Talk:Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia

First Comments

Hmmm let me see - you use an irredentist qualifier for ethnic Macedonians who allegedly live in Greece. Or whose parents lived in Greece. First of all such an article should not exist. It is some form of POV fork of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Second it states some ridiculous numbers. Third it completely fails to represent the other POV - I've started calling it the real world POV. There's also a problem with copyright infringement - some passages look like taken as whole from somewhere. This impression is strengthened by the fact that ABECEDAR is always spelled with capital letters - looks like it was copied from another place. Now the next matter: No, you cannot call ethnic MAcedonians simply Macedonians in an article about Greece. There are other Macedonians in Greece as you know more than well. Summing everything up the article is upi for deletion. Given the fact that canvassing would lead the vote to only one possible solution (we already saw that on another place) administrators will have to take things in their own hands. --Laveol ^T 15:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Kosovski this is going to AFD before you can say Aegean ...--   Avg    17:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually one i wasnt finished creating the article yet. And two i will take your concerns into consideration. How is it irredentist? What are the ethnic macedonians who come from greece called?? - Aegean Macedonians. What should we say to the people who were born in Greece and identify as ethnic macedonians?? All population numbers are estimates. Please give constructive critism and the article will benefit. By copyright, i have copied a few sentences from another wikipedia page because they were saying the sae thing, is that not allowed?? Why shouldnt an article exist are you trying to tell me there has NEVER been ethnic macedonians in Greece, and they didnt have children? What about SNOF and NOF who were these people? What about the rainbow political party are they greeks? Stop removing every article and actually contribute to wikipedia. Oh, and please let me finish the article.P m kocovski (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that this article shoud be renamed in Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Makedonij (talk) 10:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Article up for deletion

Please tell me the viable reasons for deleting the page?P m kocovski (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean apart from the fact that it was created as a POV fork? You're not naive, you know very well why you started this article.--   Avg    22:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't start it as a POV fork. I started it to inform readers of the Aegean Macedonians, and give some information about them.

Title- Aegean Macedonians

Please tell me if there is another title used by the ethnic macedonians in/from greece which is different to Aegean Macedonians?? if there is the page can be moved.

I guess "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece" isn't a possibility. Funny how you used the 200,000 estimate despite the other talk page. You folks all seem to lack reading comprehension. 3rdAlcove (talk) 22:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is a common estimate and it should be included it isnt definate. And the title would be appropriate because As you said it isnt really a possibility.P m kocovski (talk) 06:05, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I give up. 3rdAlcove (talk) 09:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

moved talk from AFD.

• What "Aegean Macedonians" means in the first place? It means the Macedonians who come from "Aegean Macedonia" (an already controversial term). Well it happens that there are 2.5 million people in "Aegean Macedonia" who are Greeks. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", but they're not even mentioned to your article. Anyway, forgetting that, you've started an article detailing the Slavic migration to Macedonia and the Slavic culture in Macedonia, thereby automatically creating the connection that all Slavophones = Ethnic Macedonians. And on top of that you put in the mix dubious figures, controversial claims, irredentist beliefs. So to sum it up: POV fork.--   Avg    22:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• No, it is a regional identifier used by ethnic macedonians to distinguish themselves from other ethnic macedonians. Greeks use the term Greek Macedonian, ethnic macedonians use the term Aegean Macedonian. AND no i am not implying that all the slavophone greeks identify as macedonians, the fact that they share a similar culture and heritage to the ethnic macedonians is UNAVOIDABLE. That is no reason delete an article because they have similarities to another group of people! Dubious figures, go and have a look at the many greek pages and then tell me about dubious figures. Oh, and if i was being irredentist there would be 1,000,000 ethnic macedonians in greece, that is irredentist.P m kocovski (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

• Since you mentioned it, Greeks use the term "Macedonian" and not "Greek Macedonian". This is how they identify themselves. Please have a look at Macedonia (terminology) if you have doubts about it. Now the primary reason to delete this article is that it was created to bypass the established NPOV in Ethnic Macedonians and Slavophone Greeks articles, since it uses data that was debunked/unacceptable in the relevant articles, plus it uses offending and controversial terminology.--   Avg    22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

yes, they only use macedonians as a regional identifier, while their ethnicity is greek. Aegean macedonian means Aegean Macedonia- Regional Identity and Macedonian- Ethnic group. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", What is this???? They should be Aegean Macedonians??? Then what is their ethnicity?. How ridiculous. And no this article was not designed to bypass the NPOV on Ethnic macedonians and Slavophone greeks. It has nothing to do with slav speakers who identify as greeks, but Ethnic macedonians from Greece who identify as ethnic macedonians. Offending terminology?? Please expain.P m kocovski (talk) 07:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WTF?

It states 10,000 to 200,000 Slavomakedonians in Greece!!!!!!!!!!! Their party in elections hardly gets more than 7,000. Where are the other 193,000 "oppressed"?People who consider themselves affiliated to the citizens of FYROM aren't more than 10 -15,000.And probably even that, is an exaggeration.Some villages outside Florina.That's all.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 10:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well according to Greek Diaspora there are 3,000,000 greeks in America, 700,000 in Australia, 370,000 in Germany, Canada in 450,000, 400,000 in Albania, 120,000 in South Africa and on Greeks there are 400,000 greeks in Biritan even when the source say only 300,000!. These estimates are all permitted on Wikipedia. Oh, and also since when is an Ethnic Macedonian forced to vote for the Rainbow Party? Why vote for a party which might not have any influence???P m kocovski (talk) 11:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all if you check the diaspora discussion page i oppose the inflated numbers of Greek diaspora.Anyway Britain and Australia count only the Greek-born as Greeks and not the rest but that's not my point.My point is that 99% of the Slavophone community in Greece feels strongly Greek and they felt so even in the turmoil year's of 1904 - 1914 for the region.You can't just guess a number and put 200,000.I lived all my life in Macedonia and if there was such a great number i would have known. As for the Rainbow party,well if a minority of this size (200,000 even 1 million claimed by your government) is allegedly so harshly oppressed the least we should expect would be them to support the party for their rights. Wiki is an encyclopedia and numbers straight out of irredentist leaflets can't be allowed here. --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually Australia counts ancestry, but i agree with you as well. Where there are official census figures they should be used. But in Greece there are none so only non biased estimate's should be used (they have been provided). Now, the figure of 1,000,000 is ridiculously high, i will agree to that. 200,000 is a more sober estimate. I think you will agree that somewhere between 10,000 and 200,000 is the true number of Ethnic macedonians. I do not think that the 200,000 figure should just be removed when it is sourced (+ many non macedonian sources put the figure at c.200,000) when some people percieve it to be too high. Rather having it as an estimate would be a NPOV as the official figures are unknown. But once again 1,000,000 is a ridiculous estimate. P m kocovski (talk) 11:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I have never ever in my life met any Greek citizen claiming to be Slavomacedonian.I made quite a few trips in the region and i live in Thessaloniki which gathers people from all Macedonia so isn't quite strange?I think the minority is found only in Florina region.I don't say it trying to downplay the number,and if it was the opposite i would also have stated but they are not even close to 40-50,000.200,000 seems like an extra-terrestrial number to me also.Anyway if it is sourced yes.But the source must be a serious third party one and even in that case it's simply a guess.Noone knows better than the Greek state itself.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

yes, but what is a good source? Can you see what i am trying to say? Also how can greek government be 100% trusted when they claim 3,000,000 greeks in america and 700,000 in australia (The real numbers are just under half of those). And if you noticed i did not use any sources from the macedonian government nor ethnic macedonian activists. 3rd Party sources have been used. P m kocovski (talk) 08:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The 3,000,000 isn't a greek government claim.It's USA data.Anyway i saw that Britannica claims 1,8% of the population to be Slavomacedonians.I can't see where this number is based,and i disagree with that but nevertheless is accepted as a source.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

My mistake the Greek government only claims 2,500,000 . Ioannes, many statistics have the number of ethnic macedonians in greece at c. 200,000 this is usually the benchmark and they hardly put more. It is not only britannica but other sources to. P m kocovski (talk) 21:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Points of Discussion

This is the section where major points of the Article should be discussed. Please put your objections here so that they can be adressed.P m kocovski (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Point 1-

Article name Aegean Macedonians or Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. I believe some users have expressed concern that Aegean Macedonians may be ambiguous. That is a legitimate point and should be discussed. NB: crap about being offended or about irredentism is not worth taking note of. BalkanFever 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that this article shoud be renamed in Ethnic Macedonians in Greece,afterall it is talking about Ethnic Macedonians,or minority of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece.Makedonij (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

And why to delete it???I'm against that(deleteing)Makedonij (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to make two points. First - This article should not be deleted. First it has references, and second it is analogical to the article Pontic Greeks. Second - about the naming it can be Ethnic Macedonians of Greece, because it shows that is it not only about those that still live in Greek Macedonia, but also in Republic of Macedonia, Canada and so on. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 07:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No moving until the afd is closed, though. BalkanFever 11:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Revizionist, if you don't think the article should be deleted, make your opinion known at the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians

I would repeat once again that I am against deleting an article that is backed with so many references. I must add that I am OK with both the name Aegean Macedonians and ethnic Macedonians of Greece as names of this article. maybe the second would be better, for it would be a conglomerate article about those people with ethnic Macedonian conscience that live in Greece, and those that are refugees in R. Macedonia, Canada, Australia and so on. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Point 2-

My second point would be that if the Aegean Macedonians article is deleted, than we you may as well delete the Pontic Greeks article, for the articles are analogical. --Revizionist (talk) 13:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you,and i think both of them shoud stay!!NO DELETEING.Makedonij (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Kostas Novakis

Are there any RS about his self-identification? There seems to be no agreement on that. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This is an excerpt from a Dnevnik article. He calls his wife "Grecian". This is about a gathering of Aegean Macedonians in Bitola, where Novakis was a guest. BalkanFever 13:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if he really did call his wife "Grecian" in English or if it was simply translated that way. ;) "Aegean Macedonians" living in the Republic or in Macedonia, though? 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Aegean Macedonians is analogical to Pontian Greeks and to Cham Albanians. The name Aegean Macedonians refers to both the people that identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians and live in Greece, and those that live as refugees in R.Macedonia and in the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. What do you call an ethnic Macedonian not living in Macedonia (say, he lives in Epirus)? Btw, say a family moves from Macedonia to the Republic. After how many generations do you stop calling them "Aegean Macedonians" (until they forget, perhaps)? Thanks! Edit: Also, say, a family from the Republic moves to Macedonia, are they included under "Aegean Macedonians"?

Ah, and my question to BF was about whether they live in Macedonia or in the Republic now. 3rdAlcove (talk)

The same as you call a Pontic Greek that refuged from Trapezund to Kilkis. Or A Pontic Greek family that emigrated from Thessaloniki to Larisa. Or a Cham Albanian that emigrated from Vlora to Tirana. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You didn't answer the first or the third question, though. 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

As I said it is analogical. For example, as you will see in the Pontic Greek article, the Pontian diaspora includes both Pontic Greeks in Greece and both Pontic Greeks or people of Pontic Greek descent in the diaspora or other countries. Also a ethnic Macedonian that comes from R.Macedonia to Greek Macedonia is not an Aegean Macedonian - he is an emigrant from R.Macedonia in Greece. Everything you asked me is analogical with Pontic Greeks. Everything. Regards --Revizionist (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Man, stop with the 'analogical'. Ok, and what about the last question? How do you call an ethnic Macedonian living in any part of Greece other than Macedonia? Simply "Macedonian"? 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We call all of them simply Macedonians. But as for regional and cultural heritage we call all ethnic Macedonians that have decent from Greek Macedonia - Aegean Macedonians. If an ethnic Macedonian from Greece lives in Athens, he is an Aegean Macedonian, for he has originated from Aegean Macedonia - that is why i say it is analogical to Pontic Greeks. If a Pontic Greek lives in Istanbul he is still a Pontic Greek, for his origin and culture is connected to Pontous. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

See? When you drop the 'analogical', it flows better. What's the difference in culture between Macedonians from the Republic and "Aegean Macdonians"? 3rdAlcove (talk)

The answer will be given if you ask yourself what is the difference in culture between the Greeks in Albania and the Greeks in Thesally. For example, the language of the ethnic Macedonians in R.Macedonia and in Greek Macedonia is the same, the songs, rituals are 90% the same, but still there are several songs and dances that are specific for them - like Mori chupi Kosturcanki and so on. This is a conglomerate of both regional, ethnographic and historical identity, as it is for the Pontic Greeks. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You really love those Pontic Greeks, don't you? Thanks, specific songs do cut it. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Btw, are the Argeads considered "Aegean Macedonians" in the official historiography of the Republic? Or simply Grkomani? 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, i have just gone onto the greek diaspora page and added up the number of greeks in the countries surrounding the black sea. (where pontic greeks are from) And the total number was - 212,901 what does the article claim 3,000,000 (est.)!!! Does that mean there are 2,800,000 pontic greeks in greece!? P m kocovski (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

"Niel Simpson, Macedonia;Its Disputed History,Aristoc Press.1994"

Would the user who added the ref be so kind as to give us some info about it? Perhaps a website link, an abstract etc. 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you find the link on the internet good luck. But if you request i can give you the terminology in which the text was used. I have the book. P m kocovski (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Template:cite book is good for this. BalkanFever 08:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The reference has been fixed. P m kocovski (talk) 11:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

(un)Yes, obviously can't find it. In any case, it doesn't state anything that looks like POV (well, a few estimates maybe, but who knows). 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I foundt it here but its just the reference not the text. P m kocovski (talk) 06:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

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Estimates

I changed the estimate back to 30,000. If you really feel I'm POV-pushing here, PLEASE take a look at the relevant discussion on the talk page of Macedonians (ethnic group) and don't start edit warring. Discuss, instead. 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually the discussion on Ethnic Macedonians talk page, has turned into a question of whether someone will be punched in florina, so lets discuss it here? Why do you keep reverting to the old Helsinki Numbers, when there are many other sources saying otherwise? P m kocovski (talk) 07:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, like I said, only Britannica mentions 200,000 Macedonians and doesn't give its source. All the others use Helsinki which clearly makes the distinction between "M" and "M speakers". So, where did Britannica find 200,000 Macedonians when the others find 30,000 at best? B being a tertiary source should not be preferred (though it'd be nice to know whether it misinterpreted other sources -M vs M speakers- or simply used a yet undiscovered one). 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the only source qouting the 30,000 is the helsinki monitor (as far as i can see), many others apart from brittanica use the 200,000. I havent seen any western sources in a while stating over 200,000. P m kocovski (talk) 10:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete article

Such article usually come together following a debate. This did not take place. Also, the article seems opportunistic and irredentist in inspiration. Please delete. Politis (talk) 12:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

AfD

• Reasons for deleting this article.
• On 17 April 2008 an international panel discussion was held in Brussels, at the European Parliament. Its subject was 'The Ignored Minorities of Greece'. It was organised by the EFA parliamentary group and concerned the "Turkish" and "ethnic Macedonian" minorities in Greece with speakers representing those communities. At no time, before, during or after was there any mention of 'Aegean Macedonian', neither did this term appear in any of the hand-outs or books available. This term is not a recognised term by the very people whom it targets. Politis (talk) 16:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Politis, if you want this argument to be heard, you need to make it at the Afd page, which is currently active. (Although, I'd say, it's really an argument for renaming more than an argument for deletion, and not a particularly strong one at that.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If the people whom it targets do not use it, then the seriousness, relevance and appropriatness of the article is seriously flawed. We might as well introduce articles on 'Aegean Macedonians' in the sense of Greek Macedonians who live along the Aegean coastline, or 'Greek Pelagonians' for those who lived between Florina and Krushevo. Sorry, the topic is touched upon in other articles. Politis (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well seeing as there arent any macedonians in other sections of greece it seems appropriate to name them so. Seeing as the greek community of macedonia(region) is mainly in Greek Macedonia, they only need to identify as Greek Macedonians. If you wish to create an article Greek Pelagonians then you are free to do so. P m kocovski (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This should not be deleted

The Aegean Macedonians are infact a subgroup of Ethnic Macedonians but because of their experiences under Greece, have differences which cause them to be a subgroup:

1. Church affiliation (Macedonian Orthodox Church vs Greek Orthodox Church)
2. Last names (-SKI, -OFF, -OV vs -OS)
3. 1913-present history and experiences (Division of Macedonia)
4. War Involvement (ASNOM vs SNOF)
5. Aegean Macedonians have a different view and experience because of the affects of Hellenization after 1913, they even call themselves Aegean Macedonian or Macedonian from the Aegean

And Greeks, again "Aegean" is simply Geographic terms, like you state "Macedonian" is Geographic for yourselves. This portion of the ethnicity even fought a completely different war then the rest of the Ethnic Macedonians. Mactruth (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You can say that at the deletion page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians. BalkanFever 08:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe it shouldn't. I'm starting to warm up to it, truth be told. It isn't as POV as I expected it to be and, with a single exception, M users seem to be cooperative so far. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, btw. United Macedonians will prevail again. You folks already have more votes. Wikipedia article today, Aegean Macedonia tomorrow. *drumroll* 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh please P m kocovski (talk) 23:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow 3rdAlcove, Aegean Macedonians are the same as "Greek Macedonians." Aegean is the region, Macedonian is the ethnicity. They have a different history and consequences due to the division of Macedonia in 1913 and the Greek Civil War. It's the same as saying Macedonian is the region, Greek is the ethnicity, different histories because of different rulers etc. Mactruth (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Joke, folks, joke... 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Zigomanis

Hey guys,Zigomanis is Greek Macedonians not Slav.He is also member of the greek national team so be careful with what you write here.Wikipedia should not be a place for propaganda85.74.142.154 (talk) 22:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

There has been arguments whether Zigomanis is Greek or Macedonian, the fact that he is on the Greek national team doesn't tell us much about his origins/ethnicity. Please provide clear evidence that he is Greek. Mactruth (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't it give info about his self-identification? --Laveol ^T 06:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Deletion?

What the hell is going on? We have articles like Slavophone Greeks and Slavika and then Greek editors are calling this article a POV-fork. --Hegumen (talk) 10:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Article makes nonsense of the subject

This article is seriously flawed. Many of its sources are partisan, if not dubious. The people whom it targets (and the Vinozhito/Ouranio Toxo representatives) of the Slavophone Macedonians of Greece do NOT identify as 'Aegean Macedonians'. Even though the term with reference to a people only began in 1947 (or around then), we have a serious issue of back dating it. And now it seems that attempts to rectify the situation will be labeled in derogatory term. At the very least this article needs to re-written. I am only interested in facts and especially in bona fide, original source documentsUser:Politis

Yes and no. If you ask a greek from macedonia "What is your nationaility/what ethnic group are you part of? he will answer Greek. Similar to the Aegean Macedonians. P m kocovski (talk) 13:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I cannot speak for your encounters. But I have met, eat, drank and travelled with Greek (Slavo) Macedonians, including so called autonomist sympathisers. None of them said 'Aegean Macedonian', they all agreed on 'ethnic Macedonian' as opposed to 'Greek Macedonian'. In all their communications, Vinozito stresses 'Greek citizens and ethnic Macedonians'. [No one in Europe asks what is your ethnic group, just, 'where are you from']. Politis (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are right but if you speak to someone say in greek and he says he's from macedonia, you would assume he's a greek from greek macedonia, or a greek macedonian. Similar to an ethnic macedonian, if you ask him what village his from and he says Kotori/Lerinsko (Kato Idroussa ,florina), you say ah an Egejc (Aegean Macedonian) he says yes. Of course the political party would stress that they are Ethnic Macedonians because that is the WHOLE ethnic group, aegean macedonians are comparable to a subgroup. P m kocovski (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Something which I didn't realize at first is what INkubusse noted on the vote for deletion page:

"Aegean Macedonians" doesn't mean "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece"; it's the name for all Macedonians originating from Aegean Macedonia. Many of them live in EU countries, RoM and overseas countries. See Marek Jankulovski as an example.

The people discussed in this article are many and live all around the world. Their plight is well documented and therefor deserve an article of their own. As INkubusse noted, the term is not synonymous with Ethnic Macedonians in Greece, which needs to be a separate article in itself. --Hegumen (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic Macedonians of Greece as Revizionist suggested BalkanFever 03:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I oppose naming the article "Ethnic Macedonians of Greece" (except as a redirect) because they are not known as such; the term is simply Aegean Macedonians and that's it. --iNkubusse^? 14:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

350,000

i noticed that there has been some edit warring regardind the numbers 350,000+ vs. 100,000-200,000. I placed the country sections below it so that i wouldnt be accuse of saying that there was 350,000 ethnic macedonians in greece. That is why the countries section is below to disambiguate, Just a comment. P m kocovski (talk) 12:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Polibiush: "This is an estimate, that includes the diaspora." Isn't the whole diaspora included in the infobox? If not, what other countries are home to the 150-200,000 remaining Ms? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Opening Comment

"Aegean Macedonians" (Macedonian: Егејски Македонци) or simply "Aegeans" (Macedonian: Егејци) refers to those ethnic Macedonians who live in, or who originate from, the Greek region of Macedonia. Hi, i was just wondering if the opening paragraph is satisfactory or if it could be improved any comments? P m kocovski (talk) 08:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I have no strong opinion either way on the content, I'm just stopping in as an uninvolved admin, who is helping out in areas where there may be ethnic disputes (see WP:WORKGROUP). My first question though, would be, "Are there sources which make that definition?" Also, on the list of "notables", do we have sources for each of those names, which clearly state, "This person was an Aegean Macedonian"? If not, anything unsourced should be removed, per WP:V. --Elonka 19:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)