Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

Please use this page to start discussions that either affect the project as a whole or several task forces. For discussions about individual existing task forces, please use that task force's talk page instead. Skip to Table of Contents • List and scope of Task Forces • Add new section

Summary of Military history WikiProject open tasks watch · edit · full list
News and announcements The May newsletter is now available. Editors are advised that Featured Articles promoted before 2016 are in need of review, if you had an article promoted to Featured status on or before 2016 please check and update your article before they are listed at FAR/C.	Current discussions No major discussions are open at the moment
Featured article candidates Turabay dynasty • Thomas Neville (died 1460) • Battle of Poison Spring • Yugoslav submarine Mališan • Shigi Qutuqu • John Savage (soldier) Featured article review USS Wisconsin (BB-64) • Edward III of England • Byzantine Empire • Battle of Red Cliffs • Edward I of England • Northrop YF-23 Featured picture candidates Thorsten Nordenfelt A-Class review Henry Biard • Battle of Saipan • Fort Corcoran • Sihanouk Trail • Battle of La Haye-du-Puits • Battle of Tinian • Henry Macandrew • Boot Monument • HMS Sardonyx (1919) Peer reviews Muckrach Castle • Battle of Pandu • Charles the Bold • Regency of Algiers • Wolfgang Larrazábal	Good article nominees Nazran uprising • Abu'l-Fath Khan Javanshir • Iga ikki • Kōka ikki • Ava–Hanthawaddy War (1401–1403) • William Henry Harrison Seeley • Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma • Khalji Revolution • Travis King • 1864 Washington Arsenal explosion • Antoine Hamilton • George II of Greece • Roswell incident • Podgorica Assembly • Masopha • Sam Bahadur (film) • Maximiliano Hernández Martínez • Mohammad Shah Qajar • HMS Renard (1909) • Battle of Meligalas • Blohm & Voss BV 40 • Zeppelin-Staaken L • Gubir shootdown • The Defence of Duffer's Drift • Chestertown Armory • Mariano R. Vázquez • Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk • Gotha WD.7 • Cultybraggan Camp • HMS Basilisk (1910) • Constantine II (emperor) Good article reassessments Loitering munition • Lockheed YF-22
Articles that need... work on referencing and citation (147,319) • only work on referencing and citation (43,150) • work on coverage and accuracy (122,437) • only work on coverage and accuracy (19,629) • work on structure (31,770) • only work on structure (358) • work on grammar (8,183) • only work on grammar (45) • work on supporting materials (32,736) • only work on supporting materials (1,336) • assessment (3) • assessment as lists (123) • project tags fixed (7) • assessment checklists added (11) • assessment checklists completed (30) • task forces added (286) • attention to task force coverage (679)

Isaac Brock under FA review

Isaac Brock has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.

Military history of Canada

Military history of Canada has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.

C-class question

I probably missed the discussion here, so feel free to just link me to the archives: why is the MILHIST project not using the C-class? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You're very lazy. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military_history/Archive 80#New C-Class and Milhist. Wandalstouring (talk) 18:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

He is not lazy. I never even knew about the discussion until it was closed. I think that this should've been able to be known ahead of time so that we could all know about it. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 20:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It was well-advertised: it was in the announcements template, it was open for two weeks. How do you mean "should've been able to be known ahead of time?" We saw it being adopted into 1.0, we asked the project what they thought, they offered their opinions. For future reference, what else would you liked to have seen happen? Woody (talk) 20:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't usually pay attention to the template. I thought that it would be advertised in the newsletter or something like that. I just would've liked to have known that this was going on because i'm sure there are many others out there were in the same position as we were. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This page is the only one related to MILHIST that I watch. I didn't know about it either until it was almost over. IIRC tho, the discussion I saw had less than 20 participants total, not quite what I would expect for a project this size. I don't believe there would be any harm in revisiting the issue, given the questions being raised about the whole issue, and the circumstances of the decision. - BillCJ (talk) 02:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This is where the discussion took place, so I am not sure how you missed it. I am not averse to re-opening it, but that is not my decision. There was a solid consensus at the time. What are the questions being raised about the whole issue? Woody (talk) 01:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I second Bill. The Start-Class is extremely disproportionate to the project. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Best may be to see whether significant support for C-Class develops during this discussion. (To this end, I'll add it to /Announcements.) Then, if there is significant support here, C-Class could be revisited, as a referendum, during the upcoming coordinator elections starting on Sep 15. Does this seem sensible? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 09:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Roger. Yes, that seems sensible to me. - BillCJ (talk) 09:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

What happened at wp:ships is that C ratings were rejected at first but later on after some discussion we're now using the rating. Ship articles can only be rated a C if the B class checklist is filled out and the article meets criteria 3-5. That eliminates a potential drive by rating from other projects. There was a lot of concern over having to reassess all of the start articles to look for C's but that seemed rather overwhelming so we decided just to rate new articles with the class and reassess others as we run into them. In the few weeks since, we're only holding about 150 C articles currently. There is a disproportionate gap between start and B and in my observations there are a lot of start articles that are only missing one or two criteria to become B; mostly it's the lack of inline citations. A C rating might give editors an area to work in to bring those up to B without much effort. --Brad (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

A clear frenzy of activity in the last three days. Is that an indicator that there is little appetite to discuss this. Anyway, from my perspective, adding C class appears a bit nugatory, it takes us up to seven quality classes, which is more than a military analyst would use. It also pushes both quality gateways towards the top of the scale. Notwithstanding the actual value of the additional rules creep I do recognise that the majority rules and it's highly likely that the classification will be imposed on the project, predominantly as a result of fly-by assessment or dual project tagging where there will be an impetus around imposing it to avoid disparity. It does all seem a bit nugatory, but as with so much else it'll end up becoming the norm. Whilst we may not see the need for it in MilHist I'd suggest that what we do need to do is identify how we can impliment it with the minimum hassle and diversion of effort. (can you tell that I think it's 'kin pointless) ALR (talk) 11:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Support per Brad101 (WP:SHIPS' solution) (if this is even a vote =D) the_ed17 00:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I support the WP:SHIPS solution also. FWIW, I was a proponent of that solution, but I missed the change-over there! I must be getting old in my middle-age! - BillCJ (talk) 02:16, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I May not be as skeptical as ALR, but he brings a good point. It may seem to be a great idea, but does really need to be done? What problem does it fix, and is it worth the effort? Perhaps we can explore that angle a little more before we start casting votes. bahamut0013♠♣ 11:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the need for it, yes yes, bureaucracy is nice and comforting and structure has its uses, but I think that this goes a little too far. That you need sources to get an article out of start class is a good thing, and should remain as incentive. Narson (talk) 12:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

bureaucracy is only nice and comforting to a very special kind of person; REMFs.

Structure and process should only be supported where they add value and don't get in the way of conducting operations and achieving the objective. First principle of war - Selection and Maintenance of the aim. If the aim is to bog down Wikipedia in superfluous process steps and nugatory admin burden then someone is succeeding :)

ALR (talk) 17:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I will not repeat my arguments here, but if you go in the talk page of WP:GREECE you'll see why I regard this category as useless and a "burden". Quality scale before the adoption of C-Class was already comprehensive. No reason to add another category.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Yannismarou. There is no real need to adopt another class, and besides, it isn't really that hard to achieve a B-class article, and what would we rather? A vast range of C-class articles or B-class? We have the B-class check lists for a reason; it acts as a guide to measure how close an article is to B-class. What is the point of adopting C-class when it will do basicly the same thing? Well, there is my two cents to opose C-class. Abraham, B.S. (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I support the C-Class thing. I think that even though it is easy to achieve C-Class, having an article isted as C by many projects and Start by this one makes one wonder. I whink that we might as well try this in a democratic way again. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Although this discussion has now been open for nearly six weeks, there have been even fewer participants than at the original discussion and I cannot see much support for introducing C-class. May I suggest that we perhaps defer this by six months, and revisit the question about the time of the March 2009 coordinator elections? This will give us all an opportunity to see how C-class is working elsewhere and re-evaluate it in that context. Can the supporters of C-Class live with this? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 06:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Comment, I see what you mean but I also think that since this started from a simple question, some people might not read the comment area correctly. I think that a more formal proposal might invite more people to join in. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Harry Murray now open

The A-Class review for Harry Murray is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks!

Partner peer review for Europa Barbarorum now open

The peer review for Europa Barbarorum, an article within the scope of the Video games WikiProject, is now open. The Video games WikiProject is currently partnering with our project to share peer reviews, so all editors are cordially invited to participate, and any input there would be very appreciated! Thanks! It Is Me Here (talk) 08:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Fixed link. It Is Me Here (talk) 16:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Russian Ground Forces

Russian Ground Forces has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.

Request for FLC input

Currently the FLC for List of Indian Mutiny Victoria Cross recipients has had little input. It is currently reaching the point where consensus cannot be adequately judged. Would anyone with any spare time, please review the list against the FLC criteria and comment accordingly. Thanks. Woody (talk) 23:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyone spare a few minutes to review this? It would be very much appreciated. Thanks. Woody (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Now closed as promoted, thanks to all who commented. Regards. Woody (talk) 17:15, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Atlantique Incident v Operation Searchlight

I recently was doing some copyediting on the Atlantique Incident and Operation Searchlight articles and noticed the disparity in quality ratings (GA v. B) which seemed completely unwarranted to me. I don't know whether this is the forum to raise the concern, but it's not easy to figure out where to go, and quality ratings are not an area I want to spend much time with.Vontrotta (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Anyone can assign a B-rating by doing a check against the project criteria. Good Article requires a review via a specific process external to the project - on a very quick glance Searchlight doesn't appear to have sufficient citations for it to pass GA at this stage - there are many paragraphs completely uncited. David Underdown (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but my real concern was that Atlantique seemed to be overrated when compared with a number of the India-pakistani military B articles that I had been editing. I was also amazed to see Kargil War rated as a feature article when I got to it; it is certainly better than some, but there were some major copyediting needs that I thought were required. But you answered my question whether the project was the right place to bring this. I was just hoping there was an easy place to send a note when I thought an article was overated. Guess not, but thanks anyway.Vontrotta (talk) 06:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If you think it shouldn't be a GA, Good Article review is what you're looking for. David Underdown (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, Kargil War was promoted in early 2006, when standards were very low. WP:FAR is available if you wish. Also, sometimes GAC can be a bit random. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

thanks everyone.Vontrotta (talk) 10:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Kargil War

Kargil War has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vontrotta (talk • contribs) 12:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested name change

Pkkphysicist (talk · contribs) has requested that Battle of Hurtgen Forest be renamed and moved to Battle of Hürtgen Forest. All editors are invited to comment on this request at Talk:Battle of Hurtgen Forest#Requested move. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.166.142 (talk • contribs) 06:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I am suggesting merges for the Afghanistan years 2001 / 2002 / 2003 / 2004 .. Any comments?

The page Timeline of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) is a mismatch of different styles. However, I suggest that all months be moved into one year 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. While I understand the idea behind the different months, two of the busiest years for Coalition forces in Afghanistan have been in 2006 and 2007 where the format was changed again. Comments on each years page !! Jez ☎ ✉ ✍ 20:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Bluenorway#Vessel_Full_Form_Naming_Convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bluenorway#Vessel_Full_Form_Naming_Convention Bluenorway (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is a proposal or what, but a better place to address any concerns you may have about existing practice would be at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ships) — Bellhalla (talk) 18:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Harry Murray FA candidate

Hi, I just thought I would let everyone know that Harry Murray is currently a Featured Article candidate, and anyone willing to comment on (or support!) the article is invited to do so. Thanks, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 04:50, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I just thought I would remind everyone that Harry Murray is still a Featured Article candidate and that the reviews have been a bit slow lately, so could anyone with a minute or two to spare please review the article against the FA criteria and post their comments on the review page? Thanks in advance, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 00:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Harry Murray has now been promoted to Featured Article status. Thanks to those who commented or supported the article's promotion. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 04:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War 2) now open

The peer review for Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War 2) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 00:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for SS Minnesotan now open

The A-Class review for SS Minnesotan is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 00:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for SS Montanan now open

The A-Class review for SS Montanan is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 00:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Task force tagging

Since I've just managed to get back into the swing of things after summer break, I thought I'd start simple by working on the Category: Military history articles with no associated task force. However, right of the bat, I've run into a bit of an issue. Seems a large numb of disambiguation pages are in that file, and they either don't seem worth putting into task forces or even if I attempted to, they could have dozens of them (ie. 1st Cavalry has links to US, Soviet, British, French, etc). What to do? Cromdog (talk) 01:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Are they tagged as Dab-Class? That shouldn't be generating the TF needed category, but perhaps there's a mistake in the template code; some examples of this behavior would be very useful. Kirill ^(prof) 01:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

1st Cavalry, 1st Cavalry Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division, and 4th Engineer Battalion all do it. At that point I stopped. I'm assuming it's the code. Cromdog (talk) 02:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, it was the code; thanks for spotting this issue! I've changed the template to no longer go through those checks when the article is marked as a disambiguation page; they should clear out of the category in the near future. Kirill ^(prof) 02:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the template could be tweaked to take NA pages out of the calculation too? Thoughts? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 05:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It's possible in theory, but it would be considerably more difficult. As the code is set up now, tagging a page as DAB-Class eliminates not only this category, but also everything that normally appears in the "Additional information" block of the template. This isn't a practical issue at the moment, as nothing there is applicable to disambiguation pages; but there are things which are relevant to some NA-Class pages. Unless we want to lose those features, we'd need to rework the code to do the exclusions explicitly. Kirill ^(prof) 01:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. My specific question was prompted by the large number of Category talk pages in Category:Military history articles with no associated task force, most of which seem to have bot-tagged for Milhist. Can you think of an easy solution for dealing with them? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 06:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, actually; as it turns out, there's a very obvious solution that I hadn't thought of. I've changed the template to generate a distinct "class" for each non-article namespace; the subsidiary content is therefore now selectable by namespace. I've left it enabled for images and portals (since those sometimes go through project reviews and so forth), and disabled it for user pages, project pages, categories, and templates. Please let me know if any of that needs to be changed (or if these changes broke anything else in the template). Kirill ^(prof) 03:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Kirill :) That works very well indeed. No problems that I can see. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 05:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks...taking those templates out saved me an awful lot of headaches. Cromdog (talk) 15:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Err...I take that back...maybe its my comp, but I'm still seeing the tags on them. Cromdog (talk) 03:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I have also seen the DAB pages in this category so it's not just you :) As Kirill says, it'll take a bit of time before the template updates and the DAB pages are removed from the category. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 05:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, now I can get back to working on this some more. Cromdog (talk) 15:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving articles

Sigh...another technical question. Several recent articles, such as Greco-Persian Wars, have been moved to a different title. However, this seems to have destroyed the links to their Peer-reviews and A-class reviews, which are still listed under the old title of the article. (In the given example, it was moved to use a different dash in the title.) How is this fixed? Cromdog (talk) 17:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Easiest is probably to move the missing components to reflect the new name. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 17:52, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think reverting some moves might also be a solution. This seems somehow fishy to me and I know of a history of POV issues with GPW. Wandalstouring (talk) 16:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Chief of Operations

What does a chief of operations do and should we have an article on this (currently red linked). RJFJR (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to amend Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Style guide-Naming conventions-Units, formations, and bases, Part 2

This discussion has been revived and this time I will make sure that everyone will be able to input on it. This way it will not fade away without a decision. I am also including the corrections suggested by Kirill as he was able to fix up part of a suggestion for me. To see the old discussion, click on the following link: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_80#Proposal_to_amend_Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history.2FStyle_guide-Naming_conventions-Units.2C_formations.2C_and_bases

Please note that the comments are here purely for the reason that these people don't have to restate their opinion.

As seen from the the discussion above about the overuse of the disambiguator (United States), there are many people who think that its use has been stretched out of the context of its original purpose. I propose that we amend the naming conventions so that we can let people know that this is unneeded most of the time. Below is a link to the naming conventions for this topic: Wikipedia:MILMOS#UNITNAME

What follows is the part that this discussion really focuses on:

For units, the optional disambiguator should be the common name of the country whose armed forces the unit belongs to (as in 4th Infantry Division (United Kingdom)), or, if such usage is still ambiguous (or where the unit does not serve a country), the name of the service branch to which the unit belongs (as in 1st Panzer Division (Wehrmacht)). The disambiguator is not necessary in cases where the name of the country is already present in the name of the unit (as in The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada), or where the name is clearly unique (as in Preobrazhensky regiment).

In cases where a unit's name can reasonably be expected to be used by multiple armed forces—particularly in the case of numerical unit designations—the units should generally be pre-emptively disambiguated when the article is created, without waiting for the appearance of a second article on an identically-named unit. If this is done, the un-disambiguated version of the unit name should be created as a disambiguation page (or a redirect to the disambiguated version).

Basically, the disambiguation was originally intended to be used for units that share similar names with European nations. This stems out of them being created before the armed forces diversified. Units with names that include "Infantry Division" or "Cavalry Division" share names with other countries. People have now used this term so liberally that almost every unit of the U.S. Army has the disambiguation attached to it. Most of the time, this is unneeded, but sometimes it does make sense. This is really unneeded for units that have "Maneuver Enhancement Brigade" or "Sustainment Brigade" attached to their name are unique to the United States. This is becoming ridiculous and I think that this needs to be addressed because it is getting out of hand.

The following sentence from the second paragraph leads like this and should have the following added to it (The suggested addition is in bold):

In cases where a unit's name can reasonably be expected to be used by multiple armed forces—particularly in the case of numerical unit designations—the units should generally be preemptively disambiguated when the article is created, without waiting for the appearance of a second article on an identically-named unit. If this is done, the un-disambiguated version of the unit name should be created as a disambiguation page (or a redirect to the disambiguated version). Preemptive disambiguation should only be used when there may be a reasonable need for it; designations whose forms are unique to a particular country (such as the 92nd Maneuver Enhancement Brigade) or which carry numbers sufficiently high as to not be likely to occur in other militaries (such as the 101st Engineer Battalion) should not be preemptively.

This should follow the paragraph that is above:

For units that are unique in name to a country, they should be created without a disambiguator. This keeps many units from having an unnecessary ending tagged onto them. For example, the U.S. Army's 101st Engineer Battalion does not need to have the disambiguation added to it because no other country has a battalion with that high of a number. The 4th Engineer Battalion name is shared by both Belgium and the United States and should thus include the disambiguator. If you are in doubt about the usage of a name by different countries, do a quick Wikipedia or other search engine search. If the name of the unit is used by another country, you can add a disambiguator to it. If it is not, then do not add one.

Occassionally, another country will create a new unit or change the name of a unit so that it shares the name with another unit from a different country. If this is the case, move the old unit to a new page with the disambiguator added and create the page for the new unit and also put a disambiguator on it. For the old page, turn it into a disambiguation with links to the units in both countries.

I think that if we amend the naming conventions so that people know that this is unneeded, people will be less inclined to do something that might be disliked by others. People seem to respond to authority on this site and by letting them know that there are rules regarding the overuse of disambiguations, they might think before they act.

I understand that others do not agree with me and have suggested that we move the pages back. I tried that and people who moved it cited the rules. I believe that by changing this information, people will be able to understand that the disambiguation is unnecessary most of the time and we really should think before we make unnecessary changed to perfectly good page names. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not a bad general idea, in my opinion; but I think the text goes into rather more detail on routine editing practice than is helpful for a guideline. I'd suggest that we could get the same effect from a much briefer addition:

In cases where a unit's name can reasonably be expected to be used by multiple armed forces—particularly in the case of numerical unit designations—the units should generally be preemptively disambiguated when the article is created, without waiting for the appearance of a second article on an identically-named unit. If this is done, the un-disambiguated version of the unit name should be created as a disambiguation page (or a redirect to the disambiguated version). Preemptive disambiguation should only be used when there may be a reasonable need for it; designations whose forms are unique to a particular country (such as the 92nd Maneuver Enhancement Brigade) or which carry numbers sufficiently high as to not be likely to occur in other militaries (such as the 101st Engineer Battalion) should not be preemptively disambiguated.

Somewhat more substantively, I'm not convinced about discouraging preemptive disambiguation purely on the basis of the unit having a high number; once we start getting more thorough coverage of Soviet & Chinese units, which have absurdly high numbering schemes, a batallion number in the hundreds will be nothing special. Kirill ^(prof) 03:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I've been asked to comment here by Kevin. I agree completely with the thrust of his argument; we do not need to preemptively disambiguate everything, and it should be carefully done. I would advocate that we adopt Kirill's slightly amended version as a basis for further discussion. I've been working with Soviet line or rifle armies, which carry numbers up to 70. I have been removing the disambiguator (Soviet Union) from the 65th - 70th Armies because as far as I know, even the Chinese did not have a 70th Army. Comments on this are welcome. Buckshot06(prof) 07:27, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with what Kirill says concerning the amending of my proposal. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 00:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I am one of the people who is involved in adding the disambiguator to unit pages. I thought I'd put up my rationales for doing so, to add to the discussion.

1. Unit names, especially the ones that are numbered, are by nature not very clear. Right now we're just scratching the surface of all the military units that can be included on the encyclopedia, and I fear that not putting the disambiguator on these pages will create confusion in the future. There are a lot of countries in the world with Airborne, Infantry, Armored, or Cavalry units, but some (such as "maneuver enhancement") are exclusive to one nation only for now. The disambiguator makes it much more clear which unit a person is looking at from the outset.
2. I would be unsure about when exactly the disambiguator would be needed and when it wouldn't. If we remove the national disambig on all the units that are unique now, then it will create a mess for the creation of future units. The 101st Airborne Division is the only "101st Division" on the encyclopedia right now, so by policy it would only be right to remove the "United States" from its title. What happend when the Russian 101st Infantry Division page is created? We will need to go back to the page and add the disambiguator again. Will we need to add it to the "101st Airborne Division" page because it is Airborne and not infantry?, even though it began as an infantry unit? All that said, the rule will make things very convoluted. On top of that, there are all kinds of style things that would make the system problematically complex. For example, America doesn't officially have a 2nd Armored Division, it has a 2d Armored Division. Britian doesn't have one either, since they have a 2nd Armoured Division. For the sake of the average person who is just looking for the right page, it makes more sense to me if the "2nd Armored Division" page disambiguates to two pages with (US) and (UK) titles. Its easier to tell the difference with the national title at the end, rather than change the spelling of each title to match each nation's absurd little variations on the name, which we would have to do just to determine whether they needed national titles or not.
3. This would simply create more work for us. In order to enact this policy, we would have to:
   1. Check every single unit (ie- 101st Infantry Division (United States))
   2. Check if that unit is the only one with an article on wikipedia in order to determine if the "(United States)" needs to be taken out. (this one is, for now)
   3. Check if there are any units in history that are notable enough to be included in Wikipedia someday (like the Russian, Chineese, and Japaneese 101st Infantry Divisions) Because if so, we would be removing the "(United States)" only to have to add it again later.
   4. Check that there is a disambiguation page with redlinks to all the other units that will eventually be created.
   5. Move all existing units to their official titles ("2d" Divisions, "Armoured" divisions) so that each title specifies exactly which unit we're officially talking about in its title. Otherwise, we would need to add more 'out of hand' "(nation)" disambiguators in each title. An unnecessarily complex process.

The system already works fine. It is unfortunate that the existance of these "(nation)" disambiguators can create a problem for some, but they are the best system that I see for organizing units, and for clarity's sake, they should be included on all unit pages. It is best, in my opinion, if there is a uniform standard for unit names, which makes things easier and simpler in both writing the articles and organizing them. -Ed!^(talk)_{(Hall of Fame)} 23:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

CommentI think that this would be a bad idea. So what if we have to search for units. A little work doesn't hurt. Besides, most countries do not have units that share names with the United States. Many countries share names with the United States. This doesn't mean that China might create an Infantry Division because each country has its own naming rules. This is not meant to burden us but rather to give a better reason for not having hundreds of unnecessary disambiguators. I would personally be happy to do what you said above because it will help get rid of unnecessary baggage to title names. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 00:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment Leave 'em. Better needless dabs than needed ones absent. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 23:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The current text ultimately says the same thing as the proposed change, and there's no need for instruction creep on what should be a simple rule of thumb. Nick Dowling (talk) 10:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for Gilbert_du_Motier,_marquis_de_Lafayette now open

The peer review for Gilbert_du_Motier,_marquis_de_Lafayette is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Operation Lüttich now open

The A-Class review for Operation Lüttich is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for SS Ohioan (1914) now open

The A-Class review for SS Ohioan (1914) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

List of battles by casualties

I put a template on the article List of battles by casualties threatening to delete all unsourced material and after several month I did exactly that. Ever since there have been attacks by IP editors and now wikipedians reverting my 'vandalism'. Their argument is that I have no right to delete the unsourced work of others and some material is just unsourced in this article, but is sourced in another wikipedia article, so it should count as sourced. Currently, two editors have ganged up on me and we are 1-2 other wikipedians editing the article that has a grim history of edit warring. The new sourced material that has been inserted since my removal of unsourced content has been deleted in favor of the old unsourced version. I don't think somebody caring about sources would do that. I will ask an admin to do what he thinks necessary with the article until this issue has been solved. Wandalstouring (talk) 17:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

To explain why I oppose this deleting, let me show the paragraph taken from the World War II article.

The Soviet Union and the United States emerged from the war as the world's leading superpowers. This set the stage for the Cold War, which lasted for the next 45 years. The United Nations was formed in the hope of preventing another such conflict. The self determination spawned by the war accelerated decolonization movements in Asia and Africa, while Western Europe itself began moving toward integration.
There is no direct reference there, therefore, according to Wandalstouring (if I understand him correct), the whole paragraph should be removed, because it is unsourced.
I cannot understand why the Battle of Berlin item, for instance (that was removed by Wandalstouring), is considered to be unsourced if any reader in one click can go there and obtain all needed numbers supported by references to high reputable sources. There are at least 3 different sources there describing losses of each side in details. In contrast, every new reference introduced after Wandalstouring deleted "unsourced" items was supported by only one reference and validity of that source is somewhat disputable. Therefore, I don't think that improved the article.
In conclusion, I support reversal of the editing done by Wandalstouring with subsequent deletion of those items citing poorly or inappropriately sourced Wikipedia articles. However, I wouldn't say most WWII articles to belong to the latter category. --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The para you refer to in the World War II article is in the lead section, and the text of lead sections generally doesn't need to be cited as long as any facts/claims made are cited when they appear in the body of the article (see: WP:LEADCITE). That para is cited in the 'Aftermath' section of the article. It seems to me that Wandalstouring gave appropriate notice, and that if he's removed material which is supported by reliable sources in other articles then you should restore the material with the citation to the list. Citing reliable sources is not optional in any articles, and Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Nick Dowling (talk) 00:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

As I being User:dt23 was the one who allerted Wandalstouring of possible reprocutions as a result of his editing of so called "unsourced" articles and refrences i believe that the sources for those articles removed are well within Wikipedia guidlines. I believe Wandalstouring should be punished for his reoccuring edits. (which may start more edit wars with others)--Dt23 (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

A few quotes for those who believe that citations are not necessary. The first one here is from an essay (Wikipedia:Reliable source examples)"Are wikis reliable sources? Wikis, including Wikipedia and other wikis sponsored by the Wikimedia Foundation, are not regarded as reliable sources." The second one here is from WP:RS "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."

Both of these say that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and therefore, that a wikipedia article on a specific battle is not a reliable source for that battle. Simply because an article contains a citation for a piece of information does not mean that that information does not need a citation anywhere else it appears on wikipedia. By that reasoning, if I cited that, for example, Omar Bradley commanded an Army Group in World War II on his biography, I wouldn't need to cite that it was commanded by him on the Army Group's talk page. All information must be cited every time it appears. Joe (Talk) 20:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Do I understand correct that usage of any reference is impossible, because, "Wikipedia article are not a reliable source". In other words, any reference must be accompanied by external citation. And, if the daughter article cites several sources on this account the link will look like this, because each source relates to the topic and each of them cannot be omited. I think, you agree that would be ridiculous.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct. Wikipedia isn't a suitable reference for Wikipedia articles, and on topics where reliable sources differ it's appropriate to cite all the sources. For casualty figures where sources differ no more than two references are needed - one for the lowest reliably sourced figure and one for the highest. These can be combined into a single reference like User:Cla68 has done for the articles on the Guadalcanal Campaign to avoid ugly multiple citation flags. Nick Dowling (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree completly thats why I revesed Wandalstouring edits. Not only are most articles on wikipedia not sourced in that manor but it would be imposible to do so. I issued the warning to him because deleting peoples hard work like that over and over again(look at the history of the article list of battles by death toll ) is simply wrong and against guidlines.--Dt23 (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

What guidelines are you referring to? Nick Dowling (talk) 00:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has guidlines as to how its users carry out there activities. Some guidlines are about writing and sourcing articles. And the articles I brought back in list of battles by death toll are properly refrenced. Wandalstouring constant removal of such articles destroyed peoples hard work. Work that met the guidlines of wikipedia. That is why I sent User:Wandalstouring the warning.Dt23 (talk) 01:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If people wish to contribute to Wikipedia, they must follow these guidelines, and these guidelines clearly state that specific facts and statistics must be cited. Work that is not cited is not verifiable, and WP:V is one of Wikipedia's Core Policies. Regardless of whether or not the information is cited in the main article about a battle, it still should be cited in other places where that information is listed, in this case the deadliest battles article. The guidelines are indeed very important, and Wandalstouring and I are trying to make sure they are enforced on this page. Joe (Talk) 02:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If you are so concerned about that why didn't you simply insert appropriate references from the corresponding articles? To my opinion, it would be better to leave the article in the pre-Wandalstouring state and gradually introduce references, than de facto delete the whole article. I see now that would I start doing that by myself I, probably, wasted less time than I have already done in that discussion. Therefore, my proposals are: You request unlocking the article and restore it in the present form. Then we go to appropriate papers and introduce relevant references. Items having no appropriate sources are removed. I'll try to take care of Eastern Front battles, although can't promise to do that fast. Is it acceptable for you?--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

This is similar to something I suggested earlier: by all means copy over the battles, as long as the sources are also copied over. If you'd like to do that, that would be great, otherwise, I'll get to it in a couple weeks once I finish some other things I'm working on currently. Joe (Talk) 03:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok. But I would prefer to delete disputable items from old version rather than re-insert items into the almost empty article decoy. I see no considerable problem if the article will exist in the incomplete form for a while.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a relatively simplistic problem. Just cite the stuff (which doesn't take long), and then you're good to go. the issue with "list of battles by death toll" is that it is a high-traffic list. Everything on the higher-profile lists needs to be cited. Cam (Chat) 04:18, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Another issue is that you deleted references made by Joe. That is vandalsim and you have to restore all of them within three days, otherwise I call an admin to take action on Dt23. Deleting referenced material is one of the biggest sins you can commit in wikipedia.

You are free to source whatever you find references for . The rest will be deleted at the end of this month. You had time since February to do this and the template on top of the article states the wikipolicy of deleting unsourced material. Removing such a template is another violation of wikipolicy and I could call an admin to take action on Dt23 for doing that. So do respect that I made several attempts to solve this via discussion and not seeking outright vengeance on newbies violating the policies. Wandalstouring (talk) 10:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The reason I removed the template is Wandalstouring had plassed there without just cause. If someone where to put a template warning of spam on a pefectly good page then there would be choas. I believe Wandalstouring should be heavily punished for vandalism and deleting months possibly even years of hard work. What gives him the right to asert his false jurisdiction on a perfectly well sourced page. Thats why I took action. The people of Wikipedia dont deserve to have there hard work destroyed because Wandalstouring said they were "unsourced". I call upon the people of Wikipedia to stand up once and for ALL to have this vandal Wandalstouring punished to the highest extent of the Wikipedian Law. That is why I sent the warning , thats why I reversed his vandalism ,and thats why I removed the template.--Dt23 (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Please, read the discussion above. We have agreed that the information must have a source there, making what you say a moot point. And, as also said above, hard work is meaningless if it is not properly sourced, per Wikipedia guidelines. Wandalstouring has also worked very hard on this and other articles in this project, so, if I were you, I would recommend not removing and undoing his work without discussing it with him, as well as removing the template. You can hardly call upon us to "stand up" to this "vandal" when he is undoubtedly acting in good faith and trying, like you and I, to make this encyclopedia and article as comprehensive and accurate as possible. Joe (Talk) 16:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. This vandal has destroyed well SOURCED work without just cause. He acted un responsibly and again without just cause. That is called vandalism , destroying hard "well sourced" work. He did not act in the best intrest of wikipedia in best intrest of himself. Thats why I sent the warning , reversed his vandalism , and removed the template.Sincerly--Dt23 (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Wandalstouring has not removed sourced material. If you examine the history of the article, you will find that all the information that he removed was not sourced properly. He only removed this information after making notes on the talk page and adding referencing templates. However, when no references were added, he removed the information, to comply with WP:V. Joe (Talk) 20:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Dear Borg. Frankly, I opposed Wandalstouring mostly because his behaviour looks questionable from the point of view of conventional scientific community and common sense. While doing that I absolutely missed the fact that Wikipedia articles are a subject of constant changes. Therefore, formally he is right. The only thing I cannot understand is: if Wandalstouring worked hard on this article, why most of the items there still remained unsourced until the global deletion he performed? If he is really willing to improve that article the best way to do that would be to introduce references where it is possible and then delete a remaining garbage. Therefore, the Dt23's point of view is understandable, although formally he is not right. I would propose to stop talking about sanctions and punishments and to start improving the article instead.
And I wouldn't say that speaking in the manner Wandalstouring is doing (You are free to source whatever you find references for . The rest will be deleted at the end of this month. You had time since February to do this and the template on top of the article states the wikipolicy of deleting unsourced material.) is the best way to create an atmosphere of friendly and productive collaboration. Especially, taking into account that Wandalstouring (in contrast to Dt23) is not a novice in Wikipedia.
Regards, --Paul Siebert (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to comment on Wandalstouring's behavior, but here's a plan to try to solve the problem: revert dt23's edit right before it was protected (to [1], then go along, add every single battle you can think of (I'll help too), and also add the reference for it that appears on another article. That way, the material is still there (which you want) and still cited (which I want). That way, everyone can be happy, and there won't be any need for Wandalstouring or anyone else to make posts which anyone could possibly want to question. Joe (Talk) 20:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

As noted by Joe, none of the material Wandalstouring removed back in July was supported by a citation [2]. Dt23 did not provide any citations for the material they re-added [3]. Nick Dowling (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing is not the only problem

How do we rank battles when we have several figures of the number dead? Why should one battle be ranked higher just because the ancient writers who are the sources for those battles indulged in greater flights of fancy? Why should some battles be ranked higher because the modern historians of those periods have been less willing than others to subject those claims to critical scrutiny?Dejvid (talk) 12:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes casualty reports are always sketchy. I recall a description of a battle in the book of judges in which it was claimed 300 men killed 120,000 men by raiding their camp during the night. More than likely it was only a few hundred, perhaps a 1,200 at most.--Serviam (talk) 13:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Im resigning

Today I am grieved to state that not only am going to have to withdraw from the conflict but I shall have to resign. Im afraid as a former US Marine Corps officer I have ben called into active duty in Afghanistan. There fore in the best intrest of Wikipedia and its diligent users I shall resign. Thank you for your time. For The Last Time , Sincerly --Dt23 (talk) 13:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure I join with all of us here in wishing you the very best of luck as well as a safe and speedy return. Thank you very much indeed for your contributions to the project. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 13:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, good luck, and we hope you get back safely.--Serviam (talk) 13:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep your head down & your butt covered. Come back safe & whole. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 13:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hope you get back safely and thanks for doing your bit for Afghanistan.Dejvid (talk) 13:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. My thanks for your contribution to the project, and best wishes for a quick and safe return. Esteemed Regards, Cam (Chat) 20:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who you are, and I have never seen you on Wikipedia before. But that doesn't matter. I already know that you are one of the bravest people I know. Regardless of what people/the media say about the war here, you guys are doing a humanitarian service there...never lose hope. Friend, good luck to you, and come home safely. ^-talk- the_ed17 ^-contribs- 20:53, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Chances are good that you come back and do some good editing. Wandalstouring (talk) 08:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Stay safe. We will be praying for your safe return to the states. Semper Fi. TomStar81 (Talk) 09:13, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for Murray Maxwell now open

The peer review for Murray Maxwell is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Nick Dowling (talk) 01:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Erm, what as that British battle?

I read a quote once, moons ago, about a British battle, probably WWI, with appalling losses for the British. It was so appalling that... if I remember the quote correctly.. some politician or general or other was trying to rebuild the British army, and someone remarked, "Can't you see, you're fighting against X?" where X is the name of the battle... sorry so vague. Thanks in advance. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 15:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but it could be several. Probably, if it's WWI, it's the Battle of the Somme or the Third Battle of Ypres. Maybe the Gallipoli Campaign, but since that was mainly Commonwealth forces it's less likely. Somme and Third Ypres were the ones with the most British casualties, Somme most famously so, as the first day of the offensive was the bloodiest day in the history of the British army, ever, with over 60,000 casualties. Joe (Talk) 16:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

My question is obviously too vague, and I appreciate your excellent answer. I'll look into those battles. Thanks! Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 05:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you tried to find a book of military quotations? I've seen one (but the online catalog can't find it...) at my local library, so if your local is half as good, a reference librarian ought to be able to point you. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 05:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks once again! That's a good idea... will try... Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Try Wikipedia's reference desk: there's some good people there who are great at finding obscure half-remembered quotes and elusive information. Gwinva (talk) 09:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC) In fact, I've copied your question there; hope that's alright. Gwinva (talk) 09:38, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Task force 'holes'?

As I've been going through the articles without task forces and tagging them, I've noticed a few apparent gaps in coverage. While a number of articles (people, weapons, vehicles, etc) have task forces specifically for them, some types of articles can only be classified by country currently (battles, military units, medals and decorations, etc). The problem with this is that there are several nations with a significant number of articles that I don't know if an existing task force already covers them. I've already asked about Afghanistan and Pakistan at the Middle Eastern task force. However, I have coverage questions concerning Sri Lanka, Ireland, Hungary (as well as several other European nations outside current task forces), Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean, and North American military history outside of colonial issues (wars among Native American tribes for example or Mesoamerican peoples).

There may already be rules or projects covering these cases, and if so, I would appreciate being informed of them. Thanks Cromdog (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I had once suggested something like a "European Military History Task Force" that would include everything from the British Isles to the Urals. British, French, etc. could be made as subordinate TFs to it, something like ARW is to Early Modern, or Weaponry is to Technology. We could do a Central American TF too, but I've noticed fewer articles that would fall under that that currently have none than would in a European TF. Dunno, maybe noone would like my idea, but hey, might as well throw it out there. Joe (Talk) 16:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The thing that we have to remember is that task forces are not a way of classifying articles; they are a way of pooling resources and editors around a particular topic. I don't think we should be making any new task forces that don't have a good number of editors willing to make a start of them, and make them a productive feature. If you have an idea about a task force that you think would be a benefit, then suggest it here and see if anyone else is willing to sign up and help get it going. Regards. Woody (talk) 21:32, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I think we could use a Latin America task force, combining anything in the Western Hemisphere south of the US border.--King Bedford I ^{Seek his grace} 21:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Latin America can have a variety of meanings and can include or exclude, depending on what definition one is using, non-Spanish- and non-Portuguese-speaking countries. How about something along the lines of Joe above with an "Americas Task Force" with US and Canada as subordinates? — Bellhalla (talk) 21:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The difficulty with creating subordinate task forces is that each of those task-forces already has a significant number of articles in their own collection. I would suggest "Central and South-American Military History Task Force". Keep Canadian and US Military History separate. Cam (Chat) 23:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It should also be considered that the Spanish Military History task force includes South American and some North American military history between the late 1400s and the early 1800s (beginning of colonization to the end of the colonies in the Americas). JonCatalán (talk) 04:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Bad Axe Massacre

Hi all. I am looking for tips on Bad Axe Massacre for an FA bid in the near future. Anything missing from the article or glaring problems pointed out, these are the things that would be appreciated greatly. Thank you ahead of time for anyone who has a moment to stop by and leave some comments or make some edits. --IvoShandor (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Your best bet would be a Milhist A-Class review. The standard is close to FAC. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 21:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The article should probably be renamed "Battle of Bad Axe" to avoid POV. JonCatalán (talk) 15:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Casualty Counts- Manual of Style

During reviews, I came across a usage of N/A for casualty count. I would like to have the word unknown set as the style standard in this area. Geoff Plourde (talk) 22:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this a big problem and have you encountered difficulties simply editing the data yourself from "N/A" to "Unknown"? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 16:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I want to set it as a standard as some editors seem to be using N/A. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

The easiest way to change the style guide is to suggest draft text here and then leave it a week or so to see what the reactions to it are. If there's consensus for the change, then go ahead and modify the style guide. That said, I should mention that changing the style guide won't stop editors using "N/A". --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 14:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

"N/A" should not be used because it's ambiguous: by definition, it can mean "not applicable" (no casualties) or "not available" (number of casualties unknown). The style guide should probably recommend using "none" and "unknown", respectively. —Kevin Myers 19:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, "N/A" is ambiguous, though it's an ambiguity that appears in probably thousands of tables and info boxes right across Wikipedia. At the moment, MilMoS says very little about casualties (though there's a general injunction to cite sources for all quoted figures) even though they're hugely contentious ... --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 14:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

There's a note (which could probably use further refinement) about this in the infobox instructions now, so there's something concrete to point people to. I'm not sure if it's something that needs a MoS entry in and of itself, though; we haven't really gone into detail on the specifics of each infobox field there, but only link to the more detailed instructions. Kirill ^(prof) 01:50, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

An interesting question is whether this ought to be limited just to casualties or given much wider currency. For instance, we could include a note on all our info boxes along the following lines:

Avoid the ambiguous abbreviation "N/A", and instead use "unknown" or "none". All subjective or qualitative judgements and numerical quantities or statistics must be footnoted to a reliable source (see WP:MILMOS#Cite).

Thoughts? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 04:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

This is a really good idea. As one of the best military resources on the internet, people expect quality, not ambiguities. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

FA review for Battle of Incheon

Battle of Incheon has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

NFCC Image Policy and Uniformed Professionals

I thought this discussion at NFCC Talk maybe of interest to those in the project military history. Normally non-free images of living people are not permitted by policy as there remains the possibility of a free image whilst they're alive. However there is an exemption for for some retired or disbanded groups, or retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance, a new picture may not serve the same purpose as an image taken during their career, in which case the use would be acceptable. As military personnel have the uniform as an essential part of their image, it may be that images of uniformed professionals fall under this exemption. On that basis I've proposed a simple 4 hurdle test for images to decide whether they conform with policy and would welcome additional input. Justin talk 08:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Battle of Marion now open

The A-Class review for Battle of Marion is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Woody (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Operation Epsom now open

The A-Class review for Operation Epsom is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 18:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Military history

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Continual vandalism by school kids to battle pages

Hi there, As soon as the school year starts certain battles become a target for vandalism as WWI, the Napoleonic wars, the American Civil war and so on are on the syllabus. E.g. Battle of the Somme, where apart from one edit, all edits since 2 September have vandalism or reverting vandalism, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_the_Somme&action=history . When I try to get pages semi-protected (see Talk:Battle of the Somme#Time to lock all these Battle pages ?) the admins on the Wikipedia:Requests for page protection decline on the ground that the level of vandalism isn't high enough to justify semi-protection. Apart from the complete waste of everyone's time and energy, as User:Rcbutcher wrote to me "Allowing these pages to be open to such corruption is an insult to the men who suffered and died in these battles." Does the Military history project have a friendly admin whom we could ask to semi-protect pages for us? This problem won't go away until school finishes next July. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 08:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

For info, there's a list of admins in Milhist here. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 08:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely here... First Battle of Ypres has just gone through a cycle of vandal attacks and reversals. It is really disrespectful to the dead to allow web pages about battles to be continually vandalised. Such sensitive pages which act as a magnet to vandals should be protected, and only users who have posted e.g. 20 good-quality updates should be allowed update access to such pages. It is disgraceful for Wikipedia to have online a page about a major and bloody battle, which contains crude sexual and homophobic insults - the typical types of vandalism. Rod. Rcbutcher (talk) 08:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I am. That's the benefit of being an admin I guess. If some useless clown keeps on vandalising a page, I can lock it, especially if I'm the only one patrolling it. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 08:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, YellowMonkey, for protecting both the pages mentioned so quickly! I suspect you and the the other admins mentioned by Roger Davies will be called upon many more times as the kids migrate their vandalism to other battles. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 08:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys for getting that done... Rod Rcbutcher (talk) 10:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I've got all the most popular Australian military history pages on my watchlist to protect them against vandalism, and have found that anything relating to Gallipoli is a common target for vandals. Unhappy ex-military personnel frequently take out their frustrations on the Australian Defence Force article. Nick Dowling (talk) 11:29, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Bravo, YM, & thanks. I'd go further, tho: block the b*st*rds. Let the schools find out the hard way what being denied access feels like, & get them to do something. It's really not WP's problem. Schools've got paid admins who're supposed to be dealing with bad behavior. Let 'em earn their keep! TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 12:14, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The only problem is that those admins won't care—why should they? They have enough on their plate with declining budgets and shrinking student populations! ^-talk- the_ed17 ^-contribs- 13:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

It is possible to ban IP editing for up to a year for persistent vandals, and the {{Schoolblock}} template provides instructions for students from banned schools who want to create accounts for productive editing. Nick Dowling (talk) 02:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• hits self in head* I knew that—my high school got hit with one! Duhhhh. ^-talk- the_ed17 ^-contribs- 03:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep. My Junior-High had one of those, and then the Calgary Board of Education banned Wikipedia in school (morons). Cam (Chat) 03:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

My district banned Wikipedia randomly one day...and it stayed banned for most of my sophomore and my entire junior year under the reasoning that Wikipedia was "personal pages". Go to Myspace, and you know what came up? Blocked because it's "personal pages"....I never really understood that. ^-talk- the_ed17 ^-contribs- 04:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

See, ours blocked it because of "inaccurate information" and "you don't know whose written it". So whenever the MilHist Project gets praised by external resources, of Dr. J. B. Murray of UBC uses Wikipedia as a classroom tool, I just send my fiercely anti-wikipedia librarian the link, and let them fume over it. Cam (Chat) 04:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll make no defense of stupid admins (of any description; choose whichever ones annoy you most ;D ). And my dad was a teacher for about 20yr (& later principal), so I've heard stories of stupid admins (all pre-WP, mind). All you can do is try & reason with the ignorant, who don't realize what WP's about, & show 'em (as best you can) WP articles are as reliable, accurate, & complete as is possible on a wiki. I sometimes wonder about reliability on changes moment-to-moment (forget vandalism), but if somebody asks, tell 'em to consider a book (or even a journal): it's based on the best available data one writer can accumulate at the time of publication; WP is the best date thousands of researchers/writers can get, up to date to the minute (more/less). I recall the quip in "STVH", "This news must be hours old."... On a WP (or PSW, or MA), it's hours, or maybe minutes, old, rather than months or years for paper. (The standard for a book is, it's out of date before it gets on the racks.) And it's as thorough as specialist knowledge can make it. I know there are serious people watchlisting articles in areas they're interested in, & I've seen the high caliber of their attention. If anybody doubts it, have 'em look at some FAs, or the top GAs. I think of this offhand, 'cause I know it's as good as it gets on the subject, even if it isn't quite up to WP's top standard; it's sufficiently controversial (!) to attract nuts & vandals, but it still manages to be excellent, 'cause there are serious people who care about it paying attention to keeping it right. Invite the critics to look at it, & especially at the page history, to see how the process works. And try & recruit experts every chance you get (if you don't already...). Do you know somebody who superdetails model kits, for instance? These guys are nuts for getting it right, & doing that demands good sources. (Sound familiar?) Or car restorers (& often customizers & rodders), for the same reason. (Who else knows how much overspray there should be in the wheelwells of a white '68 Camaro RS with auto & 4.10 posi? You can find guys who do...& can show you the paperwork.) If you can recruit 'em... TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 06:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

First admin to see this, please protect Mexican War of Independence Nunquam Dormio (talk) 13:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Woody. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 14:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

3rd Madras Cavalry

Please would somebody write a stub about this. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Royal Air Force template

After realising that there wasn't a template for RAF squadrons, I created one, Template:RAF squadrons. It lists every flying or past flying squadron within the RAF, as well as foreign-controlled ones. The guys at WPAVIATION have given this the thumbs-up, any comments from you guys? As we speak I'm rolling out the template across RAF squadron articles; this also gives us a better idea of what's done and what isn't. LGF1992UK (talk) 21:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Well done. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't really see the need to separate out the roman numeral identified squadrons from the arabic numerals (I think I'd probably find it easier to work out the roman numerals if they were put in the regular order). Can we have it hidden by default? it does take up quite a bit of space. Is foreign-controlled the best description - maybe foreign-manned would be better. For much of the time the whole point was that these were actually under direct RAF operational control, rather than that of their nominal country. David Underdown (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Why are those four Australian expeditionary support squadrons included? AFAIK, they were formed by the RAAF in the last 10 or so years and I don't think they have any connection with the RAF - I'm happy to be proven wrong though! Nick Dowling (talk) 00:03, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you want to add, under foreign manned, the NZ squadrons 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, and 490, please? Buckshot06(prof) 15:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

A Class review for SMS Von der Tann now open

Hi all, the A-Class review for SMS Von der Tann is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Parsecboy (talk) 00:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for Percy Herbert Cherry now open

The peer review for Percy Herbert Cherry is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for Triarii now open

The peer review for Triarii is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Battle of Fort Henry now open

The A-Class review for Battle of Fort Henry is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

A-Class review for Battle of Fort Donelson now open

The A-Class review for Battle of Fort Donelson is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 01:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

New categorisation of battles

Hi All,

I have completed the transition of World War I battles into the new categorisation. What new categorisation I here you asking. I have simply subcategorised the 'Battles by X' with the new 'Battles of X War involving X'. This has been completed for all major contributing countries in World War I. See example below using Australia.

Category:Battles involving Australia

• Category:Battles of World War I involving Australia

Category:Battles of World War I

• Category:Battles of World War I by country
  • Category:Battles of World War I involving Australia

Category:Military history of Australia during World War I

• Category:Military operations of World War I involving Australia
  • Category:Battles of World War I involving Australia

This has been discussed and agreed to here Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Style_guide#Operations versus Battles.

This should go a long way in cleaning up the Battles categories of various countries which were getting very long and had no reference to which conflict these battle articles related to until you viewed the article.

I will do the same for all major conflicts (feel free to help...): Glenn Sisson (talk) 05:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. We should probably also have some other intermediate link categories:

• Category:Military operations involving Australia by war
• Category:Battles involving Australia by war

and so forth. Kirill ^(prof) 23:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Another minor style issue

when referring to the idea of marines, should we upper or lower case it. My feeling is that we wouldn't write Cavalry or Infantry when referring to them generically, so why hsould marines be any different. See the openign paragraph of Royal Marines for an example, in the general description of what they are marines has been lower-cased as long as I can remember, but a user has just come along and is insisting it should be upper-cased. David Underdown (talk) 09:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

My preference (which I use) is "marines" for the generic (Bootnecks, Leathernecks, Морская пехота), "Marines" for the specific. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 09:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The rule of thumb is to capitalise proper nouns and lowercase case ordinary ones: that's broadly what the military terms section of the relevant style guide says. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 09:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The tricky thing in a case like this is that sometimes people use a shortened form of the proper noun, so what sometimes looks like a ordinary noun is actually an abbreviated proper noun. For example, the two following sentences could be considered properly capitalized, if the capitalized "Marines" in the second sentence is just an abbreviated rendering of "Royal Marines": The Royal Marines are the marines of the UK. The Marines are also the United Kingdom's specialists in mountain warfare. Because it can sometimes be stylistically tedious to repeat an entire proper noun (i.e. Royal Marines), a shortened form might be used. Whether or not it's standard to shorten "Royal Marines" to "Marines" is an altogether different question that I don't know the answer to. —Kevin Myers 12:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I suppose the countering argument would be that Wikipedia doesn't normally use informal contractions of proper nouns as proper nouns (if you see what I mean). --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 13:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

PS: Good work on "N/A" in the conflict info box/doc last night, by the way. (see above) --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 13:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't remind me, the amount that's been typed over whether we should use Church as a short for Roman Catholic Church, to help distinguish from the use of church as a building, or similarly Communion for Anglican Communion to distinguish from the more general concept of communion between churches (or Holy Communion)... David Underdown (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Just to butt in because am bored and to possiblly answer a rhetorical question, i believe the correct abbreviation would be 'RM'. Considering in Orders of Battles published by respected authors the have shortened the Royal Engineers and Royal Artillery to 'RE' and 'RA' respectfully.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The conventional abbreviation is RM, never Marines. The Marines are a US organisation.

ALR (talk) 13:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

RM is an initialism, but that's a different sort of abbreviation than at issue here. I'm talking about a kind of common, informal abbreviation, where for example of instead of using the proper noun Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you'd just use an abbreviated form and call it Parliament, even though parliament is also a non-proper noun. If you say that no one ever calls the Royal Marines simply the Marines, then my entire point is ... pointless! —Kevin Myers 13:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure some people do call RM Marines, some because they're not in the picture and some inexperienced pongos trying to get a rise. In general communication the abbreviation would be RM. Contemporary slang would be Royal or Booties.

One of the reasons for the distinction is that Marine formations operate more like the British Army than the Commando Brigade.

ALR (talk) 13:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the official history of the Royal Marines does use (at least once) the short form of "Marines", e.g.: "The policy of "Imperial Policing" took the Marines to the bombardment of Algiers in 1816...." But that's just a single example and doesn't seem to be common. Their usual short form, for the sake of stylistic variety, is to use Corps as an occasional alternative to Royal Marines. But now I've taken us far away from the original point. —Kevin Myers 13:45, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe that is there "Official history". Each regiment of the British armed forces, as well as Corps and divisions have all released Official Historys following the war or major conflicts - there is also official campaign historys released. I would assume there is one floating about for the RM and that would be the Official History of said conflict/campaign etc not the history section of there website.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me started on the quality of the web site... They only recently removed some items that were six years out of date.

ALR (talk) 13:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)