. Bigdaddy, I suggest that you get primarily occypied with this task from now on: the addition of citations and the cleaning of "Bibliography" as I had suggested previously. If my contribution is needed I am eager to assist.

Oh! And, by the way, Bigdaddy, since this is a FA, when you citate a printed sources, you must always mention the page number.--Yannismarou 12:03, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

While I have added as many citations as I can, I do not feel that it would be right for me to add citations to the sections that I did not write. Specifically, I am talking about:

• 1 Name of the Byzantine Empire
• 2 Identity, continuity, and consciousness
• 3 Origin
• 4 Early history
• 5 Age of Justinian I
• 6 Fight for survival

Since Adam Bishop has claimed that he wrote these sections, I feel that he should provide the citations for them. Bigdaddy1204 18:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, that's not exactly what I said :) There were many intermediaries between me and you! Adam Bishop 19:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Guys, we can agree who will add the citations. This is not a major problem. If Adam has no problem with it, then Bigdaddy can also add some citations in these sections. Or you can co-operate. If you want my assistance, I can also do some referencing. But I donot want to be regarded as promoting a specific bibliography.--Yannismarou 19:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Not wishing to be overly argumentative, I nevertheless feel the following quotation fits nicely here: "I wrote pretty much the entire article" - Adam Bishop 18:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC).

But to the point - I request assistance from Yannismarou and Adam Bishop with the citations for the sections I have listed. Bigdaddy1204 00:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

As a stylistic point, when someone purposefully misquotes another person, they usually replace the missing words with an ellipsis. Anyway, what I meant was, I worked a lot on this article back when I was a fresh-faced noobie just like you, not that I am responsible for the current text. (And my method at the time was collecting facts from the articles about the emperors, such as they existed at the time. My major source was Treadgold, if anyone wants to go through it picking out what might still be relevant to the current article.) Adam Bishop 00:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are right I should have put ellipsis in there, but two pints of lager and a packet of crisps was coming on the TV so I just copied the words in quickly.

Anyway, I request that you and Yannismarou sort out the citations for the sections I listed earlier. You know better than I what sources were used to write them, and I don't see why I should have to do everything myself, especially as it's not my article. ;) Bigdaddy1204 00:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• Move the Identity, Continuity & Consciousness and Name of the Byzantine Empire to their own article called Byzantine Identity. This would free up a lot of space and maybe get rid of a lot of the edit wars. Roydosan 11:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

hmm I leave for a few days and bam! Huge discussion with pertinence ot the article's future. I'm glade to see that things have progress for a rather engrained argument to a more open constructive form. As youselfs have already mentioned the 32k is lacking in its modernity, few FAs ralely lie below the 80K much less the 32K. With the possibility of repeating certain sentiments mentionned above, here are my own thoughts on the matter. Information though should not be deleted rather boxed up for shipment to another article, as seems to have become the concensus. All sections should keep a mesure of text. From the looks of things our current presentation follows a chronological format, with a finishing summery of the empire's demise and lasting influence? In this case I would beleive it preferable to attmept at a normalisation of section size. The Justinian I and the dual Komnenian sections are taking the show from the extensive history of the Byzantine empire. To the neophyte, the empire fell with the Fourth crusade and the 200 years Palaiologos rulership but an inconscential Dead cat bounce. Bigdaddy1204's work on the post Manzikert dynasty is an excellent piece yet it bloats the article on its information. In the conclusion, we should approach the article with the same stratety on its entirety. Either all great blocks of knowledge or overviews of to be made or made sub-articles. Of wich in sight of a overly massive Byzantine empire article, shortened sections could be the best methode to utilise. --Dryzen 15:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we should aim for all sections to be equal (although I admit that this may not always be possible, due to the lack of sources on the 'dark age' period). My personal preference was to make all sections equally detailed. This was what I had planned to do. But the consensus seems to be that we should be aiming to make this article somewhere in the region of 100k in size. Therefore as you can see I have cut down the Komnenian section to make it more equal to the others, reducing the size to 114k, last time I checked.

I have not cut down the Justinian section; that was not my work, so I will leave it to others to perform this task, if they think it is necessary.

Right now I aim to have a map of 476AD added to the article as soon as possible (see discussion below). After this, I will wait. Bigdaddy1204 17:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

If you don't like it that's okay with me...

Language divisions within the Byzantine Empire c.560AD.

  Greek

  Greek and native

  Latin

  Latin and native

  Aramic

  Coptic

  Caucasian

Western and eastern Roman empires, c.476 AD.

  Eastern Roman Empire

  Western Roman Empire

Hello, editors of that article which is titled "Byzantine Empire". I have made a new map. I like it very much, but you others may in time be found to hate it, so I thought to discuss it here rather than being bold on an article such as this, an article that has become featured. I apologize if I'm being too brash in taking even this action, for I would not like to inflame those intellects which are currently focussed on the more pressing concerns of citation and summarization. Working from the map in Cyril Mango's "Byzantium" on pages 14-15, (that is, stealing from said map) I have made another map working on exactly the same thing. Namely, the divisions of language in Justinian I's empire. If, for any reason you find the image objectionable in any way ("Cyril Mango, though working from primary sources, is a popular historian"; "the image is ugly, and you should not quit that job which you work on in the day"; "we're very busy and don't like you bothering us while we're working!") you don't have to use it. I just thought I'd offer it up for evaluation and possible use.

Good luck to you fellows in all your endeavours! Geuiwogbil 03:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the map. I am thinking perhaps it would fit nicely in the article that Roydosan has proposed - identity of the Byzantines. It reveals something about Byzantine identity - the diversity of its languages. Good job, Geuiwogbil! One more thing. Would you be interested in making a map to show the Byzantine empire in 476AD? I feel that such a map would be useful, since at the moment the maps of the article give the impression that the empire started with Justinian... Bigdaddy1204 12:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You mean something like this? Geuiwogbil 23:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The administrative divisions of the Roman Empire in 395, under Theodosius I.

Boundaries of the western and eastern Roman empires c.395 AD.

  Eastern Roman Empire

  Western Roman Empire

Just a further question: should the Latin in the language map link to Vulgar Latin, Medieval Latin or Latin? Geuiwogbil 23:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Tell me, did you do these maps yourself or are they from another site (if they are then prepare to provide an authorisation of the owner of the originals site)? Are you interrested in making more maps (for example of the Roman empire)? Flamarande 00:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I did make these maps myself, and yes, I have granted Wikipedia the authority to use them for any purpose. I'm a very unreliable person, so I don't think anyone asking me to make maps would find them finished. ^_^ Geuiwogbil 00:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, let me try... Could you please make a map showing the "divided Roman empire" (after the death of Theodosius I in AD 395), with the Western Roman empire in red, and the Eastern Roman empire in purple? Nothing really fancy or complicated, but if you know how, you could make them over modern borders in white. I am only asking you because I don't know how to do any maps at all. Flamarande 00:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There's this image, but you're probably familiar with it already. I'm not sure I could do any better, though. My borders, particularly in the Balkans, are really quite unruly. Thanks for asking, though. We have a Wikiproject Cartography or somesuch that could probably help. Geuiwogbil 00:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I knew that image and to be frank it is simply too complicated. I need a simpler image in the fashion of the images you provided. Flamarande 00:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is your image! (I have made it in the image of you!) Hope it suits your purposes, though, as I've said, the borders are still futzy-fresh. Geuiwogbil 01:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Bloody hell. That was quick. It seems acurate to me (but then I am not really a profesional). Thanks, mate. I am going to use it in Western Roman empire. Might I make similar requests in the next days (not today, I am not interrested in getting on your nerves) ? Flamarande 02:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm quite tired. :P I've made 3 maps in about 24 hours, so I think that's enough for a while. Maybe ask me on Friday, though you'd have to provide something to work with. Really, you should be asking the playas over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Maps. They're like professionals. Geuiwogbil 02:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

A few notes: The Danube frontier needs to be realigned to match the Romania-Bulgaria border. I should work on that tonight. Also, some quite helpful individual brought up the conspicuous absence of Aegyptus and the lower Levant from the AD 476 map, so I'll fix those tonight. I'll see what I can do for the borders of the language map in the Balkans, which seem in somewhat worse shape, tonight as well. Geuiwogbil 11:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yup, definitly missing. Basic and understandable, very good for wikipedia, good job Geuiwogbil. If you dontm ind my asking what are you using for the maps? Layers, software and hte such?--Dryzen 14:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Photoshop 7.0. I select all of the seas with the magic wand and copy them onto a new layer, and then just paint in the boundaries by hand on the lower layer using one of the brush tools. For the national boundary map overlay I took the original blank map's edited image with boundaries, compressed it to fit on the national boundary map, and used the magic selection tool again to cut the white national boundaries and place them atop the image. The sheer uncertainty of copying from eye to image is what makes me wary of anyone using these images, though I understand how vague maps are better than no maps at all. :P That Egypt thing was stupid. I thought the atlas might have been privy to some Sassanid invasion I didn't know about, or that perhaps I was mistaken in my dating of that one rebellion that swept the region...whose name escapes me at the moment. Perhaps Nabatean? (As you can see my understanding of the region is unfogivably vague) I shall use more common sense in the future.

As a further question, should the boundaries on the 395 map go past Hadrian's wall in Caledonia to the wall of Antoninus? The Antonine Wall page seems to disagree with such a move, but the "administrative divisions" image seems to affirm it. Geuiwogbil 15:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My God! This map discussion has become huge! Nice work, Geuiwogbil. I really can't wait to use that 476AD map, however I will have to wait until it shows Egypt and the lower levant in the empire. If you could let me know when you've completed it, that would be great. Thanks, Bigdaddy1204 17:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Changes done. Hope you all like the finished product. "This autumn, treat yourself to your very own Western and Eastern Roman Empires 476AD.png. You won't be sorry you did." Geuiwogbil 02:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou very much Geuiwogbil, your map is just what I was looking for. I have made a few small tweaks (colour changed to red and yellow, cut out northern europe) so that it matches our series of Byzantine Empire maps, and it is now at home in the article. I commend you for your quick response to my request, and praise the quality of your excellent map. Well done. :) Bigdaddy1204 13:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

NB: There certainly was diversity of languages, but all the urban and political centers of the empire spoke Greek, and later, when the heartlands of the Empire became South Italy, Balkans and Asia Minor, all these areas spoke Greek natively.

Also, the map does not show that Greek was spoken throughout Southern Italy, it is mentioned in almost every source documenting Belisarius' recapture of Italy that the cities that 'spoke Greek' in the South opened their gates more readily.

I used the colour scheme from the "Ancient Rome" article. Thanks for using it, though. About the anonymous user, (...sign your edits (...even if it's just with an IP address...) ...) it's not my map, I copied it from an external source. I'll go over whatever he wrote and get back to you, although your arguments certainly sound quite reasonable. Should there be a new division of "Greek and Latin"? How far up the peninsula would your penetration go? Was Greek a common language along only the Ionian coasts, or up to Naples and Apulia as well? When you say "urban and political centers" what urban and political centers of the Empire are not colored either "Greek" or "Greek and such and such"? Could you list them? Or, if possible, provide a helpful source? I'd be quite willing to modify this map in whatever way possible to fit up with agreed-upon history. Thank you both very much for your praise and criticism. Geuiwogbil 15:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Europe in 476 AD

The Mediterranean Sea and surrounding regions in 476 AD

Sorry to rain on your parade guys but a lot of this sounds like OR to me. Be careful to ensure that any information displayed by the maps is verifiable. 82.110.109.208 11:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

To be rather blunt, I`m now of mind to not let anonymous users the benifit of the doubt lest they show the necessary backing. The sheer bulk of anonymous POV pushing Trolls has greatly reduced the reputation of Anonymous users. Geuiwogbil'sm ap fit our current understanding, should someone have valid information to the contrary please speak up and present. If not, I would thank you to reduce glut and possible edit wars by not arguing.--Dryzen 15:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Upon looking at the 476 map, could it be possible to indicate to whom the moscels of the empire had fallen? --Dryzen 15:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I really fail to see the problem with anon's comments, since they are only requesting that they be verifiable - which is Wiki policy. Chill out Dryzen! Roydosan 15:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing against what 82.110.109.208 posted about OR, but it was the one prior to Geuiwogbil's last post (as represented by my indents matching that series of posts) that got to me. But it is true that I`ve grow weary of anons posting seemingly at random with oft time seemingly thinly veiled or blatent threats and POV. Byzantine article seems to catch a large number of these as well as several other article I have interest in at the moment.--Dryzen 18:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Moscels? Morsels? You mean draw the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Burgundians and Anglo-Saxons that fall under the old empire's boundaries? I'd be willing to do that. As a note, the later maps in the article should probably do the same as well. The late Byzantine Empire's position seems much more vulnerable with the Ottomans gobbling up the other Turks in Anatolia, the loss of Italy is much better portrayed when the Lombards are drawn, and those Dark Ages seem oh-so-much darker when the Bulgars are occupying the greater part of the Balkans. Too much of any of this would probably detract from the centrality of the Byzantine Empire, however. It might suit the lesser kingdoms (those not called Byzantine) to be coloured in somewhat duller colours with less defined lines of demarcation. In any case, to return to the point from which I have strayed, I would be willing to draw the successor kindoms in, if that's what you were asking for. Geuiwogbil 00:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Type-o, Yes I meant "Morsels", by wich the sections of hte empire that rebelled or where conquered. That an intriguing idea you have htere. Drawing some maps with the rival powers in europe, africa and asia. It could certainly set a mood to the periodes and predigament of the empire to readers. Such as astonishemnt at how it sruvived for so long agianst such arrays of opponents and sometime much larger foes (the Arab expansion, the Bulgar Empire, Turks, etc.. at variosu times). But as you put it, it would could stray from showing the empire's control. You can work with transparencies ot dull the colouring right? Mayhaps drawing the local states and then applying a grey film over them to leave the Byzantine in the forfront while the competitors dulled out yet still visible. What do you think?-- Dryzen 12:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that would be a very good idea. :) Geuiwogbil 15:12, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you look at what I just found! Made in the style of Astrokey's European series, a map of Europe in 476 AD. I'm be willing to make another version better suited to the general sweep of this article, but I think reccomendations on what I should do with this one could help. Thanks again. Geuiwogbil 00:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

And I made a modified version, with the recommended gray overlay. Does anyone want me to remove the kingdom labels? Geuiwogbil 00:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I gather that the isolated Roman province in the north of modern France is the Domain of Soissons (it is surprisingly similar with the later Dukedom of Normandy, if a bit bigger). But I am unsure of the identity of the isolated province in the North of Africa. Does it have a specific name? I have also a proposal to make. Wouldn't it be easier for the average user if we mantained the same colours for the single countries (like pink ? for the Byzantine Empire) in the diffrent maps? Flamarande 12:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The current colour scheme is pink/red for the Byzantine Empire, and yellow for areas outside the empire (as per these two maps: Bigdaddy1204 17:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I have created a new 'composite' map of the Byzantine Empire, which can be seen below. What do you think?

Golden Age & disillusionment

I feel that the coverage of the Byzantine Golden age is not adequate. This is supposed to be the heart of the article; instead in its present truncated form it seems rather half-hearted. I thank Geuiwogbil and Varana gratefully for their kind help with maps. However I have come to expect little or no help from anyone else if I request anything else. I have already asked about this and other things before, and been ignored.

As you can probably tell, I have become a little disillusioned with Wikipedia and some of the ungrateful, obstructionist, nasty, unimaginative and bigoted people who are determined to criticize, complain and even ridicule the hard work of others while contributing absolutely nothing themselves. They devote their energy enthusiastically to destructive edit wars and snide comments, but ask them for constructive help actually working on the text of an article, and they suddenly become the masters of procrastination. I am aware that others have already reached this stage long before me. But this is not the place for a commentary on the negative aspects of Wikipedia. Therefore I will get to the point: I beseech you all to do your best to improve the Golden Age section as best you can. I am willing to help, but I am not going to do it alone.

Perhaps I shouldn't have even bothered to ask, as I very much doubt that anyone will respond with anything more helpful than a personal attack. Prove me wrong. Bigdaddy1204 22:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm appreciative of what you have done to work on this article; it seems quite an impressive monument to your endeavours. I do not believe, however, that I could be much help with your work on the Byzantine Golden Age. I have Penguin editions of Psellos and the Alexiad, as well as Cyril Mango's Byzantium. Beyond that, I have nothing.

I live in a farmhouse, half an hour away from a poor town of 60'000, a town lost on a lonely stretch of highway in the middle of nowhere. My only resource is my own sparse bookshelf, with its old used paperbacks assembled from infrequent trips to larger cities far afield. Byzantine resources of a good character are thus somewhat lacking. I could work on anything that merely requires front-end maintenance of the article, but unless you could direct me to an online resource, or unless my own resources could add something, I couldn't really help with this article's content or citation.

I am deeply sorry. As much as I'd like to help, it's just not in the cards.

What would the postcard image be used for? I like the odd dotting of the body with little maps. I don't think they should be replaced by a compilation. Some other things:

• The progression isn't immediately obvious. I usually read images left-to-right along horizontal lines. Seeing it arranged along two columns as it is was a bit unsettling to me. Perhaps adding dates would help.
• The text should be removed before compression, and either re-written or discarded. It's all jaggy.
• My map should really have its big black borders removed...
• ...and be rotated...
• ...and have various major cities labeled...
• ...and have Mauretania removed as a territory of the Western Roman Empire... (I can't find any source other than the Collins Atlas which puts it there. Every Internet search, every other source, just tells me that the Vandals destroyed any and all traces of Roman civilization when they trotted across those semiarid plains. It must have been misprint. Thanks for pointing this out, Flamarande.)
• (...)I'm considering the possibility that I should just make a new map using Varana's base, or replace all of Varana's maps with new versions according to my general plans. The second, though not immediately attractive to me or anyone else, would allow complete standardization. Image:LatinEmpire.png could be made according to the plan of the other maps, a 476 AD map could be made without cutting out the Domain of Soissons, and the borders of Byzantium's neighbors could be shown as well. Having Manzikert shown on one of the maps would be useful too.

Sorry for the long post. Hope I've been more helpful than a personal attack. ;) Geuiwogbil 04:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou for your helpful response, Geuiwogbil. You have raised some interesting new possibilities. About the maps: once I had created the 'postcard' map, I was suprised by the result - it wasn't as good as I had expected, and I also thought it would look better going from left to right and with dates added. However by that time it was getting very late so I went to bed without making those changes.

Interesting point about the text, I think once again you are absolutely right - the resizing of the maps to fit them on the postcard has left the text looking "all jaggy", as you said.

About removing the black borders on your map - yes this is another thing that needs doing. Again lack of time was the reason I didn't already change it yesterday. The same applies to adding the cities.

As for rotating the map, I'm not sure how to do this. I have been using microsoft paint to edit the maps, but it doesn't have an option to rotate the map (at least, not that I know of). I think I would need a more sophisticated program to make that change, but of course I agree to it in principle.

About Mauretania - I think probably the region was outside effective Roman control after the Vandals appeared there, presumably because the extremely disturbed state of the empire at the time prevented the central government from restoring links with the area. The area was probably left to its own devices, much as the province of Britannia had been before it.

I think an animated map which contained all the individual maps from the postcard would be a brilliant addition to this and other pages on the Byzantines. There is already one animated version at the bottom of Byzantine Empire, but it shows old versions of many of the maps and misses out several of them altogether. A new animated map would be great, if I could find somebody to make it for me :) I have left a message on the userpage of the person that made the original, but he/she hasn't responded.

You have said "I'm considering the possibility that I should just make a new map using Varana's base, or replace all of Varana's maps with new versions according to my general plans."

Which maps specifically do you mean here? Varana has created the 1204 map, but how can you replace 'all of Varana's maps' when there is only the one? Or were you referring to my series of maps, with the red/pink Byzantine Empire on the yellow background? If it is the latter, then making a new map using my base could work, or replacing all of my maps with more detailed onces using your base could also work.

Personally I think making a whole new series of maps, and including other nations, as well as labelling more cities and places such as Manzikert, would be the best option. However, it would also be the most difficult option. But it is desirable to have the best range of maps possible.

The new series of maps would have to include all the dates we already have maps for:

476AD, 565AD, 717AD, 867AD, 1025AD, 1095AD, 1180AD, 1204AD, 1282AD, 1453AD.

We should also keep Varana's in-detail 1204 map, since a general map of 1204 wouldn't be able to show the partition of the empire in sufficient detail, because it would be too 'zoomed out'.

The new maps could be standardized, as you have suggested, so that they all have the same cities labelled, etc. What do you think? Are you in favour of creating these new maps? And which base should we use for the project - yours or mine? (I don't mind which) Bigdaddy1204 11:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry...I meant your maps. I was somewhat confused, thinking that perhaps your maps were a modification of Varana's or something along those lines. I hadn't paid attention to the mapmakers... I apologize for my confusion. Are you in favour of Dryzen's suggestion to include the Empire's neighbors? If so, I'd like to redo the whole series, with Blankmap v.3 as a base. I don't hold any particular attachment to it, its just that your map doesn't extend as far north as would be necessary to portray the whole of the Western Empire, or far enough south and east to perhaps portray as much of the Middle East as I'd like. If not, your base is probably fine, and I would just remake the 476 AD map. Whatever you'd like. Geuiwogbil 12:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

As I have posted on BigDaddy's talk page - returning from a somewhat unexpected hiatus. :(

I could combine the maps above into an animated GIF - I'd rather wait, however, if you decide to change the maps. Just tell. :)

I think using BigDaddy's map base would be better, even for including the Empire's neighbours, and just live with it that not the entire Western Empire would be shown. By extending the map that far north, we draw much focus away from the real topic of the maps (i.e. Byzantium), especially after Justinian.

With regard to sources/citations: Unfortunately, I have only limited access to scholarly literature, though I'll see what I can come up with when I get the chance to use a real library. Varana 14:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I lost my large reply and have not hte tiem to write it over again. It was, to express my understanding of Bigdaddy1204 situation and to ask for him not to despaire. At the very least not until he's spent enough time to read the entire archives. With that done one can then despaire at the bodies left in the mire.

I would gladly be aiding the article with new foudn knowledge of the pre-1081 Byzantine world, yet time and circumstances have not been kind. I've been constrained to talk pages for they are faster read and replied, all my articles on hold.

As to the maps, may I suggest a three form methode? Of wich three types of maps are made with diffrent yet complimenting intent. A single large map with geographic (plains, hills, lakes, etc.) and demographic details (i.e. cities ,etc.), could be geo-politacly themed to any given date, perferably a strong Byzantine periode, yet this would only be filling and not the main point of the image. This first style would act as a reference when people seek information on battles, i.e. "Manzkiert, where is that? lets go look on the big map" The second type, could have some 3-5 maps presenting the geopolitical world during the Empire's important periodes, ex: the Barbarien break up of the Roman Empire, the division between Amirs and Slavic peoples (Byzantine's many ennemies divided) and the fourth crusade break up. Lastly would be a series of dated maps to solely indicate the territorial predigament of the empire with little to no details beyond the borders of the empire and some basic geography. Smaller these as glaced at an understood, the animation of the empire should be based on these. I currently have some visualy dull yet information full maps of the Themes at different periodes (840, 1025). These could be readily converted ot present the empire at those times.--Dryzen 15:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thankyou for the quick responses :) I think having these different types of maps is an interesting solution. To respond to the earlier posts, I think that we should go ahead with making a new series of maps, which use my base (as Varana has said) and show the empire's neighbours and enemies.

I also think a new map showing where places are, as Dryzen has suggested, could be useful to go at the start of the article, so people can refer back to it for info on where places are.

I don't know if we need a third series of maps to show just the empire's borders and nothing else, because if we do this there could be too many maps in the article; also we would already show the empire's borders with the series of maps showing the 'geopolitical world', as you have said. On the other hand, maps showing just the empire do have the advantage of emphasising the empire, and drawing attention to it rather than other nations. What do you think about this?

Geuiwogbil, would you be willing to help us to create the new series of maps, which would replace the existing series, by showing the empire and its neighbours and enemies at 476AD, 565AD, 717AD, 867AD, 1025AD, 1095AD, 1180AD, 1204AD, 1282AD, 1453AD?

Also Varana, could you make an animated GIF map from the existing maps for now? If it's not too much work? The animated map would preferably use all the individual maps which were used to make Image:ByzantineEmpirepostcard3.PNG [[1]] (listed in the summary). Then when we have the new series of maps, we can decide whether to make them into an animated map, or just leave it. What do you say? Bigdaddy1204 13:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Maps of 476AD, 565AD, 717AD, 867AD, 1025AD, 1095AD, 1180AD, 1204AD, 1282AD, 1453AD with neigbours will take up too much room in this article, mayhaps making a sub-article highlighting the fluctuating borders of the Empire would better house this colelction. My reason for the third series is to take less space while still rpesenting the territorial information. These maps having only the Empire could be shown smaller without loosing inforation, unlike type two. As well Type three dosen't steal the reader from the article; meaning the reader can in a glance read the information of the map and keep on reading the article. With more detailed maps his attention will be bogged down on the represention. We could produce both series 2 and 3, keeping the 3rd here moving hte 2nd to the possible sub-article, with a few samples in the main article. Of course that all depends on the Graphists.--Dryzen 15:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, where did you get your 1025 map? The borders seem to differ from my own 1025 map.--Dryzen 15:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I intend to contribute to the article (content and referencing issues), including the sections Bigdaddy has indicated. The problem is that right now I don't have the adequate time for such a thorough research and editing. Almost all my important plans in Wikipedia are stagnated for the next 15 days. I understand Bigdaddy's stagnation, but I think that he must take into consideration the fact that some people might bu under important time pressure and cannot contribute whenever they are asked to.--Yannismarou 15:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Updated the animated map with the new version of the 550 map, and the new 867 map:

Animated Map of the Borders of the Byzantine Empire

Varana 17:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Cheers Varana! :) It's good to see a progression from 717 to 1025 going via 867, instead of just being a massive and unexpected jump! I have a couple of questions/ideas about the animated map. Would you be able to add my new Image:Byzantium476.PNG to the animation? It shows the empire right at the start, it 476AD - their inheritance from the Romans. One more thing. It's being picky I know, but could you also add Image:Byzantium in 1170(3).PNG instead of Image:Byzantium@1180.jpg? It's a more accurate version I made after the first one. If these two features could be added, the animated map would then become perfect! Bigdaddy1204 19:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Not picky, if it's more accurate. ;) I've added 476 and swapped 1180 with 1170 (you may need to reload (F5) the page if the previous version still is in your cache). :) Varana 20:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent work! Thankyou Varana. You have made the perfect animated Byzantine Map! I will make sure it finds a place on many Byzantine pages :) Bigdaddy1204 22:13, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Good work Varana, as is the usual.--Dryzen 14:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Map improvements (only reasonable ones please)

I don't know anything about making maps (or improving them) for the articles, but it seems to me that some of you are quite adept at it. I quite like the maps recently provided, but I see some small things that might (and should) be improved. Here are my proposals; follow them only if you agree with them and are willing to do it. There might be other valid improvements somebody else might wish to point out; please do so but don't exagerate (i.e.: don't clutter the maps with too much info, keep them rather simple). Flamarande 22:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

1) besides Rome, Ravena, and Constantinople please mark also Alexandria, Nicea, Thessalonica, and Jerusalem in the maps for they were also cities of major importance (Antioch is in some maps but not in others, this could also be corrected).

2) include the map from 395 AD.

For the clutter we've already been discussing the point by making multiple type maps for their multiple roles in the article. Type one would show city information as well as a myriade ot ofther important and secondary infromtation, this would be the only map that could characterised ascluttered, although there is no such athing a clutter in well made map, only information that you haven't found a use for yet. ;o) As soon as I am able to have my Sources' returned I should be posting a few new maps for Bigdaddy1204 to normalise and Varana to intergrate in his already fabulous animation.--Dryzen 14:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm eager to get to work on those new maps you mentioned; I'll be very happy to do what you ask when you are ready! Bigdaddy1204 14:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for hte delay. tic-toc-tic-toc, waiting...--Dryzen 19:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Can you post the new maps for me to work on? If you want me to start right now, I could try to do points 1) and 2) immediately. What are these other maps you have in mind? Bigdaddy1204 19:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I am working on the 395 map right now. Should be finished soon... Bigdaddy1204 20:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is the completed 395 map - tell me what you think! Bigdaddy1204 21:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC) :

Latin names for the Eastern Empire

I know that they stoped using latin after a certain date. However I think it would good idea if this article had both the latin and greek names for the empire.

A Proposal

The article is very long. I propose the following sections (1 Name of the Byzantine Empire 2 Identity, continuity, and consciousness 3 Origin) are moved to their own new article Byzantine Identity. A cursory statement of the Byzantine's continuity with the Roman Empire and it's predominantly Greek population and culture could be mentioned in the opening paragraph (as it is now). As it is the sections tell us a lot about what the Byzantines identity was/wasn't but don't help the article; which should focus more on the historical aspect of the empire and not explore issues of identity. Roydosan 13:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Roydosan, I understand, but can I ask you a simple question. Do you believe the native Greeks viewed themselves as under occupation by a foreign latin force throughout the period of Byzantium? I don't understand your issue with Byzantium - It is Greek, no one is claiming it was the Hellenic Republic incarnate of the Middle Ages, but that it was Greek is indisputable, the main reason for people neglecting Byzantine History is PRECISELY the emphasis on it's legacy, a Greek continuation of the latin Roman Empire in the East, rather than how it should be, a Greek state of the Middle Ages, viewed in context with other states of the period. The fact people over-emphasize it's legacy is what leads to people dismissing it so often, they simply say 'oh, it was just a half-dead version of the roman empire'. Is there no period of Greek History safe from attack these days? Greeks will fight to the death, myself included, to protect our rightful positions. Just as you would with your own history roydosan, I have never made claims on the Tudor Dynasty or The British Empire. Why because there has been a slight resurgence of interest in Byzantine studies are the western europeans now seeking to appropriate Byzantine History? This unsigned comment was left by 86.141.243.11

You may be right, Roydosan. This might even free up some space for a more detailed discussion of the Byzantine Golden Age under the Macedonians, which is something I've long been calling for. However, the fact that I assume that someone will stomp on me immediately for even suggesting this is indicative of the problem with this article. I apologise for the digression, but I still feel it's difficult to write about any non-map-related issue here without being aggressively flamed by someone. This has driven me away to a certain extent. I got involved in maps instead, a topic that has produced some good results (thanks to Varana and Geuiwogbil) such as a new animated Byzantine Empire map, new 476AD map, etc , and will hopefully produce more when Flamarande and Dryzen come back.

I support your proposal. I'm glad that someone has something new to suggest for this article. Bigdaddy1204 14:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to respond to the anonymous post above mine:

"Why because there has been a slight resurgence of interest in Byzantine studies are the western europeans now seeking to appropriate Byzantine History?"

I don't see quite what you mean. Appropriate Byzantine History? Perhaps you are thinking that Roydosan has over-emphasised the Roman aspects of Byzantine Civilisation, to make it more palatable to a western european audience? As it is your comments about western europeans may invite antagonism. Bigdaddy1204 22:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous these issues about Greek nationhood and the Byzantine empire mean nothing to anyone apart from the Greek editors on Wikipedia. Please don't take offence at what I'm saying as that's not what I intend. No-one is disputing the Greek nature of the empire (albeit a nature which identified itself very strongly as 'Roman'). I disagree with your comments about people ignoring the empire as some half forgotten relic of the Roman empire. In my experience people are often greatly interested in the subject once they discover that the Roman empire continued for another thousand years after its supposed end in 476. Anyway this is beside the point. The issue of identity, since it is obviously so controversial, deserves to be dealt with in its own article. Placed in the article here it seems out of place. Far better to have this article to deal with the purely historical aspects of the empire and for issues of cultural identity to be dealt with elsewhere where they can be more thoroughly explored. There could be a link in the article here to the identity article so that it would not be a case of merely removing text but of directing the reader to that information. Roydosan 09:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Roydosan since you're British you might as well be interested in reading some British historians on the subject. No historiography treats Byzantine as part of the ancient Roman history, this is just your personal, romantic view and it has no place in wikipedia. Try to finally understand how edits are made in this place. Miskin 12:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And by the way I'm against this proposal because in a way Roydosan is trying to "filter" the article and create what he considers a POV-fork. Obviously we should reduce and break down the article, but not along the lines a POV-pusher defines. Miskin 12:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Miskin, as usual you've misrepresented me since I never claimed that that was the case. And as for POV pushing that is fairly rich coming from you. I've always been objective and impartial, which you would discover if you actually bothered to read what I have written rather than jumping down my throat because it doesn't fit in with your POV. Anyway this is all beside the point. Moving this stuff, which is fairly irrelevant to the history of the empire, to an appropriate article is not the case of censoring the identity aspect but putting it in it's own article where it can be dealt with in detail. The article would be linked from the opening paragraph so there is no question about eliminating any reference to it. Roydosan 12:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Culture and society is as much history as is politics and wars. How would a purely "political" history of Byzantium improve the article, more than a balanced one touching on all aspects of the Byzantine world? If the length of the article is a problem, which I may agree it is, it should be dealt with by condensing the material while mantaining balance on ALL topics, not by turning it into a political history. And the opening sections already does have a link to the identity of the empire - the Names of the Greeks article -, which deals quit comprehensively on who the Byzantines were. Colossus 13:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes you're right they are as much history as politics and war are. But, sub-articles are a suitable conduit by which to further elaborate on lengthy issues and the identity aspect is rather long in the context of this article. It would be much better dealt with in its own article and the Names of the Greeks article is insufficient since it excludes the non-Greek aspects of the empire. The identity article could further explore issues of continuity with Rome, the multi-ethnic nature, the Hellenisation of the empire, Orthodoxy, etc. Roydosan 13:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree, there was a multi-ethnic nature, but its irrelevant to the larger aegis of being a 'Byzantine' which is more akin to being a Greek than anything else. For example, Zeno I had to change his name to Zeno to make himself more acceptable to the native Greeks of the Empire. Also, notable Armenians (the only other ethnic minority who had a great impact on the Empire) would have been so Hellenized by the 6th Century that they would have considered themselves 'Roman' (in the later Hellenistic sense) anyway. Names of the Greeks is not insufficient. And I ask you again, did the native Greeks of the Byzantine Empire consider themselves under occupation for a 1000 years? Of course not. Don't tie Byzantium down with it's legacy, it should be viewed as an Empire that created it's own legacy. There are many more controversial historical issues out there, chances are Richard The Lionheart never considered himself an 'Englishman', yet canonically in many modern sources he is referred to as a 'King of England'. There is no other nation that can draw the linguistical, cultural and religious continuity of Byzantium other than The Hellenic Republic, thats a simple fact. This unsigned comment was left by 86.141.243.11

The native Greeks would not have considered themselves under occupation for the simple fact that they considered themselves Romans as good as the best Roman from Italy. Many Greeks had attained Roman citizenship well before Caracalla's decree of 212 so the Roman identity was well established before the division of the empire. In any case - if one is to consider the 'long' Byzantine empire (330-1453) then the Names of the Greeks article is woefully insufficient, since it excludes the large part of the empire - even Britain if you want to date it from 330 (though I would not go to such an extreme personally). The names of the Greeks article excludes many who were part of the Byzantine empire and considered themselves Romans, therefore it is clearly insufficient. That is not to deny the legacy bequeathed to Greece by Byzantium but to claim it solely for the Greeks is clearly POV and contrary to Wiki policy. Roydosan 14:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

As usual, Roydosan's conclusions are based on original research and do not cite any sources. When you invent your own method of historiography we will follow your example and regard the "Romans" as an unbroken national identity that survived until the 15th century (this naiveness is what actually Roydosan supports). Until then I'll stick with the existing methods of historiography. Miskin 19:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Roydosan, this is my point, they considered themselves Roman, but by the 7th century the lands of the Roman Empire had been whittled down to largely ethnic Greek areas, sure, they still considered themselves Roman, but they certainly didn't consider other former provinces in the West and their populace 'Romans'. What you have in the Roman Empire is quite simple, a Universality of citizenship based largely on a meritocracy, which superceded ethnic division, however, the East always maintained it's own culture (for example there are less archaeological sites of arenas in Asia Minor and Achaea because the Greeks preferred their native games such as horse racing), language and ethnicity despite this. However, what you have from the 5th to the 7th century is a gradual whittling down of the Empire to it's 3 major areas: Southern Italy, the Balkans and Asia Minor - cumulatively there was a large Greek majority in these areas (and a huge Greek majority in Constantinople itself for obvious reasons), they still considered themselves Roman, but in their eyes, the only 'Romans' left were themselves (i.e. Greeks). My point is simply this Roydosan, you say that it's wrong for me to state that Byzantium's legacy is 'solely' bequeathed by Greece. I never stated that, I stated that Greece was THE cultural, linguistical, ethnic and religious continuation of Byzantium, I am not denying the presence of a Byzantine Commonwealth, but the entitlement of say.... Russia, despite being more than Western Europe, is not equivocal to Greece because Byzantium is canonically 'Greek' History for the reasons already discussed.

Claiming Byzantium's legacy is egalitarian in modern day nations is wrong, England for example, clearly has more of a right to claim The British Empire as part it's own legacy than the subjects of the Empire. Same goes for Byzantium and Greece, and also, why should we overturn centuries of historical scholarship that refer to the Byzantines simply as the 'Greek peoples of the Middle Ages' simply because you want to restore a universality that simply didn't exist anymore by the 6th century. This unsigned comment was left by 86.141.243.11

My stance on this time honoured cycle of discussion has already been stipulated. Therefore I shall keep it prompt and to the point of the proposal. The Identity of the Byzantine Empire is an important subject and deserves its own article, a place that will give it the room it requires to be properely presented, something it cannot gain in its present location: an article that must keep its many sections concise due to its already massive amount of information.--Dryzen 16:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

sub-articles are a suitable conduit by which to further elaborate on lengthy issues and the identity aspect is rather long in the context of this article. It would be much better dealt with in its own article and the Names of the Greeks article is insufficient since it excludes the non-Greek aspects of the empire. The identity article could further explore issues of continuity with Rome, the multi-ethnic nature, the Hellenisation of the empire, Orthodoxy, etc.

All of them topics commendable on their own right, though I still dont understand why they need to be replaced and moved from the main article rather than expanded upon, simply by placing a link to a more detailed article in addition to the respective identity section. It seems you're firmly set on transforming the currently well-rounded and balanced article into a political history, which would only weaken it. If article length is a problem, which again, I agree it is, condensing the existing material is the way to go, not cuting and pasting away whole sections. Colossus 21:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, I think we can safely omit the "Identity..." section. It is quite sketchy, with only that quote and the mentioning of Argyropoulos; the "Names of the Greeks" article explains that and a lot more in detail, and is quite good in this regard (we should probably link directly to the "Romans and Romioi" and the following sections). The "Name of the Byzantine Empire" paragraphs should stay; they are necessary for this article. Currently, the "Identity..." stub serves no real purpose. The information therein (i.e. the quote) can be condensed and either moved to the lead paragraph (where a short sentence on "multi-ethnic Empire that became the medieval Greek state" might be in order), or to the "Names..." section. However, it should be merged into those sections, not simply added, as esp. in the lead there already are several statements alluding to the issue, and we should avoid repetition.

If anyone can come up with a decent text on the "Identity..." topic (that doesn't double with the "Names of the Greeks" article), it should be inserted again. Until then, the "Identity..." stub is not necessary (note: the current text - the topic itself does need a place somewhere in the article). Varana 18:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Miskin, I have never made any statements that were OR. But here are some quotes if it makes you happy.

“On 17 September he (Liudprand) was once again summoned, this time by the Patrician Christopher, a eunuch, who began the conversation with one or two personal remarks:

‘The pallor of your face, the emaciation of your whole body, the unusual length of your hair and beard, all reveal the immense pain that is in your heart because the date of your return to your master has been delayed…. The reason is this. The Pope of Rome – if indeed he may be called Pope when he has held communion and ministry with Alberic’s son, the apostate, the adulterer, the sacreligious – has sent a letter to our most sacred Emperor, worthy of himself and unworthy of Nicephorus, calling him ‘Emperor of the Greeks’ and not ‘of the Romans’. Certainly this has been done at your master’s instigation… That fatuous blockhead of a Pope does not know that the sacred Constantine transferred to this city the imperial sceptre, the senate and all the Roman knighthood, leaving in Rome nothing but vile slaves, fishermen, confectioners, poulterers, bastards, plebeians and underlings. Never would he have written this letter if your king had not suggested it.’

Clearly this was no time for heroics. Liudprand tried to argue that since the days of Constantine the Byzantines had changed their language, custom and dress, and that the Pope had probably thought that by now the very name of Romans, like their sartorial style, might be distasteful to them; but he did not press the point. Finally he promised that all future letters would be addressed to ‘Nicephorus, Constantine and Basil, the great and august Emperors of the Romans.’”

Norwich, J. J. Byzantium The Apogee. 1991 p. 201

Byzantium is better known as “the medieval Christian east Roman empire, because that is what Byzantium really was.”

Haldon, J. Byzantium at War 2002

In any case, this is all beside the point. The fact that this proposal has generated so much debate proves, in my mind, the necessity of a separate article on Byzantine Identity. Simply using the Names of the Greeks article smacks of POV. Especially since for much of its history the empire included many other ethnic groups. Wikipedia should not be used as a nationalist soapbox - especially when such an interpretation is at variance with the majority of books on the subject. Roydosan 12:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

We are well aware of the fact they found the term 'Hellene' insulting, because it was a subtle insult over their titular rights to call themselves the 'Emperor of the Romans', as well as 'Hellene' being a synonym for Pagan. I guess what I don't understand about you the most Roydosan, is why you find it so hard to fathom that people can, throughout history, call themselves by different names. You claim this article and the identity section is POV, you talk of the 'minorities' within the Empire. Fine. But you fail to note that peoples such as the Armenians where thoroughlly Hellenized. Let me provide some quotes of my own from Browning:

"By constantly setting themselves in their imagination against the Latins, the Byzantines redefined their own identity..... There is a very real sense in which the prehistory of Greek nationalism can be traced back to the long and traumatic confrontation with the Latin west."

and....

"To these peasents of Asia Minor the millenary traditions of Roman Imperialism meant little. The restoration of Roman power in the west was not an attractive dream. The world they were willing to fight for was that in which they lived - Greek."

You should buy this book, Browning also discusses friction between Greeks and mercenaries in the army. You are against the Greeks like all Westerners are, cheering as bombs were dropped on Serbia. You dont realise how many of us Greeks will stand against you to defend Greek History.

"You are against the Greeks like all Westerners are, cheering as bombs were dropped on Serbia. You dont realise how many of us Greeks will stand against you to defend Greek History." HELLO exageration, lies, and nationalism ad absurdum. Never knew that all Westerners are against the Greeks (I heard many times that Ancient Greece is considered the craddle of Western civilization though). Your insinuation that Roydosan cheered as the bombs were falling on Serbia is completly ridiculous. Try to behave like a reasonable and civilized person. Flamarande 13:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Roydosan,l i still cannot understand... I have been following the discussion, yet i chose not to participate in it so far. Using the Names of the Greeks article is NPOV enough. the term 'Romioi' mentioned there, which happened to be the name used by the Greek Byzantines and the Modern Greeks until late 18th century (and it is still in use by them in a lesser extend at present) is enough to persuade even the most suspicious reader. Apropos, the many other ethnic groups that u mentioned used their own names (e.g., i doubt if u will find a single Armenian or Copt telling u that they ever stopped using their own self-identifing names). btw, has there existed an empire consisting by a single ethnic group? thus, i find the proposal for a separate article on Byzantine Identity, just provocative; the next thing would be to create an article on British or French or German or Ottoman or Russian Empire Identity, in which there will be an effort to present these empires as distinct from the British/French/German/Turkish/Russian people respectively. U know that such an effort is meant to fail, as u also know that minorities and ethnic groups inside an empire do not alter the character and identity of the dominant ethnic group. I bet u know many things about Byzantine history... so, u know that the Medieval Greeks fought wars against the Slavs, Bulgars, Armenians, Georgians, Arabs, Goths, Avars, Persians as well as that they had clashes with the Copts, the Syriacs the Paulicians, etc. Which was the other part in this wars and clashes, if not the Greeks? Hectorian 13:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

"...the very designation 'Greek', which we use so freeely today to describe those Byzantines who did not belong to any alien group, is entirely absent from the literature of the period." page 27 of "Byzantium the empire of the New Rome" by Cyril Mango ISBN 1-89880-044-8. I suspect that the whole issue is simply not so clear as we may wish for. Flamarande 14:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian the Names of the Greeks article is POV because it assumes that all Byzantines were Greeks - which they most patently weren't. Yes it is true that Greek's came to dominate the empire and were the predominant ethnic group - but they weren't the only ethnic group. The Byzantines would not have understood modern ideas of ethnic or national identity - for them all that was important was membership of the Orthodox Church and the use of Greek in official business (this isn't my take on the situation but a comment in a book I read recently - I'll put up the ref later before anyone accuses me of OR again). Therefore the Names of the Greeks article is blatantly point of view since it is an exclusionary and partial interpretation of history to state that from 330-1453 the only Byzantines were Greeks. Roydosan 14:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, hows this for an article: 'The English are the greatest, blah blah blah, in actuality, the Byzantine people were English people who emigrated to Asia Minor in the 4th century AD.' Happy? Why the heck is it so difficult for you two haters of Greece to understand that people can call themselves by different names throughout history yet remain, ethnically, culturally and linguistically GREEEK? WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND??

Flamarande and Roydosan want to make it look like the only period of Greek History is 5th century Athens. Why should not Paparigopoulos be included? He was a great Historian of Byzantium and tied in Greek prehistory to Modern Greek history.

Roydosan, it doesn't matter... It does not matter how many ethnic groups were in the empire (whose borders, anyway vary, depending on the century)... The Names of the Greeks is NPOV enough. it incorporates valuable info on the names the Greeks have used and the names other nations gave to them. The Byzantines had a concept of national identity. just because other medieval states did not have such a concept, it doesn't mean that the Byzantines also didn't! the ancient Greeks, also had a clear concept of national identity, didn't they? also, the Empire, ended its history as a Greek nation state. apart from the books u are reading, i would advice u to also read some translations of medieval greek documents and literature works (better read them in Greek, if u know the language). u will see authors calling themselves 'Romans' (christians subjects of the Roman empire), whose ancestors were 'Hellenes'... It is clearly documented. also, the epic poem of Digenes Akritas, the national epos of the Medieval Greeks (equivelent to the Iliad for the ancients). but even if, as u say for them all that was important was membership of the Orthodox Church and the use of Greek in official business (btw, Greek was not only used officially, but was also the language of the people-better re-check the author of that book), u support the same thing... Greek Orthodoxy and Greek language; religion and language are two of the most important characteristics that make a nation distinct from the others-it is not hard for someone to understand that the Greeks considered themselves distinct from the Latins and western europeans in religious affairs-also, have a look where and by whom the heresies were created: Oriental Orthodoxy, Paulicianism, Nestorianism, Arianism... those people did not consider themselves Byzantines (id est Greeks). the Copts even welcomed the Arab conquerors as liberators... I am telling this again: if someone will try to draw a distinction between the Greeks, as a nation, and the Byzantine Empire, as if Byzantines were not Greeks, i expect from him to do the same for the other Empires as well... And since u are British (and the anon above was rather sarcastic-though he should had avoid personal attacks and such language), i am making a comparison: the British Empire was not British... various ethnic groups participated... Notably the Irish, the Vikings, and later the Native Americans, the Africans (and the Dutch in S.Africa), the Indians and Pakistanis... Also, this empire lacked other feutures that make up a nation, id est language (various Celtic languages... Gaelic, Manx, Welsh, bla bla bla), and also religion: the British were not all Anglicans... Irish Catholics, Calvinist Scots, not to mention the Deists... Several uprisings during the centuries, show that i am right... Or maybe u wanna talk about the origins of the Brits? 25% of Londoners are of Hugenot French ancestry, isn't that right? 8 million British people today are of Irish descent... So, for which "Queen of England" are we talking about? she is of German descent, right? as many Byzantine emperors were of Armenian origin. this is about numerous peoples connected only under a single crown (we know how the Kingdom of Scotland ended its existance, as we all also know what is probably gonna happen on May 2007...), sometimes by force and with, sometimes, common interests... So, under this pretext, the British Empire has nothing to do with the British people... (lol... when India was part of the Empire, the Britons made up just 5-10% of the whole population or the empire!). the very moment u will agree with what i have just said about Britain (and u create an article about the distinct identity of the its people from the modern Brits), i will begin to rethink of a possible similar change in this article. Regards Hectorian 17:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

bravo file mou!!! I am a proud greek and i will not let these people take my history from me. yet again they have proven that we greeks have only two allies: God and the serbs.

Errm... Serbs? Now again, what the hell do Serbs have to do with this debate? --- And just a personal opinion: I think it would help much if you would stop to see this as a personal attack. History does not "belong" to anyone.

Anyway, God lives in France and America is His country. ;) Varana 19:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian et al.: I think it would be great if a decent text actually came out of this debate. As I see it: We have a multi-ethnic, decidedly all-encompassing Empire in the Roman tradition at the start. On the religious level, this includes orthodox-catholic Christians, Monophysites, several other sects, Pagans, Jews, and more. On the linguistic level, we have Greek (large majority), Latin (esp. in the Danubian provinces), Syriac / Aramaic, Coptic (Syriac and Coptic literature thrives in early Byzantium, until the Arab conquest), and more. Culturally, we have Hellenism transformed by Roman rule with various "indigenous" cultures, esp. in rural areas. And so on: Roydosan has a point, imo, that the Empire did not *begin* as a "Greek" nation-state. (Copts of course never self-identified as "Byzantines" - no one ever did. ;)) Together with the territorial reduction, the Greek character of the Empire grew, as it was more and more reduced to areas where Greeks were dominant.

So later on, we have a "Roman Empire of the Greek Nation", so to speak, with large non-Greek minorities (Armenian, but also Slav, etc.) It would be interesting to take a more detailed look at that time, i.e. the Middle Byzantine period, when the Empire was still "Roman" (i.e. ruling the oikoumene) in theory, but transforming into something like a nation.

And then we have the late period - which can be seen already in Anna Komnene, but esp. after the 4th Crusade (as somewhat of a catalyst) and the Recovery, when Byzantium was the Greek "nation-state" (note the "") also in reality. Chalcondylas, Argyropoulos and other avant-garde proponents of "Hellenism" fall into this period.

To flesh out that development with literature and source citations would be worthwhile, I think. Varana 19:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I still cannot see why the Byzantine Empire should be treated differently than the other empires... Btw, i am waiting for an answer about the British Empire that i mentioned above (u all know that i said nothing untrue:)). non Greek citizens did not self-identify as "Byzantines" (since the term was un-invented back then), but they even did not identify as Romioi-the many wars the Armenians, Georgians, Slavs, Avars, etc fought against the Romioi, shows this clearly... I agree on all u said above, and all of them are true... but they belong to a 'Demographics of the Byzantine Empire' article, don't u think? U mentioned above the various religious, linguistic and ethnic minorities (and i could name more, if asked to)... So, i challenge anyone to name one single modern nation (if not an empire of the past!) which is solely occupied by 1 ethnic group, 1 religion and 1 language. Culturally, we have Hellenism transformed by Roman rule with various "indigenous" cultures. How about that?:(about modern Britain) Culturally, we have a germanic nation, transformed by Roman, Norman rules with various "indigenous" (Pictish, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc) and "imported" (German, French, Indian, etc) cultures and with lots of Greek and Greco-Roman influences... id est, Britain is not British...

About the comment on Serbs by the anon above, he just quoted the words of Radovan Karadzic: "The Serbs have only two friends, God and the Greeks.", by altering them. he is right about the feelings of friendship between the Greeks and the Serbs, but this is somehow irrelevant to this discussion... Regards Hectorian 19:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal - put to the vote

I am not interested in petty bickering and nationalistic arguments. Therefore I will keep my comments short and to the point. Roydosan has proposed the following sections (1 Name of the Byzantine Empire 2 Identity, continuity, and consciousness 3 Origin) are moved to their own new article Byzantine Identity.

Why not skip the useless arguing about irrelevant issues, and just take a simple vote on whether we should do what Roydosan has proposed?

I invite you all to Support or Object to the proposal now, and put an end to this pointless arguing over bigoted nationalistic nonsense. Bigdaddy1204 20:43, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Bigdaddy1204, but i do not find the whole discussion as "nationalistic"... I have explained my position in detail. what Roydosan has asked is "disconnection" of the modern Greeks from the medieval Greeks. and this is something i will never agree on. i made comparisons, for which i got no answer. an article 'Byzantine Identity' would stand only and only if other articles will be created regarding the "different" identities of the same ethnic groups (huh?) throughout the ages, id est, only if articles named British Empire's Identity or German Empire's Identity or Russian Empire's Identity will be created to establish a separation between the medieval British, German and Russian identities from the modern ones respectively. Regards Hectorian 21:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I will take that as an Object then, Hectorian ;)

I will refrain from voting myself - it is not an issue which I want to decide either way. I will remain neutral for now, given the strong views of those who know more about this topic than I do. But please feel free to post a Support or Object, followed by your signiture, if you so wish. Bigdaddy1204 22:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Supporting and objecting

If you support Roydosan's proposal, write *Support followed by your reason(s). If you oppose the proposal, write *Object or *Oppose followed by the reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with ...) rather than removing it. Contributors should allow others the opportunity to do this themselves. To provide constructive input on the proposition without explicitly supporting or objecting, write *Comment followed by your advice.

roman-empire.net link

While the major part of the site deals with the ancient Roman Empire, there is a section on Byzantium under http://roman-empire.net/constant/constant-index.html . Now, the question is: do we need that information in the external links? If yes, we should give the above link on the relevant section, instead of the whole site. I think it would be best to come to a conclusion on that topic some time, instead of constant reverting and re-inserting. Varana 18:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)