Talk:Portuguese language

For past discussions, see: /archive1, /archive2, /archive3

Problem of "Adeus" and "tchau"

I constatly put in the article that the use of "Adeus" can be seen has offensive. And all In my life, i only heard this word when someone doesnt like someone else. And people say "Adeus!" to them (meaning: I dont want to see you no longer). I use it with the same meaning. In fact, the use of "tchau" is more aprreciated by Portuguese people. I attested that when a british in Portugal said "tchau"; everyone was astonished with the man saying "at least this one tries to speak Portuguese". Almost noone uses, normally, the word "Adeus" because it is offensive. Everyone uses daily "tchau". It is obvious that the word "Adeus" can have better meanings. -Pedro 11:03, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I am an American-born son of natives of Serra do Bouro, Caldas da Rainha. I have always used adeus to mean good-bye, and 'tchau' (which seems derived from the Italian ciao) seems like Brazilian usage to me. Perhaps things have changed since my parents lived in Potugal. Nelson Ricardo 17:07, Aug 1, 2004 (UTC)

• • Yes. "Ciao" is hello in Italian and “tchau” is derived from it. "Adeus" is linked with immigrants. Many believe that when people were departing to immigrate to other countries, people used "Adeus" thinking they would return, but they never returned. So the word started to mean “goodbye forever”. When Brazilian soap operas started transmitting in Portuguese TV the word “tchau “ was used, influenced by Italians there, possibly. So people in Portugal started using it, because it means “see you later” or something similar, but not goodbye forever what mostly Adeus now means. But it really depends on the tone that a person talks. -Pedro 22:42, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• • • FWIW, I'm from Lisbon and I have to add that this is a non-issue. Although "Adeus" can be used in a dismissive way, so can "tchau" and this isn't portuguese-specific. You can see americans doing it on TV all the time. FYI, I use "Adeus" on a daily basis and no one was ever offended. - Jorge Lima
      • you're wright. --Pedro 13:05, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The discussion about adeus and tchau reflects diferences between Brazilian and European Portuguese. In Brazil, when someone says "adeus" in a colloquial conversation, he expects (or hopes) not to see the other person again.-Mauro1

• No it doesnt. It is quit the same. Read the conversation bellow. -Pedro 20:22, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

PedroPVZ, do you still not realise that however much you insist, BP and EP will never be the same? you make some claims as if they were valid for both brazil and portugal just because you think/WANT them to be the same for both. what Mauro1 said is true, adeus in brazil is only used (if ever used) when you do not expect to see someone [ever] again. and even so, the word has a quite archaic feeling attached to it, and is generally not used in brazil. Vbs 08:45, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What to do with Galician?

Most Linguists (but some do not agree) say Portuguese and Galician are the same language - there are even dialectal maps. But politically they are separated languages, with very different ortography, w/strong spanish influence in sounds and lexicon, especially in the cities. Instituto Camões(organization of the Portuguese language, studying it) does not comment about Galicia. How should we treat this language in the article in order to be Neutral? Ethnologue is ambiguous in this, including it has a Portuguese dialect or as a language. The government of Galicia itself is ambiguous. -Pedro 11:02, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Catalan Portuguese

but by the 14th century Portuguese had become a mature language with a rich literary tradition, becoming a popular language for poetry in Iberia, adopted by many Leonese, Castilian, Aragonese and Catalan poets.

Probably this belongs more to Galician-Portuguese, but I doubt that there was significant activity in Galician-Portuguese in Aragon and Catalonia. They already had Occitan as a poetry language! Can you cite some examples? -- Error

• Nops, the language was understood has Portuguese then (at least since 1290) - that is 13th century. Galician-Portuguese is a modern denomination for a common language. BTW Galician-Portuguese is understood has Old Portuguese.

Com efeito, o galego-português, língua falada, com pequenas diferenças, no noroeste da Península Ibérica, aquém e além do rio Minho, tornou-se, até cerca de 1350, a língua literária de toda a Peninsula, pois foi o idioma adoptado pelos poetas leoneses, castelhanos, aragoneses, catalães e, naturalmente, também pelos galegos e portugueses, perdurando isoladamente até cerca de 1450, data aproximada da sua substituição pelo castelhano. - Maria Ema T. Ferreira (Portuguese Romance Philologist) - If you dont understand I'll translate, about names that's the hardest thing, I know many names (many not tipical of Portugal nor Galicia), but were they were from, i dont know. -Pedro 01:25, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Barbarians

As each barbarian tribe spoke Latin in a different way, the uniformity of the Peninsula was soon disrupted, leading to the formation of well-differentiated languages (Portuguese-Galician, Spanish and Catalan).

Is that a mainstream theory? I understand that the influence of Barbarians may be limited to some words and maybe opening or closing communications among certain areas. The number of Barbarians was too low to impose their patterns on the Ibero-Romans. -- Error

• I dont know, but yes it is a theory. Do you know a better hypotisis? I'm thinking and I'm starting to agree with you. I read in some places that it is just a temporal and natural alteration of Spoken Latin. What do you think? But, remember, the Barbarians became kings and rulled Iberia. But they were seen has barbarian and they adopted Latin culture and language. Why There was formed 3 different languages then? And for what I've seen of Spanish, it was even in the middle Ages very different from Portuguese, although much more similar than today. It is better to change the article. -Pedro 01:32, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Only Galician MEP

The only Galician deputy in the European Union Parliament, Camilo Nogueira, speaks in Portuguese

Is he the only Galician MEP or just the only Galician nationalist MEP? -- Error 00:31, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• If there are Galicians in other parties, you're correct! -Pedro 10:39, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

the 3 missing sounds

I've changed the sounds section. The article still misses three sounds: b, g and d between vowels (not very clear info about these sounds to be systematic and standarized). I dont know if I should put the diphtongs in the article. -Pedro 23:06, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alterations in the article

someone added info about Galicia in the article. Possibly a Galician (because of some of the added info). Should I delete it or place it in some specific area of the article? BTW I dont believe that 100% of people in Galicia speaks Galician. It is a very high number, but not 100%. And if it should continue in the table it should go with a notice.-Pedro 19:25, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lusitanic Romance

Are you sure that the Romance from Galicia and N Portugal is called Lusitanic Romance? Lusitania is more Southwards than that. Do we have maps? -- Error 23:04, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Yups thats the name. The Callicians (like many others) also adopted the name "lusitanian" when the Romans conquered the area during the Lusitanian war. That is also the named used when studying Portuguese lang. History.-Pedro 23:51, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Arabic loans

But there is no loan word in lexicon related to human feelings, all remaining of Latin origin

Isn't alboroço a Portuguese word? --- Error 23:08, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Yes, it means confusion, fight. What that has to do with feelings? -Pedro 23:58, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Alborozo in Spanish means "happiness", "joy". "Confusion" would be alboroto. But I checked a dictionary and while the Portuguese word is cognate of one of them (the dictionary is confusing), it doesn't seem to have evolved in the same way. I checked the Spanish al- words and there are no "feelings" words but for alborozo. Interesting. -- Error 00:28, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

portuguese domination on wikipedia

this discussion started here. some related discussions have also been going on here.

i just had to get this off my chest. i've been away for a while and realise now that things seem to be getting worse. PedroPVZ just can't help himself. oh yes, he is a two-face indeed. he posts flames and insults, and deletes them as soon as the addressee has read them. later, he writes flowery posts to try and keep his image clean. in that way i guess he has really succeeded, cos by doing so he has made it virtually impossible to find all the compromising posts he might have written. also, he disrupted the chronological order of the posts, making it look like he'd written some "nice things" before i had posted criticisms to him, which can fool people into thinking that some things i wrote were not necessary (as nobody checks the timestamps anyway even though they're in most signatures). not to mention his "NPOV" reverts/deletions, which is when someone posts something he doesn't like and/or he wants to hide, and so he deletes the contributions claiming "NPOV". now, as "NPOV" reverts seems to have become slightly outdated after i first pointed it out, he became doing something more serious, which is "vandalism" reverts/deletions. that's right, as you guessed it, he will delete things he doesn't like and claim "vandalism", and as most people assume "vandalism" really means vandalism, they alsmost never bother to see what was the "vandalism" (they might check the particular version changes if it's been marked as "NPOV", but not as "vandalism"). a recent example of "vandalism" deletion is here (more details on the brazilian portuguese talk page). only now i realise PedroPVZ knows a lot less about brazilian portguese (BP) than i expected and that PedroPVZ's knowledge of BP is seriously questionable. i'm saying this after just having read his claim in the BP article (this claim was actually added a while ago but i only noticed it after someone deleted it and PedroPVZ readded it) that "vou convosco" is "standard" in brazil and "vou com vocês" is "vernacular". that is just plain absurd!! just ask any brazilian! as i mentioned on the BP talk page, not even the most purist brazilian would claim "convosco" is standard, that's something you will only get in the bible!!!!! PedroPVZ writes things that he thinks are the same or WANTS THEM TO BE THE SAME in both brazil and portugal without actually knowing it's the case. one example is the problem with "adeus" and "tchau". he first tried to claim "adeus" was an "offensive" term in both portugal and brazil but declined after many portuguese people pointed it wasn't true. the word "adeus" (not that commonly used in brazil) is not exactly offensive in BP, but has a strong meaning similar to the english "farewell" and that's probably what PedroPVZ meant originally, in an attempt to unify BP and EP. then, as some brazilian guy later posted explaining what it meant in brazil, PedroPVZ came again, this time claiming that "adeus" isn't a strong word after all, and that "It is quit the same". this rambling isn't finished yet! PedroPVZ claims all websites in english about BP are wrong (in his own [deleted] words "stupid", "crazzy", "nationalist" and "anti-brazilian", etc <-- the last two adjectives sometimes even come close together!). it's obviously clear that since it's so difficult for PedroPVZ to try and hide the existence of such websites having content he dreads so much, that the only thing he can do is claim everything in english not written by himself is wrong. that's also why he claims the whole message boards of brazzil.com are wrong/"questionable", because unlike here in wikipedia, where he deletes everything he doesn't-like/wants-to-hide, he can't do that in a public message board, where people post whatever they like and everyone else is free to read. AT THE MOMENT: i have made some small edits in both the "Portuguese language" and "Brazilian Portuguese" articles, and i wish i could do it more often and also had enough strength to argue with this kind of people. it's very hard when someone dominates articles like this and nobody else is allowed to contribute to it, but i realise i am not completely alone and there are some people like 195.29.131.90 (i wish they were registered) also trying to stop this domination. CONCLUSION: PedroPVZ is a brazilian wannabe, but that probably cannot be helped. Vbs 12:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

did anyone see this??!!

"Written varieties - revert lusophobic and fake edit. If there were real linguists agreeing with that, we could consider putting that in the article."

PedroPVZ is out of control!! it's virtually impossible add anything to the article without going through an edit fight with him. the information i added (as i hope who's reading this has checked) was that "Although Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese are generally cosidered to be dialects of the same language, there are those who disagree [1]". that doesn't in any way assert or claim that BP is a separate language, but only that some people believe it could be, something PedroPVZ strongly disagrees and so PedroPVZ simply wants to hide the existence of such people!!!!! and yes PedroPVZ, if you read the article that i pointed, you will see it was indeed written by a brazilian linguist!. besides, PedroPVZ's claim that "The differences are somewhat less than those between American English and British English" is at least strongly disputed if not plain biased, as there has been shown so many obvious differences even in basic words such as "you" and "good bye". for the latter word, hasn't anyone realised what PedroPVZ did?? he decided himself to abandon the real meaning of the word "adeus" in his own native dialect/language just to be able to claim it meant the same thing in both brazil and portugal!!! and some time ago, the american linguist Steven Roger Fischer (the guy who cracked the easter island scripts), in an interview to Veja (one of brazil's most important journalistic magazines), said BP is strongly influenced by spanish, and that the differences between BP and EP are bigger than those between american english (AE) and british english (BE). he also said that BP and EP are getting further and further appart, and that the opposite is happening to AE and BE. I KNOW WELL WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN!! anyone strong enough to try and fight (probably alone) against PedroPVZ will probably end up in a silly edit fight and then perhaps some third party will decide to lock the article obviously leaving PedroPVZ happy, since his biased claims have already infested everything, and so nobody would be able to change "his" article. Vbs 09:11, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE!! what PedroPVZ is doing is really serious please have a look at this! i tried editing the article again, but PedroPVZ keeps reverting it! Vbs 10:11, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

PedroPVZ has no limits whatsoever!! now he wants an edit war even over a "disputed" template!!!!! Vbs 15:55, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC) fortunatelly, the edit war over the "disputed" template stopped quickly after somebody else interfered. Vbs 12:25, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

for anyone reading this, a couple of the links i had posted were pointing to wrong edits, but i've corrected them now. Vbs 12:40, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I haven't been involved at all in this discussion/article, but after my poking around into the histories involved, it looks like PedroPVZ has been acting inappropriately for Wikipedia. PedroPVZ, please remember that Wikipedia is a communal effort, and that neither these articles nor these topics are yours. You do have a number of good contributions to Wikipedia, and that's a wonderful thing, but please try to play nicer with others and especially avoid personal attacks. --Improv 23:17, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

American and British--just not true

The statement "The differences are somewhat less than those between American English and British English" is not backed up by any sources that I know of. "Somewhat" means a lot and the statement is not confirmed by reality. British and American English have few syntactic differences (placement or use of pronouns, use of verb tenses etc.), some lexical differences recognized by most speakers, and some phonetical differences, based on regions (Scotland, Ireland, Liverpool, Birmingham, East London, Southern American, Black American English etc.). The problem is one of contact. English and Americans are in great contact with each other by way of travelling, mass media, and mutual reading of literature. Such is not the case with Brazil and Portugal. While Portuguese have been exposed to the Brazilian accent through music, soap operas, artistic performers, commercials on television, and Brazilian immigrants, the opposite is not true. Few Brazilians have ever heard a Portuguese person speak, fewer have seen a Portugese film or TV program, and even fewer have read Portuguese literature (Curiously, in Portugal a tiny percentage of the population has read anything from Brazil, a country of 175 million people). In conclusion, the two varieties might not be that different in their essence, but lack of contact with one or the other makes them appear very different and creates problems of communication.

Ray Vogensen

P.S. Please keep any disagreeing comments to the above on an educated level with valid arguments. I.E. no insults like "velho caduco" or "fulano nem sabe falar português".

• Good point. The fact, is that an American linguist (researching in Brazil) said that were less, I put the "somewhat" to be a bit NPOV. That is due to the phonetic structure of American and Brittish English, both are very free from the written language, unlike Portuguese. Portuguese dialects and variants have a very wide pronunciation on certain vowels: A, E and O. But almost the same on I and U (not allways!!). Portuguese dialects have also different approches in diacritic sounds and that's it.

Allthough there are few good sources on the net, I found this: http://www.linguist.de/reese/intonation-brief.html The most unified international language would be Spanish, in my oppinion and the most diversified German. -Pedro 00:27, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Ray, problem of communication between Portuguese and Brazilians? Are you saying that they do not uderstand or they think some word is odd? I really doubt that any Brazilian and any Portuguese do not understand a written text from the other country, but they see an use has odd, but understand it fully. Brazilians grow up reading Fernando Pessoa. -Pedro 02:09, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

understanding written texts doesn't necessarily prove anything. if that was the case why isn't spanish treated as a dialect of portuguese then? actually, there are even brazilians like me who have less trouble understanding spoken spanish than spoken iberian portuguese. and did you know brazilian portuguese is strongly syllable timed (as spanish is), while european portuguese is strongly stress timed? that is a very significant difference between BP and EP. another thing is, while some brazilian/portuguese people might not have too much difficulty understanding spanish speakers, the opposite is not true. spanish pronunciation is kind of "simple" (note the QUOTES), but both BP or EP have a lot of complicated stuff (nasals, less consistent spelling, etc) which makes them quite hard for spanish speakers to understand. in a similar way, just because EP speakers can understand BP speakers, it simply doesn't mean that the opposite is true. and did you know that not too long ago, before a spelling reform, spanish used to be even more similar to "portuguese"? it used to have double esses and cedillas, for example. this shows that similarities in written texts are not necessarily the best proof of similarities between languages. some portuguese books brazilian kids have to read in school can be quite hard to follow without the aid of a dictionary. besides, i have also made reference to a recognised linguist (Steven Roger Fischer), who said the differences are bigger than those between BE and AE. nobody should have to deppend on "PedroPVZ's kind permission" to make changes to the article, that's pretty outraging. Vbs 10:49, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am from Brazil, and I think I can say with enough safety that it's pretty obvious for everyone here (people that speak those languages) that the differences between the Brazilian Portuguese and the European Portuguese are far larger than the differences between the American English and the British English. You see, just think of all those sites and computer programs where you can choose different languages for the interface (Google, for instance). What are you most likely to find? A way of switching between BP and EP, or a way of switching between American English and British English?

Weird example, I know, but those two kinds of Portuguese are "almost" treated like different things. Sure, it's still the same language (despite all the crazy people that say they aren't), and I believe most Portuguese speakers are able to understand the opposite version without much trouble (both reading and talking). I do know not everybody can understand, and a lot of people have problems with it, but both versions are very, very close. However, they're not as close as those two kinds of English. I think that what the dude who posted the first comment said is very much true. It's hard to make non-Portuguese speakers understand this (and sometimes, European Portuguese speakers as well, it seems), but I don't think I'm being far-fetched with this.

For that matter, I do wonder why that small comment was added to the article. I can't see anything to back up that theory. – Kaonashi 23:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Statements not based on any research

This section has serious problems: "Tourists in Portugal trying to communicate with the locals in Spanish are understood but may seem very offensive. French or English should be preferred in Portugal (because they are the two foreign languages taught in Portuguese schools — most people under 40 speak one of them well), if not speaking Portuguese. However, the same does not normally happen in Brazil, and many Brazilians feel extremely excited just for having the opportunity to communicate with people from different countries, something most Brazilians do not have a chance to do."

If you speak Spanish in Portugal anywhere near the border to a person who cannot speak either English or French, or German etc, you would be well received, much more than if you tried to speak in English or French, which few people would undestand. What is important is to communicate. I doubt if French or English are preferred. True they are taught, or at least English is taught to a certain extent, but students rarely reach the level of being able to understand a foreigner in one or the other language. Remember that less than 50 % of Portuguese students even reach the end of secondary school and fewer than that can speak a foreign language. Speaking a foreign language is very subjective and can only be measured by internationally recognized exams like the Cambridge First Certificate. Therefore statement "most people under 40 speak one of them well" is false.

I don't know if Brazilians get excited about having the opportunity of communicating with people from different countries, as such emotions would be hard to measure, but surely few Brazilians speak a foreign language (I was a teacher there for 20 years in Brasilia). The issue is so subjective that I would eliminate it from the article.

• Agree! But It is true that most can be handy in French or English. French is known not because it is only taught, my father speaks it and he never learned it in School. French is (or was) a prestigious language. Remember, Portugal does not dub any language (subtitles is used, because most people want to hear the actors and the real sounds), except for Children (even in here, there are exceptions), Portuguese people are exposed to English in films. I think most Portuguese are not good in English, but an English person will have no difficulty in Portugal. Has for your doubt if English and French are preferred is very strange! Of course these languages are the preferred ones (undoubtly!), and the only ones, that people like and learn. Often parents want their children to learn French, while kids want to learn English. Some parents want them to know German (the 3rd learned language in Portugal), a very usefull language, but underestimated.-Pedro 01:47, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We can agree that Portuguese are exposed to films and TV programs spoken in the original, but it is debatable whether more people speak English or French here than in other European countries. I have NO doubt that English and French are the preferred languages if someone does indeed speak a foreign language, since not many people in Portugal speak German, Dutch, Italian, Swedish, Danish, or Flemish. All I am saying is that if a Polish person visiting here manages to convey his message in Spanish I think that he would be welcome. Better Spanish than Polish I would think. But then maybe I am biased having done Spanish at university. That is why I could never understand the anti-Spanish sentiment on the agal forum because I loved the language and spoke it well until I moved to Brazil. RV

i was the one who added that "many Brazilians feel extremely excited...", before the article used to read "Tourists in Portugal and Brazil trying to communicate... offensive.", which certanly isn't true. i am quite confident about what i wrote. most brazilians do not have the opportunity ($$$) to ever leave the country in their whole lifes, and are kind of isolated. so when they meet a foreigner, many do feel really excited. that's probably why foreigners generally feel so welcome in brazil. some people will feel excited even just to talk to other brazilians who have travelled to other countries. as a brazilian myself, i would say that is the behaviour of a lot of brazilians. and spanish certainly isn't offensive for most people, and nowadays people are increasingly being taught spanish in schools, even in state schools, because of the mercosul, etc. Vbs 11:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Fortunnaly, you're not representative of the big majority of Brazilians, VBS -RonaldoBr 19:52, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm well aware of all the care we must take when adding this kind of info, and perhaps it was indeed a bad idea regardless of truth, but as a Brazilian, I do understand what Vbs says. It's not only him. Here, it's almost common sense that foreigners are very well treated, despite of where they come from. I'm not sure about Brazilians being "excited" to meet foreigners or not (I know I always am, though), but it's true this country is pretty much isolated from the rest of the world, in many aspects. It's true most people don't have means of travelling abroad and meeting new cultures, but just pay attention to geography. Brazil is close to dozens of other Latin countries, but it doesn't share its language with none of them. It's the only Portuguese speaking country in the whole America. I know both languages (Spanish and Portuguese) are very similar, but the barrier is still strong enough to prevent a lot of contact between people from said countries.

About other languages sounding "offensive", I don't know about Portugal (but if I had to take a guess, I'd say that's terribly wrong, and there's no offense), but I'm pretty sure nobody here would take foreign people talking to them as something "offensive". People here generally see that kind of thing as "someone trying to communicate with them" (which is exactly what it is), so they'll usually do their best to understand, to be understood, and to help. I know any attempt on this would be a big generalization, but this is what I feel from living here.

So yeah. My two cents. – Kaonashi 23:47, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Example given only valid for European Portuguese

There are problems with the following: "In particular, when constructing a future tense or conditional tense expression involving an indirect object pronoun, the pronoun is placed between the verb stem and the verb ending. For example, Dupondt said trazer-vos-emos o vosso ceptro. Translating as literally as possible, this is "bring (stem)-to you (formal)-we (future) the your scepter". In English we would say, "We will bring you your scepter." The form Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro. is also correct, used mainly in spoken Portuguese, while the first form is prefered for written Portuguese"

The problem with all of this is that in Brazil, a land of over 175 million speakers of Portuguese, it would be rare indeed to find someone who would write the above. He would be ridiculed and seen as pompous or someone living in a world long gone from the Brazilian reality. The forms above, spoken or written, are just not used, period. Vós hasn´t been used since Cabral. When we speak of Portuguese we must differentiate between the two varieties. No one in Brazil says or writes, "ele deu-mo" or "vi-o". The common form in speech is "ele me deu" and "vi ele". A more educated person might say "eu o vi" but the use of the subject pronoun after the verb has become so common that many descriptive Brazilian linguists accept it as the standard form. In Portugal it would be considered incorrect.

RV

• RV, you're not correct. Brazilians often say "Ele me deu", most Brazilian are teached "Ele deu-me" often used by upper class Brazilians - a similar problem occurs in Portugal in other situations (but this issue occurs more in Brazil "Ele me deu" is also very common in Portugal). I usually talk to Brazilians from the Northeast, and some of them (I usually talk to mid-class) use "vós" more than I do (but they use vós not to a group, but to a single person, an that use has fallen into disusse- And I never used it. In Portugal, Vós is also fewly used, unfortunnately (even in Northern Portugal, the region that still uses it a lot) - the South doesnt use it much like Brazil. This is due to prestige of "vocês" and difficulty in conjugation of the "vós" - the hardest in Portuguese. -Pedro 01:37, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pedro, I didn't say that Brazilians DIDN'T use "ele me deu". I said that the COMMON form was "ele me deu". Just the opposite. Of course many educated Brazilians do. I am only pointing out that the example of the placement of the pronoun ex. falar-lhe-ei is only valid for formal Continental Portuguese. Brazilians would not even know how to do it. I am not sure if it is even taught at school. Concerning the use of vós, I had never heard it used by one Brazilian in twenty years of Brasil and I was surrounded by nordestinos who had gone to Brasilia to work. It would be interesting to get feedback from Brazilians on this.

• That use of "vós" i found in Pernambuco/Recife. Also remember that Brazilians are also teached how to use the "vós" in School (the "vós" for a single person is equivaletn with "thy" in English.You misslead me in something. Just a correction: "ele me deu" is correct in many cases, e.g. "porque ele me deu" and you should never use "porque ele deu-me". wrong Portuguese in Brasil is "Me deu", and, almost never used in Portugal. Starting a phrase with "ME" or "ti", etc... is considered incorrect, even if "many" (mostly undereducated) in Brazil do it. e.g.: "Me dá um cigarro" insted of "Dá-me um cigarro". "falar-lhe-ei" is correct in Brazilian Portuguese, more fewly used than in Portugal, but still prestigious Portuguese (seem has a something odd just like in Portugal) and taught. We must have in mind also, the big gap between the higher Brazilian society and the lowest. Cultivated Brazilian Portuguese is very similar to the European, a thing that many forget and keep allways comparing Cultivated EP with vernacular BP. You are confusing both. When you deal with the vernacular, in Portugal you should deal also with its vernacular. There are some Brazilians in PT wikipedia that are interrest in language affairs. -Pedro 10:26, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

ray is correct, many of these forms are simply inexistant in BP. i have never heard "falar-lhe-ei" in my whole life. PedroPVZ has misconceptions that the european forms are the standard in brazil, which simply isn't true. not even extremely posh people would use "falar-lhe-ei", i wonder if any brazilian would even be capable of doing these kind of forms, and i can't even remember being taught these forms either, even though much of what we are taught in school is indeed heavily based on european portuguese. for example, we are taught many verb forms, conjugations, etc, that sound extremely archaic to us, but i guess it's a bit like learning latin. most kids don't like it, although they can generaly remember some of the stuff when they grow older. that's probably why written portuguese texts are not that difficult to understand for brazilians. however, the way more "educated" or "posh" speakers talk, is more defined in their accent and in the choice of words, rather than being based on archaic grammar rules. after all, they have to be understood. concerning the use of "vós", i have never heard it being used at all in real life or on tv, and although there is technically a small chance that some regional dialect might still use it, i have never heard of that. it is true that "tú", although not the standard, still exists in some regions, but even "tú" is not used as in portugal, and the verb is conjugated like it conjugates for "você". Vbs 12:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Archaic? LOL. Maybe you never went to school ;) Maybe you arent Brazilian afteer all. The use of "tu" in Brazil although incorrectly used by young people is seen has very "cool", neveer archaic. It ssems VBS is speaking for all Brazilians. -RonaldoBr 19:55, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
• BTW, I loved the idea of European Portuguese seeming Latin. Eheh. Vbs get a life, will you? -RonaldoBr 19:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like I'll have to clear up a couple of things here. We're mainly dealing with three examples here: The "falar-lhe-ei" kind of conjugation, "vós" and "tu". First of all, Brazilians DO learn those things at school. I can't speak for the whole lot, since I've studied my entire life in the same school, and it was a private one. However, I'm pretty sure everybody learns those things, whether for good or not. The "falar-lhe-ei" thing is ALMOST NEVER USED, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE HELL YOU ARE IN BRAZIL. There's no game, you can't deny that. It doesn't matter if you're a high class, top society "burguês". If you say that, it's like you're writing "PRETENTIOUS" in your forehead. No, better. Big, flashing, neon lights.

We are taught how to use that in school, but that's just because the Brazilian Portuguese is still heavily connected to an archaic, European Portuguese system. This bothers a countless number of people, but it's not like we can do anything. The old guys on the fancy chairs in charge of dictating the grammar rules for the Brazilian Portuguese are either too lazy or too afraid to change anything and aim for something more modern (and more Brazilian). Thing is, that ain't used. Nobody does. It was used in the past, but today it's just dead. It is correct, but it's pretty much extinct in terms of use.

"Vós" and "tu". Those are the personal pronouns for the second person, for plural and singular, respectively. What happens is, they are no longer largely used. We still see people using "tu" a lot, like in the south. It's just normal for people like them, and it doesn't really bother no one. Here in São Paulo, people are most likely to not see that kind of thing, but since this is the big metropolis, things usually get more mixed. About "vós", it's even less used. I really can't remember the last time I heard that here. Also, Pedro is probably thinking of "vos", as in "vos encontrei aqui", and not "vós", as in "vós sois muito simpáticos". I might be wrong here, but I think those things are different. While it's not THAT hard to see the first form being used here, you'll have to be a pretty lucky guy to hear the last one, unless the person is joking/mocking that manner of speaking.

Those two pronoums fell in disuse for a reason I'm not sure of. "Você" and "vocês" are more common today, throughout the entire Brazil (for comparative means). Those new pronoums are pretty weird, since "tu", for instance, has characteristics of third person pronoums, and yet it is used as a second person pronoum. I'm not sure of how grammatically correct that is, but something's for sure: Those are much more used than "tu/vós" will ever be.

Concluding, what the original poster said is very much correct. You might think all those "posh" forms are freely used by the certain "Brazilian elite" you're talking about. However, that is not true. People generally aim for naturalness, not artificiality. It doesn't matter who you are: If you get too heavy on the lingo, you'll be mocked to no end. Sure, some people do talk the talk, and that happens for a lot of reasons I don't need to mention here, but you won't see people crossing the borderline and going all "Onde estão minhas chaves? Pensei tê-las guardado em minhas algibeiras. Como levá-la-ei para o baile agora?". Lighten up, peeps.

Also, I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about, Ronaldo. That guy said those things SOUND archaic. That's a hell lot different, you know. And we do believe those things are way too distant from our reality, hence pointless. It's pretty much archaic for us, yes. About "tu", I don't know if the kids like that and find it "trendy" or whatever. All I know is that it's being forgotten. If it's being forgotten, it's getting old. If it's getting old, it's one step closer to be seen as "archaic". I think it's you who are not Brazilian, after all. The "Br" on your name might be enough for most people... but I ain't so sure. And if you are... you should pay a little more attention to things. Stand up for your country. Make us proud. – Kaonashi 02:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

quote: "is seen has very 'cool', neveer archaic"

hahaha, this post by newly registered (yesterday!) "RonaldoBr" is EXTREMELY funny!! anybody see anything familiar in it? Vbs 08:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Debatable statistics on Portuguese in Galicia

According to the article Portuguese is spoken in Spain (Galicia) by 2.9 million. That number should refer to the total population of the Autonomous Region and not the number of speakers. According to Instituto da Lingua Galega in 1991 88% spoke Galego. According to Galego.org 86.7 could speak. These numbers are based on what people answer when asked if they can speak, write, read, and understand. There are many galegos, especially in urban centers like Vigo, La Corunha, and El Ferrol that do not speak Galego.

There is also a lot of controversy about whether Galego is a variant of Portuguese--like Brazilian Portuguese--or is in fact a separate language. According to Galego.org, "Galician is "Galicia's own language" and "Nowadays Galician is spoken by more than 3 million people, both in Galicia and its borderings (occident of Asturias, León and Zamora) and in several countries where Galician people emigrated". If it is a separate language then the number of Portuguese speakers in Galicia is minimal. The article should not state categorically that Galego is the same as Portuguese. It is not. In fact most Portuguese speakers, on hearing a galego speaking in his language, will think that he is listening to a Spanish speaker.

RV

• I agree. The fact, is that was putted in the article, by a Galician. I think all info about Galician should be under the same area of the article. But some Galician dialects do not seem any closer to Spanish, nether to Portuguese hears (maybe to southern Portuguese) - many "good" linguists classify Galician has being a Portuguese dialect. But Historically it does not derive from it (so here is a point of great controversy), so it has a language/ dialect code and are officially undesrtood (by the government of Galicia) has very close languages. Plus, it has a big number of External (Spanish) influence. Read www.agal-gz.org they write in Galician Portuguese a "variant" of Portuguese used in some Galician Universities. But if you read Galician, you'll will see the structure of the Portuguese language in a different code, please read www.bng-gz.org (nationalist Galician party) , that I believe supports Galician has a separate language. Cheers -Pedro 00:17, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have looked at all the sites you mentioned. I personally see Galician as a separate language--at least the Galician as it is spoken and written today. The Reintegracionistas and the Lusistas who appear frequently on the www.agal-gz.org forum don't agree because many of them detest the Castillian speaking part of Spain, including the central government, and want an independent Galicia. Some want to unite with the north of Portugal. They think that by fighting for the inclusion of Galician in the Portuguese language family they will be able to save their language from disappearing and keep it from being considered a dialect of Castillian, a language which some of these more radical Galeguistas even detest. It is a very controversial issue and it is all connected to nationalism and anti-Spanish sentiments. Most Galicians go on speaking their heavily Castillian influenced "castrapo" and see themselves as Spanish from Galicia. I doubt if many of them would accept that they are speaking Portuguese. RV

• As I said, Portugal did not take the languagee to Galicia, it "allways" existed there. So if that is Portuguese has the name "Portuguese" you can be correct, but the language structure is too close. There are Galicians speaking "Castrapo", there are some who dont, I knew one and he found really offensive if I call him "Spanish", but I know also, a Galician that prefers to be called "Spanish" rather than Galician. In the past, Northern Portugal and today's Galicia where the former Kingdom of Galicia. And Galician (galego) is still a symnoum of the Portuguese people. This is maybe the reason. I dont know if that "Galeguistas" are representative or not of the Galician society. -Pedro 10:45, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ella hecha siempre la ventana antes de yantar

Ella hecha siempre la ventana antes de yantar. (less common Spanish)

I can't connect to RAE now, but I doubt that hechar is a Spanish word. Echar el cierre means "to close" but Portuguese fechar and Spanish echar are not cognates. -- Error 01:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• That was someone that changed it. Please correct. -Pedro 13:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)