Wikipedia:Sandbox

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January 2005 – May 2006

Notable players

Surfing wiki for so long, this is the first time I ever seen a column such as 'Notable players' for any game in the style presented here. If they want to know about these players, reading an article on the wiki is not the place to do it. Heck, even seperate wiki entries if you're so determined to do it. Does anyone even CARE who Boozerbear is, when they just want to know what is Kingdom of Loathing? A final arguement : with a column like this, the spammers will have a field day. --Cpryd001 16:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This is not something that has been deemed acceptable in previous, similar situations. --InShaneee 17:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

KoL is considerably more social-oriented and many players have become near-celebrities with the game's community, which could raise question and interest with newer players who heard a name dropped in chat. I personally think it should stay. As for spammers, there's always the risk of them polluting an article, I don't think a column such as this would effect it much. If all else fails, it could always be locked.--68.60.18.222 03:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"with the game's community," - that's the key right there. It's only interest is withing the game's already existing community... and that's not really the audience of a wikipedia article. KOLColdFront is a much better place for a list of notable players. ---J.S (t|c) 05:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Leeroy Jenkins is a celebrity in the WoW world AND is mentioned in Wikipedia...

These are MMOs so I consider Google to be a reliable indicator of notability. Boozerbear: 4540 results, Leeroy Jenkins: 170,000 -- not to mention the fact Leeroy has been added (as tributes e.t.c) to many very notable games and television shows.

Mainly because WoW is more well-known as a MMO then KoL is. I think it should stay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.146.241.90 (talk • contribs).

Notability (atleast in this case) is not relative. I think it should be removed. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 13:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Lounge chat channel?

Should the lounge channel be mentioned in the article? It could just say "Unclear" or "Unknown" under "Purpose" and "Who can access". Mo-Al 00:26, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm against that. There's just so little verifiable information we'd be doing a disservice to the article to even try. --InShaneee 02:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Mo-Al 02:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't be silly. /lounge hasn't been a great secret in almost two years now. --Cairnarvon 21:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, it hasn't been verified. Mo-Al 22:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. There's just no need for something that there's no verifiable info about. --InShaneee 00:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

But you CAN verify that the lounge channel exists. If someone's actually in the channel (not just listening to it), then /whois will tell you "This player is currently online in channel lounge". (I just verified that myself using a multi.) And it's safe to say that it's available to people who've been granted access by an admin. You can't access any chat channel in the game without being granted access by an admin -- if not directly through admin intervention, then at least indirectly via game code that was written by an admin... -- CWesling 01:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I believe you, but just because you have discovered it doesn't mean that it's suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia (you know, no original research and all that). If you can find a source that backs you up, cite it and put it it. Mo-Al 02:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What kind of a feeble excuse is that? You can't find a "source" that backs up anything in this article; the only real source is the game itself (unless somebody's written a scientific paper about KoL that I haven't heard about), and I don't see you erasing the article because of that. I just told you how you or anybody else (with a KoL account, or access to a friend's) can verify this. That's as close to "verifiable" as anything in this article gets.

If it'll help any, I can give you the names of some players who are online in lounge right now for you to verify, since you're logged on here currently. Try a /whois on Cthules, Lilith, or Old Ned. -- CWesling 02:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The channel's existence was denied in its first few months, but nowadays it's commonly acknowledged, both by the people who have access and the admins themselves. --Cairnarvon 02:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Then get a source, and cite it in the article. It doesn't matter whether you or I know it. Mo-Al 02:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, here's a source: [1]. I forgot about the KoL Wiki. Happy now? -- CWesling 02:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was just too lazy to look it up on my own. Mo-Al 02:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the chat channel table has been removed, so it's a moot point now. Mo-Al 20:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

HC Ronin?

I've removed the part that says that a HC player that frees the King in under 600 turns is still subject to Ronin, as I haven't heard of it. If we can find a reference somewhere, feel free to add it back in. Quentin mcalmott 17:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Even if it's true, it's not worth mentioning. This isn't a strategy guide, and already contains too much detail on the game mechanics. --InShaneee 17:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This is true-- I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but it's a commonly-known fact on the KoL Forums. There's an invisible Ronin counter in Hardcore. It, for some bizarre reason, remains even after you free the King. I'm not sure why it stays after you free the King, but the logistics of having a Ronin counter in Hardcore are fairly simple to understand-- if such a thing didn't exist, one could ascend Hardcore and immediately drop it, turning their run into a normal run without a Ronin phase.

But I digress. My point is, it is true, but I can't find a source right now. Maybe later. Besides, InShaneee's point is a good one-- it's not worth mentioning. --Southwest 16:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

"softcore" vs. "normal"

I've taken the liberty of changing all mentions of "softcore ascension" into "normal ascension." That's the official term seen at the Ascension FAQ. [2] Quentin mcalmott 17:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

KoL Trance

I saw KoL Trance in the Community section, so i added the link to the Community links.

Logo

I think it would be better if the logo image was of the left sword guy. That's the one they use on shirt designs and Jick's avatar, etc. --80.195.190.235

Does it...really...matter? --'Ivan 03:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. --80.195.190.235 22:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

if you think it doesn't matter, the change doesn't affect you. If you think the change matters, go ahead and change it; no one's against it (that has spoke up, and honestly, I don't think it's very contentious). Quentin mcalmott 23:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Gika 00:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

...It's been changed back. Does anyone know why? --80.195.190.235 15:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Penguin Mafia

I see that the Penguin Mafia has been left out of the History section and I think it would be nice if it was added.

Unsigned comment by IP 68.184.207.173 16:29, August 9, 2006. (added by Jazzdude00021)

That would be nice... I'm too lazy to see if someone else has already done it.  :)

Frodo 11011 08:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Gameplay screenshots?

Would anyone have any objection to me taking a few gameplay screenshots and including them in the page? I don't think it could hurt anything, and would help to give readers a flavor of the game. --Southwest 16:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

One might be alright, but that's the most usually used on game articles. I'd recommend a shot of combat. --InShaneee 16:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of adding any more than a couple. --Southwest 03:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to go about this, but a while ago, I took a screenshot of KoL. If you want it, it's here. http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/4407/kolscreenshotvc7.png

You can use that however you want. --80.195.190.235 08:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the above screenshot to the article. Southwest, if you have a better one, feel free to go for it. Cornprone 00:41, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks fantastic! --InShaneee 14:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree-- it looks great! I don't see any way a screenshot I took could be better-- any I took right now wouldn't be as indicative of normal gameplay, as I'm currently running a level-19 character. Nice job, Cornprone and the anonymous screenshotter! --Southwest 03:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

An updated screenshot should be placed, since this one is pretty old.Nanajoth 14:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nanajoth (talk • contribs).

I replaced the screenshot with a new version depicting more recent game content and interface updates. Enjoy.--Cornprone (talk) 01:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources

I've been adding references as I work on the History section. However, the best sources of information I can find on these topics are the articles the KOL wiki ( http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/ ). Are these OK as source references? And anyone know of better ones? Cornprone 05:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Bloat.

Put simply... the article is beginning to feel bloated. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 12:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What course of action would you suggest? Cornprone 12:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Trimming of sections. Some sections probably don't merit their own little section and could just a be a single sentence as part of another section. the comet for example was merely a method of introducing a new raffle feature.

The Radio KoL section also is rather large, dwarfing all other sub-sections and ... and things such as those. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 12:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the comet section because I believe it was a significant-enough event to warrant mention. Also, I divided the History section into subsections because I thought it made it easier to read. I was however considering combining the "classes" and "attributes" sections into a single "characters" section and shortening the individual descriptions of each class and attribute. Also I agree the Radio section could be shorter. --Cornprone 12:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Another thought: I'm loathe to just remove a lot of information in the "Radio" section, but much of it is only tangentially related to the game itself. Maybe it's more prudent to split "Radio KOL" into a separate article. --Cornprone 12:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the classes and attributes idea. IIRC, Radio KoL once did have its own article, which got merged back here. Really, I think it's prudent to cut that whole section down to a one or two sentence mention, and merge it with another section. --InShaneee 13:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I just shortened the attributes and classes sections. I took out the quoted descriptions about each class that came from the official KOL site and made things more concise. (also made some information more accurate). Thoughts? --Cornprone 00:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

We should really just be forwarding people to the KoLwiki at coldfront for more info. No general encylopedia should include this much minutae about one game. 155.212.44.58 19:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

"Forwarding to the KolWiki" is not an option. As for how much detail should be gone into, I'm sure we can find a GA or FA class game article to use as reference. --InShaneee 20:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, if you look at Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Sport_and_games, it seems to me that this article--in terms of how much detail it presents--is pretty much in line with accepted community standards. I will still try to edit some stuff for conciseness and shorten the Radio section, though. --Cornprone 22:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the History and Radio sections should still be condensed a fair bit. They're still pretty large. When I get a chance I'll try to trim it a bit, but that might not be for a while. -- CWesling 08:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

KoL Chess

I've added a sentence or two about KoL Chess, and Hoddan's online version. If someone knows some background information on the chess game (who created the new ruleset, when, etc.) please add it. The section isn't complete as I left it, and I'd like it more robust. Also, if you can think of a better word than personas, (I was thinking in terms of the Legends), please, swap it out.

I've removed the reference. It is a non-notable fangame. --InShaneee 21:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry then

KoL chess? Sounds cool. I wish I had seen the info. Frodo 11011 08:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Seal Clubber redirect

We really dont need this, it would have to include all other classes to have a significance. --Nanajoth 15:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

It's actually not required for the other five classes. I don't see how often Turtle Tamer, Pastamancer, Sauceror, Disco Bandit, or Accordion Thief appear in popular culture; Seal Clubber, however, does have a tenuous hold on the language. Not quite sure it should be an automatic redirect to THIS article, tho--someone putting in a request for seal clubbers could be looking for the actual hunting, rather than the character class. Perhaps the redirect should go to hunting, and a note in that article should read along the lines 'For the Kingdom of Loathing character class, see ... ' IL-Kuma 06:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Do we really want a Seal Clubber redirect to be mentioned in the first line of this article? It seems like it's not really helpful, as it's not one of the most important things to read about as the first line. Quentin mcalmott 04:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

How else are we to explain other uses of "seal clubber"? There's no real other place to put it. --Crazysunshine 11:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. It's standard practice to put 'otheruses' templates at the top of articles. --InShaneee 22:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, I guess it's ok then. It just seems odd to me to have that up on the top of the article for people who don't come here through a "seal clubber" link. Quentin mcalmott 02:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Crimboween

Is it justifiable to have information on Crimboween or even just Crimbo in general? Or would that not even be funny? There is information on the Comet, but I guess that would impact (pun not intended until just now) everybody who plays, having altered mechanics relying on moon phases. Vitriol 20:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It really seems outside of the scope of an encyclopedia. ---J.S ^(T/C) 21:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This is just one event. --InShaneee 22:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Crimbo should be included, since it is the biggest in-game holiday and most anticipated. Nanajoth 14:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nanajoth (talk • contribs).

plexiglass

The word "plexiglass" in the context of the article should be in quotes, and it should not be linked. It's being used in an specific in-universe context that has nothing to do with the real world. Since it's an unusual usage for the word "plexiglass" it is appropriate to use quotes to distinguish it. ---J.S ^(T/C) 23:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The items are called plexiglass in-game. Should we also call the items "bow"legged pants, "cardboard" wakizashi, or cheshire "bitten", if they were in this article? I also don't see how it's being used in a context that has nothing to do with the real world, just making it into clothing. Quentin mcalmott 01:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Upon further research, it seems that "plexiglass" is indeed a widely-used word in the real world and as such does not need quotes around it. --Cornprone 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

On even more research, Wikipedia redirects "plexiglass" to the page it is now linked to. Try it yourself. If it is a word to Wikipedia, then it is a word to me. Even so, plexiglass, the same type used in-game, is the same type used in the real world. Imagine that! It is not being used in an unusual way, so it doesn't need quotes. So, context and usage both sway in favor of linking and no quotes. SnufStyle420 20:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what is in the game or not. You cannot use the word (or non-word) "plexiglass". It has no meaning and it is illegal. It is a trademark violation and against wikipedia copyright policy.Tstrobaugh 15:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

As to comments above, that "plexiglass" is a word because it has a redirect in wikepedia, it has a redirect precisely because it is not a word and it is assumed to be a mistaken entry on the users part. Another one, that it is used in the game also doesn't matter, unless there is a section explaining why the game uses it incorrectly and illegally. I worked for Rohm and Hass in trademark protection. Also, metaphysically, there are not "real worlds" and I suppose "unreal worlds" there is only one world.Tstrobaugh 15:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I, for one, question whether you should be making such controversial changes without consensus (and especially marking them minor) when you are so close to the subject (the company Rohm and Haas makes plexiglas). And yes, there are two separate "worlds", even if you argue over the semantics of calling them such. In the world of the game, that's what the items are called. No matter if "plexiglass" is a word or not in the non-KoL world, it is in KoL, in the same way that "Klingon" was not a word (to my knowledge) until Star Trek made it so. I've listed this at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems. Quentin mcalmott 06:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The game uses the term "plexiglass". The game does not use the term "acrylic glass". The article is using the item an an example of something in the game. Calling it acrylic glass would be blatantly incorrect and misleading. The game item has nothing to do with the real world "acrylic glass." If you have a concern with trademark infringement, I sugust you contact the people at KOL. However, wikipedia is only reporting on the game's usage of the term. ---J.S ^(T/C) 23:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hovering Sombrero

"Hovering Sombrero" is a They Might Be Giants song - anybody know whether KoL got the name from TMBG, or vice versa? Is this worthy of note in this article? Applejuicefool 20:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion be - Check KoLwiki. it notes all the references.  :)

I would do that, but my stupid work internet filter won't let me go to sites that reference games in any way (in theory - some slip through, like Wikipedia articles, for instance!) Probably a good idea - else I'd probably never get any work done! lol Applejuicefool 16:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It's definitely a reference to TMBG, like many other things in the game. Probably not worth mentioning here though. Cornprone 12:47, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

KoLmafia

I was wondering about this: is it malware of any kind? Keylogger, trojan, etc? —My name is too long 19:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Welll... A lot of people use it, and trust it. In case ye don't know, it's an automatic thing that plays KoL for ye. I've never actually tried it though. Frodo 11011 07:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not any form of malware. There's so many users that it would HAVE to have been noticed. Plus, KoLMafia is open source, anyone with the proper knowledge can check the code and see there's nothing funky in it. If there were, it would've been reported a long time ago.

Coldfront In Chat

I added to the Community page near the bottom saying how it was also forbidden to say something about Coldfront or anyother spolier site outside of KoL. Should it stay there or does the saying about being forbidden simply cover it? GloomySunday 01:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"It is forbidden to publicly give away spoilers in chat, and it is also forbidden to say anything about Coldfront, or any other spoiler site outside of KoL." I don't think it's entirely forbidden to say anything about spoiler sites. The extent to which this is allowed in chat depends a great deal on which chat channel you're in. I'd agree that this is true for /newbie chat, but certainly not for /hardcore. I don't know how I could prove this without screenshots of chat (which would likely not go over well here), but I also don't see any reference to back up the idea that mentioning Coldfront or any other sites is entirely forbidden. The policies of Loathing state that you cannot post "spoilers for in-game quests and puzzles" in chat, but they don't say anything about posting links in chat, provided that those links aren't violating the policies in some other way. Brokenchairs 02:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, in /newbie, I think the rules are that ye just have to label it as a spoiler, and ye won't get banned. Hope this helps!  :) Frodo 11011 10:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Scammer Era

This section has been removed twice now (I did it the first time, someone else did it the second time). I still think this isn't that notable, but given that at least one other person feels differently, what do others think? Here's what I removed.

"The Scammer Era"

In the year 2005, there were many scammers that stole meat from other characters. The greatedt of these scammers was "WheresWaldo," who scammed 34 million meat from unsuspecting users. He did it in a simple method, having Hell Ramen in his store at the mall and showing it at a very low price, and when people would see that price they would quickly try and buy it, and find that the price had been switched to over 1 million meat. Jick tried making it difficult for these scams but they persisted. Finally, WheresWaldo bought a golden Mr. Accessory and decided to quit. The citizens were troubled and angered over his reign of terror.

I removed it once. Price switching is a very common scammer tactic. Also, 34 million meat isn't actually that much. Searching the KoL wiki for "whereswaldo" shows only two results, neither of which relate to this scammer. Searching for "waldo scam" (by searching for "all terms", not "any or use query as entered") brings up no results. Scamming is a constant part of KoL, and I don't think 2005 was that much worse to be named as a particular era. Quentin mcalmott 01:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, I forgot to sign the original posting...that was me. :P WLGades 01:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I just removed it again, fwiw. It was added by User:Fortyniners9999 with a comment of "very important." Quentin mcalmott 06:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

To much info on food and booze?

I found this:

Users get 40 "adventures" per day. The number of adventures can be increased by consuming food and booze, but only until the player becomes too full or drunk to consume more.

(the previous entry)

A bit more encyclopedic than this:

Users get 40 "adventures" per day. The number of adventures can be increased by a few ways. Consuming food and booze will give the player between 1 and 29 additional adventures, depending on the type, until the player becomes too full or drunk to consume more. The skills "Stomach of Steel" and "Liver of Steel" allow the player to consume more food and booze before being too full or drunk. Various campground and clan items also give extra adventures.

(the current entry)

I'd undo it, but I'm a newb to Wikipedia, so I wanted to ask you Wikipedians, first.--Munkel (talk) 12:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's too much now too. The old way was a nice overview; the new edit goes into too many details. Quentin mcalmott 21:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I would definitely agree. Id the Mildly Confused 03:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. I kept a small mention of the campground items as well, but it's much less cumbersome than before.--Munkel (talk) 05:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed that entire part of that paragraph, as it was completely redundant with the description of adventures, food and booze that exists in the "Gameplay and Features" section. --Cornprone 03:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"Trading" section

So there's a section about trading that is mainly about how to trade gift items and how to use trustbot? Really? I think this section should be greatly shortened and rolled into the "player interaction" section. My only worry though is that the player interaction section is itself getting too large. Thoughts? --Cornprone 03:41, 13 April 2007

Future History category?

I added a category on future history, as i think it will become an important part of Kol's history. It will probably be edited as alot of it is still under wraps --Mrjingjing

I've removed it, wikipedia is not the place for unverifiable speculation (see Wikipedia is not a crystal ball). Although details of NS13 should be included when the changes have been made, there is currently no verifiable information as to when they will occur, and what will be changed. 'Future History' is an oxymoron anyway! Tdrawler 12:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it could be added back in a different way. Maybe 'Future plans' would be a better heading. As for sources, start with this kol wiki page and this forum page. To quote the first paragraph of the kol wiki:

NS13 is the current name for the planned major update to Kingdom of Loathing. It is the first step towards NS15, Jick's ultimate goal. NS13 will introduce completely new quests for levels eleven and twelve which will push the Naughty Sorceress Quest to level thirteen. In addition to the new quests and making ascensions longer it will introduce many new items.

Something to this effect could be included. -- hibou 08:10, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Ill just edit it when it comes out then :) mrjingjing

Actually, on a further note, couldnt it be included as a current event, as it is currently under construction?mrjingjing

As far as I know, it's currently in testing, and they might release it on Ascension's anniversary, June 9th. That being said, we've been expecting NS13 since LAST June, so I'd say it's not worth putting in quite yet.

There's now an announcement on the login page for KoL with a counter until NS13. 30 days to go, with details about the upcoming changes available: http://www4.kingdomofloathing.com/static.php?id=ns13 And yeah, that's real info, not their April fools stunt. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to include something brief about the stasis combat strategy in the history section, when stasis is finally gone (since the strategy is being destroyed with NS13). Stasis has long been an extremely controversial combat strategy, and I think many would see it as an important part of the history. However, it might not be appropriate for wikipedia, and it might be difficult to find sufficient references. There is a lot of info about stasis on KoL-related websites and forums other than the official forums, and there are some videos out there of stasis being used in combat. (and yes, I'm talking about sphere stasis, NOT NPZR-stasis). Brokenchairs 06:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

St. Sneaky Pete's Day

What about today. Its St. Sneaky Pete's Day. Something to add to the holiday section.Tailsfan2 12:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Community ... unless

Perhaps it might be worth mentioning that liking RuneScape is apparently a bannable offense. A friend of mine simple MENTIONED (note: did not advertise or provide links or anything, just mentioned) that she liked the game and she was banned after being mocked by mods.

If there is a lapse in community, especially a bigotry that could ruin KoL for a player, perhaps it should be mentioned.67.141.136.174 04:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but your personal grudges won't be mentioned. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 13:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how an experience that was not mine is therefore personal. I'm sorry you don't care about keeping future players from being driven off. Sorry I'm not elitist.71.29.21.220 19:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

How about this: Personal experiences in general. I couldn't give a rats-ass about past/current/future players - my concern here is that this article maintains the standards that all articles are expected to uphold. See WP:V and WP:ATT for the guideing policies in this case. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 22:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

All uncited comments in Community can be removed AFAIC. I would love to see more players join KoL as much as the next person, so maybe a description here that doesn't make KoL players sound like a bunch of pedantic wusses? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.217.217 (talk) 12:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

KoL, an AOL trademark?

Is there any need to mention that KoL is a trademark of AOL for their Kids on Line service and they have asked Asymmetric to review their usage of KoL it? How about how it affects KoL Radio? Waveclaw 01:52, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

(I moved this to the bottom of the talk page) I can't find any information, barring an old KoL forum thread about this, so unless we can find a source, and then deem it necessary, we can't put it in the article. Quentin mcalmott 22:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, If there was any news stories about it then sure... otherwise no need. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you consider recent radio shows a source? I think on the May 3rd one or somewhere in there they talked about it. But anyway, it's still pretty foggy, they don't even know if Kingdom of Loathing used KoL before AOL trademarked it, so at this point I don't think it's worth mentioning.

KOL radio - no... but like an ABCradio-News report then yeah... ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Death Gate Cycle References

This may be a shot in the dark, but in playing the game for just one day, I noticed two things that made me think of the book series Death Gate Cycle. First, the Genre of Radio KoL 64 is "Haplo's Ultimate Music Party". Haplo is the name of the main character in the DGC. Also, you can enhance your character by getting him tattoos, which is (in a way) a main part of the story in DGC. If anyone else has read DGC and played KoL for a while, could you verify anymore similarities. Hypernova2121 03:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Haplo is a notable player, and a DJ, so her name may be a reference to this Death Gate Cycle, but I know for a fact that the tattoos are not.--Therum 00:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The game has references all over the place to random stuff from pop culture, check out The KoL Wiki. The particular tattoo you choose to display doesn't enhance or detract from your character though, it merely shows you had the entirety of one outfit for long enough to talk to the artist, or, in the case of the martini tattoo, had a lot of martinis. --Sothicus 06:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

NS13?

Is anyone going to mention the soon to be updated site, including the new monsters, level requirements, etc??? 121.221.168.28 08:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The data given by the development team isn't specific enough to be added. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 12:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It also sounds like something for coldfront more then here. We can only give a general overview of the game within the context of how it touches the real world. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 17:21, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, now that plenty more is known, there can be additions. The Casual Ascension type was added, so I added the Bad Moon Ascension type. I had never made or edited an article before, so I didn't know what to cite, what to link, etc. Doctor it up, change it, do whatever you want, except removing it, because it does belong here if Casual does. 67.87.96.31 22:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Pink Thursday

Is it worth adding a section about Pink Thursday? (I think that is what it is called) It is another event in the kingdom

Mrjingjing 12:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Compared to Black Sunday or White Wednesday, it hasn't really had an effect on the game. It's really interesting to read about, but it's more a subject for a site about KoL's history, like something on coldfront. Quentin mcalmott 23:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Bad Moon mentioned repeatedly

Is it really necessary to mention in anything more than a passing note that Bad Moon is a zodiac sign, especially when it's mentioned in much more detail less than half a page up? --Sothicus 06:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This is true, but not just a passing note. It needs shortening, but still needs some information. Do what you can, if you wish. 67.87.96.67 19:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Done and done. --Sothicus 08:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Overzealous with "Citation Needed"

isn't needed when any person who is knowledgeable of the subject would not disagree or doubt it, and any other person can't find a reason to disbelieve it. For example, most experienced players know that "Player versus player (PvP) combat is voluntary, and only those who have broken their "Magical Mystical Hippy Stone" can attack or be attacked by other players." Those that don't have no reason to doubt it.

I've removed many of the tags and added a few of my own. --68.161.152.145 05:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I went a little overboard trying to replace the refimprove tag because a persistent vandal kept removing it. Thanks for the oversight :) --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 08:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

History Trim

Since neither User:Hq3473 or Ghost have brought it up on the talk page... I will. So... trim the history section? Remove it altogether? It is sort useless and crufty. Who knows... discuss! --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 03:00, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, if we start removing everything that isn't verifiable by what Wikipedia considers a "reliable source", there won't be much left besides a few snippets that were mentioned in various gaming magazine articles or interviews. (Since they don't consider other wikis to be reliable sources.)

That said, I agree that most of the History section is unnecessary -- it's only meaningful to actual players, anyway. Why don't we move all the in-game events to the KoL wiki (that aren't already there, anyway) and just leave the paragraph that says when it was released to the public? Assuming we can find a third-party reference to that date... -- CWesling 08:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Tuesday Updates

Jick said he suspended the Tuesday updates on his radio show on Nov 26, 2007. Could someone fill in the citation with a link to the recording?Oobyduby 16:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Trying to FA

I'm trying to bring this article to FA status, any suggestions? Cerebellum (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Bias to the point of vandalism

There's something fishy going on here. Has anyone looked at the "Mr. Accesory Conspiracy" section? It says (using exclamation marks a plenty) that the creater of the game is "lazy" and that you should not buy these items. Also, there are many other parts of the article that are horribly biased, one of which actually uses the word "crappy." I would fix it myself, but I am short on time and not very good at editing. --The F50 Man (talk) 03:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Just run of the mill vandalism recently added. As for the rest of the article that's another matter. --24.19.53.36 (talk) 03:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Jick and Mr. Skullhead

My recent edit made me wonder, why do they not have articles? They are the co-creators of an MMORPG that hundreds of thousands of people play, or have played. Surely that is notable, in and of itself. Both of them have been interviewed several times, and they do things other than this, since they are members of Asymetric Publications, which already has its own article. What are your thoughts on this? Mynameisnotpj (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suppose if you can dig up multiple references to reputable secondary sources, they would qualify as "notable". It's likely though that people would want to merge any such info into this article or the Asymmetric one instead of separate articles. --Cornprone (talk) 05:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Only notable for the game, and not as individuals themselves. --68.161.182.144 (talk) 17:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kingdom of Loathing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. Unfortunately, this article does not quite meet the Good article criteria. The vast majority of sources come from a wiki, which is generally not considered a reliable source per our policy. The article isn't fully broad; it covers gameplay, but there isn't really and information about reception or criticism of the game.

I'd be happy to take another look at the article when you've sorted out these issues; #2 and #3 on the GA criteria. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 23:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Hobopolis

New (giant) update in KoL includes a massive clan dungeon. There is limited player-to-player contact, which makes this the first time you can play "with" someone else. This should probably be noted, as this makes KoL multiplayer. 204.26.127.65 (talk) 04:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

AVG 8.0 SiteScan

To this artice's link on google, AVG sitescan idicates a risky link in the page.

Risky: This page contains the potential for active threat delivery.

Risk Category: Cracks site (link on page)

Risk Name: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/pb/117648256288713.htm

(5.08 seconds to scan this page)

Ratings are provided by AVG. Site owners please contact AVG Technologies for questions.

What should be done to remove this incorrect alert

Lol

Ur kiddin me right? --72.138.216.89 (talk) 22:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Please explain, or your post may be removed. NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 00:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

This cant be a real game..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.216.89 (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It's real. www.kingdomofloathing.com. Gavyn Sykes (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Too much information

I believe that this article has (quite) a bit too much information about gameplay. Compare with articles about other internet games, and you'll find that this article is too long. For example, do we need to include everything about the major events? CHL (aka yse) (talk) 09:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. I'd say cut the Comet, Holiday Events, Hobopolis, and maybe the Grey Plague, as they delve too much into the game. The rest seem significant enough. Ask Jick what he thinks the most significant history events are? NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 02:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that Black Sunday, White wednesday, Comet, Holiday Events and the Grey Plague, they're interesting but I don't think that they should be explained here as there not really that important in the long run. Hobopolis, NS13 and Ascension should all be left though as they all had a major and LASTING effect on the game, the others didn't really. --Danie Tei (talk) 14:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Black Sunday and White Wednesday had a lasting effect on the game for several months at the very least. Those should be included. I'm going to cut a few; see what you think.the Comet. What else would you cut? NuclearWarfare ^{contact me}_{My work} 19:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I cut the gray plague, but I do think the rollout of clan dungeons deserves at least a mention in the history. I still think white wednesday needs to be cut as while it was important when it happened only one of the rifts remain so I dont think it had enough of a lasting effect. I think Black Sunday should be at least cut down and some of it moved to gameplay as both the raffle house and frequent meatsinks are used, but Black Sunday wasn't an offical event so I don't think it should be mentioned —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danie Tei (talk • contribs) 03:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Reviews

Here are all the reviews about KoL I've managed to find, If anyone could tell me which can be used as reliable sources:

• http://www.sniderware.com/blog/2004/10/kingdom-of-loathing-review.html
• http://www.escmag.com/v5/reviews/review.cfm?rv=415
• http://www.pibweb.com/review/kol.html
• http://dbs.homeport.org/archives/000238.html
• http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_161/5112-Stumbling-Into-the-Kingdom-of-Loathing
• http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1362
• http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=132293

If anyone finds any other reviews please add links, we need to get a reception section.
--Danie Tei (talk) 16:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)